Millenials Aren't Enough Like Boomers

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 14:39


The latest in a long line of aging, center-left laments that young people these days do not precisely resemble a stereotypical image of 1960's left-wing American political activism comes from Sally Cohn in the Christian Science Monitor:

Coming together in local committees, led mainly by young people, they used the tools of face-to-face community organizing, developing shared strategies to address shared problems. And they took shared action; in sit-ins and Freedom Rides, they formed groups that were more than the sum of individual parts.

By contrast, Internet activism is individualistic. It's great for a sense of interconnectedness, but the Internet does not bind individuals in shared struggle the same as the face-to-face activism of the 1960s and '70s did. It allows us to channel our individual power for good, but it stops there.

There is nothing new about this lament. Last year, Al Gore wondered why "there aren't rings of young people blocking bulldozers and preventing them from constructing coal-fired power plants." Two months later, Thomas Friedman pined:

Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy didn't change the world by asking people to join their Facebook crusades or to download their platforms. Activism can only be uploaded, the old-fashioned way - by young voters speaking truth to power, face to face, in big numbers, on campuses or the Washington Mall. Virtual politics is just that - virtual.

The sentiment that young people these days just rely too much on the Internet and are not properly emulating, in precise terms, now stereotypical images of left-wing activism from the third quarter of the twentieth century, has been around for a while. Eight years ago, I remember the poet Ron Silliman saying a variation on the same theme when he was the guest instructor in a graduate seminar I was taking. It is a bizarre and aggravating charge that willfully ignores all of the following:

Chris Bowers :: Millenials Aren't Enough Like Boomers
  1. The civil rights and anti-war rallies / acts of civil disobedience that took place from 1957-1973 were attended by people of all ages, not just young people. While no figures are available, it is probably safe to assume that more than half of the people who participated in those protests were actually over the age of 30.
  2. Not everyone who grew up in the 1957-1973 time period took part in direct, left-wing activism. As much as the time period is often remembered for its rallies and activism, the truth is that most young people from that time period were not left-wing activism. In fact, according to a 2005 study by GQR, Boomers are actually-by a long, long way--the most self-identified Republican generation in a century.
  3. Boomers were not the main protesters in the 1950's and 1960's. In 1969, the oldest Boomers were only 23 years old. As such, great civil rights actions, from sit-ins to the Freedom Riders, that largely took place before 1965, were conducted almost entirely by pre-Boomer generations. Certainly, the organizers were all from earlier generations.
  4. There are still big protest marches. For example, the largest coordinated marches in the history of the world took place on February 15th, 2003, to protest the looming Iraq war.
  5. Anyone can protest now, despite their age. If people are still dissatisfied by the amount of protests and acts of civil disobedience, they should keep in mind that anyone can engage in such actions, not just people under the age of 30. Hard to see how the blame rests on a single age group.
  6. While it is quaint to pine for an age of activism past, the truth is that the Internet is not going away anymore than TV was supposedly going to die off in the 1950's. As such, rather than complaining about it, people would be wise to figure out how to better adopt activism with it.
  7. While I constantly read about these young people who only and ever interact with other humans online, I haven't actually met any of those people. This even goes for me, despite making a living by writing online for more than four years now.

What I really wonder about is why are statements that assign values, perspectives and lifestyle habits to people based on their age not considered offensive--or at least just stupid--in American political discourse? As Paul Rosenberg noted last week, assigning derogatory values, such as not being properly politically active, to entire groups of people based on the identity characteristics of that group is, in fact, a form of hate speech. This is a pretty mild form of hate speech to be sure, but it is still prejudicial, stereotypical and, even though it comes from progressives, actually conservative.

Generational warfare and generational boosting are two sides of the same prejudicial coin. They are also both willfully and woefully inaccurate. It just isn't true that Boomers were an entire generation of DFH's who grew up as Freedom Riders and began organizing massive anti-war protests at the age of 16. It also isn't true that everyone under 30 spends 12 hours on Facebook everyday, and never encounters other human beings expect online. Just as there are lots of apathetic and / or conservative Boomers, there are lots of apathetic and / or conservative Millenials. To be sure, there are somewhat fewer conservative Millenials than Boomers, but that is largely a function of the younger generation being far less white, Christian than the older generation, not because of a difference in either age or Internet usage.

I honestly don't know where the impulse to broadly assign personality characteristics to Americans based on their birthdays comes from, but I would like to see a lot less of it. It is surprising how openly such stereotypes are tolerated in our discourse, even as other forms of prejudice continue to fall out of fashion.  


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My grandfather once told me something interesting .. (0.00 / 0)
that the rich put up with the middle class .. because it keeps most people sedated(meaning keeps them out of the streets with torches and pitchforks) .. at the same time .. they are torn .. because of their pursuit for ever more profit and wealth ... so the rich have a hard time reconciling that

As for what Chris specifically mentions here .. I sometimes wonder why there wasn't more protest .. is it because most people are a little better off?  is it because most people don't have a direct stake in the war?  Is it fear of being beaten & locked up by the cops?  Is it because .. despite the protests .. the war didn't stop because of it?  I don't know .. I wonder when a protest would be big enough that it would garner attention on the nightly news


Attention (0.00 / 0)
"I wonder when a protest would be big enough that it would garner attention on the nightly news."

I think that might contain the answer to your question right there.  Personally, I have been to a couple rallies/protests, but I've never believed them to be effective.  The media isn't that interested and politicians are even less interested.  They don't appear to have much of any impact on actual policy outcome, so what's the point?

Furthermore, oftentimes when those protests DO garner media attention, they are portrayed in a negative light or cast as the actions of crazies or fringe elements rather than as mainstream protests.

I think protests can be enjoyable and satisfying, even motivating, but their effectiveness is questionable.  I imagine that's the belief of others, as well, and at least part of the reason we don't see as many.


[ Parent ]
Definitely (4.00 / 1)
Marches are totally overlooked - remember the half million who marched in New York the day of GOP Convention in 2004?  Nobody covered it.

What isn't overlooked is Al Wynn's defeat or Obama's fundraising.


[ Parent ]
Yeah .. (0.00 / 0)
What isn't overlooked is Al Wynn's defeat or Obama's fundraising.

but .. it took two tries to dump Al Wynn .. and defeating incumbents is never easy(see HoJo) .. and Obama still gets a lot of them money from corporate interests


[ Parent ]
My point is that internet activism is sophisticated (4.00 / 2)
And that its effectiveness continues to hone as it comes of age.

[ Parent ]
I believe you are right .. (0.00 / 0)
the question is ... what would get politicians to act in the way we want them to?  elections aren't that easy .. marches and protests can be easily ignored .. so it makes me wonder

[ Parent ]
Not Easy (4.00 / 2)
Sadly, it's a bitch trying to change a corrupt, entrenched system.  I think we're all aware of that.  If it were simple, we'd be basking in the glow of a fair, just and sustainable America.  Obviously, we're not.

I think it takes all kinds of actions, and marches and rallies and protests all have their place.  At the very least, they can function as outlets, as motivators, as base-builders and as places to meet people and network.  But they aren't the be-all, end-all and it will take a million other actions, small and large.

Really, it's about changing the minds of hundreds of millions of people.  It's about millions and billions of small actions, adjustments to lifestyle, and changes in thinking.  And only a minority of those changes are directly political.  It's a big project and it will never be done.  The hope is simply that there's enough progress at the end of the day that it doesn't all feel as thought it was purposeless.


[ Parent ]
Effectiveness of protests. (4.00 / 1)
I remember when I was undergrad at Berkeley in the '90's, there was an unceasing quantity of protests.

At UCLA, on the other hand, it was considered shocking, by my friends there, when Latino students staged a hunger strike against the closure of the Chicano Studies department. The UCLA protest achieved its goal; the Berkeley protests, as memory serves, never did.

    It isn't a bad thing to protest in carefully targeted  efforts, rather than unceasingly. Have Friedman, Cohn, Silliman, et al. never heard of Move On? I mean, duh. Move On, for one, is exceedingly good at smartly targeting its group efforts, rather than negating the power of its voice through redundancy.  


[ Parent ]
Why do protests work in other nations? (0.00 / 0)
Ukraine, for example, when the opposition was able to reverse an election results by taking to the streets?

Does your analysis pertain ONLY to protests in the USA? If so, why should we be so different?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I Don't Know (0.00 / 0)
I wish I did.  I don't really know much of anything about Ukraine.  It sounds like there is, in general, a greater attention to the wishes of the people.  Perhaps there is less of a corrupt influence of money and access within their political system?  A better and more responsive media?  Different cultural attitudes, beliefs, and ideologies?  A combination of all of those?

[ Parent ]
Maybe its a matter of commitment? (0.00 / 0)
Here's a personal account of the Orange Revolution

http://www.theorangerevolution...

What if a similar response had been promoted after the 2000 US presidential election?  Could such a thing EVER happen in the USA, or are we too ready to end the protest and get back to the re-runs of Simpsons, or Battle Star Galatica?  Too ready to get on-line and discuss the pros and cons of the street protest, too ready to go back to sleep?

Maybe we are just too damned comfortable.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Economic insecurity (4.00 / 3)
Paradoxically, it may be both the thrall of consumerism and the economic insecurity and inequality  I wrote about earlier today.  The '60s were mostly a period of expansion, and people graducating from college for the most part found jobs plentiful.  It was common to take a year off to travel or drop out or whatever.  And people didn't have debt when they graduated, because state universities were practically free except for living expenses.  Things are just so much more economically insecure now that I think it discourages some of the overt activism, let alone revolutionary protest.  That's why it is so heartening to see people get involved in camapaigns in such numbers now.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
different kind of protest (0.00 / 0)
the late sixties were mostly about self-indulgence. Today's protests are mercifully free of that.

[ Parent ]
I've seen plenty of self-indulgence at contemporary protests. (0.00 / 0)
Are you really going to try to argue otherwise?  

[ Parent ]
This is exactly the kind of (4.00 / 1)
generational generalization that Chris is talking about.

The most famous and widely-covered of the protests of Vietnam Veterans Against the War happened in the time period you disparage.

These were NOT self-indulgent protests.

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]
They were more threatening to the state (4.00 / 3)
Western governments do not fear their people. They do not believe that we will make a serious effort to overthrow them or that such an effort could possibly succeed. After all, the last demonstrations in an Anglophone industrialised nation to have completely changed government policy were the Poll Tax Riots in the early 1990s here in Britain, and it was mostly the widespread refusal to pay that did for them.

In Ukraine, that certainty was not there. You had an angry crowd, led by opposition leaders, it could very easily have turned nasty and the economic situation was dicey enough that the loyalty of the soldiery could not be relied upon, nor would the international ramifications have been pleasant.

The worst possible outcome in the US isn't as bad as the worst possible outcome in the Ukraine, so such protests can be ignored.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
I suspect you are correct (0.00 / 0)
It begs a question: What shall become of the street protest in the US?

I'd rather not contemplate the route of making the consequences of the protest more dire for the government/corporations.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Dire consequences through better organizing (4.00 / 1)
One way to make the consequences more dire for the government/corporations would be if the police were less reliable in defending the elite. We've done a poor job of organizing the police to be on our side -- even though they should be against the war, in favor of labor, in favor of protecting the planet. Most officers have more in common with us than they do with CEOs from ExxonMobil and other members of the power elite, and yet they arrest protesters (and don't arrest Karl Rove, Harriet Myers, and other blatant lawbreakers). If the police were on our side and followed their consciences instead of orders, then our demonstrations would go a lot better.

[ Parent ]
Good Point (0.00 / 0)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Governments fear people taking to the streets (4.00 / 1)
But the numbers have to be very large, especially relative to the population.  And there is always the risk of violent crackdown, as in Burma or China (Tienanmen Sq).

I think people also have to have a combination of rising expectations and sufficient desperation to risk everything in massive street demonstrations.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 3)
Protest as choreographed walkthroughs doesn't do much. Protest that actually impedes the machine (paraphrasing Mario Savio) gets the government's attention. Protest that impedes the machine and accepts the risk and the reality of violent crackdown nonviolently renders governments confused and sometimes malleable. Protest by people who have a lot on the line is more effective than protest by people whose comfort is not threatened.

Protest that makes the government absurd also often serves a purpose.

Protest requires timely creativity and an organized groundswell of popular movement behind it. That's rare.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Most other places (0.00 / 0)
Democracy- even if it's corporate or corrupted sometimes- isn't considered a given. The existence of a representative government on any level is not a given. The loyalty of the military is not a given. Any sort of economic baseline is not a given.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
Is this a good development, or not? (0.00 / 0)
On one hand, we citizens seem to have lost our ability to force political change through public demonstration and protest.

On the other, our situation could be construed as more stable, thus allowing an opportunity to refine the political system.

I'm feeling particularly ambidextrous.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
It seems to me (4.00 / 1)
That it just reduces the range or at least rapidity of potential change. For better or worse.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
Not Just Size (4.00 / 5)
The Montgomery Bus Boycott was an actual economic boycott that almost put the bus company out of business. Because it was having such a big economic effect, it was covered by the media (a little). Many of the sit-ins were also economic boycotts or blockades that directly impacted racist companies.

One of the problems with many demonstrations is that they are not designed very well. Endless rallies and marches are boring and have little impact. But imagine a rally on a Tuesday attended by all the grocery store and restaurant owners in town. If no one could buy food for a day, the media would take notice and the issues would be forced into people's consciousnesses. Or what if it were transport workers or computer operators. But, of course, it is very difficult to organize a boycott/strike like this.

Well-designed protests challenge, inspire, and galvanize people. We need to learn from good organizers how to design and implement good protests instead of just doing the same, poorly-conceived rallies and marches.


[ Parent ]
General Strike (4.00 / 3)
That's how they get things done in Europe.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Sadly, our government (4.00 / 1)
here in the U.S never has to worry about a meaningful General Strike happening because job insecurity is so very, very high here. The last 40 years of union busting has resulted in so few unionized American workers, (and therefore so few workplaces that have to compete with those union jobs), that hardly anyone feels secure enough to participate in even a one day protest.

Until we get some of the oppressive anti-labor laws reversed that make union formation virtually impossible (or which force those few newly organized workplaces to agree to hamstring themselves from the get-go), a General Strike is only a pipe dream. But it's still a dream I have.


[ Parent ]
historically (4.00 / 1)
the strikes preceded the labor laws (and the institutionalized unions), and there's no reason to believe the future holds otherwise.  What we see in the AFL-CIO and Change to Win today and those unions, whatever good they might do, are the product of a social struggle, not their cause.

[ Parent ]
I agree with you (0.00 / 0)
regarding history. What I'm saying is that job fear and insecurity is what's stopping a general strike from happening in the current moment.

What we are fighting against these days is that there are still so many people with just enough material comforts that they don't want to risk what they do have, regardless of how tenuous their hold on it may be. (I think that's the key difference between now and struggles of the past). That, combined with an atmosphere where "be afraid" and "don't rock the boat" is injected into all quarters 24 hours a day, and where the people are willfully misinformed and propagandized by the corporate news services, and an effective general strike now is highly unlikely. The scales will have to be tipped more, one way or another, but probably by a combination of events.

Change to Win today and those unions, whatever good they might do, are the product of a social struggle, not their cause.

Of course. I did not mean to imply otherwise.


[ Parent ]
You have a point, but that fear is tool (4.00 / 1)
of oppression and repression.

We need to confront and overcome that fear.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
and I think that is being done more and more.

I'm only arguing about strategy, and I don't think trying to organize a general strike is a good play right now. Attempting a huge nationwide mass action that ends up having poor participation will set us back more than move us forward. But of course I'm only talking about in this current environment. BushCo could still screw the pooch the badly before he's done that it changes things in a hurry.


[ Parent ]
historically (0.00 / 0)
the strikes preceded the labor laws (and the institutionalized unions), and there's no reason to believe the future holds otherwise.  What we see in the AFL-CIO and Change to Win today and those unions, whatever good they might do, are the product of a social struggle, not their cause.

[ Parent ]
bad labor laws are a reason to strike, no? (0.00 / 0)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
And it has to involve sacrifice (4.00 / 3)
Like people taking off work to protest (strike) and here we not only have too little union protection (compared to Europe) but too much economic insecurity.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Plus (4.00 / 1)
Given how many people get there news mostly or entirely via TV or other incidental sources as opposed to living it, the ability to get reasonable spin on the air is key- one we don't have quite yet.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
In the 60's the marches and protests were covered by the press (4.00 / 2)
They were covered respectfully and as though they meant something.  They knew it mattered and the movement used them as a route into American public opinion.

Walter Cronkite was the person who exemplified the press then,,,not Brit Hume or Tim Russert.

We had a different, less corporate press.  That made a big difference.  The press back then were more like Walter Johnson in the Front Page ( a left wing agigitator play/movie) than the fat, press who see themselves as one of the elite...not one of the Joe's.

So I marched in 2003 about Iraq.  But I knew it wouldn't matter whereas those early protests eventually made a difference in turning the American public against the Vietnam War.  That's not where the change comes from these days.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
The "government" learned some lessons from the 1960-70's.

They worked (in conjunction with corporate sponsors/advocates) to undermine the media's integrity and reputation.  Helped by internal issues, too.

Also at the university level, the concept of education has been replaced by training for a career. Perhaps its an extension of the threatening economics.

Speaking of which, leads us to the "volunteer" military, which disjointed the people fighting the war from a portion of the populace by self-selection.

Its no conspiracy, merely a judicious confluence of mutually beneficial actions that can be summarized during a round of golf, a friendly poker game, or during a bible study group meeting.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Size doesn't matter (0.00 / 0)
It's not about how big a protest is.  I've always maintained that the most effective goal for a protest is to create martyrs who draw sympathy for a cause.  You want to draw an over-reaction from those you protest against.  It isn't enough to just gather a bunch of people, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya.

Personally, I never was interested in rallies and protests because the DFH stereotype is at least partly true.  I've met quite a few activist types who very clearly did not bathe frequently, if at all.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
There are two reasons (4.00 / 1)
I think for the different behavior.

1. This generation has learned a fundamentally different lesson about the role of electoral politics.  Had Gore won, there would have been no Iraqi War.  This fact has tended to simultaneously increase in the eyes of this generation the importance of electoral politics and de-legitimize third party options given the experience with Nader in 2000.  Anyone with passing familiarity with the '68 election can understand how the Vietnam anti-war protesters came to precisely the opposite conclusion.

2. The Iraq anti-war movement went mainstream much earlier than did the 60's anti-war movement.   It had far different leadership which tended to regard demonstrations as ineffective.   I can't find the quote right now, but in early 2003 or late 2002 Markos on DKOS noted his general distaste for demonstrations.  


[ Parent ]
Right on the electoral difference (0.00 / 0)
Vietnam was a Democratic war. Think we'd be electing Dems if Iraq had been a Democratic initiative?

But: in early 2003 or late 2002 Markos on DKOS noted his general distaste for demonstrations.
Was that before or after Markos decided he was against the war? As I remember it, he wasn't sure Iraq was a bad thing until sometime in 2004.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Markos (0.00 / 0)
was always against the War.  DKOS was an anti-war blog when i started reading it in Sept '02.  

[ Parent ]
ever get the feeling (4.00 / 5)
the pundits talk about '60's protest in inverse proportion to having participated in them? And you are quite correct, the baby boomers were children or young teenagers during the civil rights protests.

In anycase, last month we had a HUGE protest, conducted across several cities, against health insurance companies. Any special reason Sally Cohn or Tommy Friedman weren't covering any of those demonstrations?


Boy Howdy! (4.00 / 2)
And the very last thing some folks who were protesting back then actually want is people in their face today.  (Joe Lieberman, anyone?)

I remain proud of my activism in the 1960s, not because it was anything special, but because it reflected an ability to be moved by great leaders, great movements and great ideas--and because I'm still able to be moved today.

But anyone really involved in all that activism knows that it was fraught with problems.  I actually think there's some truth in the point that larger face-to-face efforts have some special benefits, and that there's a certain lack of that today.  But it's purely a matter of degree, there are plenty  of exceptions and--perhaps most importantly--young people today have far less free time and other resources that would enable them to organize as people did in the 1960s, regardless of what they might want to do.

Sure, I think that a better balance of online and on-the-ground activisim is needed.  There are too few examples like the Donna Edwards campaign.  But it's always been the case that getting the right balance of different methods is one of the greatest challenges that organizers and activists face.

In short, the more things change, the more they stay the same--but not in the way that conservatives think.  Even self-styled "progresssive" ones.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why isn't Al Gore standing in front of bulldozers? (4.00 / 10)
That sure would get a lot of press.....

Great post on a great topic (4.00 / 1)
I get pretty irritated by what I see as widespread misconceptions about the Internet generation (which, IMHO, should be the standard term, because what defines us more than that?).

The internet is great at connecting people. In fact, it is the best thing at connecting people in the entire history of people. No, it is not at all like connecting with people at a sit in or even a massive protest. Unlike those methods, our generation gets to connect with people that are different than us. I can discuss politics with people 40 years my senior or 10 years my junior. People with backgrounds and experiences that span the entire variety to be found in this country - and beyond. Somehow, I think this gives me a more powerful form of connectedness than I would have found if I never left the Berkley city limits in the 1960's (or any other clichéd pocket of political enlightenment).

Secondly, the Internet, more than anything, is just full of information. Thomas Freidman, in another fantastic fit of pop-filler journalism, laments my generations failure to speak truth to power. I would argue that spreading these 'truths' is far more important than screaming them in someone's face. If we want society, politics - anything - to change, it is first and foremost a matter of changing people's minds. Ten million informed people will impact the world a lot more than a thousand really loud people. The best way to get people informed is to spread knowledge and the best way to do that is... Duh... The Internet.

I have two pieces of advice for these naysayers. 1) The most informed and connected generation in human history is still in its infancy. Maybe you should wait, watch and learn before you condemn them. And 2) The 1960's ARE OVER AND HAVE BEEN FOR A LONG TIME - so please, just get over it.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


Oh boy!! (4.00 / 2)
Secondly, the Internet, more than anything, is just full of information. Thomas Friedman, in another fantastic fit of pop-filler journalism, laments my generations failure to speak truth to power.

And Little Tommy is one to speak.  When is the last time Tommy spoke truth to power?


[ Parent ]
Tommy IS Power--And He's Deaf (4.00 / 6)
Hence, he makes the mistake of thinking that no one's speaking truth to him.

But, of course, I was involved in the anti-WTO protest movement before 9/11--particularly the Los Angeles Independent Media Center--and I don't exaclty remember Tommy boy being thrilled about us.  In fact, he was one of my favorite targets in the media criticism pieces I wrote back then.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Except, EXCEPT (4.00 / 1)
An awful ot of the folks making use of this interesting an potentially powerful tool called the Internet are Boomers, parents of Boomers, children of Boomers, and grandchildren of Boomers.  

Simply, the Internet is not defined by generation, in the same way that protest or the various tools of protest are not defined by generation.

If the Internet were available in the sixties, the Boomers would have used it.

Simply put, if you are committed to a cause, regardless of your age, you use the tools available to you to advance that cause.  

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]
I realize I'm taking their bait by offering this answer, but (4.00 / 7)
THE DRAFT, assholes.  

It makes a big difference.

And if they tried to draft my generation for an Iraq-Iran war, man, these generation-accusers would see what protest looks like.  

Just the hacker side of the do-not-consent movement would be amazing.

Anyway, like I said, I'm totally rising to their bait here.  Oh well.  


Evolution of protests and generations (4.00 / 1)
The impact of the war and draft were absolutely crucial.

The earliest demonstration I remember was in 1960 and was a protest in San Franciso against the House Un-American Activities Committee.  Demonstrations then started as part of the Civil Rights movement, in the very early 1960's.  First the lunch counter sit-ins and Freedom Rioders, then local demonstrations against businesses that discriminated.  We had a march in San Francisco to protest the GOP convention in 1964 that drew 35,000 people and was considered amazing.  It was an attempted crackdown on organizing on campus for civil rights demonstrations that led to the Free Speech Movement at UC Berkeley in 1964.  And that was the summer of the demonstrations against the Mississippi delegation to the Dem Convention.  These were all small demonstrations and only a tiny minority participated, led by activists from the Silent Generation (born 1944 and before).

The large demonstrations started later, over the war and particularly because of the draft. At that point civil rights demos had run aground over the issue of open housing, and were as likely to be anti-open housing as for, and of course there were a few summers of serious urban riots. Anti-war activism evaporated as the war wound down.  The counter-culture movement (the hippies) started in the summer of 1966, but soon music became the mass event rather than protests as such.  

I do think there is something to the idea propagated by Strauss and Howe that generations that come of age during certain periods take on certain qualities.  I can see the difference between my generation (silent) and those born three or four years after me, when WWII was over.  We are the Woody Allen generation, always with self-doubt, while the Boomers always seem so sure and adamant about their positions.  Much more moral absolutism.  I see more commonalities between Bush and Boomer Lefties in their absolutism than between either and the older compromisers (Silent Gen) like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.  Also the fact that after the terrible experiences of the Depression and War the country went into a paroxysm of domesticity in which children were the center of everything and there were so many of them created a real self-centeredness on the part of especially early Boomers, while my generation was basically told to be quiet because things were so bad (hence the name "Silent").  And I think if today's Gen X reads about the so-called "Lost" Generation of the 1920's they will feel a real kinship, while I see many parallels between the GI Generation and the Millenials or Internet Generation today--connection are hallmarks of both--the "togetherness" of the '50s and networking today, as opposed to the individualism (or self-centeredness) of the Boomers and self-reliance of Gen X.  Anyone who reads Chapter  of "Generations" (written in 1990) predicting the very different reactions to a terror attack by Silent leaders vs Boomer leaders will get the chills.

But this kind of analysis goes only so far, and there are obviously people who don't for the pattern in every generation.  And the generations blur at the margins.  Like analytical tool it both illuminates and obscures.

And Chris is absolutely right that there is real activism today, and it is probably more widespread; it just takes different forms.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
And of course (0.00 / 0)
The '70s saw the women's movement and the environemntal movement, as commented below.  Mass events like Earth Day.  And a different form of "protest" based on trying to change your life.

I think consumerism ate many of the Boomers, though, that and the culture of greed that came in during the 1980's with Reagan.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Great analysis (0.00 / 0)
This seems accurate about generational changes without being condescending or falling for over-generalizations.

[ Parent ]
One reason for the difference (4.00 / 1)
the McGovern reforms of 1972.

It is now possible for insurgent campaigns to beat the establishment.

In his book on the '68 election, Teddy White writes that he did not think RFK could have gotten enough deligates in Chicago to beat Humphrey.  

In the 60's the political system was far less open to challenges to the establishment. Todd Gitlin has an interesting passage in his book on the Sixties.  One day in November '68 he attended a demonstration at San Francisco State.  There were exhortations to occupy the administration buildings, and various other demands about ending the War from the speakers.

What struck him later was that not one speaker mentioned the re-election of Richard Nixon (which had occured the day before).  To the protestors, electorial politics were irrelevant.  

I can't immagine that happening now.  


[ Parent ]
Perhaps, but... (4.00 / 1)
The Vietnam War was started and escalated by liberal Democrats. Richard Nixon ran as a peace candidate against the war candidacy of Humphrey. It wasn't clear that RFK was all that much different from Humphrey and then he was assassinated.

Obama is more liberal than Bush or McCain, but it is not clear that he is all that much more progressive than Humphrey. Kucinich was the progressive insurgent candidate this year -- and look how well his candidacy fared.


[ Parent ]
I get so tired of seeing Baby-boomers exalt their generation (0.00 / 0)
... especially in ways that snidely belittle another one.  For all of their self-congratulatory rhetoric on political activism, I'm not convinced that they actually accomplished all that much.  Especially when compared to the generations before them.  I'm not arguing that my generation has done better- we haven't really proved ourselves yet- I just hope we don't get as full of hot air.

What You Fail To Understand (4.00 / 3)
is that the folks doing all the self-congradulating are the ones who did virtually nothing worth congradulating.

It's just as mistaken to see them as representative of a generation as it is to believe what they're saying about other generations.

Group credit and group blame are largely illusory.  There brief moments when they truly apply, but that's about it.  Even the long-time de facto acceptance of the Bush regimes war crimes and overall lawlessness is far less a matter of individual moral failings than it is a reflection of institutional arrangements that are difficult for most of us to fathom, much less effectively struggle against.  And so there are countless millions of good deeds by good, decent people, that still fail to make the mark on history that would be so unmistakeable that we would notice.

And yet, those good deeds and decent people definitely do exist.

As for the Boomers as a whole--questionable as the group concept may be--I think that we actually did do a whole lot.  But not because we were better.  We just happened be around during harvest time, after many, many generations before us had been planting seeds, and pulling weeds.  They did a whole lot, too.  As are Millenials and others today.

You have to do the work, whether you can see the results right away or not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Stop It (4.00 / 5)
Generations of people don't do things -- individuals and small groups of people do things. So stop the hate speech against Boomers.

Now, if you are interested in knowing how the progressive movement moved forward during the 60s and 70s, consider that the Civil Rights Movement had major victories, the movements to liberate women, gays/lesbians, Chicanos/as-Hispanics, Native Americans, etc were born or reborn and advanced significantly. The environmental movement was born and also had major victories (Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, EPA, ending above-ground nuclear testing). The military-industrial complex was thwarted and the US lost a war (they were unable to win by using nuclear weapons to obliterate Vietnam the way many Right-wingers wanted).

Also, many progressive institutions that we rely on today, like Pacifica radio, were born or significantly built-up. And ideas about how information processing should be done -- that we should have personal computers and an Internet in which every node has equal weight in contrast to IBM owning one big computer that we would all use when they felt like letting us -- were developed and implemented.

These were all major victories that helped transform our world in positive ways. Of course, things didn't turn out as rosy as some people hoped and there were setbacks (and the last 30 years of power elite rule has undone many of our accomplishments). But, at the time, these were earthshaking changes.

But it wasn't because "Boomers" were particularly enlightened or benevolent. It was because a lot of people were very unhappy and wanted change, a few people worked really hard for change, the military draft encouraged a whole lot more to be involved, and the times were such that change could come about. Only that and nothing more.

This battle between the generations is just a media trick to get us to fight with each other instead of doing something useful. So stop it.


[ Parent ]
You Mean To Say That If I Kick Grandpa In The Shins (0.00 / 0)
I don't get a pony?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Point of contention on the last paragraph (0.00 / 0)
I don't necessarily think all generational theory is a bad thing and a media device used to divide and conquer.

I think Howe and Strauss (the big names in research on "Millennials")'s work can be quite discerning, and I do see their framework come to life many times in work with students on a college campus.  

I think that to get the most out of generational theory, you must go into it knowing that, at it's core, the research is there for your benefit.  You get what you want out of it.  You realize that not every single person born within x year and y year takes on the same characteristics.  And, as you note, generations themselves are not responsible for specific actions and deeds. But generations, maturing and aging collectively in a certain culture, can be influenced by the experience.

In the end, we can use generational discourse as an educational tool.  It's not all worthless.


[ Parent ]
Contention with your contention (0.00 / 0)
I don't disagree with anything you said. What I said was that the "battle between the generations is just a media trick". It is this battle that is stupid and non-productive. Analysis is useful. Understanding how people are shaped by their culture is useful. Condemning boomers, Gen-Xers, or Millennials for not doing enough or accomplishing enough is silly and counter-productive.

[ Parent ]
Having grown up in Vermont (2.00 / 2)
I can identify with some of what you are saying.

Personally, if I have to hear one more story about going clean for Gene or the glory days of the SDS, I am growing to scream.

But there is another side to this story.  The truth is that the ability to challenge the establishment is a product of the struggles of the sixties, and certainly to the extent that the counter culture movement focused on personal freedom they can take credit for bequething a freer country than existed before.

I think there is also a tendency to segregate the civil rights movement from what might be called the white left: and I am not so sure that is correct.  

In general I think they were dead wrong about communism, marxism and most things ideological, but then I will get back comments about how the protesters weren't marxists, or alternatively weren't behind what I think of as  marxism (ie the new left).  At this point the conversation, and I have had more than I can count through the years, becomes useless. The veterans of the 60's almost always become incredibly patronizing (you weren't there) and tend to gloss over some of the less desirable aspects (the VC flags, the visits to Hanoi, the weatherunderground). Of course, to criticize the "movement" is tantamount to criticising their child, and I have learned to understand that the topic is not a dry academic exercise for them.  

In the end the conversations around this topic are all very interesting, and rather useless.  The Internet exists.  Communism fell. Opposition to the War is widespread.  The Democratic Party is at least on some level more responsive.

Different times, different tactics.  


[ Parent ]
Nuance (0.00 / 0)
I wonder, too, if there is a greater nuance to the internet activism of today.  Or, perhaps, it's a reaction to a different media environment or a greater willingness to engage directly in the political process rather than try to use social movement signals to pressure politicians.  I don't have anywhere near the understanding of the activism of the 60s to know for sure.

But here's what I mean.  Which is more effective: 1000 people showing up to a rally or 1000 people giving Donna Edwards $25 over the internet, early in her campaign?  I would say, without hesitation, the latter.  You can look at that as good or bad (and I would say it's a combination of both) but the recognition of the effectiveness of small, targeted actions is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.


not a question of one or the other (4.00 / 4)
People, young and otherwise, are using both, the internet and demonstrations. It is just that in the '60's we had an honest press that covered demonstrations as a news event. The anti-war demonstrations in 2002 were ignored, and the ones in February 2003 were not given anything like the coverage merited given the number of people demonstrating. I mean, those demonstrations took place all over the world.

And just last month there were demonstrations in favor of single payer that were pretty much ignored, so what we have here is the usual case of what Somerby calls scripted newspeak. There is a script that todays young people do not demonstrate, and facts play no role in that coverage. That and Tom Friedman does not like the Internet.


[ Parent ]
here's a question (0.00 / 0)
if the media is part of the power establishment, then why would they cover your demonstration if you're actually trying to accomplish something that challenges power?  The best way to get them to cover your demonstration is by significantly challenging power combined with all the social justice marketing tactics we all know so well having grown up in the era of mass consumerism.

[ Parent ]
I also resent this charge (4.00 / 1)
I don't know whether it is true, in the aggregate, whether young people today are less likely to protest than young people in the 1960s and 1970s or in the 1920s and 1910s or how to define young or who exactly was protesting by age group.  What I do know is that social disorder is determined by a lot of factors, demographic, economic, etc., and when people resort to talking about the "character" of a generation it's irritating.  

And when it ignores evidence to the contrary, like that over 300,000 people marched in Chicago TWICE and a MILLION people marched in Los Angeles only two years ago, it's REALLY irritating and probably racist.  

And when they further ignore the role of the elites - young and old - (like Al Gore) in creating and supporting the discourse that produced my generation's political attitudes, it's almost beyond words.  

And when it comes from Thomas Friedman, the person who literally said that Thai politics should be governed by shareholders of MNCs and we should all be happy that the Market is God---well...

I lose my capacity for anything resembling polite dialogue.

What gall.


And, gee, the internet played a huge role in organizing those protests. n/t (0.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Free speech cages (4.00 / 3)
People (of whatever age) may also have seen decreased effectiveness of some methods as well. Just because they worked well before doesn't mean they do today.  Notably the, apparently legal, use of "free speech cages" to isolate protesters away from the very thing or person they are protesting and away from the associate media and away from the audience and ....  So they are effectively neutered.

You mean like the one the DNC is putting up in Denver? n/t (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Is the DNC doing that? .. (0.00 / 0)
or the city of Denver?  or a combo of both?  I would hope the DNC would have no part of such thing .. but given all the anti-terrorism stuff going on .. who knows

[ Parent ]
Oh yes. (0.00 / 0)
The free speech zones were up and running in Boston 2004.  

With the full support of the DNC.


[ Parent ]
Ugh!!! (0.00 / 0)
Sounds like they live in fear of Oxycotin man   :-(

[ Parent ]
When protest has been serious, significant... (0.00 / 0)
people have broken down "free speech cages." And then they have held politicians accountable any actions police may have taken against the "improperly" protesting protesters.

This happened as recently as Seattle at the WTO in the 90s. It just means that folks got serious about delivering their message by way of disruption.

I'm not at all sold that disruption is the way to deliver our message, but if we are serious about protesting, we have to be willing to break out of cages. It goes with the territory.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Important point (4.00 / 4)
This gets at a more general point, namely, that there is good reason for believing that elites are more successful at insulating themselves from and much less influenced by traditional forms of protest than in previous generations.  

It is well known (cf. S. Hersh's Kissinger bio) that Nixon's plans for deploying nuclear weapons against N. Vietnam were thwarted by a warning from Hoover that he could not insure that Nixon would "have a country to govern" should he act on the Operation Duck Hook, as it was called.

In comparison, it now seems certain that even the huge protests of March 15, 2003 had virtually no effect on the march to war.

There seems to be combination of at least three factors at work here:

1) the commitment of opposition groups to non-violent, generally legal forms of protest

2) the increasingly aggressive, sometimes militarized police response to even the mildest expressions of dissent

3) the capacity of centralized, consolidated media to ignore massive numbers in the streets

All has meant that street demonstrations are simply not taken into account when elites implement their agenda.  

The bottom line: New tactics-probably significantly  more aggressive ones, one of which is suggested above, need to be seriously discussed and implemented by those serious about effecting change.


[ Parent ]
Three other points.. (0.00 / 0)
In addition to your three points, I'd add:

4) the decrease in the number of elites involved in street protests. Both the Civil Rights movement and the anti-Vietnam War movement involved many relatively powerful people in society. This influenced the power elite a lot -- many members of the elite were fearful that their children, friends, or neighbors would end up being beaten by police at demonstrations.

5) the capacity of the news media to focus only on violent, obnoxious protesters, thus scaring the public into thinking that progressives are viciously anti-American and/or crazy. The labor and Civil Rights movements were very disciplined about how every person involved acted so that they could not be discredited by provocateurs or street thugs masquerading as protestors.

6) the ability of the Right to reign in their more "colorful" characters. Progressives generally get good media coverage and public support when we act well and are confronted by authorities like Bull Connor, and we get bad coverage and lose public support when we act violently or our opposition is very slick.


[ Parent ]
Simple power play no? (4.00 / 5)
It's about maintaining control of instruments of power. If the new wave of activists are somehow "not real activists like us" then it's easier to reduce them and keep them from threatening the established leadership roles and power structure.

At best it's a delaying tactic of course, but embracing the personification of change also means embracing change, and if you're part of the current system, change is a threat.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.


Media Sophistication (4.00 / 5)
Upthread Joel said something that resonates with me and I believe does show a generational change:

Personally, I have been to a couple rallies/protests, but I've never believed them to be effective.  The media isn't that interested and politicians are even less interested.

Note the built-in assumption: it isn't what you do that is important, it is the reaction and how it plays on the media that matters.  It isn't cause that matters, it is effect.

That change in sophistication is a direct result of the society we live in today, and not only due to the internet.  (Some would call it a loss of innocences, I guess.)  Even the youngest child today quickly learns that going to see Santa at the mall is more of a photo-op than anything else.  

But it is this change that older folks (not just Boomers) have problems with.  Each generation by nature adapts to its surroundings -- created by the older generation, btw -- in a way that confounds and confuses the older generation.  You get that in any society that rapidly changes.

But in general, the more things change the more likely the younger side is correct.  After all, the wisdom of age is experience and the wisdom of youth is adaptability, which is more important depends on how rapidly things change.


Here's a different take on this. (4.00 / 1)
I'm a boomer, but my purpose today is not to trash the younguns, which I've done enough of in my time.

But many thoughts have been clattering around in my head in recent days, and this thread offered a good place to bring them all together.

No one's accountable anymore

I mention the following two events in my personal life and there are about half a dozen more in the same vein that I won't bore you with.

1,  I have a one-year-old Toyota Prius.  This spring it developed rust next to the windshield.  I took it to my dealer fully expecting recompense as a factory defect.  Instead, I got met with a stonewall all the way to the top levels of the corporation, a coordinated circling of the wagons against the enemy, little old me, the consumer.  They insisted there was an impact, possibly due to winter ice-scraping (as if that could be an excuse) and insisted on pointing out other scratches on the other side of the car as proof that the problem wasn't theirs, while stonewalling any of my attempts to get them to explain what a scratch on the right side of the car had to do with the area near the left windshield.  It was like watching Richard J. Daley in 1968 insisting that no police misconduct could possibly have occurred.  All my friends and acquaintances told me that Toyota would quickly settle with me because it wasn't worth it to them to piss off a customer and were shocked to find out that that the reality was quite the opposite.  

My boomer expectations fully expected that something would be done.  My sense is that my son's generation would have had no such expectations.

2.  I tried to get technical support from Quicken.  This is any more a total fool's errand.  There is no channel by which a bug can be reported.  I found a web forum where many of users bitched and moaned about the same problem, for over two years - without making a dent in getting it onto the  company's radar.  Technical support has been completely divorced from the engineering function and has been entirely repurposed, based on the assumption that the users are stupid and confused.  The people fielding the calls have no empowerment to escalate issues.  They are empowered only to run through various scenario scripts about which they understand little.  They are paid next to nothing and live in places like India.  Meanwhile, the people who own this corporation (boomers no doubt, but that's irrelevant) are probably sunning themselves in some plutocratic hideaway.  They're way past caring about stuff like this.  Who is accountable?

My boomer expectations led my astray again.  I remember when things worked somewhat differently.  My sense is that my son's generation would not have wasted their time on this fools' errand.

I could go on and on in this vein.  Medical insurance providers who wield their incompetence as a weapon.  "That's what the computer says, what do you want ME to do?"

My point here is not to criticize the millennials here.  Rather it is to say that their attitudes may in fact be more  adaptive in the dysfunctional world of late capitalism that we are now rushing into headlong.  As America races to the bottom, remembrance of when we were on top may be in some sense maladaptive.

To bring it back to the political sphere, it is certainly worth noting that many (but of course not all) of Barack Obama's shrillest critics, with whom I'm often in agreement, on substance if not in tone, are boomers with higher expectations of what a political struggle should be.  Might it be that many of the so-called "Obamanoids" start with lower expectations of what can be accomplished with such passions?  To such a cohort, "issues" invite skepticism, not commitment.

Who's to say they're wrong?


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


race and class (4.00 / 1)
This is a false debate, as noted many times.  but it's also a seriously flawed false debate.

Here are some wikifacts combined with my personal recollections.  Two years ago:

About 300,000 people marched in Chicago.
About a million people marched in Los Angeles.  50,000 in Denver.  50,000 in Detroit.  In some of these cities these were the largest protests ever held.  

Read that sentence again.  

Altogether there were millions of people BEFORE this movement was contained and snared.  This included 125,000 students walked out of school in Los Angeles and thousands in Las Vegas and in San Diego so that should put the "students don't do anything" charge to rest (and why should they anyway?).  

So the idea that today there is an "internet generation" that doesn't take to the streets or that everyone under 30 is privileged enough to sit on the internet all day is absurd.  Anyone who argues either side of this is paying attention to only a select group of people, a select group of issues, and they are largely ignoring the mexican or polish or ecuadorian migrant worker in Chicago or the Chicano high school student in Los Angeles that was in the streets two years ago before most people even  knew they were coming.

And in this conversation which starts with complaints about the lack of social change activists, millions and millions of people in the U.S. who took part in massive social protest two years ago, despite that they might have been risking EVERYTHING to march (separation from their families, loos of their jobs, ability to pay back debt -i.e. deportation).  People like Elvira Arellano have continued to do so in ways that might seem small to the naked eye but profoundly challenge power.

And then those who counter the claim that this is an "Internet generation" that does nothing just reinforce this silence about the people who could be AND HAVE BEEN mobilized for social justice causes in the United States--just not a cause celebre to the same extent.

So a result, we don't get up to the crucial questions of how and why those protests reached that size (it wasn't "just" Spanish language DJs - there were 600 Latino and Chicano activists who met in Los Angeles in February 2006 and shared tactics), why it was eventually ensnared and stifled (and note the role of the organizations of what is called the "immigrant rights movement" but also the conservatism of the Spanish language media, both radio and TV), and what its future potentialities are as a base (who knows?), because we don't pay any attention to the protests to begin with and have very little understanding of them or how they COULD have been even more important.

So why is this entire conversation ignoring these people?  Don't you want to see 300,000 people marching in Chicago to back health care rights and end the war in Iraq?  Don't you want to see 1,000,000 people against global warming?  Look at where your base might be and work WITH them on an equal level at least.  

PLEASE - don't support "immigrant rights"; meet and try to organize an migrant--whether on the Internet or whether in real life--or try to be organized by a migrant workers' group.  If you want to see social change in the U.S., these are the people you need to talk to, not just Barack Obama's policy advisors.


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