McCain Incapable of Defining "Honor"

by: Paul Rosenberg

Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 13:19


"McCain's Prickly TIME Interview"

That's what Time itself called it.  (H/T Greg Sargent at TPM.) But I think they're being generous.  The piece starts with  a setup about McCain's famed freewheeling style, then notes how things have changed:

But with the press focused on Obama, McCain got attention only when he slipped up during one of his patented freewheeling encounters with reporters.

Hence, the switch to a traditional, hyper-controlling style.  The change may have been absolutely necessary, apparently, as Time's set-up concludes:

McCain at first seemed happy enough to do the interview. But his mood quickly soured.

The McCain on display in the 24-minute interview was prickly, at times abrasive, and determined not to stray off message. An excerpt:

What do you want voters to know coming out of the Republican Convention - about you, about your candidacy?
I'm prepared to be President of the United States, and I'll put my country first.

There's a theme that recurs in your books and your speeches, both about putting country first but also about honor. I wonder if you could define honor for us?
Read it in my books.

I've read your books.
No, I'm not going to define it.

But honor in politics?
I defined it in five books. Read my books.

Honor?  John McCain unwilling to define "honor"?  Unwilling or incapable?  Because it's hard to believe he's unwilling.  John McCain just loves to yammer on about honor.  It's just that this time he's not being asked to yammer on about it.  He's being asked to define it.  And he can't.  And it's no surprise, really.  Because I think that if Nixon had been asked this same question when he first came up with his catch-phrase, "Peace with honor", we might all have been spared 40 years of wretched rightwing dominance of our political discourse.

"Honor"?  What the hell were they talking about?  Someone should have asked that question a long, long time ago.

Paul Rosenberg :: McCain Incapable of Defining "Honor"
Time's interpretation is more generous, of course: he's just "prickly," and they have further excahnges that support this thesis.  For example, they next go on to ask about how his campaign has changed, become more traditional, and he obviously doesn't want to discuss it:

[Your] campaign today is more disciplined, more traditional, more aggressive. From your point of view, why the change?
I will do as much as we possibly can do to provide as much access to the press as possible.

But beyond the press, sir, just in terms of ...
I think we're running a fine campaign, and this is where we are.

Do you miss the old way of doing it?
I don't know what you're talking about.

Really? Come on, Senator.
I'll provide as much access as possible ...

I can understand him not wanting to discuss the demise of his trademarked "Straight Talk Express," and gettig prickly when asked to do so.  But "honor"?

Well, there's either two choices here.  One is that he really is prickly for the exact same reason: it reminds him of what he's abandoned, and it angers him to confront it.

But I think the more likely reason is that, like so many other things, he knows he'd just make a fool of himself, because he doesn't know what he's talking about.  And this time, it would actually be (a) reported, (b) noticed, and (c) repeated.  Endlessly.  By Leno, Letterman and everyone else.


Can you imagine the uproar if Obama refused to define "honor"?  But with McCain, apparently, trying to define it posed the greater peril.  Either that, or we have to question his judgement.


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Maybe struggling on a middle-class salary of $4.9 million per year is "honor" (4.00 / 2)
Or struggling to remember how many houses you own.

I Honor That Answer (0.00 / 0)
even though I might not agree with it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'll have you know that That Answer spent 5 1/2 years without a kitchen table (4.00 / 5)
But, of course, That Answer has always been reluctant to talk about that experience.

[ Parent ]
"Read it in my books. " (4.00 / 4)
Weren't those sorta ghostwritten?

Bingo! (4.00 / 2)
But not ghostread, apparently.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Maybe McCain was misquoted in his own book (4.00 / 3)
Charles Barkley once claimed that about a book where he was listed as the primary author (that he was being misquoted in his own book).

[ Parent ]
I Gotta Wonder (0.00 / 0)
did he ever claim he stole the ball from himself?

Not sure exactly how that would work.

But, then, that goes for miquoting himself in his own book, too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not Sorta (0.00 / 0)
The "second" writer is named on the cover.  The question is whether or not McCain has even read his own book.

[ Parent ]
Grandpa Just Needs a Nap! (0.00 / 0)
That was a SOFTBALL question that McCain should have hit out of the park. Example:

A: "Honor is serving your country and doing what's right even at personal cost, just like I did when I was a POW in Vietnam. Did you know I was a POW? No? Well I was! And I was held in a tiny prison cell for years and years. And they tortured me. But, I wouldn't talk! Nope! That's because I'm HONORABLE.

And that's why I should be president. Did you know I was a POW? Well I was! And Obama wasn't. And don't you forget it!"

Q: Thank you Senator McCain.

See how easy that was?  


[ Parent ]
"Peace with Honor" (4.00 / 3)
Defn:  When a Republican President ends a war.  

I'm not going to read the books (0.00 / 0)
But what do the books say?

John McCain won't insure children

[ Parent ]
How about, "humiliated"? (4.00 / 4)
Does Mr. McCain know the definition of what just happened to him?

Maybe he can read about it in a book.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


simple questions (4.00 / 4)
It's odd how McCain has slipped up recently on the simplest of questions. How many houses do you own... How do you define honor...

Maybe the press should start asking a whole slew of really silly stupid questions. What's the difference between Shia and Sunnis? Can you point out Afghanistan on a map? What does one plus one equal? Etc.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


What day is it? (4.00 / 2)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Honor (4.00 / 4)
I must admit, I'm not sure I could define "honor".  It's one of those good qualities that authoritarians love but never seems to quite make sense when you dive down deep.  The dictionary gives us this:

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions

I certainly like all those qualities!  

But I don't think that is what they mean by honor.  Or at least, that is but one small part.

That's because to an authoritarian, honor always has something to do with the hierarchy.  Honor means knowing your place (not that they would put it that way).  Honor means belief in country, the mission, God and your superiors.  Laying down your life for someone or some thing more important than you; that is honor.

Liberals rarely use the word honor despite our deep beliefs in honesty, fairness and integrity in one's beliefs and actions.  Perhaps we should start using the word more often and take (back?) the meaning.


If you had written about "honor" in 5 books (4.00 / 1)
I suspect you might have an easier time defining the word.  At least I can understand why a reporter from a news magazine might assume that you would have a definition handy.  The question was not intended to trip McCain, he stumbled over a soft ball question.

Why?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Authoritarians don't define stuff (4.00 / 3)
They just are.  Honor means "honor".

I'm not giving McCain a pass on this.  I'm saying it may be even worse than we realize.  

Being able to break down a word that you've used to define you life should be trivial, but for some it is impossible.  It requires analytical skills, the ability to see how the components work.  But if honor is an atomic unit, how do you define it?

My own statement of not being able to define it was obviously the starting point of a thought process, as by the end I did define it.  But my initial point had to do with how conservatives and authoritarians use the word, which is very foreign to me.


[ Parent ]
I think it is much simpler (0.00 / 0)
No matter how "authoritarians" and "conservatives" use the word, if they put it in a book and talk about it, they have de facto, defined it.

When asked about it later, the author of the aforementioned book (s) should, AT A BARE MINIMUM, be able to regurgitate some form of what they wrote (whether its BS, or not).

If that author cannot, or dare not, offer those definitions and simply points back to the book, which they presumably wrote, one must wonder why?

My answer (with no evidence to support it): McCain did not write those books. He has no idea how the word "honor" was defined in them. Rather than take a chance on being "caught" when he offered a different definition to TIME, he decided to try and finesse the issue and wave his hands around. Very poor choice, especially on such a word as "honor", seeing as it is basically his only selling point, i.e. his "honorable" service to country.

Thus, he was humiliated by his own hand and his false authorship. As poetic a justice as I've seen in quite a while.  

Oh, sure, he could try and pass it off as a "senior moment", but that won't really help him, will it?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
This Is An Excellent Point (4.00 / 1)
In fact, "honor" as a value, like a range of values that are tied to authoritarianism, is partly invoked as a means of preventing analysis.

"Their's not to question why, their's but to do or die."-- That's honor for you!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Offensive question? (4.00 / 1)
It might even be offensive to McCain be asked the question.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
As if asking the question questions his own honor.

When you aren't that differentiated, it all gets mixed up together.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
In the South (4.00 / 2)
"honor" is often associated with sticking up for "your kind"--your family, community, or race. I guess this would also fall under the authoritarian/conservative view of the word. Also, this definition places honor above rationality in that you don't need to think about why you would stick up with  "your kind." You just do it.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Is it a dogwhistle then? (0.00 / 0)
McCain is doing waaay better in the south, which isn't all that surprising for a Republican, but given how much conservative antipathy existed for him during the primaries, maybe this is part of what he's doing.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps (4.00 / 2)
but all the more reason the Dems should hit him hard by running some ads in the region saying McCain does not know the meaning of the word "honor."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Really (0.00 / 0)
What's he going to say to counter it?  "I knew what it meant, I just couldn't be bothered to give a civil answer."

Civility is also a big deal down South, and McCain's been none too civil of later, either.  I wonder how drawing attention to that would go over, especially in this context.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Absolutely (0.00 / 0)
It's identity politics, southern style. And don't forget that when it comes to race-based identity politics, "the south" extends beyond the typical notions of geography. After all, the KKK started in Indiana.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
The KKK didn't start in Indiana.  The revived 20th Century KKK, which was more anti-Catholic and anti-immigrant than anti-black (they were quite broadminded about who to hate, taking after unions as well, especially the IWW), started in Atlanta, but it had strong membership in Northern states as well because of its more diversified enemies list, as well as northern migration of blacks.  Indiana was just the most prominent example of the Midwest states that saw widespread Klan activity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Agree that it's not exact (0.00 / 0)
Some cite Polaski, TN as the birthplace. My son is currently majoring in history at Earlham College in Richmond, IN and his professors refer to southern IN as the birthplace.  

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Honor means (0.00 / 0)
Having standards for personal behavior that you do not fall below, no matter the provocation. Always doing your best, taking care of others under your command or protection.  Conducting an honorable campaign means not lying and sliming your opponent but treating him with respect.

McCain knows.  He crafted the persona very carefully.  He knew what he was doing.  he klnows what he has thrwn away, and he aknows in his heart of hearts that it may well not be enough.  He will then have to resign from the Senate.  My partner bets that Cindy will dump him if she doesn't get to be First Lady.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Dems Need To Make Hay From This (4.00 / 3)
Pull a Rove and fill the airwaves with this interview while noting that McCain's books are ghost-written.  At best, he'll come off looking like he's trying to sell his books, and at worst will look like he's dishonorable.  They need to jump on this and ride it hard.  Perhaps by asking questions like "Is it honorable to support President Bush 90% of the time? John McCain refuses to define honor yet he questions the honor of others."  

Really, this gaffe has the potential to be as big a deal as house-gate, if not more so.  Particularly if Obama pulls some contrast ads where he defines honor.  


I Agree (0.00 / 0)
The potential here is huge, and Time significantly downplayed it.  What next?  He can't define "duty"?  He can't define "country"?

Well, at least he can define "marriage," right?  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
what a surprise (0.00 / 0)
a first class prick giving a prickly interview, duh!!!

Also something worth noting (4.00 / 2)
Is this incredibly oddly written article, which is mostly about McCain's ghostwriter but contains this tidbit:

Two books that McCain has not read are the bestsellers written by Obama. Isn't he curious about his opponent? "Well, I've been watching DVDs of his debates," McCain replied, "and I pay attention to his speeches."

(The next sentence is probably one of the weirdest sentences I've ever seen in a mainstream press article:)

Does this combination of respect for Obama's campaign and apparent indifference to his books suggest another example of McCain's romantic fatalism?


<I>HUH?<I> (0.00 / 0)
Any idea WTF they're talking about?

"A fantasy is not even a wish, much less an act.  There is no such thing as a culpable or shameful fantasy."  -----Lady Sally McGee

[ Parent ]
McCain already like Reagan in 2nd term (0.00 / 0)
This is really pathetic, in the "pitiful" meaning of the word.
This increasingly looks like the poor jerk can't remember anymore what he said about an issue before, and so he flees into abrasive, elusive answers in order not to ridiculously contradict himself. No matter how wrong McCain has always been politically, that's sad. But even more reason not to let him become president. Who knows what rovian figure would pull the strings behind his back!

Word games? (0.00 / 0)
I find two things interesting about this.

1. He seems to regard the office of President as an office with much more power than it actually has, or should have, according to the constitution. (He's obviously talking about foreign policy of which most is in the hands of Congress and Senate rather than the President.)

2. It's also noteworthy that he says 'my country' rather than 'our country'.  


Prick (0.00 / 0)
Time's interpretation is more generous, of course: he's just "prickly"

"Prickly" is only one short step from being a prick, so perhaps Time was closer than you give them credit.


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