What Each Vice-Presidential Pick Says About Obama

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 19:01


So, despite rumors, there was no announcement of Evan Bayh as Obama's Vice-President today. Mark this down right along with rumors that Tim Kaine was about to be announced as Obama's Vice-President. Here is a tip for people trying to make such predictions in the future: in all likelihood, within either twenty-four or forty-eight hours of the actual announcement, the campaign will announce that it is about to announce Obama's pick. I am pretty sure that every campaign in recent memory has done this. The date and time of the announcement won't be a surprise, even if the actual person selected still might be.

Then again, it won't be that much of a surprise, since the same five names keep getting re-circulated: Evan Bayh, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Tim Kaine and Kathleen Sebelius. There are still occasional mentions of Hillary Clinton and Sam Nunn, but they seem highly unlikely. There seems to be a five-person short list, and the names are Biden, Bayh, Dodd, Kaine, and Sebelius.

In the extended entry, I take a look at the various statements Obama would be making with each of these five picks.  

Chris Bowers :: What Each Vice-Presidential Pick Says About Obama
Here are some things that Obama's Vice-Presidential pick would mean about Obama:

  • I was really, really right about the Iraq war: If Obama goes with Kaine or Sebelius, it will say that Obama intends to keep running on his judgment in opposing the Iraq war. Both Kaine and Sebelius are Catholics and opposed the war as part of a broader, more coherent, "culture of life" philosophy that I am quite familiar with from my upbringing. As opposed to Bush's cafeteria of life, the actual culture of life philosophy opposes the death penalty and war. Also, like Kaine, Sebelius and my mother, it opposes abortion, but not necessarily in a legal sense. While this isn't the same reason that Obama (or I) opposed the war, it would still serve as a reinforcing pick on Iraq judgment. If he goes with one of these two, it seems likely that he just doesn't trust anyone who supported the war.

  • I really, really didn't like my top-tier opponents: If Obama goes with Bayh, Biden or Dodd, all of whom either ran for President or heavily explored the possibility, it will send a pretty strong signal that he didn't much care for either Edwards or Clinton. It is hard for me to think of an instance where a vice-presidential choice came from the second tier of presidential candidates, so this message would be hard to miss. It would also provide more insight into why Obama ran for President in the first place, since before he ran everyone thought it would be Edwards vs. Clinton in the top tier. Clearly, he didn't much care for either of them.

Now, more specifically for each of the final five:

  • Evan Bayh: A Bayh selection would be the equivalent of Gore picking Joe Lieberman in 2000. It would signal, loud and clear to the D.C. establishment, that Obama doesn't intend to rock any boats once in office. As a former head of the DLC, organizer of the Senate centrist caucus, and son of a former Senator, Evan Bayh is about as centrist, elite establishment as one gets in D.C.  Maybe it wouldn't even be the equivalent of Gore picking Lieberman, because at least Gore was running on a "people vs. the powerful" message that did rock a few boats for a while, casting doubt in some minds as to whether Gore was still the same guy who helped foundthe DLC in the 1980's. Obama, by contrast, is not really running that sort of populist campaign.

  • Joe Biden: I think the message with Biden would be that Obama wants to attack McCain pretty hard, but he is leery of delivering too many of the attacks himself. Biden is a top-notch attack dog, and would serve that function well for Obama. He is also an excellent debater, and I thought he "won" all four debates I saw him in back in 2007. Biden is also McCain's Democratic doppleganger, as he shows up on Sunday talk shows more than any other Democrat. As such, he might be the perfect anti-McCain attack dog. A Wesley Clark pick would have sent similar signals, since Clark is also an excellent attacker.

  • Chris Dodd: Picking Dodd would be the exact opposite of picking Bayh, in that it would send a signal that Obama intends to shake up the establishment. After the recent fights he has picked, Dodd is not very well liked by establishment types, and they would hear this message loud and clear. As such, Dodd is the most dangerous pick for Obama, since he could receive a bit of a backlash, but also the most exciting. Although I intend to work hard anyway, I would really work my ass off for an Obama-Dodd ticket.

  • Tim Kaine: A Kaine pick means "I'm more conservative than you thought." Kaine is, in many ways, quite a bit like Obama. Both opposed the war, both have backgrounds working on urban issues (Kaine was a housing rights lawyer and a mid-size city mayor)), both have extensive international exposure (Kaine spent time in Central America), both are pretty religious (Kaine was a missionary), both are relatively new to national politics, etc. In many ways he is a strongly reinforcing pick. As such, pretty much everything about Kaine will appear to reinforce Obama. Given that Kaine is probably the most conservative choice among the final five, it would end up saying that about Obama, as well.

  • Kathleen Sebelius: The only real flaw with Sebelius is that she is boring. As such, if Obama picked her, it would signal that he intends to run a pretty cautious campaign, and also to govern cautiously. A Sebelius pick means that he intends to quietly govern as a progressive, with small-bore targets rather than grandiose fights, ala Dodd.

These are not the only things that Obama would be saying with each of these selections, but they are the first things that come to mind. What would each of these VP picks mean to you?  


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Bayh (0.00 / 0)
Want to quickly note that because Bayh is strongly linked to the Clintons (as is Clark), his pick might be seen as pro-Clinton nod.  I'm in the camp that thinks having Hillary directly on the ticket is almost (though, of course, not completely, mathematically, 100%) impossible.  So a strong Clintonite could be the next best thing for pro-Hillary folks.  I don't know, I wasn't a pro-Hillary guy in the primaries, so I wouldn't presume to know what the rank and file thinks, but the Village insiders will see it this way.

Bayh would please the pro-Hillary people? (4.00 / 1)
Hmmm...  If that's true, what does that say about the pro-Hillary people? [shaking head slowly and groaning ala Lurch from the Addams Family]

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
I think that whole idea is retarded (4.00 / 8)
How many white democratic women and working class voters that went to bat for Hillary give a flying f*ck about Evan Bayh? They were for Hillary!

The people for whom picking a "clinton supporter" would be something they would care about are former clinton campaign staff and fundraisers.  


[ Parent ]
I disagree with the logic as well (4.00 / 6)
Too inside baseball.  But I'd prefer folks not use that term to describe the idea; it's offensive.

[ Parent ]
a bayh pick would open up the WH (0.00 / 0)
to Clinton staffers, friends of bill and hill, and the money people. the clinton machine is slowly being dismantled but  a bayh vp would give it life.

[ Parent ]
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1830119,00.html n/c (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
adfs (4.00 / 1)
Note that I wasn't necessarily endorsing said logic, just that that was how some commentators would spin it.

[ Parent ]
picking Bayh will not make Hillary supporters happy (0.00 / 0)
he's in no way like her

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Bayh is the only one I REALLY don't like (4.00 / 11)

  The other candidates might lean a little conservative, but none of them contradict Obama on the signature issue of the Iraq war. A Bayh pick would undercut any arguments Obama could make about McCain's judgment on Iraq -- and effectively neutralize one of Obama's most powerful contrasting attributes. And that's BEFORE getting into the fact that Bayh is the DLC incarnate.

  One of John Kerry's problems in 2004 was that he was limited in how hard he could hammer Bush on the war, because Kerry had voted for it as well. Obama doesn't have that handicap, and he'd be foolish to throw that advantage away.

  I could live with any of the others -- I'd LOVE Dodd, but I don't think Obama's that bold.

   Oh, "Bush's cafeteria of life" -- awesome.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


For better or worse, I think war will be a non-issue for VP... (0.00 / 0)
As it's slowly becoming a non-issue for the public.  Obama should basically just maintain that he was always against the war, and now he's right about it still because just about everyone (including Iraq) has endorsed his plan for it.  I honestly don't think the VP choice will matter all that much, and the VP can just say something along the lines of "Yeah, Obama is so kick ass he got the war right..." in response to any questions, and it probably doesn't need to go much deeper than that.

There are worse picks than Bayh, but he's definitely not my favorite.  In some ways, I do wonder whether he's the best "electoral" pick on this list.


[ Parent ]
Something I'll note (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the Iraq War has been as much of a signature issue for Obama in the general as it was during the primaries, somehow. Maybe that will start changing at some point.

[ Parent ]
He could make it one... (4.00 / 7)

 ...and tie it to the economy.

 And if he does that, I think he'll pull away.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
both Biden and Dodd voted for the Iraq War.

I will say this: when both ran in Iowa Biden made a much more positive impression than Dodd did. Because of the way caucuses work, it is possible to have a fair amount of support and never really register in either the polls or the final tally.  At the Caucus I was at Biden had significant support - and in conversations with others who captained precincts I think Biden was closer to breaking through in Iowa than might appear.


[ Parent ]
Hoping for a suprise (0.00 / 0)
Gosh. Going only by your descriptions I think I like Kaine the most...but to get to your question:

1. Bayh = Obama has decided that Indiana is must win. Also making peace with Clintons.

2. Biden = needs more foreign policy in Oval Office. Personally I think Reed is closer to being picked than Biden for this same reason.

3. Dodd = not going to happen.

4. Kaine = Obama decides to gamble. Unlikely.

5. Seibilus = Decided to stick it to Hillary. Also unlikely.

I think VP is political decision based more on winning election than on governing....I also think there are some surprises up his sleeve.


"5. Seibilus = Decided to stick it to Hillary." (4.00 / 12)
Ummm... I guess if you're a petty illogical Hillary supporter, you could see it that way. Most people would assume it's because he wants Sebelius to be his running mate. It is pretty dismissive of her accomplishments to completely define her in terms of how it will make Hillary feel.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
from all accounts bill is still pretty sore (0.00 / 0)
at this point Obama is going to have to win it without bill. I think he can do it but it is unfortunate. So given bill's current state of mind why rub salt in the wound?  

[ Parent ]
How something appears to Bill Clinton (4.00 / 4)
and how it appears to the public at large are not necessarily the same thing.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Why is Bill sore? .. (4.00 / 6)
because someone kicked his ass?  That's politics.  He doesn't own the Democratic Party.  He needs to check his ego at the door.

[ Parent ]
We've been saying that... (4.00 / 3)
since Obama decided to run. Didn't seem to matter. People seem genuinely surprised when we decide that democracy...means democracy. There isn't a waiting line for presidential nominees.

[ Parent ]
In the republican party there is (4.00 / 1)
That's why John McCain's number was called in 2008. He was right in line behind the Dubya and Bob Dole.

[ Parent ]
Because they called him a racist (4.00 / 1)
If you had his history of personal, community and political relaltionships with the black community, you too would be angry and upset that you were called a racist.

When the first 2 term, reelected Democrat since FDR is trashed in this way...it is not good for the party or even the presidential campaign.

Especially if it's a canard and it's untrue.  If you were persoanlly trashed this way you could easily still be upset.

And the Obama campaign is assiduously avoiding bringing up the accomplishments of the last successful 2 term Democratic president.  Just like with Gore in 2000, not
highlighting that success, particularly on the economic
front undercuts the economic arguments.  

Also it does not contribute to helping the Democratic party brand...something we need to keep succeeding on..just just to win elections but to pass progressive policies.

Remember Bill Clinton was the last reelected Democratic president...and he's been branded a racist...is that good for the Democratic party over the long run?  It does the party no good or the presidential campaign any real good.  (It contributed to the straitjacket that the Obama campaign finds itself in when McCain does play the race card..it narrowed his options)

Paul Krugman got it right

August 4, 2008, 1:42 pm

Post-partisan depression

Obama's big economy speech, last week:

Back in the 1990s, your incomes grew by $6,000, and over the last several years, they've actually fallen by nearly $1,000.

"Back in the 90s?" Why not, "When a Democrat was president?" "Over the last several years?" Why not, "under Bush?"


   

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I really want an answer (4.00 / 6)
WHO called Bill racist?

I followed the campaign as closely as I could.  I never heard Obama call him racist.  The worst claim was that Bill was playing the race card - downplaying Obama's achievement in the primaries. And frankly - that's TRUE.

So let's have it, please.  Who called Bill racist?

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




[ Parent ]
"racist" (0.00 / 0)
That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't remember anyone saying Bill Clinton was a racist. I do remember people pointing out that the Clinton campaign and Bill in particular were trying to exploit racism. If he didn't want to be accused of playing the race card, he shouldn't have played the race card. Fuck him. I'm over his massive ego. If he doesn't get on board with helping Obama win, he's part of the problem.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Why diminish/ignore the Democratic party brand and its symbols? (4.00 / 1)
 
I do remember people pointing out that the Clinton campaign and Bill in particular were trying to exploit racism

distinction without a difference

I got 4 replies and not one of you dealt with the fact I brought up that the the Obama campaign has decided to diminish?ignore the accomplishments of the only 2 term Democratic president since FDR.  Or what Krugman said.  "Why the 90's?  why not when a Democrat was president?"

This is not party building...it diminishes the idientification of party and highlights the individual running for presidient.

I think it is really important to remind the public that when Democrats govern...everybody...up and down the economic scale benefits.

I don't know what planet you're on if you don't think that the Obama surrogates from Jesse Jackson Jr (after Hillary won NH he said.... where were her tears for Katrina vistims.  she cried over her looks....a racist and sexist accusation together) or Jim Clyburn under the guise of neutrality.

But what I really want you to address is why are they diminsishing the legacy and the brand of the Democratic party.  It's like they're still suck in the primary.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Re your first point... (4.00 / 1)
Here you go debcoop...

"...Andrews, a centrist who had been supporting Hillary in the primaries, told the Newark Star-Ledger that a high-ranking member of the Clinton camp approached him in the run-up to the Pennsylvania primary about using a strategy to exploit divisions between Jews and blacks, as a way of increasing Hillary's share of the Jewish vote in that big primary.  "Frankly, I had a private conversation with a high-ranking person in the campaign ... that used a racial line of argument that I found very disconcerting," said Andrews. "It was extremely disconcerting given the rank of this person. It was very disturbing...."

http://tpmelectioncentral.talk...

He shut up v. quickly after that - and do I mean he was made to shut up. He wouldn't even clarify his remarks!

How can our nominee respect a campaign that uses race to divide its own party, of course they shouldn't --- they should distance themselves as far away as possible.  Obama is treating the Clintons with more respect than they deserve.

The Clinton's legacy is already diminished and they did it all by themselves.


[ Parent ]
Bill's racebaiting (0.00 / 0)
I got 4 replies and not one of you dealt with the fact I brought up that the the Obama campaign has decided to diminish?ignore the accomplishments of the only 2 term Democratic president since FDR.

I addressed the part of your comment that I thought was bullshit.

I don't know what planet you're on if you don't think that the Obama surrogates from Jesse Jackson Jr (after Hillary won NH he said.... where were her tears for Katrina vistims.  she cried over her looks....a racist and sexist accusation together) or Jim Clyburn under the guise of neutrality.

I agree that the Jackson Jr. comment you mention seems to imply that Hillary is a racist. But I don't think it's legit to try to attribute every quote by every Obama supporter to Obama and his campaign. I think it's silly to think that the Obama campaign would pick someone named Jesse Jackson to accuse Hillary of racism. Jackson was clearly freelancing with his stupid comment.

Clyburn was neutral, as you point out. The obvious explanation is that, although he was trying to remain neutral, he saw what everyone else saw - Bill Clinton exploiting racism to help Hillary.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Jesse Jackson Jr was co chair of Obama's campaign (0.00 / 0)
He was no random nobody.  He was not reprimanded nor did anyone ask for him to apologize.  When things got down for the campaign they resorted to this....and it works in Democratic primaries...but they tried doing it in the general election....accusing th eopponent of racist tactics and it backfired on them because general election voters resent being called racist and they vote against you.

You are all stick stuck in the primary...damning the Clintons.

It is petty and destructive.  the netroots was about principles of democratic governance...big D and small d.

The presidiency of Bill Clinton is remembered as a time of economic wealth and fairness...because that is fundamental to how Democrats govern.

There is a dangerous, narcisisstic tendency in this general election to highlight just the candidate and not the party and its principles.  It is not good for us...and frankly this focus on his person and not the party's principles makes the celebrity attacks credible.  

It's a Democratic year so he may be able to win....and people want to get rid of the Republicans so it may still work...

But do you just want to just win the office or is there a reason to win....things that need to be done...big matters to address and fix...for that you need a mandate...not a close election.  

You and the Obama camapaign are so focussed on the old fights, that we will not have the ammunition we need for the essential and much more compelling fights to come.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Well .. (4.00 / 4)
Bill did call Obama a fraud in so many words .. lets face it .. Bill is pissed because they(meaning the Clintons) got beat fair and square by a guy that's just like him(meaning smart .. good public speaker .. the good parts basically) .. and Bill still can't accept that fact .. he's still in shock

[ Parent ]
Not in shock -- he's on the effing war path. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
The Clintons ARE racists -- sticks out a mile... (0.00 / 1)
...they have no respect for anyone except themselves, especially the black community and would use any political angle to further their own political ambitions...

Total narcissistic racists.


[ Parent ]
And Bill has ever done that in his LIFE (0.00 / 0)
when?

TheClintons are fully capable of pulling a Ted Kennedy in '80 seen in Denver.


[ Parent ]
there was a poll out today (4.00 / 4)
Which basically showed that only a small minority of Clinton supporters would be less likely to vote for Obama if he picked a woman, and a plurality would be more likely to vote for him.  I haven't seen Bill Clinton doing much for Obama yet, so I am not sure what pissing him off more would risk.


[ Parent ]
I'd be very interested in a link. (4.00 / 1)
Some empirical evidence to put this baffling controversy to rest would be very appreciated.

[ Parent ]
ask and ye shall..... (4.00 / 5)
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/b...

key point.....

Forty-seven percent of Hillary Clinton's primary voters said they'd be more likely to vote for Obama if he chose a woman running mate, and 4% said less likely. This is the exact breakdown of current Obama supporters overall.


[ Parent ]
Yes, but keep in mind (4.00 / 2)
that picking a non-Hillary woman would spark a media flurry about the perceived slight to Clinton. Letterman would be doing a top ten list of reasons Obama decided to stick it to Hillary. Etc. etc. Obama loses points with women tired of women being disrespected.

Not saying it makes sense, but that is what will happen.  


[ Parent ]
He's sore. (0.00 / 0)
I'm pretty pissed at him, too. Not for the campaign, but for being a jerk in office and turning into the best damned Republican in the WH since Ike.  

[ Parent ]
*Counting on* a surprise (4.00 / 9)
I, for one, don't buy the notion that these are the only five under serious consideration--heck, I haven't even seen credible proof that these five under consideration at all, at this point.  I mean, has anyone encountered a reporter whose version of the veep shortlist is better sourced than, say, your average National Inquirer article?  (Snark aside, I'm eager to be wrong, here.  Just provide links ...)

[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 1)
We're all going to be scratching our heads saying, "why didn't I think of him/her?"  He's coming out of nowhere with this pick, in order to not piss any constituency off.

His message is him, and it will stay about him.  Play the field if you're an intrader.  My prediction (while boring, lame, and non-enthusiastic) is still Lee Hamilton.


[ Parent ]
Wow... (4.00 / 1)
That would be a shocker.

[ Parent ]
Not really (4.00 / 1)
It downplays the entire veepstakes, up-plays his singular message, and gives total cover to "national security" issues.

It comes down to electoral politics vs. governance politics, which BHO has constantly demonstrated he's in the latter category.

All this top5-bullshit is just that, bullshit.  He predicated his victory over HRC in the primary upon how best to govern, not on fixing the world.  It really is a sensible choice.  He and his staff know what we know: an incoming Pres has 2 years to make his mark.  

Does he really want to fight foreign wars started by the previous administration and have that highly uncontrollable theme dictate his narrative?  Or would he rather bring in the 9/11 co-chair and ISG co-chair, to deal with those problems while he focuses his efforts on the core issues he preaches facing the country.

Domestic issues of health care and income inequality is where he is most comfortable, not fighting Bush's wars.

Someone who can credibly take those highly controversial and uncontrollable issues off the table and give him freedom to maneuver makes the most sense.  Like it or not, he has run as the "presumptive president", even in the primary.  And one would be foolish to think he's changed that perspective.

The gamble he's taken is that he'll win.  The positioning he's adopted is to give him the space he needs to do what he wants to do once occupying 1600.  It's the most sensible choice.


[ Parent ]
He is from Indiana... (4.00 / 1)
and still fairly popular there. So you get to play for Indiana without having to hold your nose for Bayh...I like.

[ Parent ]
Tim Ryan (0.00 / 0)
I'm still hoping that Tim Ryan will be the surprise announcement.   He does not have much name recognition and is little known nationally.    However, when you look closely at him he seems like the perfect choice.   He is a real "attack dog" and Obama needs that.  

[ Parent ]
Obama campaign doesn't leak, so I'd go with a surprise (4.00 / 2)
They never leak anything. So the fact that these five are the only ones in the conversation doesn't mean anything. One of them could be the choice, but the fact that we know them doesn't indicate they have a better shot than anyone else.

We'll never know anything about this process until it's finished. Everything else is just games and press management. The Obama campaign got 3 days of great press in IN over the Bayh speculation, and more than 5 days of press in VA over the Kaine speculation.

We really can't read the tealeaves on this one.


[ Parent ]
Reed (0.00 / 0)
Reed gave his Shermanesque statement.  So Biden would actually have a MUCH better shot since he would actually TAKE the job.

[ Parent ]
I'm all for it... (4.00 / 1)
as long as he gets his gaffes under control. That was what took Bill Richardson out of contention for me; it may have done the same for Biden.

[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
Biden is definitely a bit gaffe-prone ("clean, articulate"), but he really is a great attack dog.  His comment about everything with Rudy Giuliani being "a noun, a verb, and 9/11" was absolutely brilliant and, I think, was what finally made Giuliani too ridiculous to be a serious candidate anymore.  He can be a great surrogate, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about him as a VP pick, though.

I love Dodd, but this is exactly why I don't want him as the VP.  With Obama in the White House, Dodd has the potential to be a historic Senate Majority Leader and would, I think, help him quite a bit with keeping him on a more progressive path.  Not that Dodd's perfect, of course, but I'd love to see either him or Feingold swinging the gavel around.


[ Parent ]
Kaine=I wanted Sebelius but... (4.00 / 2)
she was deemed too boring or Obama paid heed to the people who said that putting a women on the ticket who is not Hillary Clinton would offend Clinton supporters or some other reason.

If Obama was set to pick Sebelius and she turned him down or got hit by a bus, I think Kaine would be his second choice.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


Boring Is Great (4.00 / 2)
While I'm generally not into the balancing pick, Sibelius would make Obama look more down to earth, working against the meme that he's frivolous and all talk.

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (4.00 / 2)
Obama is his own show. He really just needs a diligent, homey progressive. Either Schweitzer or Sebelius would work great in this regard.

[ Parent ]
Hunting Turkeys (0.00 / 0)
You know, take back what I said above. I have no freeking clue what pick is a good one. There's a team of experts spending every waking hour trying to make the right pick and even they don't know. Maybe in the end it's a crapshoot.

Just pick Kucinich and get it overwith already.


[ Parent ]
Dodd vs. "the establishment" .. (4.00 / 5)
You forget one thing .. Dodd is very comfy with the financial elites(He's on board to bail out Frannie and Freddie) .. and given his mortgage problems(Countrywide) .. I don't see Dodd being VP

I don't see the countrywide thing hurting too much... (0.00 / 0)
To begin with, he's the VP, and people don't really vote for VP.

Secondly, I think it's just something that will bore people to tears.  Not only that, I just don't think people are going to get all worked up about somebody who just took the best loan rate that was offered to him.  I mean, this was a mistake, I agree, and he should've been smarter about it.. but when you're searching for a loan and you get offers, aren't you just going to pick the best one?  I certainly did (and it was also a pretty good rate, although probably not as good as this one).  Dodd obviously should've realized what was happening (and maybe he did), but I'm guessing that he or whoever was setting up the loan just took whatever the best rate offered to him was... and I just don't see Americans caring that much about it.


[ Parent ]
I have some qualms about Dodd too on that issue (4.00 / 5)
During the primary when I was researching that candidates, I found out that he worked to push through a tort reform bill through the senate in override of Clinton's veto of it. It cut investor's rights to sue corporations along with a lot of other pro corporate deregulation.  He received millions in campaign contributions from the financial companies the following election.  

He also relied the most heavily on corporate donations and lobbyists to keep his campaign afloat during the recent primaries.

Dodd has a fantastic civil rights, environment, and labor record but he is very tight with the Wall Street Democrats.

Dodd would tell me that Obama is going to push left on civil liberties but will not pursue aggressive corporate regulation.

John McCain wants to put SS in hedge funds.


[ Parent ]
Kaine (0.00 / 0)
Don't forget the Harvard Law School connection with Kaine.  In addition to being similar on other issues such as their urban experiences, both Kaine and Obama were HLS grads during the 1980s (although they never attended at the same time).  Their education there likely left them with similar governing and academic philosophies that might transcend ideology.  Given that Kaine was an early Obama supporter, a VP nod might not necessarily reflect ideology as much as personal familiarity.  

I find the cynicism sad. (4.00 / 4)
Re:
I really, really didn't like my top-tier opponents:

I just don't get that.  Edwards is in the middle of a simmering scandal that he needs to put behind him once and for all, while Clinton's husband is still running against Obama (albeit more quietly).  In both cases - he could LOVE his top tiered opponents and have good reason not to choose them.  

More importantly though, he might just really LIKE someone else from the field for Vice President.  For instance - I think Biden is a great choice and I think the fact that voters aren't exhausted with him from the primary season makes him a better choice than either Edwards or Clinton in at least that regard.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




Edwards scandal? (4.00 / 1)
" Edwards is in the middle of a simmering scandal that he needs to put behind him once and for all."

He is? Could you please tell me what great scandal this is? If it rhymes with "wuv filed," you might want to check your sources on more than a few things.  


[ Parent ]
No need to check sources (0.00 / 0)
the fact that the story is out there means its waiting for its day in the sun.  The Obama camp is pretty risk-averse when it comes to "distractions" - this is one waiting to happen.  In fact, I suspect that there are some shady types paying the National Enquirer to keep teasing with this story just to keep Edwards off the ballot - so it seems to me that Edwards has everything to gain by proving that this story is a manufactured one.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




[ Parent ]
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't (0.00 / 0)
I agree... if anything this story is pushing for him to either say it's true or deny it.

For me, after this I'm not going to feed the story...  


[ Parent ]
Boring (4.00 / 2)
A Sebelius pick means that he intends to quietly govern as a progressive, with small-bore targets rather than grandiose fights, ala Dodd.

I'm not sure I entirely get this identification between "cautious" and "boring" you're putting forward here. Just looking it abstractly, for example, one could take an extremely incautious and daring stance on fiscal and banking policy, and it would still be incredibly boring to most people. It seems to me like "cautious" is mostly about which battles you choose to pick and "boring" is mostly about how you choose to conduct yourself during those battles.

In the meantime, a question, which I ask purely out of ignorance-- what, other than FISA, has Dodd ever done to indicate he or someone who picked him as VP would be prone to "grandiose fights"?


Co-sponsor Feingold's withdrawal resolution, circa Spring 2007. (4.00 / 2)
After the 06 election, when Feingold and Reid were pushing some timeline-based funding bills, Dodd was the other guy who joined in.  Reid was hamstrung in what he could do (not sure if he was actually onboard with Feingold at all, actually), so it was Feingold and Dodd pushing this argument forward in the Senate war conferences.  

Given that Feingold is a pariah, it was critical to have Dodd lending his clout and credibility to that cause.  And his doing so didn't help him in any obvious or meaningful way at all; he appears to have done it strictly out of conviction.

I would faint if Obama put Dodd on the ticket.  Then I would consider quitting my job.  I don't think I'd actually do it, but I'd think about it.


[ Parent ]
VP is Gravy (4.00 / 2)
Personally, I'm supporting the Democratic team no matter who Obama finally decides to pick.  Still, it's a shame that with this being a considered a "Democratic Year" and all, the VP choices are all come from a similar mold.  Why is it that republicans can have someone like Cheney on their ticket, but democrats are always pushed into accepting a VP candidate that's a DLC type or someone who politically leans to the right?  I mean, when Chris Dodd is the most exciting choice available, you know there isn't much fireworks to be had.  I would love it if Obama shocked us all and went for someone truly progressive.

I had every intention of answering your question, but as I look at the list it's like splitting hairs to find any major political differences.

   


4 of the 5 are Catholic (4.00 / 2)
Its interesting that 4 of the 5 are Catholic.  Only Bayh is not.

"Never separate the life you live from the words you speak" -Paul Wellstone

I can't come up with titles for posts. (4.00 / 3)
I really, really didn't like my top-tier opponents

I think this part is, to be brutally honest, arbitrary bullshit. It makes as much sense as picking Sebelius showing "I really, really don't like men" (all the others on the shortlist are), or picking Kaine or Bayh showing "I really, really don't like people age 60 or older" (the other 3 are).

Otherwise, I think you're spot on in your assessments of Bayh, Biden, Dodd, and Kaine.

I think you're off the mark with Sebelius, though. In many ways she would be a very uncautious pick. He would be choosing someone who is little-known on the national scene with a record not much more meaty than Obama's, putting a woman on the ticket in addition to the African-American man, and risking the wrath of the Hillary dieharders. I think caution would be most exemplified by Kaine or Bayh, not Sebelius. I think Sebelius would indicate that he intends to govern progressively, not aggressively picking fights, but intending to reach out to and work with the opposition -- but also not backing down if they refuse to. This is basically what Obama has always been about, however.

Other messages they could/would send:

Sebelius or Kaine: I want someone who I am great personal friends with.

Bayh: I really want to win Indiana. Given that Indiana is a swing state with significant electoral votes and Bayh is incredibly popular in it, this is not out of the realm of the conceivable.

(bonus) Mark Warner: I really want to win Virginia. Same as above. (Doesn't apply to Kaine, who isn't nearly as popular, or the rest, who aren't in swing states.)

Biden or Dodd: I want someone who's been in Washington a really damn long time.

Sebelius/Kaine/Bayh: I want someone with executive experience. (He has mentioned this before.)


yes, here is an example of too much information (0.00 / 0)
Sebelius seems like a safe choice because those of us who follow every twist and turn closely have been hearing about her.

Most people in the country would not have any idea who she is.


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
Interesting (4.00 / 2)
What would also be interesting would be to do an entry on how each potential VP pick would help Obama get to 270 electoral votes. Only Bayh and Kaine would seem to help Obama with that challenge, and I think Kaine would be more effective than Baygh since Kaine is a governor and VA should be easier to win than Indiana. My pick would be Kaine, not necessarily because I agree with him most on policies but that we just gotta get to 270 this time.

I've said this before (4.00 / 1)
but I'll say it again: vice presidents rarely swing states -- people vote for the top of the ticket, not the bottom. If he wants the pick to have any sort of effect at all in the state, he has to choose someone who is amazingly popular in the state. If you add someone with negative approval ratings to the ticket, then logically enough it'll likely worsen your performance in the state; similarly, if you add someone who's just barely-sort-of positive, the effect will be very tepid. Even with someone very popular, it's only likely to be a few points.

So, anyways, the conclusion is that if Obama wants to use the VP pick to try and lock in a specific set of electoral votes, he should pick Mark Warner. (Who is currently a lock for the Senate, but if it's really Virginia or bust, then that shouldn't be an obstacle.)

Otherwise, the VP can help by defining and accentuating the candidate's message, having an effect spread out all over the map rather than concentrated in a single state. (I think the SUSA polls with Edwards were like this; he and Obama are quite the dynamic duo.)


[ Parent ]
It's all kind of untested (0.00 / 0)
We haven't really seen too many running mates chosen lately for the purpose of "delivering" a state. Edwards, Cheney, Lieberman, Gore, Kemp, Quayle, Bush, etc. I tend to think if you picked someone high profile enough and with strong ties to a particular state, the VP pick could easily swing a state. For instance, Hillary could probably swing Arkansas.

Hillary could also probably swing Florida, if for no other reason than you could basically send Bill and her down there and have them campaign up and down the state for three months straight.  


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
I think Lieberman was picked precisely because the Gore people thought he could be the deciding factor in Florida, and maybe he was before the butterfly ballot and truckloads of ballots heading down dusty highways made it all moot.  I agree that Gore and Cheney were picked more for the compatibility factor than for their ability to deliver a certain state, and  Quayle was more of a youth and ideological balance pick. Anyway, I think Obama is more concerned with who is going to hurt him the least rather than who is going to help him and that isn't the greatest place to be.  

[ Parent ]
The best academic (0.00 / 0)
studies suggest a VP is worth about 3 to 5 points in his/her home state.

They can't guarantee it - but they do help.


[ Parent ]
Kaine actually isn't that popular in VA. (0.00 / 0)
The last legislative session was apparently pretty bruising, and now his favorable rating just barely overreaches his unfavorables.

Plus, the Lt. Gov. is a hard right Republican. Do we really want to hand this seat to the 'Pubs in time for the redistricting battles ahead?


[ Parent ]
Bayh (4.00 / 4)
Bayh is by far the best electorally beneficial choice. He most likely helps in Indiana, along with neighboring Ohio and Michigan. With 2 Midwesterners on ticket (who appeal to different, but overlapping, constituencies) it gets pretty close to a lock. If Obama wins 2 of the 3 states above, it is hard to see him losing. There are plenty of negatives to picking Bayh, but many in the blogosphere are overplaying this   Bayh is conservative stuff (the Lieberman comparisons are ridiculous). After a landslide reelection in 2004, Bayh has been been quite liberal, ranking more liberal than 1/2 of Democrats. Seeing issues with this is ignoring political reality. Edwards and Gore had very similar voting records and now are heroes of the left. Does anyone see the irony there. For those that didn't see the 538 piece on Bayh, I suggest you check it out. Again, he's not my top choice, but  the repulsion towards him is overblown IMO. It's all about winning, and out of these 5, he probably helps Obama the most in this area. If you win comfortably enough, you have more power not to compromise your agenda.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...

Demockracy.com


The problem with Bayh ... (4.00 / 2)
is his DLC affiliation .. and the fact that because of his age(the opposite of Grandpa McCain) he'll be the odds on favorite in eight years ... no thanks to that!!

[ Parent ]
Only problem is (4.00 / 2)
Obama has said repeatedly he won't pick beacuse of electoral considerations. Picking Bayh just to help a little bit would probably backfire beacuse his positions are so wildly out of step with Obama's.

Also. Bayh has been more conservative then every other Senate Democrat except for Tim Johnson and Ben Nelson.

I'll live with Kaine.

but...

Please Not Bayh.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
What he say (0.00 / 0)
and he does about the VP are not the same thing.

[ Parent ]
Sebelius is boring? (4.00 / 6)
So you don't think she's Barack Obama and suddenly because she isn't wildly charismatic that means he will be cautious?

Picking a Sebelius would be by far the most bold pick he could make.

Also. Dodd outside of FISA is pretty much a creature of the establishment. For sure the banking and financial establishment but overall he's pretty much another Biden who happens to be great on civil liberties. I think your post describes Sebelius perfectly though.

Kathleen Sebelius: Picking Sebelius would be the exact opposite of picking Bayh, in that it would send a signal that Obama intends to shake up the establishment. After the recent fights she has picked, Sebelius is not very well liked by establishment types, and they would hear this message loud and clear. As such, Sebelius is the most dangerous pick for Obama, since he could receive a bit of a backlash, but also the most exciting. Although I intend to work hard anyway, I would really work my ass off for an Obama-Sebelius ticket.

Except Sebelius's fights are against Voter ID, coal and anti-choice laws instead of Dodd's fight against FISA  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


Kaine opposed the war? (4.00 / 1)
Kaine is, in many ways, quite a bit like Obama. Both opposed the war,

link please
this is the first I have heard that he opposed the war. Kaine supported Lieberman in 2004.


wankery (4.00 / 3)
it seems to me that speculating on the VP choice and Obama's possible motives, other than who he thinks is the best, and who he works well with, is just pure wankery.

Sebelius (4.00 / 2)
I don't really see where your characterization of Sebelius as

A Sebelius pick means that he intends to quietly govern as a progressive, with small-bore targets rather than grandiose fights, ala Dodd.

comes from. She is quite progressive and has actually gotten stuff done. Of the three people on that list who wouldn't be as old or older than John McCain in 8 years, she is by far the most progressive. So one might conclude that Obama is deciding to go in a long term progressive direction.

But for gods sakes, I really hope it's not Bayh or Kaine.


Looking over the field as a whole (0.00 / 0)
It seems like there is someone for just about every segment of the Democratic Party, but no one who is so compelling for any segment that a non-pick would create resentment among that potential candidate's partisans. All that's missing is someone from the West and someone Hispanic.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

Sebelius means (4.00 / 3)
that Obama is going to stick to his promise of transformative politics and govern progressively, without using divisive rhetoric.

That Obama can recognize who has the great record of getting things done in a very unfavorable political climate.

That Obama is different from other Democrats who think they need to pander to the centrists/right-wing to win votes.

That Obama cares about the future of the Democratic party and the progressive movement.

Sebelius 2016!


If life were less messy (4.00 / 1)
Obama would pick Sebelius regardless of the the fact that she is "boring" and from a small, non-competitive state, and on and on.  He'd pick her because he feels most comfortable with her in terms of governing philosophy and he'd pay no attention to his advisors who I'm sure are telling him that it is too risky to add a woman to the ticket and that she can't deliver any state.  But life is messy and so we've had tickets in the past like FDR and John Nance Garner and JFK and LBJ.  Chris can read tea leaves if he want to, but it is just as likely that Obama's pick will tell us what state or region he wants to strengthen his hand in as give us any information about the way he will govern.  He will likely pick a plausible politician who he thinks can deliver a state like, oh, Indiana (and despite Matt's fervid attempts to paint Bayh as a lightweight yeserday, the current Senator and former Governor of Indiana is - as Obama might say - "likeable and heavy enough").  I think Obama would really like to pick a non-politician with a great resume but the risk is just too great for mistakes from someone of that ilk.

Caroline Kennedy pulls a "Cheney" (0.00 / 0)
And she thought long and hard about who the best vice-presidential pick would be . . .

"A woman would be great, because that would help get the Hillary people on board . . . but someone not a Washington insider, someone with a bright mind, someone who cares about civil rights . . . But who? Who? Perhaps someone who could re-awaken the dreams and visions of my father, and the feelings of hope that the country had then . . ."

She walked over to the window, to stare out pensively while pondering on her goal. But night had already begun to fall, and the window was dark, and all she saw was her own reflection . . .

"Hey, Barack! Barack! I got it!"  


No, Chris! (4.00 / 3)
I'm a fan, Chris, and I generally think you get things right. But I think you're WAY off here, mostly because you have a bit of a habit of caricaturing Democrats you dislike and putting those you do like (Dodd) on a pedestal.

Clinton and Edwards are both unpickable (scandal for the latter, Bill hates Obama for the former), so his not picking them says very little about his "care" for the "top tier." It's politics, and it's also personal. The Clintons treat Obama like an uppity black guy, so I don't think that helps any personal connection he'd try to make (which he says he wants) with HRC.

Bayh is a swing state pick and a reinforcing (midwest, youth) pick. Yep, he's very DLC/establishment, too.

But I continue to think that saying Obama loses his Iraq judgment card by picking someone who was for the war is intellectually lazy, and also happens to be wrong. The whole point is that most of the country supported the war, so Obama can still tout his judgment and point to his VP as an instance of someone COMING AROUND TO HIS POSITION, agreeing that HE WAS RIGHT, and rejecting the neoconservative foreign policy. It'd be a shift for Bayh or whoever, but no one cares if the VP flip flops. The whole country has flip flopped on that question. They want a VP candidate who shows them the flip-flop was OK because he experienced it too. Obama cannot win a campaign based on how much smarter he was than the rest of us.

Also, you continue to say Dodd is somehow anti-establishment. He's anti-establishment on one issue... FISA. He voted for the war, let's remember. He strikes me as WAY more establishment (his dad was a senator too, heh--somehow you only mentioned that for Bayh) than anyone else on that list. (Don't get me started on Countrywide. Dodd refers to himself as a "pro-growth Democrat." He's in bed with the financial institutions).

So I think you're wrong on what these picks would mean.

Personally, for the pure politics of it, I think he ought to choose Bayh or Sebelius. Both are very helpful to him culturally, and both reinforce him in unique ways (Bayh: Midwest, Youth; Sebelius: Iraq, Midwest, Kansas, post-partisan progressive).

But since politics isn't always more important than ideology and policy, Obama ought to choose the more progressive Sebelius. She's the only one who would truly be a great leader after Obama.


Not much to go on. (0.00 / 0)
First off, I don't think there is any modern evidence of the idea that a run-of-the-mill VP pick can carry a state for his or her ticket.  You could cite LBJ, but LBJ was the Speaker of the House and in control of a way larger slice of the party than just the Texas DP, and also he forced his way onto the ticket. Meaning the reason he got the nomination wasn't that he was expected to carry Texas.  There's nobody of the stature of LBJ available.  If Obama chose Pelosi, I think the main reaction would be incredulity.

As far as an attempt to "balance" the ticket, in the present circumstances, only Hillary can do that, since she is the choice of a large faction of the party.  Attempts to "balance" the ticket by choosing a DLC or a token Repig will simply show that Obama is what his accusers say he is, namely weak, vacillating, and indecisive.  Obama is going to win or lose on his own merits, and if he chooses someone who is not ideologically aligned with him (whatever that really is), then he doesn't appreciate that reality.  Unfortunately, this is one of the major blind spots the party has suffered from in the recent past, and given Obama's distaste for conflict, may be one he shares.

Secondly, I believe some of the reason for believing that at least some of these people are on the short list is the amount of vetting going on by Caroline Kennedy's committee.  For instance, it's been reported that Biden and Dodd were being asked to furnish more information than some of the other speculative possibilities.  There may be people who are deep into the vetting process that we don't know about, too, though.  Meaning this short list may be too short.

Any choice which weakens Obama in public opinion should be eschewed.  If he chooses a woman, she had better be a tough bitch, and someone who can more than hold her own with snotty, sneering, arrogant Repigs.  If he chooses another ethnic minority, he or she had better be someone everybody loves.  Obama is on shaky ground with the left, which I think is the way he wants it.  A choice to the left would reinforce him with me, but might not with the public at large.

I would think that, given the extremely low quality of the American electorate, Edwards would be a risky pick.  Headlines on the supermarket tabloids are actually the main source of news for a certain demographic, which I can only hope doesn't bother to vote.

If O chooses Kaine or Bayh, I will consider my attitude of standing aloof from his campaign, while favoring it and intending to vote for it, vindicated.  Any of the other three, and many others not thought to be on the short list, would cause me to warm to O.  


Here is what they mean to me (0.00 / 0)
Kaine: I want to win Virginia, and Kaine makes that more likely
Bayh: I want to win Indiana, and Bayh makes that more likely
Biden: Kaine and Bayh can't help me in their states, and I don't want to f* up
Dodd: Kaine and Bayh can't win their states, Biden puts his foot in his mouth to much, and I don't want to f* up.
Sebelius: I need help with women, and there is no way I am picking Hillary.

Sorry, the VP choice is about one thing only: who helps Obama win.

Looking at the state of play, I like none of these choices.  The best choices are Strickland (nail Ohio) or Owens (nail Colorado).

The best choice above all is still Bob Graham, who would win Florida for Obama, and who was against the War and has tons of experience.  


BOLD OBAMA PICK (4.00 / 1)
How about Obama do the unconventional and announce beofer the convention : "I am want the American people to see who I will ask me to help me govern. As a result, I am announcing today ---

VIce Presidential nominee Gov. Kathleen Sebelius,
Sec. of State nominee Sen. Joe Biden, and
Sec. of Defense nominee Gen. Wesley Clark.

It basically tells the country that I want a leader who has bipartisan consensus building approaches to progressive government as VP, and when it comes to foreign affairs and national security I have Biden and Clark that are my chief deputies.

This would allow attack dogs like Biden and Clark to have higher visibility and a larger audience to make their sharpest critiques of McCain-Bush. In addition, it allows Sebelius the chance to focus more on the economy, energy, health care, and education around the country as a governor who has real experience.


I can see a lot of advantages (0.00 / 0)
to this plan.  Edwards could be held in reserve as Special Prosecutor investigating BushCo crimes.

[ Parent ]
Richardson more helpful (0.00 / 0)
Bill Richardson as Secretary of State would help the ticket, especially if announced early.

Biden is the logical choice (0.00 / 0)
I have thought this for months.  

1. Biden is tired of being in the Senate, and would bring lots of energy to the race.
2.  He is a "known quantity" to the MSM, which will treat him with more respect, and with great access.
3.  I get the sense that Biden and Obama actually like each other.
4.  He is an effective attack dog, as he comes across as a straight shooter in TV interviews and debates.
5.  He is accepted by many more conservative Democrats, who will express their comfort by voting along party lines.
6.  He is already an advocate for strong action on Darfur and global warming, and can effectively attack opponents of action on either.
7.  The fact that he couches his conversion on Iraq to having been lied to by the administration makes him an effective person to reach out to voters who feel the same way, thereby cushioning for those voters the "I told you so" message from Obama.
8.  His foreign policy bona fides will make it easy for him to go after McCain on Iraq without appearing "presumtuous".
9.  His election as VP bumps Dodd up to Chairman of the Foreign Relations committee.  This makes Dodd beholden to Obama indirectly, and places an expert on Latin America in charge of that committee at a critical stage in the relationship between Latin America and the US.
10.  Not to mention that we wouldn't have to endure his soliloquys during Judiciary committee proceedings.
 


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