Obama Campaign No Movement, MoJo Panelists Agree

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 21:00


But Will It Be The End Of Race-Based Affirmative Action? --Glenn Loury Asks

I rarely disagree with Digby on anything more than minor details, but this time her gloss just seems wrong to me.  

Here is a fascinating post over at Mother Jones:
    Is Barack Obama exaggerating when he compares his campaign to the great progressive moments in US history? We asked two dozen writers, thinkers, and historians to answer that question; read their responses below.
I think the most interesting thing about the answers is the degree to which just about everyone sounds ambivalent or confused. It's a very odd array of answers from people who are immersed in politics and history and who should be able to rattle off a compelling rationale for the candidate without any problem, even if they disagree with the notion that it's a movement on par with civil rights or the labor movement.

There are plenty of other things Digby says in this post that I agree with, but there are two things wrong with this part. (1) I think it's clear that the vast majority of folks know the campaign is no movement, and say so in a variety of informative ways. They are neither ambivilent nor confused, though they may disagree with one another somewhat. (2) I don't think any of them saw it as their job to "rattle off a compelling rationale for" Obama, so what's the big deal that they didn't?  This isn't an indication of confusion, much less anything else, aside from the question they were trying to answer.

What's more, some of their answers were well worth thinking about--or at least worth reading for some small sense of not being alone.  And most surprisingly for me, arguably the best answer came from a somewhat surprising source--one-time "black conservative" Glenn Loury (he once held a very high position in the Reagan Administration), who has had a some fairly dramatic struggles and changes of direction in his life.  In contrast, a couple of progressive voices make some rather mundane points, albeit with a flourish. Execrpts and comments, also covering Naomi Klein, Garry Wills and Michael Kazin.

Oh, btw, the title of the Mother Jones piece is The Audacity of Hype?"

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama Campaign No Movement, MoJo Panelists Agree
Before plunging into Loury's response, I'd like to  look at some other views expressed, beginning with a zip through a few shorter clips.

A Broad Consensus: No Movement Here

Michael Kazin, pre-eminent historian of the Populist era sets things straight in a no-nonsense fashion:

To state the obvious: A presidential campaign is not a social movement; its objective is to elect an individual, not to win rights or power or cultural influence for a large group of people who have a set of deep-seated grievances. But Obama's campaign and the success he's achieved, so far, does depend on the size, ardor, and creativity of the progressive movement that has been growing since the 2000 election.

And a number of others echo him.

Debra Dickerson, Author, The End of Blackness:

Kudos to Obama for reaching transcendence, but no way is the undeniable excitement he's generated anything remotely resembling America's past great progressive movements.

Jennifer Baumgardner, Author, Look Both Ways: Bisexual Politics:

Barack Obama is saying "Yes we can...support a biracial (Ivy-educated, male, lawyer) candidate for the highest office in the nation," which shouldn't be confused with "Yes we can...wage a social justice revolution in which everybody has health care, the death penalty is considered an abomination, and we won't bomb Pakistan."

Harold Evans, Author, The American Century:

Obama has rhetoric to match Bryan's, but while the statements are gratifying, even glorious, they are not all well-enough defined yet to constitute anything comparable to the great progressive movements that gave us our present.

John Judis, Journalist:

I think Obama has run a brilliant campaign, but not necessarily a "great progressive" one. Purely in policy terms, he is running a center-left campaign similar, say, to Jimmy Carter in 1976 and far less bold than, say, Bill Clinton in 1992. All the stuff about reforming Washington is very much in the line of Carter-John Anderson-Ross Perot.

Michael Kinsley, Columnist:

Of course he's exaggerating. That is not a crime. In fact, it's almost required in a presidential candidate. If you don't have some grandiose historical moment in your pocket, you get nailed as Ted Kennedy famously did for lacking "vision."

Chris Rabb, Blogger, Afro-Netizen:

Obama's candidacy is not a movement, no matter how historic and unique it may be. It is a fascinating and noteworthy social phenomenon, which is not the same as a movement.

Naomi Klein, Author, The Shock Doctrine:

Not a single Obama policy is unequivocal in its clarity and morality, which is the essential quality of a transformative movement.

So there you have it--from historians to bloggers, radical critics to Verailles pundits--a clear and broad consensus: not a movement.  I could have told you that last year (in fact I did), but backup is always nice.  And in this context, it refutes Digby's point about the respondents being ambivalent or confused.

I want to close this section with one last quote, the complete first paragraphs of Naomi Klein's respose, because I think it does such a clear job of capturing both what's inspiring and what's lacking in Obama's campaign:

What all transformative movements have in common is the quality of speaking up to an aspirational public, to our best possible selves. Transformative movements act like the world is better than it is, and-when they work-they inspire the world to live up to this partial projection. The Obama campaign, has, in moments, embodied precisely that quality: Obama conjures a better America and that better America shows up for him. But political moments do more than speak to our best selves; they harness that quasi-mystical power to make radical demands to transform the real world. The Obama campaign has not done this, not on any issue at the core of our current crisis. Not on global warming, the war in Iraq, the housing crisis, health care, underemployment, or the assaults on civil liberties. Not a single Obama policy is unequivocal in its clarity and morality, which is the essential quality of a transformative movement.

Another Take

Now, it should be noted that there are some other responses that could also be lumped together as a group, ones that make the point that electing a black man President is bound to make an historical impact.  And, of course, I couldn't agree more.  But Roger Wilkins wisely (bit of redundency there) recalls the impacts of Joe Louis and Jackie Robinson and taking them as a point of comparison says:

If two superb black athletes could significantly lessen the "sociocultural segregation of our society," a superb black president could significantly lessen even more the hold the past has on us, and that presidency would forever be regarded as one of the brightest lights in our national life.
 

That says it exactly.  It's not a progressive movement, but it's not chopped liver, either.  It will have a very significant impact in and of itself, which is a good thing.  But that does not a movement make.

Glenn Loury's Sober Assesment

First, for those not familiar with Loury, a  biographical clip from Wikipedia:

At age 35, he was the first black tenured professor of economics in the history of Harvard University.[2]

In 1984, Loury created controversy with "A New American Dilemma", an article in The New Republic in which he addressed "fundamental failures in black society" such as "the lagging academic performance of black students, the disturbingly high rate of black-on-black crime, and the alarming increase in early unwed pregnancies among blacks." This article brought attention and prominence, especially in conservative circles.

In 1987, Loury's career continued its ascent when he was selected to be the next Undersecretary of Education, a position which would have made him the second-highest-ranking black person in the Reagan administration. However, that same year, Loury was discovered to be carrying on an affair with Pamela Foster. Loury was later arrested for possession of cocaine.[3] An article in The New Yorker during 1995 said that Loury "was emerging as exactly the kind of person he had warned black America to avoid".[4]

Since 1987, Loury has reemerged after reclusive self-reflection as a born-again Christian and repositioned himself as a "black progressive." Loury left Harvard in 1991 to go across town to Boston University, where he headed the Institute on Race and Social Division. In 2005, Loury left Boston University for Brown University, where he was named a professor of economics, a research associate of the Population Studies and Training Center, and given a courtesy appointment in Africana studies.

In short, he's a brilliant man who's been through the wringer in a very publicly humiliating way, and yet has managed to grow as a result.  Almost alone among the coterie of those identified as "black conservatives" he clearly has a mind of his own. Although he has a more progressive outlook today, he is still idiosyncratic, which is part of what makes him worth listening to.  He will speak his mind, regardless of what others may think.  Right or wrong, that is an admirable quality we should all aspire to.  After all, in the end, what else do we have?

So, what did he have to tell Mother Jones?

Here's the beginning:

Is Barack Hussein Obama a transformative American leader on questions of race? Not when compared to Lyndon Baines Johnson.

A shocking degree of historical amnesia/ignorance has been revealed in the gushing press commentary on Obama's "race" speech. It seems to me that people are confusing something that is akin to a cult of personality with an actual political movement that is informed by a comprehensive ideological vision and that is capable of making lasting institutional reforms. Obama's address given in Philadelphia last March-in the aftermath of the initial firestorm created by the public exposure of some of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's more controversial remarks-has been called the greatest public oration on the question of race since Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech, given at the 1963 march on Washington. This claim is, I think, demonstrably false.

I offer as counterexample to this claim LBJ's speech given as a commencement address at Howard University in 1965. These two instances of public rhetoric were motivated by very different forces: Obama's was given under duress, in the midst of a primary campaign, in an effort to control the damage to his electoral prospects from his association with Rev. Wright. LBJ, by contrast, was speaking as a sitting president, articulating a guiding vision that would inform those aspects of his legislative agenda, the war on poverty, that dealt with racial themes. But this is precisely my point. Unlike Obama, LBJ staked out a political position that has had consequences: That the people of the United States were obligated to undertake a massive expansion of social investment for the disadvantaged in American society, and that this obligation rested at least in part on the historical necessity that we act so as to reduce racial inequality in our country. Obama sometimes gives the impression that the less said about our mutual obligation as Americans to act so as to reduce inequality of social outcomes between the races in the country, in the jails as well as the schools, the better.

Like I said, that's just the beginning.  Loury not only reminds us how much of a difference LBJ's commitment made--something we never seem to hear Obama talk about, he also freely acknowledges that it was imperfect.  He has a well-rounded grasp of things, including his own right to perceptions and opinions that in some circles might be deemed unacceptable.

Of course, nobody can expect Obama to argue for a return of the Great Society. Still, his speech-and more broadly his views about race and American social obligation, whatever their merits-are not in the same league with LBJ's, not even close.

That should be obvious, but there are places where one can get shouted down for saying it. He continues:

Will Obama's effective renegotiation of America's implicit racial contract redound to the long-term benefit of African American people? Not necessarily, especially to the extent that it lets the American mainstream off the hook in terms of their responsibilities to narrow the racial gap.

Again, it should be obvious, but...

Barack Obama, in this campaign, is engaged in a de facto renegotiation of the implicit American racial contract. What, one may ask, might that implicit racial contract be? Well, in a word, it is the broad recognition and acceptance by governing elites in this country-in the press, in the courts and legal establishment, in the academy and in the broader political culture-that structural impediments exist to the equal participation of blacks in American life, and that government-sponsored initiatives-whether race-specific or universal in character-are an appropriate vehicle for redress in this situation.

Loury goes on to elaborate this point at some length, before turning to a very deep and real concern that I've heard virtually no discussion of on the blogs--the concern that Obama, in order to further prove his "post-partisan" "transformative" bona fides, may himself repudiate race-based affirmative action.  This is a concern that Loury approaches with a mixture of sensibilities, historical, sociological, psychological, moral and political, that is strangely reminiscent of James Baldwin. Though, of course, Loury is nowhere near Baldwin's radical outlook, in these passages, he echoes Baldwin's textured appreciation for different imperatives struggle for our allegience:

This unfinished racial business, I would argue, is a part of what you inherit when you become an American.

While there has never been unanimity on these matters, there nevertheless has been a consensus view-a view, I might add, that was recently reaffirmed by a relatively conservative US Supreme Court in the University of Michigan affirmative action cases. This consensus has been under attack for a generation, and now it is, in effect, being renegotiated by Barack Obama in this political campaign. Look for him to throw affirmative action under the bus by advocating that we transition to a scheme based on class and not race come September. Some may object that Obama's campaign rhetoric and speeches clearly reveal his appreciation of the structural bases for racial inequality. They will say that his view is nuanced, pragmatic, and historically well informed. This all may be true, but the question that matters is not whether Barack Obama knows anything about history or sociology. The critical question is, What are the American people prepared to do next, if anything, about these matters? And how will Obama's purportedly transformative vision of American politics promote progress?

I am sure that a lot of people think they know the answers.  A lot of people have been sure about a lot of things regarding Barack Obama and where he stands.  A lot of people have been wrong.  As noted above, Loury doesn't shrink from his own perceptions, his own sense of what is right before him, whatever it may be.  This is what reminds me of James Baldwin.  And so he continues:

The answers to these questions are far from clear. What we are witnessing in this campaign is, in effect, that Obama's very person has been taken by many Americans to be a site for public expiation of collective racial sin! I fully understand why many Americans would leap at the chance for such cheap grace. Still, I fail to see why serious advocates of the interests of black people must fall into the same swoon. Here's my bottom line: Obama's authenticity as a representative of the black experience before the American public, even at this late date, is not self-evident-far from it. Saying this does not make me some kind of racemongering black radical. This is not even a criticism of him. It is merely a statement of fact. Nor is it an imputation to him of any invidious motives. Sure, he is ambitious. And yes, he is a politician, doing what politicians must do to get themselves elected. But this issue-concerning what consequences will ensue from the heated discourses of this campaign, for the American civic obligation to pursue greater racial equality in the decades and generations to come-this is a vitally important matter for reflection and discussion.

So much bullshit dispensed of so quickly!  It takes one's breath away.

But, of course, this immediately opens Loury up to charges of being mired in the past, in the polarized politics of yada-yada-yada.  He is not impressed:

These concerns are not merely the whining of an older generation that is unwilling to accept that things have changed. If "change" in our racial sensibilities means accommodating the weariness of many Americans with our long, historic, and still unfinished pursuit of racial justice, then I have no trouble standing athwart such progress.

Even though I've quoted Loury at great length, I've left much out, in addition to constantly interrupting him.  You really owe it to yourselves to go read the whole thing, because Loury is speaking the kinds of truth that we in the all-too-white progressive blogosphere pay far too little attention to, regardless of our best intentions.

A Coda From Garry Wills

Garry Wills, Author, What the Gospels Meant:

It is true that Obama is facing a task of historic scale and difficulty, but he has not sufficiently identified it. The task is to restore a Constitution shredded by secrecy, illegal detention, and torture. The real question is whether he can convince the American people that these atrocities must be wiped out-and he has not begun to do that.

Close, Garry, but no cigar.  The real question--particularly after his FISA vote--is whether Obama himself is convinced that these atrocities must be wiped out... or even that they are atrocities.  For here, in parallel with the point that Loury makes, it simply is not clear, in the end, what Obama's answer will be, when he's asked the age-old question: Which side are you on?

Don't let the image fool you--Natalie Merchant Sings




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Oh Good (0.00 / 0)
Another diary about how much Obama sucks. I would've thought I wandered on TalkLeft, but this is a rant about him being NOT liberal enough.  

This Is What We Get For Not Having A Reading Comprehension Test (4.00 / 2)
before people are allowed to comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
If it wasn't coming from the usual suspects... (0.00 / 0)
then I might even give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
Check The Mirror, (0.00 / 0)
Dude.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I didn't make any statements... (0.00 / 0)
all I did was say this dude aint crazy, nor does he lack reading comprehension.

I'd be willing to wager that a smaller % of my comments/posts are about Obama than others, such as yourself.

I'm not even dissagreeing with your assessment, I just can't help but notice that a very high percentage of your diaries are about how Obama isn't "all he's cracked up to be."

Those are my words not yours, but you make the mistake of thinking that all of Obama's defenders are irrational kool-aid drinkers who take his word as gospel. I don't trust Obama much more than any other Democratic candidate but he was my favorite out of the primaries.

I think you will be looking silly once he is elected and turns out to be a lot more progressive than he was given credit for. You are right in pointing out that he hasn't proven much of anything but you are wrong in expecting him to embrace the entire progressive agenda while he is running for President in the General Election. Either Hillary or Edwards would have both moved to the center as well. Obama is at a dissadvantage because of his skin color and he has to be even more careful not to sound "more liberal" than the mainstream. If Obama acted/behaved/took the stances we all want him to then he would be painted as a minority left-wing radical and would have a very slim chance of actually winning this crucial election.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
Is it even -possible- for a presidential (4.00 / 1)
campaign to be a real social movement? I don't think so. Do you?

"Obama's authenticity as a representative of the black experience before the American public, even at this late date, is not self-evident--far from it."

I'm not sure I know what that means. Is anyone's authenticity as a representative of the black experience before the American public self-evident? Can an individual fully represent 'the black experience'? Certainly Obama is a partial representative of the black experience.

I guess this just seems like "Obama: Still Not Jesus" wanking to me. He's a politician. Good in some ways. Sucky in others.


But That's Just It (0.00 / 0)
Loury isn't blaming Obama for this.  He's questioning, just like you are.  But he's also aware that impossible situations like this have been used before to reverse gains and erode porgress already made.

The situation here is as old as racism itself.  If an individual black stands out, he's put in the position of standing with his people, and being discounted wholesale along with the rest, or else jumping through hoops that will, to a certain extent, validate the entire system.

It's obviously not the fault of the individual caught in this situation.  But that doesn't mean that one should not criticize what is going down, and even, at times, criticize the would-be leader trapped in it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But Mother Jones established this (0.00 / 0)
instance of this situation.

I don't see anyone here (and I haven't read the article itself yet) making the criticism you (rightly) make. That the kind of questions posed by Mother Jones (and the title 'The Audacity of Hype' itself is pretty questionable) actually perpetuates this damaging dynamic.


[ Parent ]
Unless We Misunderstand Each Other (0.00 / 0)
I think that a number of people--that I quoted here--were making that point, some more explicitly than others.  Political campaigns and social movements are simply two different animals, and it only sows confusion, misunderstanding and disappointment when you fail to recognize that.

But Obama has argued otherwise, and thus he invites this sort of question.

Now, what I think he's actually doing is adapting some movement-building tools.  Which is fine.  But it's hardly the first time that's been done, either.

Finally, what political campaign doesn't involve hype?  Obama's at his best ridiculing McCain's mock outrage at his celebrity status and all the rest.  Just more of the same "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy from a paper-mache Republican "hero".  Yawn.

We really don't need to "protect" Obama at every turn.  He's not that weak.  He simply needs to exercise his strength.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"The Audacity of Hype?" (4.00 / 3)
I really wish liberals would learn to stop backstabbing each other.  I have no problem with a realistic discussion of Barack Obama, but I have a huge problem with the title.

"The Audacity of Hype?" plays directly into the narrative that McCain is using to lower Obama's approval ratings.  If they put that title on the cover, McCain can use it in a commercial for great success; the fact the article worries that Obama isn't liberal enough makes no difference at all.


Because Millions Of Low-Info Voters Read Mother Jones (0.00 / 1)
It's like, wayyyyy more popular than People or The National Enquirer.

Oh, wait....

But, at least it got you to comment.

Snicker! Snicker! Snicker!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Small, simple things (0.00 / 0)
It takes very little to come up with a title that doesn't promote John McCain's candidacy.  One would think the folks at MoJo would care about such things.

Perhaps I'm wrong and all they care about is selling magazines.


[ Parent ]
Even I think title was poorly chosen (0.00 / 0)
Even though I have long thought it was true...at this point in time given where we are...it just doesn't help get him elected.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
As I Said Above (4.00 / 1)
we don't need to protect Obama all the time.  He's not that weak.  He simply needs to exercise his strength.

If Loury had internalized this sort of thinking, he wouldn't have said what he said, either.

Look at us.  Comment after comment about the title, and how much thought about what Loury had to say?

We're gotten to the point where we're no better than the Versailles media, all sizzle, no steak.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Loury has a brilliant take on this (4.00 / 2)
I don't know about you...but I think class based affirmative action will result in actual damage to race and gender progress.

What people want to deny is that anti black and anti female discrimination still exists and operates in people's decisionmaking.  they may think it has no impact on how they make choices but it does.

So if one switches to class based affirmative action...it will be amazing to all and statistically improbable how the vast majority of those who would benefit will wind up to be while men.

If you give biased, especially unconsciously biased, decisionmakers an out.... to not pick a black person or a woman...then they won't.    

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
And The White Men Who Get Helped Will Be Someone's Cousin (0.00 / 0)
Who'd a thunk it?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
Those forms of affirmative action where some guy just gets to decide with some sort of quota or guideline certainly seems ripe for abuse.  

In my thoughts below I was definitely thinking of the more large scale, bureaucratic stuff, like college admission and scholarships.  (That, despite the fact I put college admissions into the other kind of affirmative action, where diversity should be supported, regardless of any future advancements.)


[ Parent ]
this is just to point out (0.00 / 0)
that Obama hasn't actually said he's going to move to class-based affirmative action (as far as I know). Although part of me thinks it would be very much in character for him to do so, I can also envision him finding some way to address class mobility concerns (as a separate issue from race) without touching affirmative action.

[ Parent ]
Why defend the title? (0.00 / 0)
Seriously.


[ Parent ]
Why Attack It? (0.00 / 0)
It's a typical "go for the trivial" response.  Sizzle, not steak.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
You're right (4.00 / 1)
Liberal magazines promoting the Republican's primary attack against the Democrat is complete trivial. Complaining about this would be as pointless as complaining about some Democratic politician saying something good about McCain.

I think we can all agree that promoting Republican memes is something we never have to worry about.

I stand corrected.


[ Parent ]
Why Attack It? (0.00 / 0)
Because its precisely the kind of right wing frame that you are always railing against using.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Ehhh (0.00 / 0)
I had the same immediate reaction to that title, which seems completely unnecessary.  I have to say, however, that Obama is setting himself up for this kind of thing when he makes statements like comparing his campaign to the progressive movements of the early 20th century.  Many forms of criticism are truly unproductive, but its hard to expect smart people to just shut up and get in line when you keep say things that are ridiculous.  This is especially true for anybody who has not been on board from the beginning.

Bad title that doesn't help Obama get elected, dumb statement that doesn't help him get elected either and just fuels the "arrogant" meme - both camps would be well advised not to do things like this in the future.


John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


[ Parent ]
I could not agree with you more (0.00 / 0)
about the title.

[ Parent ]
Affirmative Action (0.00 / 0)
This consensus has been under attack for a generation, and now it is, in effect, being renegotiated by Barack Obama in this political campaign. Look for him to throw affirmative action under the bus by advocating that we transition to a scheme based on class and not race come September.

This gets into issues far too complex to cover in a simple post comment, but I think some affirmative action should be converted over to class.

The form of affirmative action designed to increase diversity should stay the same for as long as there is any difference at all in the typical experiences of various races.  For example, we still want college campuses to reflect the face of America.

But the goal of the other kind of affirmative action, the one designed to prime the pump, undo past wrongs and level the playing field is, eventually, to make itself obsolete.  But how does one transition away once it is obsolete?  How does one break through the backlash to allow the programs to succeed?

It seems to me that making affirmative action class based still statistically helps blacks and other minorities much more than whites, so it still accomplishes the main goal  (again, statistically) and will for as long the reality racial problems exist.  But as the problems go away and more minorities fight their way up into the middle class, the programs automatically adjust.

My guess is Obama will "renegotiate" this contract and I suspect the result will be fairly popular.

(But to repeat the first point, diversity is also an important goal separate from leveling the playing field; understanding the difference in purpose of various policies is important.)


This Is A Nice Soothing Narrative, But Has Little Relationship To Reality (4.00 / 1)
The book, Social Dominance: An Intergroup Theory of Social Hierarchy and Oppression cites an international meta-analysis that finds no examples of an affirmative action program anywhere in the world, even ones that are so strong they are unconstitutional in the US, which levels the playing field so that the subordinate racial, ethnic or religious group has equal opportunities with the dominant group.

In short, it's not just "historical" inequalities that need to be overcome, and there's not just something particularly wrong with American blacks that they can't get ahead.  Identity-based group inequality is simply a far more powerful disadvantage than we are willing to recognize.  And this sort of soothing narrative about transitioning away from directly confronting the problem is actually a "kinder gentler" form of rolling back progress in racial justice.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Slippery Slope? Long, hard slog (0.00 / 0)
And this sort of soothing narrative about transitioning away from directly confronting the problem is actually a "kinder gentler" form of rolling back progress in racial justice.

Is the concern that class based affirmative action would be less successful than race based, or that it is the first step in a slippery slope to abolish affirmative action altogether?  I agree that the later could be a concern (though I decided a few years ago to not use slippery slope arguments or logic) but I don't see the logic of the former concern, statistically.  Whatever percentage of drop-off in success due to dilution could be made up due to increased popularity and decreased opposition; at least, that would be the goal.

The thought is that backlash to race based affirmative action is real and lessens the value.  If the same results can be obtained with less backlash the overall effect is improved.

Now perhaps I'm simply wrong on the backlash and the ability to minimize.  After all, conservatives manage to make the non racially based welfare into a race-bating issue.  But we are talking percentages, here.  What combination gives us the most success.

The the book you mention seems exactly like the type of information needed to understand and solve the problem, however hard and long it takes, but the point about the success of affirmative action is barely relevant to what I said.  I'm talking long term social change and you are discussing short term success of the direct programs.

If we are going to succeed, it is the children and grand children of today's racists we need to get to.  They are the ones we have a chance to radically change how they think of race and treat people different than themselves.  I'm under no illusion there is a quick fix -- this will take generations.  But I'm not going to just be a defeatist and claim it's too hard, either.


[ Parent ]
My Point Is, There's No There There (4.00 / 1)
The opposition to affirmative action is based on a fact-free reationary narrative.  Just look at the role that the term "quotas" plays in it.  Quotas were ruled unconstitutional under the Bakke decision in 1978.  They haven't actually been the issue since then.  But that little detail hasn't stopped the right from using the word over and over and over again, placing it at the center of their narratives.

The solution is not to chase the chimera of something the right will accept. The organized right will never accept anything that actually promotes increasing equality.  The solution is to discredit their narratives--which means engaging in a counter-hegemonic "culture war"/"war of position".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Organized right (0.00 / 0)
I actually agree with you.  But the goal is to change the minds of those who are racist, not the organized right.  This has nothing to do with "what the right will accept" and has everything to do with what the person on the ground is actually concerned about.  I realize separating the two is hard and heaven knows I may the details wrong, but the distinction is important.

When we get into these discussions I amazed how often some on the left end up sounding like Dick Cheney or other neocons when discussing terrorism.  We know the difference between appeasing terrorists and actually winning over the hearts and minds of those that sympathize with them.  But I'm not so sure we understand the same difference on the home front.

Now, I've been thinking this through a bit more over night and looked up a bit on what actual affirmative action looks like.  I'll admit there may not be a whole lot out there that would continue to work correctly if moved over to class based.  But when it can be done I think it probably should be.


[ Parent ]
My Point, Quite Simply (0.00 / 0)
Is that Rove & Co are the enemy.  You defeat them, and the rest is easy.

When you say:

But the goal is to change the minds of those who are racist, not the organized right.

I disagree completely--but not for the reason you might suppose.

In fact, for perhaps an almost opposite reason:  Because I just don't think there are that many racists out there.  What there is, rather, is a whole lot of Racism Without Racists.  And while there are a lot of attitudes that have to be changed, the major obstacle we face is not the conscious intention of those people.  It is the ways that they are manipulated and mislead by Rove & Co.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (0.00 / 0)
I came very close to branding you the pessimist in this debate, but you just dashed past me on the optimism.

I agree completely that Rove & Co. stir the pot on racism, but I'm not quite ready to say they are the pot.  These relationships are circular and reinforcing, so I hesitate to put a percentage on it, but it seems hard to believe Republican propaganda is responsible for more than half of the racism in the country.

That said, I used the term racist generically and with a broad brush.  I agree it isn't the conscious intentions that is important.  However, I think the unconscious results would be there even without the misleading.


[ Parent ]
Well, Just About ALL Social Relations Are Circular And Reinforcing (0.00 / 0)
And, of course, the whole point of social dominance theory is that there are complex relationships involved, not the least of which is the individual attitudinal complex known as "social dominance orientation" (SDO).

But the crucial role of SDO doesn't determine the form or content of an hierarchical system of social dominance.  It merely provides the raw material.  It's the legitimating myths and the existing institutions that are primarily responsible for the specifics of the system, and that's where movement conservatism comes to the fore as a driving cause.  Take it out of the picture, and a great deal of social change becomes possible, in part because so few individuals are consciously aligned with racism any more.  This is an ideological advantage that we have never had before in America, but we've never had the chance to take advantage of it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What side are you on....a great song and a great question (4.00 / 4)
http://www.geocities.com/Nashv...

Sung by the Almanac Singers ....Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Millard Lampell and Lee Hayes written by Florence Reece, the wife of one of the leaders of the Harlan County Miners Strike in the 30's.  

That was an era when it mattered which side you chose to fight for....

Barack Obama...thinks he can be on both sides...all sides

Movements are unidirectional not diffuse...they put forward actual but also far reaching and seemingly unattainable goals.  A political leader is supposed to make those goals into actions and legislation.

Glenn Loury is absolutely right to have chosen LBJ and his historic...but very real commitment to civil rights and voting rights for black Americans as a counterpoint to Barack Obama. It's a wonderful speech with grace tones and courage throughout.  This was a speech intended to make a movement manifest in legislation.  And LBJ knew there was political peril involved.....it was intended to save people's lives, hopes, dreams, not just one political career.

http://www.historyplace.com/sp...

All Americans must have the privileges of citizenship, regardless of race, and they are going to have those privileges of citizenship regardless of race.

But I would like to caution you and remind you that to exercise these privileges takes much more than just legal rights. It requires a trained mind and a healthy body. It requires a decent home and the chance to find a job and the opportunity to escape from the clutches of poverty.

Of course people cannot contribute to the nation if they are never taught to read or write; if their bodies are stunted from hunger; if their sickness goes untended; if their life is spent in hopeless poverty, just drawing a welfare check

.

Thank you for this diary ...it's nice to know where our ideals came from and when it mattered.

You can only accomplish positive change...positive good...if you make a decision to take a side.



"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Yeah, Actually, (4.00 / 1)
I went looking for Pete Seegar, but this video is just sooo great.  Also, Natalie just sings her heart out.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
To pretend (4.00 / 1)
that the election of an African American would not be a singular moment strikes me as patently absurd.  That this is somehow overshadowed by FISA is asinine - and I am growing less tolerant of this by the day.

Is it a movement?  Well, let's [put it this way: Mississippi is within 10 points because African Americans are going to turn out in such enourmous numbers that Obama may actually have an outside shot at the state.

To the white left - this doesn't qualify as a movement.  

Why I have no idea.  Turn on and African American radio show in drive time if you don't think this matters.  I know few African Americans who do not think this is the most improtant election of thier lives.

None of this is of interest to the white left - which frankly appears more concerned with its own self rightesnous.


I think the point (4.00 / 1)
is that it isn't a "movement" along the lines of civil rights-- one with an ideological perspective. I don't think anyone is arguing that electing Obama would be some kind of meaningless gesture.  

[ Parent ]
bluesteel Gets It. Why Don't You? (0.00 / 0)
Campaign <> Social Movement

It doesn't matter how important, significant or unprecedented the campaign may be, the equation still holds.

Now, there can be a coincidence of the two.  This certainly was the case with Goldwater in 1964, for example.

But where is the evidence for that today?  What ideological content has Obama embraced? What transformative principles?

In 1964, Goldwater didn't run away from his base.  Today, Obama is doing exactly that with his post-primary shift to the right.  Demographic outreach to boost black turnout is great.  But if it's about nothing more than "black faces in high places" then the impact is precisely what Roger Wilkins points to, and nothing more.  Which is surely a good thing, but it's not a movement.  And if it results in what Glenn Loury fears, then the impact would be decidedly more mixed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A Transformational Movement (0.00 / 0)
Reading the quotes in this post, it sounds like
the pundits are arguing that is just another election,
thus the Obama campaign (although inspiring) is just
another campaign.

They couldn't be more wrong.

The Republican goal is to create a permanent
Republican majority. They might yet succeed, given
that a huge number of Americans now make their political
decision based on cultural indicators (i.e. who do I
want to have a beer with) rather than policy.

To see where this country is headed, read:
The Sack of Rome: Media + Money + Celebrity =
Power = Silvio Berlusconi by Alexander Stille

So, at this point electing anyone who isn't
insane (from a policy standpoint) would be
transformative. A majority of Americans get most
of their news from TV, and the corporations that
own the TV channels (and in addition other mass
media) obviously are going to want McCain to win.
For Obama and the progressive movement to create
organization and communication channels outside
of TV strong enough to win, would in itself be
a huge transformation.

A progressive movement which succeeded in just
stopping the insanity, would be an extremely
important historical movement.

Can you imagine if in Germany there had been
a social movement to stop the Nazis? Even
if this social movement did not transformationally
improve German society, but just stopping the
German slide into evil, would be an incredible
achievement.


First Off, They're NOT Pundits. Most of Them, Anyways. (0.00 / 0)
Second, you're ignoring the fact that they're responding to one question (is his campaign a movement?), and you're criticizing them for not focusing on another one (is this election particularly crucial).

Here's what MoJo asked:

Is Barack Obama exaggerating when he compares his campaign to the great progressive moments in US history? We asked two dozen writers, thinkers, and historians to answer that question; read their responses below.

As an editor myself, if I asked two dozen people to answer that question, and they went on at length about how important this election was, I would get back to them and say, "Yes, I know this election is important, now could you please answer the question I asked"?"

Third,

A progressive movement which succeeded in just
stopping the insanity, would be an extremely
important historical movement.

True, perhaps.  But where is said movement?  Much more evident in the netroots than inside Obama's campaign.

Can you imagine if in Germany there had been
a social movement to stop the Nazis? Even
if this social movement did not transformationally
improve German society, but just stopping the
German slide into evil, would be an incredible
achievement.

Um, there actually was such a movement, but it lost.  The difference between the leftwing movements in interwar Germany and America today is that we are far more complacent, politically.  That doesn't bode well for us.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Movement versus Campaign (4.00 / 1)
Paul Rosenberg wrote:

"Second, you're ignoring the fact that they're
responding to one question (is his campaign a
movement?), and you're criticizing them for not
focusing on another one (is this election
particularly crucial)."

Yes, I don't think I articulated very well
what I was trying to get across.

Is this campaign a movement? versus is this
campaign/election particularly crucial?

What I was trying to convey, is that there
is a movement to take America back from
the Republicans and that Obama's campaign
is a crucial part of that movement.

The reason I think that the movement "to take
back America" qualifies as a movement is
because the Republican Party has become
so corrupt, insane, etc... means that "taking
back America" is the same as saving America
from radical political insanity (a worthy
movement goat).

"True, perhaps. But where is said movement?  
Much more evident in the netroots than inside
Obama's campaign."

I disagree with you here, Obama has been
masterful at re-creating what has been lost
(or at least hugely weakened) for the past
30-40 years, an effective Democratic Party
machine.

And the Democratic Party machine is a movement,
which is part of the larger progressive movement,
which includes the netroots.

Note: because the large corporations (i.e.
Republican supporters) own all the TV channels,
the only way the Democratic Party would
have any hope of getting and keeping power
is through building a large political machine.
And building such a machine is only possible
as part of a larger progressive movement.

"Um, there actually was such a movement, but it lost."

Yes, absolutely correct. I should has wrote that
if said movement had been successful it would
have had a huge transformational effect by
stopping the slide into evil.

"The difference between the leftwing movements
in interwar Germany and America today is that we
are far more complacent, politically.  That
doesn't bode well for us."

Yes, we definitely agree here.


[ Parent ]
Actually, Digby's right! (0.00 / 0)
It's the context of Obama's candidacy that matters most -- not whether he embodies a particular set of ideologies that are pure-progressive in nature. The fact that no one responding to the editors of Mother Jones -- or to this diary on Open Left for that matter -- actually "knows what Obama stands for" (her words) is blatantly apparent. But it's not a reason to be ambivalent about his candidacy. After all, the president who Glenn Loury lauds as a leader who articulated "a guiding vision . . . to undertake a massive expansion of social investment for the disadvantaged in American society" cheated his way into office by stuffing the ballot boxes with the names of dead people. All this mulling over which side Obama is on in every little instance is not only counter-productive on a pragmatic level, it's just an exercise in mere cynicism.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

God, The Rightwing Memes Are Thick Arouind Here (0.00 / 0)
After all, the president who Glenn Loury lauds as a leader who articulated "a guiding vision . . . to undertake a massive expansion of social investment for the disadvantaged in American society" cheated his way into office by stuffing the ballot boxes with the names of dead people.

1. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  Even if it were true?

2. You do know that (a) the credible ballot-stuffing accusations go back to a time when he was running against politicians who were every bit as outside the rules as he was, right? And that (b) the attempt to taint the 1960 election has been thoroughly refuted, right?

It's the context of Obama's candidacy that matters most -- not whether he embodies a particular set of ideologies that are pure-progressive in nature.

(1) No one's talking "pure" around here.  That's a deceitful attempt to paint anything the least bit progressive (such as defending the Constitution or even the Magna Charta)  as an unrealistic, insular, fringe "purism", when it actually represents a broad majoritarian position.

(2) Your claim about "what matters most" assumes that Versailles is right, and that the way to win elections is to spurn popular positions and try to blur the differences with Mr. 28%.  It is, to say the least, a highly debatable assumption.

The fact that no one responding to the editors of Mother Jones -- or to this diary on Open Left for that matter -- actually "knows what Obama stands for" (her words) is blatantly apparent. But it's not a reason to be ambivalent about his candidacy.

And, in fact, that's what virtually everyone said.  I just didn't dwell on it.

So, in what sense was Digby right on the points I challenged?  In particular, there is nothing partticularly ambiguous or confused about anything I quoted.  The writers are dealing with a campaign that is itself ambiguous and somewhat confused, within the context of a political discourse that is profoundly ambiguous--if not downright deceitful--and confused, and they are being remarkably clear about how they respond to that ambiguity and confusion.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Rightwing Memes" rehetoric aside, (0.00 / 0)
(look, you throw up your links, I'll throw up mine) what is so "ambiguous and confused" about these arguments against Obama is their intentions. Since the purpose of making an argument is to advance a thought toward an intended conclusion, then what are these thought-spinners saying? "I discern that Obama is not in line with (fill in progressive policy concern here) because of (scant evidence A, B, C, etc. here) therefore I will . . . ." What? WHAT?
This all reminds me of a recent trip I had to my in-laws in NYC all of whom profess to be liberals but all of whom are disparaging Obama for his position on FISA or off-shore drilling or whatever the MSM is blathering about. Sure they'll vote for Obama. Grudgingly. But they won't bother sending in money, making calls, canvassing door-to-door because Obama has "failed" them. Like the writers in the Mother Jones piece, they are more apt to base their argument on their own personal criteria, rather than popularity (which as you rightly point out COULD have been the context for their points), which does make it an argument about "purity". Why do liberals DO this?
Maybe it's because they forget that a candidate like LBJ who eventually did articulate and then act on civil rights also had to run his political campaigns in every bit the same way as the context of the times seemed to insist upon (as you so acknowledge).
 

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
These AREN'T Arguments Against Obama (0.00 / 0)
And that confusion on your part, and how you express it, is precisely the problem, really.  Without a larger sense of history, each campaign floats in isolation, cut off from all the rest.

We worry about everything in terms of the current candidate, while conservatives saw through that game decades ago.  They worried first about building a movement, figuring, "If you build a movement, the candidates will come."

But you read a collection of responses to a crack-open-the-door question, that simply asks if the campaign is--as Obama himself has claimed it to be--a movement, and you construe the fact that people keep their wits about them as somehow "arguments against Obama".

They are no such thing.  They are, in fact, arguments against ambiguity and confusion.

.... And for historical realism.  If Obama was running on historical realism, he'd be at least 5-10% up in the polls.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What conservatives saw (0.00 / 0)
was that the idealogical fine points of movement politics were subservient to the identity behind the movement. Republicans are the party of authoritarian capitalistic white men and the women who love them, and if Nixon wanted to practice detente with China, Reagan wanted to raise taxes and talk SALT with the Russians, GW Bush wanted to couch conservatism in the friendly dialog of "compassion", and McCain wanted to create the false personae of a "maverick" in order to woo moderates, then all of that was and is fine and dandy because conservatives still regard each of these candidates as, above all else, "one of us" in terms of identity. What I see in this election is a lot of liberals doubting that Obama is "one of us" for idealogical reasons even though his candidacy -- much more so than any Democratic candidate since Kennedy -- is clearly identified with the progressive cause. This criticism is an implied argument against the candidate, and potentially a contributing factor to defeat.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
What I see in this election is a lot of liberals doubting that Obama is "one of us" for idealogical reasons even though his candidacy -- much more so than any Democratic candidate since Kennedy -- is clearly identified with the progressive cause.

On what basis?  I have to say that I'm 100% with Loury on this.  LBJ is much more clearly a progressive figure than Barack Obama, and that's even with his own tragic flaw of going to war in Vietnam out of "certainty" he'd be impeached if he didn't.

And, then of corse, there's George McGovern.  So, you see, the problem from my POV is that Obama defenders are constantly making these over-the-top ahistorical arguments that totally undercut what they set out trying to say.  And it just makes me doubt what sort of rational, fact-based debate can be possible, at least at this point.

Nonetheless, I will make these points:

(1) The question here is not whether the liberals being acked here will support Obama.  It's whether they think his campaign is comparable to things like the Civil Rights Movement.

(2) Liberals are both more critical and more independent--the flip sides of being less authoritarian.  So they are not as easily lead.  You want to make this a bad thing?  Go right ahead.  But don't expect me to follow.

(3)

This criticism is an implied argument against the candidate, and potentially a contributing factor to defeat.

If you're an authoritarian, who demands blind obedience, pershaps.  But if you're a critical thinker, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh come on (0.00 / 0)
"LBJ is much more clearly a progressive figure than Barack Obama"? I grew up in Texas during the 60's and 70's and this statement is laughable. LBJ was a product of machinery politics. In fact, most of the Democrats aligned with LBJ became Republicans (John Connally, to name one, became a "Democrat for Nixon"). Don't get me wrong, what LBJ accomplished in terms of the advance of the progressive movement is highly admirable. But his contribution to the history of the Civil Rights Movement was not an apparent outcome of his candidacy while he was running for office. So Obama's candidacy is not comparable to the Civil Rights Movement. It doesn't have to be. Neither was LBJ's. Someone who espouses the merits of "critical thinking" should realize this and discern that accepting that the better of two choices -- Obama -- is not "blind obedience."

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Here's A Map of LBJ's 1964 Election Victory, AFTER Passing the 1964 Civil Rights Act (0.00 / 0)

There's no other election map in US history like it.  And it's a direct result of his unprecedented ACTIONS as President--actions clearly, and profoundly aligned with the Civil Rights Movement.

In sharp contrast, here is a much more typical electoral map, one that's part of a much larger family of maps, from 1956--just 8 years earlier--which is almost the exact mirror opposite of Johnson's 1964 victory:

And of course, the 1964 Civil Rights Act was just the beginning of a whole avalanche of progressive legislation LBJ got passed, much of which was promised in advance in that campaign.

Loury's point is very well made, and Obama's constant distancing of himself from progressives is undeniable.

Except, of course, by those living in denial.

(Nothing on George McGovern, I note.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Movements and campaigns (0.00 / 0)
A few clarifying points. An electoral campaign is not a movement. The broad scale electoral coalitions needed to win in a two-party system preclude the kind of ideological or moral clarity and (usually) constituency-based organization that underly movements.

Obama's campaign is, however, made possible by movements, e.g., the antiwar movement, the movement to transform the Democratic Party, the black movement especially, the netroots, the labor movement. In addition, to a degree greater than any presidential campaign in memory, he has adopted movement organizing strategies. Significantly, these strategies are designed not just for winning this election, but for governing--that is, as a base for passing legislation. And in the participation of millions in contributing to the campaign by volunteering, by spreading the word, and in making hundreds of thousands of small-donor financial contributions, Obama may have created the closest thing to a "movement" presidential campaign as is possible.

Movements are made up of a series of more discrete campaigns. Where Obama/the Democratic control of Congress and the social movements intersect/interact is in those campaigns, such as to pass universal health care coverage.

It takes a combination of control of the federal government, especially a progressive president, and social movements to make significant change, as Bruce Ackerman among others has pointed out. The models are FDR in the 1930s and LBJ in the 1960s (as Loury points out).

The more important question is not whether Obama's campaign is a movement but whether and how the social movements will work with, and against, Obama to create progressive change. If Obama is elected, his presidency  will be a mass social and political education in the respective roles of government and social movements.  

 


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