Patriotism Smackdown: Barack Obama Vs. Jane Fonda? (Hegemony Is The Enemy Special Report--Pt3)

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 15:10


In Part II of this series, I referred to Jerry Lembcke's book, The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam, and his examination of the myth that anti-war protesters commonly spat on returning veterans.  I quoted from an interview in which he touched on an important aspect of his book, the attempt to make sense of the myth in terms of blame-shifting, similar to that which took place in Germany after WWI, blame-shifting that would, eventually lead to the rise of the Third Reich.  In this installment, I want to quote extensively from some more recent work that Lembcke has done focusing on another aspect of that same phenomena--the demonization of Jane Fonda.

There is a striking similarity between the two subjects.  Just as Vietnam vets and the anti-war movement were close allies, rather than antagonists back in the late 60s and early 70s, Jane Fonda was a very popular figure with the troops, one of the priniciple organizers of the counter-culture alternative to the Bob Hope USO shows, known either as "Free the Army," or in its more colloquial form, "Fuck the Army."  

Paul Rosenberg :: Patriotism Smackdown: Barack Obama Vs. Jane Fonda? (Hegemony Is The Enemy Special Report--Pt3)
America's Lost War in Vietnam

In a paper you can read online, "Gender, Betrayal, and Public Memory: America's Lost War in Vietnam", presented to the American Sociological Association, in Montreal, 2006, Lembcke begins by saying:

A session on pubic memory could hardly be timelier. The nation's will-to-war was mustered in the spring of 03 with a support-the-troops jingoism that would have never worked, save for the image of spat-upon Vietnam veterans vivid in the public mind. And the 2004 presidential election was arguably decided when the so-called Swift Boat veterans launched a campaign against John Kerry, charging that his record of military accomplishments in Vietnam was false and that his participation in the anti-war movement as a veteran was treasonous.....

He goes on to set up his subject by noting:

The outsized profile of Vietnam is undoubtedly due to its having been America's first lost war, its longest war, and very controversial.

U.S. military involvement in Vietnam began growing in the 1950s, at a time when the ideology of America first, and best, had its strongest grip on the nation's people. And from there the nation went down to defeat--defeat to a small, underdeveloped nation of Asians.

It was a tough pill to swallow for American patriots, a defeat that demanded explanation, and the explanation that worked best was the one that we did not lose the war to the Vietnamese but to betrayal on the home front--liberals in congress tied one hand behind our backs; radicals in the streets demoralized our troops and lent aid and comfort to the enemy.

It was alibi, not an explanation, and a dangerous alibi at that. It kept alive the belief that we could have won the war if . . . and that we could win wars like it again if . . .

The alibi had a cultural dimension that spelled additional dangers. It wasn't just that the anti-war movement had tipped the balance but that the rising of a counterculture sapped the very virility of America's capacity for war. The permissive hedonism of the 1960s and 1970s--ran the alibi--eroded the discipline of young men and challenged the productionist ethic, dominant since Jamestown. That challenge set the stage for the culture war, the subtext of Republican campaign strategies right through 2004.

In his book Wealth and Democracy, former GOP uber-guru Kevin Phillips draws parallels between the paths of the last three dominant world power and the United States.  First Spain, the Holland and England rose to peaks of world power, during which time they experienced a broad rise in the material well-being of their people, only to be stung by an unexpected reversal at the height of there dominance.  As a result they each experienced periods of reactionary politics lasting several decades, during which the elites did better than ever, while the large mass of people experienced stagnant or declining income.  Each of these powers also experienced the same economic shift from production to finance that America has experienced since the period previous to Vietnam.  Phillips did not discuss cultural mythology, but it would hardly be surprising to find similar examples of blame-shifting for the reversals faced by those previous world powers as well.  

The good news is that each of them eventually returned to a more egalitarian political ethos.  Thirty-five years after leaving Vietnam, it would seem that our time to change should be at hand as well.  Unfortunately, the American people seem to be well ahead of the Democratic Party leadership on this score--and Barack Obama is no exception in still being in thrall to the reactionary cultural narratives of this fading era, even as he proclaims his intention to "turn the page."  His  buying into the notion that anti-war protesters brought everlasting shame to America is a salient example of how he is deeply enmeshed in the very backwards-looking assumptions he would pretend to free us from.  The spitting myth is one driving force in those assumptions.  The myth of "Hanoi Jane" is another.

War, Identity And "Hanoi Jane"

Lembcke continues setting the stage:

War in western society is a masculine endeavor: our warriors are men and war defines manhood--like childbirth for women, Nietzsche wrote, war is the rite of passage for males. Our military victories are fixed in our memories by gender-mediated images: an exuberant sailor bending aggressively over a limp nurse balanced on one leg in Times Square recalls for us the triumphalism that marked the end of World War II.

Lost wars are a blow to male identity--and not just to the defeated warriors, but to the collective identity, the masculinity, of the group.  It is no surprise, then that from antiquity onward, losses to enemies abroad are attributed to failures at home and that those failures appear in gendered images: Lysistrata's sex strike against the Peloponnesian War and Malanche's betrayal of the Aztexs are well-known examples.

That literary tradition extends into the betrayal narrative for America's lost war in Vietnam wherein the spitters who greeted deplanning troops at the San Francisco airport are remembered as girls or young women--or male longhairs. Commenting on the Swift Boaters' criticism of Kerry's taste for French wine, Columnist Frank Rich observed that "French" in this usage was code for "faggot."

He next introduces his specific subject, sharping the question of why this particular icon:

The study of public memory necessarily involves the study of the icons that mediate our memories and, in the case of Fonda, "Hanoi Jane," the trope or phrase that carries the connotation of treason and betrayal that it does.

In the book I'm writing, I treat "Hanoi Jane" as a myth and like most myths there are matters of fact that cannot be ignored in her making.

Fonda went to Hanoi in July 1972 when we were at war with North Vietnam. She met with North Vietnamese leaders, talked to U.S. POWs held in Hanoi, made broadcasts over radio Hanoi denouncing the war, and was photographed sitting on an anti-aircraft gun.

But that's Jane Fonda and what she did differed very little from what some of the 350 other peace travelers did who had been to Hanoi before her. Indeed, in that number there are individuals who made more incendiary broadcasts than she did or who actually carried material support to the enemy. So why, and how, did Jane Fonda become "Hanoi Jane" when, say, Ramsey Clark didn't become "Hanoi Ramsey"?

The answer should be obvious. Ramsey Clark may have been the U.S. Attorney General.  He was never Barbarella.  But Lembcke lets such obvious observations lie, turning instead to the how of mythmaking, which in this case involves two salient aspects--the presence of a pre-existing archetype, and the inconvenient fact that Fonda didn't really fit it:

Debunking a myth involves both reconstructing its making--who made it and so forth--and understanding how it works in the present culture.

Where did "Hanoi Jane" come from? As a trope, of course, it mimics, "Axis Sally" and "Tokyo Rose," reputed betrayal figures from World War II who used radio broadcasts to propagandize American soldiers for the enemy Germans and the Japanese.

Newspapers commonly claim that Vietnam veterans dubbed Fonda "Hanoi Jane," Veterans supposedly hate her because her broadcasts from Hanoi demoralized them while they sat n the steamy jungle of South Vietnam. But that's not true. Fonda was actually quite popular among GIs for her anti-war variety show, know variously as Free the Army or Fuck the Army, that toured military bases. Moreover, by the time she made the broadcasts, there were almost no Americans left in the South.

Origins & Spread of A Myth In The Rightwing Infrastructure

Which, of course, meant that the fate of the war had already been determined.  Still, knowing the historical record, Lembcke sought to discover what impact those broadcasts, and her other actions may have had on those who were directly touched:

I ran a classified ad in the magazine Vietnam asking to hear from veterans who heard the broadcasts [of Fonda from NV]. I got one response from a guy saying that he actually had photos of her that he had taken--in South Vietnam, of course.  Of course, Fonda was never in South Vietnam, and I've never received copies of the photos.

Perhaps it was a subset of veterans--the POWs--who saddled Fonda with "Hanoi Jane." That's plausible because there are POWs angry that she met on frtiendly terms with teh Vietnamese officials who were holding them prisoners.  But in the first thiry POW memoirs, those prior to 1990, by which time "Hanoi Jane" was a widely-used phrase, I found only two references to Fonda and one was positive.

Jane Fonda, in other words, didn't become important to the Hanoi POWs until long after their release--and until other social forces had made her important to them.

And what "social forces are we talking about?  Like a detective, I've followed the trail of "Hanoi Jane" backwards from the present to see where it began.  Along the way, I've found the fingerprints of The Minute Men, and ultra-right-wing paramilitary militia group, and the Lyndon LaRouiche organization, who some of you might remember campaigned against both Greenpeace and Jane Fonda on the slogan, "Feed Jane Fonda to the Whales."  The trail leads through the publications of the John Birch Society that spearheaeded the effort to have her charged for treason.

What Lembcke has found here is highly significant.  What most people take to be proof of leftwing perfidy is actually proof of how powerfully extreme rightwing fantasists are able to influence our cultural narratives.  David Neiwert, of Orcinus, has written extensively over the years about the way in which hard right ideas get transmitted from the extreme fringes into the mainstream of conservative discourse, and from there into the mainstream of political thought.  His Koufax-winning series, "Rush, Newspeak and Fascism,", was devoted, in part, to examing the role that Rush Limbaugh plays in the process, along with varioius other figures, who are also involved in transmitting ideas between different sectors of the right.  This part of series starts with Part VII, "The Transmission Belt", in which Neiwert introduces the basic ideas, starting with much lower-profile figure, Richard Mack, then sheriff of Arizona's mostly rural Graham County:

"Hitler was more moral than Clinton," intoned the nice-looking, dark-haired man in the three-piece suit. "He had fewer girlfriends."

....

the scene above took place four years before Monica, in 1994, long before Clinton handed his enemies a scandal on a platter that seemingly made such references acceptable....

The similarities between Mack's 1994 sentiments and the hyperbole directed at Clinton in 1998 are not accidental. Rather, they offer a stark example of the way the far right's ideas, rhetoric and issues feed into the mainstream -- and in the process, exert a gravitational pull that draws the nation's agenda increasingly rightward. For that matter, much of the conservative anti-Clinton paroxysm could be traced directly to some of the smears that circulated first in militia and white-supremacist circles.

It's also important to understand how the migration of these ideas occurs. Richard Mack, for instance, doesn't compare Bill Clinton's morality to Adolph Hitler's at every speaking opportunity. His remark didn't show up, for instance, when he had his moment in the sun with the National Rifle Association.

It just pops out when he's in front of an audience of Patriot believers. That's when he knows it will gain the most appreciation. It mixes well with the fear of the New World Order he foments, in his quiet, almost sedate speaking tone.

Mack is a transmitter -- someone who treads the boundaries of the various sectors of America's right wing and appears to belong to each of them at various times. Mack's gun-control message still sells well with mainstream, secular NRA audiences. His claims that church-state separation is a myth resonate nicely with the theocratic right crowd as well. And he cultivates a quasi-legitimate image by taking leadership positions in groups like Larry Pratt's Gun Owners of America. But he is most at home in his native base: the populist right, the world of militias, constitutionalists and pseudo-libertarians. Mack even occasionally consorts with the hard right, as when he granted front-page interviews to the Christian Identity newspaper The Jubilee.

Neiwert also deals with official transmitters, such as Trent Lott, with his long-time white racist connections, and other media transmitters, most notoriously including Ann Coulter.  The point is, Neiwert demonstrates-and other accounts confirm-that the right has long had well-developed networks for developing and transmitting their political narratives.  Thus, the development of a bogus narrative about Jane Fonda in extreme rightwing circles and its later introduction into the mainstream is anything but a novel occurance.  The myth is particularly effective in combining a number of rightwing messages, as Lembcke explains:

In their most generic forms, myths pair figures of good and evil. Often the story is about an evil person that tells us who to beware of and what acts should not go unpunished. We learn from the story what is "bad" and comport ourselves accordingly.

"Hanoi Jane" images someone who violated the trust of fellow Americans during wartime. She gave aid and comfort to the enemy, which encouraging them to continue the fight and prolonged the time behind bars for the POWs.

She betrayed the POWs. One story circulating on the internet says the POWs she met slipped her little pieces of paper with their names so she could tell their families they were alive; she betrayed them by turning the notes over to the guards resulting in the deaths of some of some of those prisoners.

That story isn't true but the "Hanoi Jane" it remembers stands for the values and behaviors of the social movement that opposed the war. It helps some Americans "know" that dissent during wartime is "bad" because "it's like what Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam War. In the context of the present war in Iraq, the memory of "Hanoi Jane" works to preclude opposition to the war while forming a template for the disparagement of those who dare.

Captivity Narratives, POWs & Creating Culture Heroes

Furthermore, it derives a good deal of power from echoing themes deeply rooted in the American psyche, going back to the earliest American literary genre, known as the captivity narrative:

The mythology of "Hanoi Jane" works so well as the core chapter of America's great betrayal narrative because, as it turns out, it resonates with the captivity mythology at the core of American identity.

....

The first literature produced by colonial America was the so-called captivity narratives, stories written by Americans who had been captured by Indians. John Smith's story is one of the classics. Smith was captured on a mission into Indian Territory in 1607. Spared from execution by Pocahontas, Smith negotiated his own release, receiving land for Jamestown in return for his promise of cannons and a grindstone for the Indians-a promise never kept. By this account, Smith saved Jamestown. Smith was a hero.

....

The captivity narrative became more complex after several instances of captives, many of them women and girls giving in to their inner Indian, rejected the Puritan path and chose to remain with their erstwhile captors. Those stories gave the literature the qualities it needed for an interface with the POW narrative coming out of Vietnam 250 years later.

The captivity literature constructed the tension between the Self and Other, what was American and what was not. At one pole, "them," a racialized figure, with a nomadic, libidinous, matriarchal, and pagan way of life, the attraction to which, forced Puritans to recognize the "them" in themselves.

At the other pole, "us," a Godly but fearful people besieged, and beset with doubt about the Puritan will to resist the wild within. America was born embattled and, the American, born with the values of discipline, self-denial, austerity, and subordination to authority, was born a warrior-hard and male.

The "Hanoi Jane" mythology has an almost perfect symmetry with the early-American captivity narrative. The image of the enemy-Vietnamese painted by the POW memoirs is Indian-like in its savage use of rope torture, ignorant and incompetent in its inability to interrogate prisoners without torture, and in its unbounded sexuality. All the guards were homosexuals, wrote one POW. But that's only the male guards-the women camp-workers were sex-starved heteros who couldn't keep their eyes off the buffed flyers-every one of them a Pocahontas with the hots for a fighter jock.

Eyes were one thing, hands another. The same memoirs record the self-restraint of the Aces: gratification could wait. Their self discipline would insure that Vietnamese hands, of any sexual orientation, stayed off the Right Stuff.

Structurally, then, "Hanoi Jane" works to compose her mythical opposite, the soldiers who continued the good fight behind prison walls-prisoners at war, not of war. Beyond the reach of Washington's sell-out bureaucracy and the corruption of the counter culture, they retained their dignity as warriors, defying the guards' demands for compliance to camp rules and resisting the temptation to fraternize with the enemy.

This passage, written in 2002, also provides insight into the canonization of John McCain, as well as his delusional belief (shared by Jim Webb, BTW) that America could have won in Vietnam, if only....  

In no other conflict in centuries have POWs been considered heroes.  But, then, this was a conflict we lost.  And our need to construct heroes was so overwhelming that POWs were drafted into the role.  Of course, the captivity narratives provided a template from an earlier era when we weren't such confident and consistent winners.

What's more, Richard Nixon deliberately manipulated them into this role.  This is another piece of history I witnessed directly, but it is also described in another book abut another major myth of the Vietnam War, M.I.A. or Mythmaking in America by H. Bruce Franklin.  Faced with the unpleasant prospect of being the first American President to lose a war, Nixon sought a rhetorical way out, "Peace With Honor," and the key to pulling this off was deceptively simple: to alter the terms of the war, to make it about securing the Americans held as prisoners of war-prisoners who would ordinarily be returned at the end of the conflict anyway.

This last, annoying minor detail was dispensed with by the further demonization of the Vietnamese enemy, which necessitated the creation of a new bureucratic bastard category--POW/MIA--never before employed by US military, which combined those lost in battle and almost certainly dead with those who were captured live, and held prisoner.  By holding the Vietnamese responsible for men they never captured, we could create an impossible demand that would leave them forever evil for the heinous act of fighting for their own freedom and self-determination.  (Recall that Ho Chi Minh had been a US agent in World War II, OSS "Agent 19," and modelled Vietnam's "Declaration of Independence," issued at the end of that war, on America's original document.)

Nixon was aided in this ploy by H. Ross Perot, who, in his earliest political venture, set up an organization to... well, it wasn't exactly clear what.  But defintely stir people's passions about the POWs, raise false hopes about men killed in action, and distract attention from the fact that (a) we were losing the war, and (b) our war-fighting policies constituted war crimes on a massive scale.  The emotionally-inflamed, but sharply narrowed focused on POWs  and those actually killed in action, but imaginatively kept alive with false hope allowed us to both ignore the enormity of the slaughter we had wrought, and the defeat we were running away from.

Above all, it allowed us to reinvent the notion that we were "the good guys."  And if it required, in the end, that we embrace the notion that our nation had deliberately abandoned hundreds of POWs for some dark mysterious unfathomable motive, then so be it, we would forever accuse our own government, in the abstract, of treasonous betrayal.  And so it is today, that the POW/MIA flag is the only flag other than Old Glory ever to fly over the White House, while every state flies it at capitals and public facilities, and mandates observance of National POW/MIA Recognition Day.

This is the larger cultural context out of which John McCain has become a war hero, about whom nothing critical may be said, until a general who had actually won a war-Wesley Clark-had the temerity to point out that heroism in captivity does not equate to command experience.  What could not be explained about the recent brouhaha over Clark's remarks is that all the outrage was fueled by a fierce underlying attachment to the POW/MIA myth as a way of restructuring the Vietnam War as a moral victory.  This mythic narrative simply cannot be allowed to be contaminated by logic, facts or historical accuracy.  Truth is the enemy, and must be defeated at all costs.

Fonda As Betrayer: Peace Is The Enemy

Lembcke's point is that the construction of the POWs as culture heroes in the mold of the original captivity narratives was part of the same gestalt casting Fonda as a betrayer who went native, betraying her culture-as did the entire counter-culture she represented:

Structurally, then, "Hanoi Jane" works to compose her mythical opposite, the soldiers who continued the good fight behind prison walls-prisoners at war, not of war. Beyond the reach of Washington's sell-out bureaucracy and the corruption of the counter culture, they retained their dignity as warriors, defying the guards' demands for compliance to camp rules and resisting the temptation to fraternize with the enemy.

It is these hero-POWs that America welcomed home with parades and whose experience provided the basis for Hollywood's revision of the war as an American event-Americans against Americans. Displaced by that solipsistic exercise were the Vietnamese as agents of their own destiny.

So, if we couldn't eliminate the bastards by dropping more explosives on them than were used in all of WWII, we could at least eliminate them from our history.  Which, of course, meant that the real enemy was the anti-war protesters.  And hence, Obama's claim about "a national shame" that lasts "to this day" echoes this rightwing reframing of who and what the Vietnam War-and its loss-were all about.

Lembcke continues:

The "Hanoi Jane" mythology also reminds us that there is an "enemy within," the anti-warrior latent within the culture, the self-indulgent and rebellious underbelly of America that could and did turn hard men soft and cost the nation its victory in Southeast Asia. Fonda appealed to the inner-softness of the male psyche of the POWs and found it in the Hanoi Peace Committee, the anti-war POWs who met with her and made public statements against the war.

Their vulnerability to the seductions of "Hanoi Jane," this false prophet promising peace, warns us all of the constant need for internal vigilance-lest the Self, individual and collective, betray us.

Like captives who "went native" generations before, some of the anti-war POWs contemplated staying in Hanoi upon their release. For that, those Judases pay a price of course: today America remembers the heroes John McCain and John Stockdale; the modern-day John Smiths. But the members of the peace committee-or even that there was a peace committee among the POWs-is, like Eunice Williams who stayed with the Mohawks in 1704, gone from public memory.

It is, in fact, precisely the possibility of peace without dominance of the other that must be utterly annulled, driven out of the realm of possibility, and anyone who resists this effort must be relentlessly demonized, and forced or shamed into silence.  And anyone who even incidentally defends them, or questions this process in any way must likewise be demonized as well. For the possibility of living outside the framework of domination is utterly abhorent to the authoritarian mind.

And, of course, as long as we cannot step outside of, and critique the framework of domination, we can never know peace.  Because war is written into the very essence of the authoritarian worldview.  And in this worldview, there is no alternative.  Whoever pretends to want something else, to live in peace with mutual respect between cultures and nations, is either a deceptive charlatan or a naive dupe-just as the John Birch Society once accused President Eisenhower of being a Communist dupe.

This is a most convenient belief, since it means that one never has to defend one's beliefs based on reason.  One simply assumes that no other alternative is possible, and that anyone advancing such alternatives is either a liar or a fool.

On its face, this seems utterly absurd.  And yet, the triumph of the "Hanoi Jane" mythology and it's power to stifle dissent, along with the related myths of the POW/MIAs and the spitting protesters, has precisely this effect.  Which is why official Washington is paralyzed in the face of solid majority opposition to continuing the Iraq War-and why we are nowhere close to beginning the process of re-conceiving the struggle to manage the threat of global terrorism.

The enemy within is central to the mythology of "Hanoi Jane" and an elemental component of America's new narrative as a nation betrayed. In the wake of Vietnam, the nation lost its sense of future-oriented hopefulness, its self-identity as destined people mandated to bring goodness to earth.

The far-right paramilitary movements that stepped out the shadows during the nineteen eighties and nineties were motivated by revenge, the need to recover something they believed to have been lost in Vietnam; their search for the "internal enemy" responsible for the defeat fueled the crusade against feminism, pacifism, intellectual culture, pernicious entitlement programs, and the federal government wherein they allege the ultimate traitors reside.

This is the culture war as Obama understands it.  It is what he wants to end, and there's good reason to want to do this.  But it's an underlying thesis of this series that he really doesn't understand the basis of the culture war, and in fact buys into fundamental aspects of the worldview of those who launched it in the first place.

And to fully understand this, there's a bigger picture to consider, which I will turn to in the next installment.


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Fonda (0.00 / 0)
   Was Fonda , "a very popular figure with the troops."? Lembcke, being a sociologist does he give any survey data from the era? Paul giving anecdotal evidence based on hanging with VVAW members and hanging out with anti-war GI's in that era's coffeehouses near military bases reflects, is the term, "selection bias."?
  Ho Chi Minh, yes he did work w/the OSS during WWII, as did Tito's Partisans. (See a book by an OSS agent A. Patti on Ho and the OSS.) However, Ho was also a dedicated cadre of the Stalinized Communist Int'l. Hardly a Jeffersonian democrat when it came to killing Trotskyists and the model established by Ho, after '75 purged and sent to those re-education camps, all pf the leading cadre of the PRG and NLF with "social democratic" or liberal democratic leanings.
  Citing H. Bruce Franklin? Take a look at the preface he wrote for, "The essential Stalin, " from 1972, Doubleday Books, 1972.
  Ramsey Clark? As leftist writer for The Nation and Salon, Ian Williams wrote old cornpone Ramsey is the war criminals best friend.

VVAW (0.00 / 0)
    Only 7,000 joined VVAW? From a pro-war website, http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jan... >... The Vietnam Veterans Against the War Organization membership was approximately 7,000 at it's highest.  The Organization's membership number was comparatively low, when you consider that more than 2 1/2 million Americans served during the Vietnam  war.  

  >...The Wall Street Journal (August 3, 1995) published an interview with Bui Tin who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975.  During the interview  Mr. Tin was asked if the American antiwar movement was important to Hanoi's victory.  Mr. Tin responded "It was essential to our strategy"  referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets.  He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement."

Visits to Hanoi made by persons such as Jane Fonda, former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."  Mr. Tin surmised that "America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win."  Mr. Tin further advised that General Vo Nguyen Giap (Commanding General of the North Vietnam Army) said the 1968 Tet Offensive was a defeat.  
 


[ Parent ]
So It Really WAS Jane Fonda Who Defeated Us In Vietnam! (0.00 / 0)
Your pathetic attempts to defend the rightwing narrative only overlook the entire history of Vietnam over the past 2000 years, a period of time in which it has repeatedly fought for its independence from China.

This simple historical fact reveals that our entire policy was founded on at least two fundamentally mistaken ideas:

(1) That Vienamese Communists were part of an international conspiracy, directly accountable to their Chinese masters and acting in lockstep to take over the world, and thus a loss in Vietnam would inevitably lead to a long string of "falling dominoes."

(2) That the Vietnamese could be defeated on the battlefield, and would not keep fighting for generations, if necessary, to acheive political autonomy.

Of course, as soon as we finally lost the Vietnam War, we quickly found ourselves allied with the Chinese against the Vietnamese as they invaded Cambodia to depose Pol Pot's genocidal regime--a conveniently forgotten part of our history.

Yeah, us, the Chicoms and Pol Pot all on the same team.  Sweet!

Wait till my next installment, you'll have yourself a chance to defend Hitler!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
hitler, oy vey! (0.00 / 0)
Paul>...Wait till my next installment, you'll have yourself a chance to defend Hitler!

  How did you know I am Leon Trotsky? Why all the Stalinists said Trotsky and Hitler were bosom buddies.  


[ Parent ]
Huh? What's with the obsession with Trotsky? (4.00 / 1)
The more I read Michael, the less I think he's a troll. He's just a nutter.

[ Parent ]
Snopes weighs in (4.00 / 1)
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/g...

I'd love to see the original article of the alleged Bui Tin interview. I have doubts it ever existed because if it did it would be at Grover Furr's page and it ain't.

Here is an article Bui Tin did write that angered Hanoi so they censored it:

http://www.venguon.org/Post-do...


[ Parent ]
Grover Furr, Stalinist (0.00 / 0)
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005...
Stalin and the Struggle for Democratic Reform

Part One

Grover Furr This article outlines Joseph Stalin's attempts, from the 1930s until his death, to democratize the government of the Soviet Union


[ Parent ]
Bui Tin (0.00 / 0)
  Sad only conservatives know this book by Bui Tin,
Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel Univ of Hawaii Pr (August 1995)

[ Parent ]
How North Vietnam Won The War (0.00 / 0)
http://www.viet-myths.net/BuiT...
How North Vietnam Won The War
Bui Tin Interviewed by Stephen Young

What did the North Vietnamese leadership think of the American antiwar movement? What was the purpose of the Tet Offensive? How could the U.S. have been more successful in fighting the Vietnam War? Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, answers these questions in the following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young,  a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist  [in The Wall Street Journal, 3 August 1995]. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. He later became editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of Vietnam. He now lives in Paris, where he immigrated after becoming disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said,
"We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?
A:  It was essential to our strategy.  Support of the war from our rear was completely secure  while the American rear was vulnerable.  Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m.  to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.  Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence  that we should hold on  in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?
A: Keenly.

Q: Why?
A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.

Q: How could the Americans have won the war?
A: Cut the Ho Chi Minh trail inside Laos. If Johnson had granted [Gen. William] Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.

Q: Anything else?
A: Train South Vietnam's generals. The junior South Vietnamese officers were good, competent and courageous, but the commanding general officers were inept.

Q: Did Hanoi expect that the National Liberation Front would win power in South Vietnam?
A: No. Gen. [Vo Nguyen] Giap [commander of the North Vietnamese army] believed that guerrilla warfare was important but not sufficient for victory. Regular military divisions with artillery and armor would be needed. The Chinese believed in fighting only with guerrillas, but we had a different approach. The Chinese were reluctant to help us.  Soviet aid made the war possible. Le Duan [secretary general of the Vietnamese Communist Party] once told Mao Tse-tung that if you help us, we are sure to win; if you don't, we will still win, but we will have to sacrifice one or two million more soldiers to do so.

Q: Was the National Liberation Front an independent political movement of South Vietnamese?
A: No. It was set up by our Communist Party to implement a decision of the Third Party Congress of September 1960. We always said there was only one party, only one army in the war to liberate the South and unify the nation. At all times there was only one party commissar in command of the South.

Q: Why was the Ho Chi Minh trail so important?
A: It was the only way to bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort, involving tens of thousands of soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units.

Q: What of American bombing of the Ho Chi Minh trail?
A: Not very effective. Our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom. Bombing by smaller planes rarely hit significant targets.

Q: What of American bombing of North Vietnam?
A: If all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of times to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest were damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us.

Q: What was the purpose of the 1968 Tet Offensive?
A: To relieve the pressure Gen. Westmoreland was putting on us in late 1966 and 1967 and to weaken American resolve during a presidential election year.

Q: What about Gen. Westmoreland's strategy and tactics caused you concern?
A: Our senior commander in the South, Gen. Nguyen Chi Thanh, knew that we were losing base areas, control of the rural population and that his main forces were being pushed out to the borders of South Vietnam. He also worried that Westmoreland might receive permission to enter Laos and cut the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
In January 1967, after discussions with Le Duan, Thanh proposed the Tet Offensive. Thanh was the senior member of the Politburo in South Vietnam. He supervised the entire war effort. Thanh's struggle philosophy was that "America is wealthy but not resolute," and "squeeze tight to the American chest and attack." He was invited up to Hanoi for further discussions. He went on commercial flights with a false passport from Cambodia to Hong Kong and then to Hanoi. Only in July was his plan adopted by the leadership. Then Johnson had rejected Westmoreland's request for 200,000 more troops. We realized that America had made its maximum military commitment to the war. Vietnam was not sufficiently important for the United States to call up its reserves. We had stretched American power to a breaking point. When more frustration set in, all the Americans could do would be to withdraw; they had no more troops to send over.
Tet was designed to influence American public opinion. We would attack poorly defended parts of South Vietnam cities during a holiday and a truce when few South Vietnamese troops would be on duty. Before the main attack, we would entice American units to advance close to the borders, away from the cities. By attacking all South Vietnam's major cities, we would spread out our forces and neutralize the impact of American firepower. Attacking on a broad front, we would lose some battles but win others. We used local forces nearby each target to frustrate discovery of our plans. Small teams, like the one which attacked the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, would be sufficient. It was a guerrilla strategy of hit-and-run raids. [lloks like a re-writing of history with the benefit of hindsight]

Q: What about the results?
A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was.

Q: What of Nixon?
A: Well, when Nixon stepped down because of Watergate we knew we would win. Pham Van Dong [prime minister of North Vietnam] said of Gerald Ford, the new president, "he's the weakest president in U.S. history; the people didn't elect him; even if you gave him candy, he doesn't dare to intervene in Vietnam again." We tested Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long in January 1975. When Ford kept American B-52's in their hangers, our leadership decided on a big offensive against South Vietnam.

Q: What else?
A: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.


[ Parent ]
Michael, you are a nutter (0.00 / 0)
Or nutbar, the term I prefer.



[ Parent ]
Ad Hominem Much??? (4.00 / 1)
Your attack on Franklin is self-refuting to any reasonably educated person--you don't use ad hominem attacks when you have something better at your disposal.

As for Ramsey Clark, no one does anything more than mention him in passing.  And, in fact, your point only strengthens Lembcke's: why Fonda and not Clark?

As for Ho Chi Minh, no less than his OSS handlers advised their higher-ups that we should ally ourselves with and support him.  Instead, we chose to ally with Japanese collaborators.  Our refusal to work with him is surely at least partly responsible for what the North Vietnam was like after his death 30 years later.  And, then, of course, there's the fact that the vast majority of the Vietnamese people supported his leadership, and that we deliberated undermined the 1954 peace treaty because we knew that he'd be elected overwhelmingly if free and fair elections were held, as was supposed to happen.

Finally, regarding Fonda herself, the FTA tours were extremely fresh and popular at a time when Bob Hope was widely regarded as an old fogey and war apologist.  Later reports now say that this was grossly unfair, and that Hope actually hated the war (Bob Hope, a DFH, who knew?) but he did not present this way in public.  Fonda did, and troops flocked to the anti-war tour she fronted.

Furthermore, in a pasage I did not quote Lembcke wrote:

in the first thirty POW memoirs, those prior to 1990, by which time "Hanoi Jane" was a widely-used phrase, I found only two references to Fonda and one was positive.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Heh, Paul, H. Bruce Franklin... (0.00 / 0)
   Was a stone cold Stalinist. Would you call Trotsky a "Red-Baiter"?
   

[ Parent ]
Bruce Franklin on Uncle Joe Stalin (0.00 / 0)
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/20...
http://www.owu.edu/~jawaldma//...
Introduction to The Essential Stalin: Major Theoretical Writings, 1905-52 by
Bruce Franklin (Garden City, New York: Anchor Books, 1972), pp. 1-38.

I used to think of Joseph Stalin as a tyrant and butcher who jailed and killed
millions, betrayed the Russian revolution, sold out liberation struggles around
the world, and ended up a solitary madman, hated and feared by the people of
the Soviet Union and the world. Even today I have trouble saying the name
"Stalin" without feeling a bit sinister.

But, to about a billion people today, Stalin is the opposite of what we in the
capitalist world have been programmed to believe. The people of China, Vietnam,
Korea, and Albania consider Stalin one of the great heroes of modern history, a
man who personally helped win their liberation. This belief could be dismissed
as the product of an equally effective brainwashing from the other side, except
that the workers and peasants of the Soviet Union, who knew Stalin best, share
this view. For almost two decades the Soviet rulers have systematically
attempted to make the Soviet people accept the capitalist world's view of
Stalin, or at least to forget him. They expunged him from the history books,
wiped out his memorials, and even removed his body from his tomb. Yet,
according to all accounts, the great majority of the Soviet people still revere
the memory of Stalin, and bit by bit they have forced concessions. First it was
granted that Stalin had been a great military leader and the main anti-fascist
strategist of World War II. Then it was conceded that he had made important
contributions to the material progress of the Soviet people. Now a recent
Soviet film shows Stalin, several years before his death, as a calm, rational,
wise leader.

But the rulers of the Soviet Union still try to keep the people actually from
reading Stalin. When they took over, one of their first acts was to ban his
writings. They stopped the publication of his collected works, of which
thirteen volumes had already appeared, covering the period only through 1934.
This has made it difficult throughout the world to obtain Stalin's writings in
the last two decades of his life. Recently the Hoover Institute of Stanford
University, whose purpose, as stated by its founder, Herbert Hoover, is to
"demonstrate the evils of the doctrines of Karl Marx," completed the final
volumes in Russian so that they would be available to Stanford's team of émigré
anti-Communists. (In preparing this volume, I was able to use the Hoover
collection of writings by and about Stalin only by risking jail, directly
violating my banishment by court injunction from this citadel of the Free
World.)

The situation in the U.S. is not much different from that in the U.S.S.R. In
fact the present volume represents the first time since 1955 that a major
publishing house in either country has authorized the publication of Stalin's
works. U.S. capitalist publishers have printed only Stalin's wartime diplomatic
correspondence and occasional essays, usually much abridged, in anthologies.
Meanwhile his enemies and critics are widely published. Since the early 1920s
there have been basically two opposing lines claiming to represent Marxism-
Leninism, one being Stalin's and the other Trotsky's. The works of Trotsky are
readily available in many inexpensive editions. And hostile memoirs, such as
those of Khrushchev and Svetlana Stalin, are actually serialized in popular
magazines.

The suppression of Stalin's writings spreads the notion that he did not write
anything worth reading. Yet Stalin is clearly one of the three most important
historical figures of our century, his thought and deeds still affecting our
daily lives, considered by hundreds of millions today as one of the leading
political theorists of any time, his very name a strongly emotional household
word throughout the world. Anyone familiar with the development of Marxist-
Leninist theory in the past half century knows that Stalin was not merely a man
of action. Mao names him "the greatest genius of our times," calls himself
Stalin's disciple, and argues that Stalin's theoretical works are still the
core of world Communist revolutionary strategy...


[ Parent ]
Interesting That You Only Post At Open Left To Do A David Horowitz Routine (0.00 / 0)
I just checked, and you haven't commented here since May, when you tried to paint the Sandinistas as Stalinist puppets, despite the fact that they only turned to the Soviet Union after the Reagan Administration pressured our European allies not to give them any sort of support.

Before that and another comment on the same diary, the last time you posted here was on July 16, 2007.

So, I think it's fair to say that your only purpose in coming to Open Left is to red-bait.

This diary series must be working.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
sandinistas (0.00 / 0)
  Man, you really have a severe case of denial. Read the autobiographies of Sandinistas like the fellow who wrote, "Fire From the Mountain, " or Roger Miranda, "Inside the Sandinistas, " Transaction Books? One of my teachers at CSUN, the leftist Jesuit, Blase Bonpane was very upfront with our classes back in 79 that the FSLN had received training in Cuba, arms from the East Germans whose Stasi trained the FSLN regimes intelligence agency.
   

[ Parent ]
Ah Yes, Guilt By Association! (4.00 / 3)
Always a winner!

Because, you know, almost all other revolutionary movements of the left or right get all their guns and ammo from the Girl Scouts!

What I'm referring to, of course, was how the Sandinista government tried to align itself once it came to power, when it had (or thought it had) maximum freedom to forge the alliances it saw as being in the best interests of the country.

And who did the US choose to ally with?  A gang of murderous thugs left over from the deposed dictatorship, and the Argentinian regime overseeing their infamous "dirty war"--a situation that only changed when our alliance with Britain during the Falklands War infuriated the Argentines, who then broke it off.

Our thugs are always of the better sort.  Noreiga, of course, was one of the replacements after the Argentines left.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Paul (0.00 / 0)
I got a ten spot sez this is our boy Michael:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/p...

Fess up. Mikey, is that you? I'm like the NSA, but with a smiley face!

Mikey gave 5 stars to...

Doughy Pantload's book!


[ Parent ]
I Think You've Perfectly Demonstrated The Either/Or Mentality I'm Writing About (0.00 / 0)
And for that, I thank you.

It's precisely this sort of rigid either/or thinking--including projecting it willy-nilly onto others--that lies at the root of the cultural matrix Lembcke is writing about and critiquing.

Thanks for showing us how virulent it remains to this day.

As if we needed the reminding.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
As a rank & file member of "the enemy within" (4.00 / 2)
who still has one of his old FTA T-shirts in a drawer somewhere, I thank you for this, Paul.  

Somebody needs to burn a few of those POW-MIA flags.  Bet that would make Barack denounce us in a hurry, rather than try to educate anybody on how or why the whole thing is a lie.

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


POW's (0.00 / 0)
   H. Bruce Franklin still hasn't replied to a request to review this book.
An Enormous Crime: The Definitive Account of American POWs Abandoned in Southeast Asia  by Bill Hendon and Elizabeth Stewart (Hardcover - May 29, 2007)

[ Parent ]
There Are HUNDREDS Of Book Review Requests I Haven't Responded To (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Hiya, Paul (4.00 / 2)
Stop digging yourself in a whole (sic), will ya?

;-)

I think Col. Lang claims he was spit on by some antiwar types in Hawaii back in the day. I believe Pat but even he agrees it was an isolated case, not an epidemic. That's just a myth, like the whole POW MIA scam.

Col. Joe Schlatter.

http://www.miafacts.org/

The world's formost authority, he was the chief investigator for the Kerry-McCain committee and Viet vet himself. A fine Yellow Dog Democrat.

And the alleged Bui Tin interview...

Hmmmm?

Bui Tin served as an interrogator at Hoa Lo prison (the Hanoi Hilton in POW venacular). While serving in that capacity, he interrogated John McCain [1] He told David Hackworth that McCain was a "special prisoner," and also told other POWs that McCain was never tortured. He told Charles Bates, director of a governmental watchdog group, "No, McCain was never tortured. He was too important. We called him the prince. He received special treatment."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

Can we trust him? How about McCain?


[ Parent ]
The whole hole (0.00 / 0)
Yea, my fingers tend to type with only general direction from the head.  If the spell checker misses it, I'm toast.  Until I hit Post, of course.  Then the error is blatantly obvious.  You'd think the Preview would help more, but alas, no.

[ Parent ]
No sweat, Mark (0.00 / 0)
Paul is an old friend and I was just funnin' ya both. It's his whole (sic). Let him dig if he wants. I think history is very important and debunking myths, junk history and revisionist bullshit is crucial to understanding where we are and how we got here and helping us get to where we want to go. As Santayana said:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


[ Parent ]
You are an Enormous Boob. (0.00 / 0)
That is all.

[ Parent ]
Not you, Paul (4.00 / 2)
Michael and Hendon.

Even Ronnie Reagan thought Hendon was "off his rocker".

Reagan dissed N.C. lawmaker in his diary

http://www.newsobserver.com/65...


[ Parent ]
Great Catch! (0.00 / 0)
You're always coming up with these.

So our own private David Horowitz picks someone that Ronald Reagan considered nuts.

Priceless!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
heh (4.00 / 1)
Leave it to me to find the nutbars.

It takes one to... nah, scratch that.


[ Parent ]
I can't tell the difference (4.00 / 4)
I no longer can tell the difference from when you are making a valid point for today and when you are just being defensive about your childhood.

Your biggest problem is you seem to be digging yourself in a whole.  If Obama's central point is we need to leave the 60's behind us, all you done is prove him correct.

Fighting over Jane Fonda is exactly the kind of crap we simply don't, and shouldn't care about any more.

Learn how not to let the right back us into these traps again -- learn from history.  But don't make fighting these ancient battles the center of anything important.

You remind me of my late father-in-law who was upset kids these days didn't know all about each and every battle fought in WWII.

The worst part of this series is the current right has tried to smear the current anti-war movement the same way it smeared the movement in the 60's, but it has largely failed.  And it failed largely because we've learned to be over-cautious in praising our troops and made damn sure no one could say we blamed the troops and have it resonate.  Sure, they've tried to say we blame them, but they've failed.

But you don't give any credit to the tactical changes made.  But that is how you learn from history.  Not this stuff.


As I recall re: the troops (4.00 / 2)
The big factor that was discussed during the Vietnam War itself was that the vets returning from WWII were treated as conquering heroes, with parades etc.  There were two definite ends to the war with VE Day and VJ Day, and then they all came home.  They came home from Europe and Asia in giant troopships, all together for days at sea, during which they could decompress and reflect on  their experiences, talk together etc.  And they were welcomed as heroes.

In the case of Vietnam, troops were rotated in for one year tours in-country, then out.  They came home singly or in small groups, on planes, often to a quick reimmersion in American life.  The VA services were inadequate, though not as deliberately so as today.  There were no parades, and they came home to a divided country.  Many of them felt unappreciated, I think it is fair to say, and the problems of drugs and PTSD were huge for many.  Services were inadequate.  Many joined the counterculture, many never really recovered, or not for years.  So in that sense society as a whole did not treat the vets very well, not nearly as well as after WWII, and the left has indeed been trying to learn from that, maybe going to the other extreme at times of not criticizing the military enough when warranted, especially the top brass.  

I fervently hope that before I die we have an election in which the '60s do not play a role.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Thanks Mimi, But (4.00 / 1)
the 1860s are not going to disappear from our elections for at least another generation at best.  So keep fit!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Well, if my 95-year-old mother is any indication (4.00 / 1)
I have another 30 years to go, but only 20 of them with all my wits about me.  Sigh.

With all the problems that lie ahead of us, I'd like to see more thought given to the future, and to young people's aspirations and ideas for it.  But that's just me.  You are right, in some ways we are still refighting the Civil War, so maybe no such luck.  But still . . . . Maybe I'll go see Wall-E.  Two friends today recommended it, and so did Frank Rich.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
I can't agree, Mark. (4.00 / 1)
But that is how you learn from history.  Not this stuff.

I don't think Paul is arguing for making this kind of issue the centerpiece of the current campaign, but how can you talk about learning from history when you manifestly don't want to hear about any of "this stuff"?

But, okay, let's look at a recent publishing phenomenon that does have some undoubted pedagogical value for today's progressives.  "Nixonland" by Rick Perlstein.  Among many other points, Perlstein makes essentially the same point as Paul here - Fonda was not, initially, wildly unpopular with the troops.  Perlstein is clearly unimpressed throughout the book with the sixties and seventies left's sense of strategy and tactics, but, he doesn't stint the facts.

The point is not to emulate Jane Fonda but to understand what happened to her and us.  Then we can devise tactics.



sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Let Me Clarify (4.00 / 1)
My immediate point is that we're fighting over Jane Fonda, whether we realize it or not.  And we're much better off realizing it, because then we've got a chance to get it right.

But my larger point--which will become clear in the next diary (or two)--is that our whole concept of what is possible and what is necessary in order to secure ourselves and our world is dramatically misguided as a result of buying into what's behind these particular forms.

The worst part of this series is the current right has tried to smear the current anti-war movement the same way it smeared the movement in the 60's, but it has largely failed.
 

Has it?  What's just happened?  Didn't Obama once again smear MoveOn in his latest speech?  And haven't the Dems once again given Bush a blank check?  And--worse still--isn't, indeed, quite likely that Obama will simply try to do in Afghanistan much the same sort of thing that has failed in Iraq?  (Though, of course, with a great deal more reality-based orientation within the big box of shared cultural delusions?)

You don't have to agree with all my questioning in the previous paragraph to recogize that there's still a very significant open question here.  You may hope it's all been resolved, and I wish I could agree with you.  But I'd be far less than honest not to lay out the reasons behind my doubts.  And that's what I am doing here.



"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Opportunity Cost (0.00 / 0)
You don't have to agree with all my questioning in the previous paragraph to recogize that there's still a very significant open question here.

I actually think this mega-series on hegemony and the culture war is the most important and significant thing I've read on this site since I started coming here regularly a few months back.  So I certainly understand the significance.

I just find it extremely frustrating that when it comes to the 60's, you can't help but get very defensive and sidetracked.  There is so much that can be discussed on what we should do now and you seem to keep missing your own point.

I'd love to see, for example, an edit of Obama's speech -- how could the same speech making the same broad points be changed to not fall into these traps?  Or is the problem too deep?  That is a worthy debate.  Jane Fonda is interesting and all that, but just not worth the time in my opinion.


[ Parent ]
This Is A Great Question, Mark (0.00 / 0)
And I think I'll try to conclude my series by answering it.  It would be a very fitting ending.

As for me & the 60s, I understand why you have the impression you do.  Refuting all the BS lies about the 60s may well leave the impression that I don't think anything then was done wrong.  But that's far from the case.  It's just that the rightwing lies are far more political significant, and hence I have much more reason to focus on them. Plus, of course, there are plenty of other folks around who are happy to criticize the 60s all day and all night long.

You want some criticism of the 60s?  How's this:

  • The Monkees.
  • "Sugar, Sugar".
  • "Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, I've Got Love In My Tummy".
  • William Shatner doing Bob Dylan.
  • "The Eve of Destruction".

I'm going to stop now, because it's just too painful.

In short, having lived through the 60s, and having the sort of critical attitude I have, I had plenty to criticize at the time, and have had plenty to add to since then.

There was the time, for example, when I attended an Alan Watts lecture on "The Art of the Put-On" with a bunch of friends, all of us wearing Colonel Sanders masks.  Afterwards, on our way home, I wandered into a local Democratic Party HQ and started ranting at them for stealing all my chickens and running them for office.  Some things change, some things never do.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
It's not a question (4.00 / 2)
of leaving the 60s behind.  I would argue that the minutiae of what Jane Fonda or John Kerry did or didn't do is irrelevant - it certainly isn't central to Paul's point here.  What is central is how the right did it, and how to effectively fight back.  How to combat the myths, because otherwise we're stuck with them for more than a generation, as now.

On the one hand, you suggest that the current right "failed" to smear the anti-Iraq movement, but in the same breath said

And [they] failed largely because we've learned to be over-cautious in praising our troops and made damn sure no one could say we blamed the troops and have it resonate.  Sure, they've tried to say we blame them, but they've failed.

1) They haven't failed yet.  Wait until the war ends.  Every marketplace bomb will be blamed on the Dems and and the anti-war movement.  And they'll convince a large part of the population with their arguments.  The foundations of those arguments are already in place, as Paul details here.  That's what we have to combat.

2) Suggesting that the current anti-war movement has been more successful by buying into right-wing frames by "being over-cautious in praising our troops" hasn't really worked either.  The protests in 2002-2003 were flatly ignored.  The masses of Americans haven't been convinced that the war is a total sham, they've just come to realize it's pointless.  It's tepid opposition.  Polls don't show a radicalized populace, just one that's grown tired of the cost and futility.  We can sing hosannas to the troops' generous nature all day, but the mechanics of the popular mind don't go in for rational arguments.  Saying "I support the troops but..." isn't a winning formula at this point.  Buying into the patriotism frame has to go.


[ Parent ]
Slightly OT but still related (4.00 / 2)
But did anyone catch today's This Week on ABC? The roundtable was all about how McCain was obviously much stronger on Iraq and national security because he supported staying there with large numbers of combat troops indefinitely, and that the only way that Obama could neutralize this was to basically parrot McCain's stances on these issues (which, of course, he increasingly has been) and focus on the economy. The entire panel--none of whom could be called conservative icons (Ted Koppel, Michelle Cottle, Mark Halperin & Jonathan Capehart)--agreed on this, as well as on the need to keep large numbers of combat troops in Iraq for years. There was a surreal feel to the whole discussion, as if a decision had been made within The Village that with the general election campaign underway, it was time to stop indulging the DFH's and start letting it be know that the only acceptable (and winning) stance on these issues was the Bush-Cheney-McCain one, and unserious DFH's be damned. And Obama's been buying into it totally.

Look, I'm not an expert in gambling or con games, but I can tell a set up when I see one. This is clearly one. The only question in my mind is whether Obama's part of it, or simply choosing to play along with or not fight it. In the end it might not matter, but I'm still curious. But when you have, within the span of a few days, a sudden "consensus" emerge in the media that FISA is a good bill, that the occupation of Iraq must go on, that Iran is a grave threat, and that no serious candidate for the presidency can possibly disagree with this, or win if they did, well, color me paranoid but I see a big con unfolding (which is just a ramping-up of an ongoing con) that Obama is either a part of, or choosing to go along with.

And what's up with all the "Stop criticizing delicate Obama or he will LOSE!" diaries on DailyKos, some by relatively well-known members? Are we being punk'd or pwned?

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


Well, You're Have Right, Kovie (4.00 / 2)
It is related, but there's nothing the least bit off-topic about this at all.

This is a direct consequence of the way that the right has grabbed control of the Vietnam War discourse in complete and total denial of the historical facts.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Boy What ever Happened To "Preview Is Your Friend?" (4.00 / 1)
I swear that in preview it looked like I had written "Well, You're Half Right, Kovie.

Let me try that again:

    We'll Your Halve Rite, Ko-vee"

There!  That's moore lyke iT!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Have a, Nagila half off... (0.00 / 0)
La la la la la la la la...

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
I thought he was holey right. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
What was most shocking (but not really) (4.00 / 1)
was that these weren't far-right lapdogs like Krauthammer or Goldberg, but allegedly center-"left" (stop laughing, I used quotes) pundits and journalists who are supposed to have a more nuanced view on the issues. But they were lockstep parroting RW talking points on them, and it was surreal. It was like they just came out of that famous boardroom scene in Network where the Ned Beatty character tells them how the world actually works, and that they'd better fall in line FAST. And it's like Obama was in there with them.

Any hopes of initiating genuine progressive reforms from the executive branch pretty much died these past few weeks. If it's to happen, it'll have to come from congress (by electing more progressives and pressuring the rest), and outside forces such as the ACLU and grass and net roots activists. So much for our alleged "New Hope. More like his dad, by the day, if you know what I mean. WE are that "New Hope". And a small number of progressive Dems.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
Time To Resssurect the Ghost oF William Fulbright, I'm Afraid (0.00 / 0)
for when Obama's continuation of the war on terror in Afghanistan starts looking like Iraq does today.

Shudder.

I'll try my darnedest to stop it from getting to that, but I don't have much hope.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
it already looks like it, only without the oil (0.00 / 0)
it's way past time to question the war in Afghanistan too.  Hasn't Barack said he will draw down troop levels in Iraq to ramp them up in Afghanistan?

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
Yes, Barack Has Said Precisely That (4.00 / 1)
And, of course, the ultimate problem is that 19th Century imperialism is, like, deader than the dodos.  But we keep thinking that somehow we can still make it work, if only we find the right place to do it.

Hmmm, maybe Bush's idea about going to Mars wasn't that stupid after all.  What if imperialists actually went somewhere that really was uninhabited?  That just might work!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Minor quibble (0.00 / 0)
You wrote that the focus on POWs was unprecedented in any culture up to that point.

I can think of one from slightly before - British POWs in WW2. I can't claim any great expertise on this - luckily none of my family ever experienced it and those who were around then are no longer in any position to vividly remember much of the years 1939-45 - but I have watched enough Saturday afternoon matinee TV like The Great Escape and Bridge on the River Kwai to know that it was certainly a focus afterwards.

It seems to have been a slightly different thing - Britain was notionally victorious, even if effectively bankrupt and no longer a first-rank power - but I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the similarities and differences.

Certainly the focus on strength of will and the need to escape to rejoin the fight is significant, and a degree of regret over the loss of empire is also visible, but I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


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