"Get FISA Right" myBO group: how best to make use of the next 12 hours?

by: JonPincus

Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 23:27


( - promoted by tremayne)

Hopefully everybody has seen the update that the statement from the Obama campaign is now expected tomorrow morning.   Let's assume that it comes out at noon.  

How best to make use of the time between now and then?

One important thing to do is to redouble our recruiting efforts.  Because it's the day before a holiday weekend, it's likely that things will be reallllll slooooooowwwwwwwww ... what can we do to attract more people?  It's a good time to hit the social bookmark sites like digg and reddit -- the group's main page is still only at 150 diggs, which looks kind of paltry next to the 2000+ on Steve Elliot's post.  More on the wiki under "social bookmarking"*

And if you're on Facebook, please see Getting the word out on Facebook

What else should we be doing?  Unsurprisingly I have a few ideas (so expect some more email from me on the list later tonight :-) ) but I'm sure that these are only the tip of the iceberg.

Suggestions?

jon

* there seems to be a bizarre bug in the HTML engine here and so I can't put in a link, sorry

JonPincus :: "Get FISA Right" myBO group: how best to make use of the next 12 hours?

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"Get FISA Right" myBO group: how best to make use of the next 12 hours? | 45 comments
sorry folks; off to bed (4.00 / 4)
exhausted after a long day, but...

here's the USA Today coverage:  http://www.usatoday.com/news/p...

Thanks Mike -- get some sleep! (4.00 / 1)
Great advice to us from Bernie Sanders at the end of the article:

"They should be organizing a grassroots movement," he said, "so it will be easier for Obama to stand up to the wealthy and powerful special interests who are going to be pushing him the other way."

Why yes, that's just what we're doing here ...

[ Parent ]
Bernie is the bomb!! (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
Sample Flyer Copy . . . (4.00 / 1)
[Add clip art fire crackers and flags for bonus 4th of July points!!]

Celebrate the US Constitution on the 4th of July!
Tell the US Senate to get FISA right before voting next Tuesday. Don't let illegal wire-tappers off the hook.

The Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution:

" The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

The US Senate votes on FISA next Tuesday, July 8. Without your help right now, a flawed FISA bill will give George Bush a pass for years of potentially illegal spying on millions of US citizens.  

What can you do?  How about something simple, easy, patriotic and fun?

Call your Senators and Barack Obama and ask that they vote against the current FISA bill.   Don't let illegal wire-tappers off the hook!

Senator [Name and Phone] Obama HQ (866) 675-2008
Senator [Name and Phone]

USA: 1950 to 2010

[ Parent ]
what about focusing on Obama a bit more? (0.00 / 0)
Tell Barack Obama and the US Senate to get FISA Right before Tuesday July 8th!

Don't let illegal wire-tappers off the hook.

The US Senate votes on FISA Tuesday, July 8. Without your help right now, a flawed FISA bill will give George Bush and Telco Companies like AT&T immunity for illegally spying on millions of US citizens.

Even Obama is willing to give them immunity, after promising not to!

What can you do?
Tell Obama To Get FISA Right: (866) 675-2008
Tell Your Senator Too: Senate Switchboard Number

Join the largest group on my.barackobama.com: Get FISA Right
url

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
bah - auto-strikeout by accident (0.00 / 0)
those are things to be inserted

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
How about an "ask" and an ask? (4.00 / 5)
Ask: That he do everything within his power to fix FISA - and point out what's wrong with it - point by point.  Short and sweet, bulletpoints that he can answer.

Ask: What can we do to facilitate him standing up on this issue?

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net



That's a good way of thinking of it ... (4.00 / 2)
Although of course a lot will depend on the statement ...

At least on immunity, one way of looking at "facilitating him standing up" is as "helping him get the votes".  From the in-progress page How we can work with Senator Obama to defeat telecom immunity:


Senator Obama has consistently said that he opposes telecom immunity and will work with his Senate colleagues to remove it from the FISA bill. Let's be optimistic and assume that his statement to us expresses an interest in working together on this front. There's no question that 12,000 enthusiastic volunteers (or however many of us there are when you read this!) could make a difference here.

There are some rough ideas there to start with -- refinements and other thoughts welcome!

jon

[ Parent ]
Information? (4.00 / 4)
This is off the top of my head, but I might consider creating a simply leaflet for people to hand out at 4th of July events or to family etc. at barbecues. It should be constitution themed, have like a three sentence explanation of the issue, and then have contacts for Obama. Should also have info for where people can look up their own Senators' contact info, and encourage people to join the MYBO group and the FB group.

Other than that I don't have a whole lot of other ideas. If anyone had a contact at moveon, obviously, them taking this on could make a huge difference. I know they've made some motions in that direction, and they'd be capable of providing some real leadership if they wanted to. I just don't know if they're ready for that yet.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

Good idea on the leaflet ... (0.00 / 0)
Is there something out there that we could start with?

If there are any more detailed thoughts about what should go in the leaflet please add them to the (currently-very-sketchy) wiki page.

[ Parent ]
start with? (0.00 / 0)
We're just talking some text and maybe a graphic. Once you have what you want to say finalized if you need someone to lay it out and do four ups on a 8/5 x 11 that people can print and cut at Kinkos email me. I'll put one together in about 10 minutes.

You should hurry up and get this prepped by noon - people will be out the door by 1pm EST for the long weekend.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Flyering at Barbeques is a very good idea. (0.00 / 0)
People can flyer parades too.

the great thing about BBQs is that there will be a lot of automatic allies who might not have joined the group or be aware of Obama's horrible position on FISA.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Keep it simple (4.00 / 1)
Send an email to everyone on the list.

Ask them to a) email the obama campaign, b) call the national HQ and C) call their LOCAL obama HQ. Local pressure will remind organizers that this matters, and there is a chance they will funnel the message upwards.

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

We've been doing that regularly ... (0.00 / 0)
... and people have been calling and emailing.  by itself, though, that doesn't help grow the group ...
[ Parent ]
Non-money bomb (4.00 / 1)
This is a retread of a previous comment, but I think the idea is still valid, so here we go:

I think we should get people to pledge not to donate to Obama for a month unless he does the right thing on FISA. If he does step up to the plate, he gets a big chunk of cash. If not, we try to get people to steer it towards red-state challengers standing up for the rule of law.

This would raise the profile of such candidates and make it clear that the new FISA bill isn't popular anywhere outside the beltway, whilst putting Obama on notice. Hopefully lazy journalists will fail to notice the "one month" bit and spin it as Obama having trouble with the left, which gets him some MSM love, and the money still arrives a month later anyway.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

There's been some discussion of that ... (4.00 / 1)
Kos said that this is what he's doing.  It ties in with some of the other "accountability" discussions here.  Realistically, I'm not sure this is likely to change Obama's position on FISA in the very short term.  [I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's not a short-term priority.]  

What do others think?

[ Parent ]
I'm not looking to win this one (4.00 / 2)
Frankly, I think we already lost this fight. Obama made a big U-turn and he's unlikely to feel able to reverse that - it undermines all the moves to the centre he's made in the past two weeks.

What this would do would be to make him that much less likely to try to do this on another issue this campaign season and to lay the groundwork for any pushback that might be necessary against a President Obama.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (0.00 / 0)
I am fighting this mostly symbolically for future efforts. FISA is probably a lost cause, but I want Obama to think twice the next time there is an opportunity to turn on his progressive base. I want him to know that he can't take our support for granted.
[ Parent ]
I agree... (0.00 / 0)
It seems like even if we win this FISA fight with Obama, he (i.e., we) loses because the talking points for the next five months will be that Obama caves a lot.  No one likes a stubborn candidate, but people will absolutely recoil from a weak candidate.
[ Parent ]
Can we get a protest in Washington DC going on Tuesday? (4.00 / 1)
"[Obama] is then scheduled to participate in two events in Washington within the span of two hours on Tuesday. At 6 p.m., Mr. Obama is to attend a dinner at the home of Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, where guests must spend $28,500."

Rockefeller of course has been behind the FISA sell out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07...

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

Discuss the new federal decision, concerning a FISA lawsuit (4.00 / 1)
Today's NYT includes an article about a ruling by a federal judge in California, rejecting the Bush administration's argument that the president's constitutional authority as commander in chief trumped FISA, and affirming that FISA was the exclusive wiretapping authority. Link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07...

I don't know if this is the first decision from a federal court making this ruling, or just the latest.  But because it is new, perhaps it gives Obama some room, somehow, to reconsider his position.  (Note, the lawsuit in question is against the government, as opposed to a telecom, meaning that immunity is irrelevant).  

Just to amplify (0.00 / 0)
The Electronic Frontier Foundation has an analysis of the decision, explaining that it helps undermine one of the key arguments for telecom immunity.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2...

[ Parent ]
I don't see how we can lead a charge (0.00 / 0)
to prosecute the telecoms in isolation.  Is the argument that the Telecoms violated the Constitution?  Clearly, the FISA Bill has a problem.  But the Telecoms did not line up and decide to spy on the American people all by themselves.  They did it in response to a request/demand from the Executive branch--in conjunction with the tacit/explicit endorsement of the Legislative branch.  So as a matter of law and politics, how do you separate out the Telecoms without also bringing the same kind of call to action against Congress and the administration who were also involved in this violation of rights?

And if that's the case, how does a candidate for president who is in congress support a movement seeking court action against the branch of government he is in and the branch he seeks?  

Believe me, I am no apologist for anyone--it makes me sick that heads of large corporations did not stand on principle when their moment came--but as a matter of politics, I just dont' get it yet how this focus on the Telecoms alone gets us where we want--either with respect to the law or the Constitution or the election.

 

No (0.00 / 0)
FISA made such demands by the executive, or such actions by the telecoms, illegal. It was written precisely to deal with this problem - executive branch and telecom cooperation in illegal spying.  The legislative branch can't tacitly endorse the violation of a statute, and the president cannot order the violation of a statute.  

The reason for going after the telecoms and not the executive branch is that 1) they broke the law, and are liable - there's no "other people were involved too" immunity and 2) it's even more difficult to litigate these sorts of issues against the government than it is the telecoms.  But the only way we'll learn the truth of what happened (which is necessary to bring those in the executive branch to justice) is the litigate this case.)  The more information that comes out of it, the more ammo congressional investigators will have in dealing with the executive branch.  That is, the focus isn't on the telecoms alone, but litigation against them in one of the ways to deal with this issue.  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure it's true that the telecoms are an easier target (0.00 / 0)
Whether or not government officials are defendants, or whether or not the government is a party to a lawsuit, the government will still be invoking any privilege in the books to prevent disclosure.  So, I think people may simply be mistaken in assuming that more information will ultimately come out if the telecoms are the named defendants.

This does not mean that the telecoms should be given immunity, of course.  

[ Parent ]
that's exactly my point (0.00 / 0)
This is not about the Telecoms.  It's intended as a stepping stone into the entire issue of government accountability--specifically, a way into a process that will bring to light violations committed by government itself.  I mean, you can say in the abstract that the Telecoms broke the law.  But to do what?  Telecoms don't 'spy' on Americans.  Spies spy--telecoms aren't spies.  And that brings us back to the two elected branches.

I am neither a lawyer nor a Constitutional expert and I get to this tangle in a matter of seconds.  If the government calls me and asks me to do the right thing and help stop the next terrorist attack, and I comply--the logic, here, is that I get prosecuted on the hope that it will also bring to light damning information about the government officials who called me in the first place?  

I'm sorry, but I still don't get why this is where we want to head right now.  And I am someone who very strongly wants people held accountable for the widespread civil liberties abuses that began after 9/11 and are still ongoing.

[ Parent ]
How is breaking, or going outside of the law (0.00 / 0)
doing the "right thing"?

As I understand the issue, the actions undertaken by the Telecoms was illegal under existing law.  Some companies managed to notice this and refused to comply (can't remember which, off the top of my head).


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
It's obviously not (0.00 / 0)
Please, let's not get into a situation where each of us needs to prove that they are committed to upholding the 4th Amendment in order to participate in this discussion.  What a waste of time it would be.

The problem is that these companies who broke the law believed the unitary executive arguments put before them or they would not have done it.  So that is what will be put on trial.

(and I don't remember either which telecom refused...Qwest, maybe?)

[ Parent ]
I Don't Think It's A Question of Whether They Believed Those Arguments (4.00 / 2)
At the time, I don't think they were even thinking.  They were in strict doggie-school obedience mode.

Retroactively, of course, they will argue otherwise, and that will be the game that has to be played.  But we shouldn't totally dispense with reality as a benchmark.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
What about the next time a "unitary executive" asks a corporation to break the law? (0.00 / 0)
If they look to the recent past and see that they can go along, then get immunity after the fact, what will stop them from complying?  Nothing.

If they look to the past and see that they have to act responsibly and lawfully right from the start, maybe they'll pay a bit more attention to the details and find the strength to refuse.

On a semantic note: if you don't believe that they "did the right thing", then don't say it.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
And here's your advice (0.00 / 0)
Don't lie about me in a public forum.

I never said Telecoms should be given immunity.

[ Parent ]
If I lied about you I apologize (0.00 / 0)
It was not my intention.  Looking back over the thread, I see that you are correct, you have not clearly addressed the issue of immunity, one way or the other.

I don't see where you say anything about how to hold these corporations responsible for their violation of the law.

Where do they pay for their crime?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
they pay at the clerk's office (0.00 / 0)
like everyone else convicted of a civil crime.

But my comments were about political strategy, that's all.

I put up a post that made sense to me (see below)--pushing people to the Feingold petition at DFA.  Thanks for the feedback in this thread--it all helped me figure out what I needed to say/do.

And have a good weekend.

[ Parent ]
I read that post (0.00 / 0)
and up-rated your comment accordingly.

Have fun!


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Qwest Refused (4.00 / 1)
Not clear, I guess, if (a) they were the only ones who listened to their lawers or (b) they were the only ones who evern asked them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
People who spy are spies (0.00 / 0)
You're not a lawyer, and you're not an multi-million dollar organization with a phalanx of lawyers who specialize in telecom law, and there aren't any laws specifically designed to prevent you from doing something that you have done in the past. So the "if the government called me" metaphor just isn't very helpful.  

They recorded all conversations (phone, text, emails) over their networks illegally, routing them through a single secret room in San Francisco.  They essentially conducted the search, where there was no warrant, and handed it all over to the NSA.  This is specifically prohibited by FISA - not just what the NSA did, what the telecoms did.  That's why Qwest refused to comply.  It is about the telecoms, but it's not just about the telecoms.

We didn't choose to get into this now. Steny Hoyer did.  But if we don't deal with it now, it will be too late. The problems with this bill extend beyond immunity.  The larger issues are unconstitutionality and official lawlessness.  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
Then we should be pushing for no bill (0.00 / 0)
if the situation is as you describe it--not for a bill we don't want anyhow, but which will open the door for Telecom prosecutions.  And we should be running the protest against Hoyer.

Again...I see the logic that the tools are available, that the Obama campaign is based on citizen feedback, etc., etc. All great points.   But how does a Senator sign onto a protest initiative that accuses him of being weak from yet another perspective?   And if he doesn't--if he comes out with a statement, today, that says he's heard this effort, but going to do something slightly different (which is the most likely possibility), then what? This effort morphs into a permanent group based on the idea that Barack Obama is a politician who undermines the Constitution?  And that group is on the campaign site itself?  

Still not following, here.  And trying very hard.

[ Parent ]
Yes, we should be after no bill (4.00 / 1)
Personally, I don't like this focus on immunity, because I think the rest of the bill is FAR worse.  (And if you look at that video by Feingold thanking his supporters, he basically says the same thing.)

I'm still befuddled why immunity gets all the focus.  

[ Parent ]
OK, thanks everyone...I found a way to post on this (4.00 / 1)
and support the effort in a way that makes sense to me:

Frameshop: The FISA...Situation

[ Parent ]
Well, now that you mention it... (4.00 / 1)
There is a lawsuit against the government as well.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g...

Of course, there are criminal penalties as well, but the Bush DOJ is pretty unlikely to move on that, which is why alternatives must be considered.

There is also a campaign against Steny Hoyer - among others.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g...

Want to support that effort instead (or as well)?  
Here's how you can: http://www.actblue.com/page/fisa

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
I've met the telcoms' privacy lawyers (0.00 / 0)
They're well paid and worth it, and have a teamj which specializes in just this area. No doubt they advised the execs of the liabilties. cutting them loose gives a dangerous green light to the next round of illegal surveillance requests.

That said, the legalization of future snooping is more problematic than the trillion dollar bailout.  



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.

[ Parent ]
John Dean on Findlaw: civil but not criminal immunity provisions (4.00 / 1)
On the website as of Wednesday, July 2:

If Senator Obama is going to honor the statement he made to Will Bunch, then he should place the Bush Administration and telecommunications companies on notice of his intentions. This will provide President Bush an opportunity to immunize those who broke the law at his request from criminal prosecutions, which he can do as long as he is President with his power to grant pardons. For Bush to issue a blanket pardon in this situation would be unprecedented, and it would offer Bush a chance at historical ignominy far exceeding what he already faces, and thus potentially become a powerful issue for the Democrats to campaign on during this 2008 election year.

Dean points out that the FISA amendments bill grants civil, not criminal immunity to the telcos. He quotes Sen Brownback on how the bill treats the government:

During the January 24, 2008 debate in the Senate, Senator Brownback noted, "The immunity provisions would not apply to the Government or Government officials. Cases against the Government regarding the alleged programs would continue. And the provisions would apply only to civil and not criminal cases." (Emphasis added.)

This ignores Bush's likely pardon (0.00 / 0)
If Obama makes a big point about his intention to pursue criminal prosecutions, what's to stop from Bush pardoning everyone in sight before he leaves office?
[ Parent ]
Where will the evidence come from? (0.00 / 0)
Why would the telcos roll over on the government if they know there is no risk of prosecution? Why do you think anyone will be investigating the Bush adminstration after January 2009? Democrats couldn't bring themselves to do it while he was still in power. Any calls for oversight will be drowned out by those looking to move on and not appear overly partisan.

Also, Bush won't issue any pardons until after November, so how could it affect the election cycle?  

[ Parent ]
Click to Call Whip Tool (4.00 / 1)

The Blue America community - FireDogLake, Crooks & Liars, Down With Tyranny, Digby & Glenn Greenwald - launched this internet calling tool to get constituents whipping their Senators to support the Dodd-Feingold Amendment which will strip retroactive immunity from the FISA bill.

No president should have the power to monitor the phones and emails of Americans without a warrant, and telecommunications companies should not be let off the hook. The laws apply to presidents and cronies alike, just like they do to the rest of us.

Instructions: Highlight the code. Press Ctrl + C to copy it. To publish this somewhere, press Ctrl + V to paste the code. Sharing this image will spread the word.

<textarea rows="6" cols="40" wrap="virtual"><a href="http://tools.advomatic.com/7/fisa"><img src="http://tools.advomatic.com/files/c2c/widgets/1/raise-your-voice-blue-america.png" class="imgLeft" alt="raise-your-voice-blue-america.png" /></a></textarea>


John McCain is dishonest
"Get FISA Right" myBO group: how best to make use of the next 12 hours? | 45 comments
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