Palin's 17-year Old Daughter Is Pregnant Rght Now

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:23


This is kind of hard to believe, but John McCain has selected a Vice-President who has a pregnant, underage daughter:

"The 17-year-old daughter of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin is pregnant, Palin said Monday in an announcement intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child.

Bristol Palin, one of Alaska Gov. Palin's five children with her husband, Todd, is about five months pregnant and is going to keep the child and marry the father, the Palins said in a statement released by the campaign of Republican presidential candidate John McCain.

This is mind-blowing. Did they really vet Palin? Really? Is a pregnant teenager going to make Palin look like a good mother? Is it really going to make conservative arguments about sex education appear sound? And really, how well is this image going to play in general, especially with the older, married voter who are McCain's base? The list of bizarre things about Sarah Palin keeps getting longer. Over time, I still believe she will become a severe drag on McCain's candidacy.

P.S.: Who s like Britney now?

Chris Bowers :: Palin's 17-year Old Daughter Is Pregnant Rght Now

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Palin's 17-year Old Daughter Is Pregnant Rght Now | 223 comments
The fundie base will find a way to justify it (4.00 / 11)

 But the logic diagram that ensues will make Escher look like stick figures.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn
Mark my words: (0.00 / 0)
Sarah Palin is a stalking horse for Joe Lieberman.

McCain will choose Lieberman when Palin pulls out and claims she was the victim of a sexist attack from the left wing. McCain will get his bosom buddy as V.P. while successfully pandering to the christo-fascists. It's perfectly timed for a media surge in support of the McCain/Lieberman ticket.

Let the bombing begin.

[ Parent ]
Kind of doubt it (4.00 / 2)

Nobody likes Joe Lieberman outside the media. He's turned his back on Democrats, and Republicans don't trust him. There's no way the Republican Party whipsaws its fundie base by dumping Palin.

 They're in a pickle here. The best way out would be to replace Palin with another far-right wingnut, this one hopefully vetted. But then they look disorganized and inept.

 Palin stays. The fundies love her too much. And without fundies, the pugs have no ground game.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

[ Parent ]
I am also suspicios (0.00 / 0)
A new mother and soon-to-be new grandmother of an underaged mother has lots of room to maneuver out of the ticket. Kind of like a Harriet Meirs strategy. Make your first pick so unbelievably awful that the second pick seems rational by comparison.

I wouldn't bet on it but I wouldn't rule it out.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
McSame has too much of a deadly "sin": pride ...to admit that he was in (4.00 / 1)
any way at fault with this choice and he won't let her quit cause it highlights what a poor choice he made

That's my guess anyway

[ Parent ]
Beware the trivialization of the election (4.00 / 18)
I just wrote a diary about this here: http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

Basically, my view is that we better start worrying that this episode is going to end up as a vehicle for the media to divert us from the most important issues in the campaign.

excellent point (4.00 / 1)


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
Any guess about what the reaction would be if (4.00 / 7)
Obama's (hypothetical) 17 year-old daughter were to become pregnant?
Right-wing radio and blogs would be all "babymomma" all the time. (4.00 / 2)
I fervently hope our side is well above that level.

[ Parent ]
Well she's a Democrat, (4.00 / 15)
so that would make her a slut.

A pregnant Republican teeanger on the other hand, is just a poor unfortunate doing the best she can.

We all know how this works.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Please (0.00 / 0)
For the love of God, someone please buy the Palin family a baby name book.  Stop the madness!
[ Parent ]
Insane (4.00 / 2)
It may fire up the fundie base because she's keeping the baby (even though it shows the failure of their abstinence-only education), but it's going to alienate a whole hell of a lot of independents and older voters.

And if she withdraws, it's Eagleton time and the election will become a ridiculous blowout.

Unless... (0.00 / 0)
Unless he gets someone really good to take over that the base still likes... COndi maybe?    
[ Parent ]
More likely (4.00 / 1)
It raises the quesion how well her kids are doing with Mom having a full-time job.  Motherhood, as Demoinsesdem points out, is supposed to be a full-time job for a Christian woman.  She isn't supposed to put career before children and neglect their upbringing.  If a 17-year old daughter gets pregnant these days, it suggests some lack of proper sex education, some failure to discuss consequences, and in their view, some failure to convey what the moral course of action is.  Besides, hasn't the young man technically committed statutory rape?  The law varies from state to state, but some young men have been prosecuted.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
Depends on how old the father is if it's statutory rape (0.00 / 0)
if he's also underage, there's no problem.  Most states have laws legalizing sex within some age range, too, even if it's between a legal adult and a minor (so if a 17 year old and a 20 year old have sex, it's not statutory rape).  Don't know if this is the case in Alaska.
[ Parent ]
Alaska's age of consent is 16 (0.00 / 0)
So says a Sadly, No! commenter.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog
[ Parent ]
Thing is (4.00 / 3)
This actually doesn't answer the rumors. All they need to do is release a birth certificate.

And it would be good to have an explanation for why Palin flew back to Alaska after her water broke, drove past the Anchorage hospital to her small town to have a pre-mature, downs syndrome child.

or her medical records (4.00 / 3)
Has Biden released his medical records?

If Palin does the same, that would obviously indicate all of her pregnancies.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
How does it not answer the rumours? (4.00 / 1)
Sarah Palin's baby is four months old, isn't he?  Her five month pregnant teenager could not possibly be the mother.  End of story.

[ Parent ]
or... (4.00 / 4)
She's actually only three months pregnant.  Or in a month she'll quietly "lose" the baby.  If you want to fit this into the existing story/rumor about a pregnancy cover-up, you need not assume the new information is true.
[ Parent ]
You're trending into conspiracy territory there. (4.00 / 6)
And even if Palin's daughter were only 3 months pregnant, it would be extremely unlikely that she conceived a second baby a scant month after giving birth to a first.

Really, it's just a bad idea to pursue this story.  It does nothing but make the Palin's sympathetic victims regardless of what the truth is.  We don't need to become the monsters to defeat them.

[ Parent ]
but why talk about real issues (4.00 / 7)
when we can become part of the problem?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
True... (4.00 / 3)
Plus it is a LOT more believable that a 40 plus year old woman gives birth to a Down Syndrome baby than a 17 year old.  Yes I know it could happen but the chances are a LOT better for the 40 year old.
[ Parent ]
no (4.00 / 3)
No, my point is that if you believe Palin faked a pregnancy in order to cover-up her daughter's pregnancy, it's no stretch to believe that the extent of the current pregnancy is being fudged, or being faked entirely.  Therefore, if you believe the cover-up rumor, this new claim is not going to be convincing.
[ Parent ]
But that isn't consistent with the reasons were supposed to believe (0.00 / 0)
Palin would pretend she was giving birth in the first place.  She's supposed to be covering up for her daughter, for the girl's sake or to protect her own family values image, whichever.  Turning around and pretending the girl is now pregnant when she isn't doesn't make any sense in light of that.  If her daughter isn't pregnant, Palin gains more by simply playing the public martyr to vicious smears -- her daughter being pregnant now blows the whole thing, internet rumours and all, into the big time.  

Besides, despite the testimonials -- yes, it's physically possible -- it's still highly unlikely Bristol got pregnant for a second time only a month after giving birth.

[ Parent ]
You're kind of ruining this whole conspiricy theory (4.00 / 1)
by looking at it logically.  The fact that none of it has any bearing on any of the issues seems to be irrelevant to those who are fascinated by the soap-opera-like plot twists provided by it.

I really think we should all just totally ignore Sarah Palin.  The Repigs actually NEED something they can irrationally defend out of passionate resentment.  This is their standard operating mode.  They are used to it, it allows them to submerge their rational side (if any), and they get to keep fixing their addiction to cognitive dissonance.  Every negative comment about Palin fuels them.  Without the criticism, we are back to the previous situation, in which Obama is winning on all the issues and McCain only has crackpot accusations to fight back with. Instead, many of us have taken over the function of making crackpot accusations, distracting everybody from the issues, on which we are clearly winning. Let's give the Palin bullshit a rest.

[ Parent ]
Good point about the Republicans needing passionate resentment (0.00 / 0)
to get them riled for the fight.  If there's any one thread that has held the disparate coalitions of the Republican party together for lo these many years it's their devotion to the idea that they are all somehow being persecuted by the damn dirty hippies of the left.  We're feeding their beast with this Palin drek.

[ Parent ]
Not only do you troll-rate comments (0.00 / 0)
just because you happen to disagree with them, but you feel that you have to take the extra step of reinforcing that age-old winning Dem strategy of always taking the high moral road. Because we ALWAYS win on just the issues and character.

Nice there. Did you work for Kerry in '04?

Who's bullshitting who here?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
It happened in my husband's family: a close relative gave birth at 16 (4.00 / 1)
(very strong Cathoic family in the 70's) the parents made the 16 year old give the baby up for adoption after they sent her away for the birth

Within 6 weeks she was pregnant again with another child by the same boy.

Someone said : "you can't keep giving away their children, let them get married"... they are still married ( now 52 and 53) and have 4 other kids. To my knowledge they have never heard from the first child they "gave away"

I am withholding my thoughts on this matter because of this story from my husband's family

[ Parent ]
That's a tragic story. A good example of why women's personal (4.00 / 1)
choices need to be protected, even from well-intentioned (I hope) family.

It's still a rare occurence.  And your family member's circumstances were very different from Bristol Palin's.  If the worst of the rumours were true, Bristol was living every day with the both her child -- her disabled child, another layer of heartache to be processed -- and the lie.  Whole different kettle of fish, imo.

Isn't it simpler to believe that rumours about Bristol's actual pregnancy got twisted up with the public attention to her mother's pregnancy and morphed into an even more salacious rumour?  And it really is a lot more likely that the 44 year old gave birth to the Down syndrome child rather than the 17 year old, though, yes, it is again possible.

[ Parent ]
The reason why I am inclined to believe what you term a "conspiracy" is because (0.00 / 0)
Sarah Palin sounds exactly like the relatives of my husband: strict Catholic, went to Mass daily, and even more ironic the family was in the public eye as well. It does not sound far-fetched to me considering the traveling saga that involved the "birth" of the youngest Palin...there are too many questions here.

What I do know is that I wish Bristol Palin and her fiance the very best along with their child. As the 2 people in my husband's extended family can attest to: this situation can work with a lot of support.

Which is why I am in favor of sex education, choice, and birth control as part of the whole package when dealing with teens.  

[ Parent ]
I don't see why the reckless travel story is the hook people hang (0.00 / 0)
their belief in this rumour on, unless it's just that hard for people to believe Palin might really have been that callous about the risks to her unborn child.  I don't have a problem believing she's that kind of narcissist -- the current Republican leadership is full of them, Sarah Palin is just the distaff version.

I hope it works out for Bristol Palin and her soon to be little family, too.  It's a rough start, but it can still end well.

[ Parent ]
Reckless travel story = sending girls generations ago "away" to visit relatives (4.00 / 1)
the travel saga, and I speak as a former airline employee as well as a mother of 2, is beyond bizarre.... I am more than willing to concede that Sarah Palin is the mother of the youngest Palin.... I just want to watch her justify that reckless trip.

It was reckless in so many ways and it speaks directly to her judgment under pressure( pardon the pun)

She should be nowhere near the Oval Office with decision making skills like that

[ Parent ]
Yeah, I don't think it says good things about her decision making or (0.00 / 0)
her priorities.  Likely if we push that issue too hard, though, it'll get turned around on us as being liberal hypocrisy on working women and choice.  It's a minefield politically, I wouldn't want our candidates anywhere near it.  But it makes me really think Palin sucks as a person.  I mean, she's not some poor or working class woman faced with the choice of either working anyway or losing the job that suppports her family, it was a stupid political speech that she thought was so important, and who know why she absolutely needed to fly home.  Maybe she's that kind of control freak.  I guess she fits right in with the Bushies, but who needs a younger, prettier Cheney anywhere near the levers of power.

[ Parent ]
Umm (4.00 / 2)
didn't want to tread too far into sharing BUT a person can become pregnant within only a month or two of giving birth. I mean some people. Or so I've heard.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Biologically possible (0.00 / 0)
But if they went to all the effort of covering up the first one, I think they'd have tried to make sure it didn't happen again in a hurry.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog
[ Parent ]
Well but you're an intelligent person. (4.00 / 1)
Also you believe in birth control?

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Is Palin on the record actually opposing birth control? (0.00 / 0)
I know most of the conservative anti-abortion movement is, but it's pretty rare for a politician these days to actually make that stand.
[ Parent ]
Against teaching about birth control (0.00 / 0)
I don't know if she wants to overturn Griswold.
[ Parent ]
Well there's this (4.00 / 1)
http://politicalwire.com/archi...

"she oppose abortion in all cases and opposes the use of birth control pills and condoms even among married couples -"

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Wow. (4.00 / 1)
Now THAT'S something to use against her.  
[ Parent ]
Oh, I've got cousins born within a year of each other. (4.00 / 1)
Irish twins, people used to call it.  But it isn't common, nor is it comfortable (for the woman), and I find it difficult in the human sense to believe that a teenager dealing with her whole world falling in would feel any urge whatsoever under the circumstances.  It's possible, just incredibly unlikely.

[ Parent ]
Oh alright then -- me! (4.00 / 4)
Okay? I did it! I have Irish twins myself. So I understand how, even though it makes no sense whatsoever, these things do happen.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Congratulations on the double blessing. :-) (0.00 / 0)
Heheh, must have been a trip when you found out, though.

[ Parent ]
Since you asked ... (4.00 / 8)
I had reason to suspect what was going on, but could not bring myself to go to the drugstore to buy a pregnancy test, because I had lost my wedding ring doing dishes, and my husband was out of town. I simply could not go in there with a pre-schooler by the hand, a newborn in my arms and no wedding ring.

So I found out at a post-partum check up. They asked me some questions, and if I wanted a test and I said "yes." I called my husband from the lobby and gave him the news, saying "umm, you know they make some real cute mini vans these days." And god bless him he said "what are you saying? Oh my god -- that's great!"

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Hubby's definitely a keeper. n/t (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
I'm just more impressed ... (4.00 / 3)
... that women have sex -- the possibly impregnating kind -- that soon after giving birth.  Personally, I was far too sore for weeks after to contemplate such an act ... not to mention the sleep deprivation ...

Republicans can't fix our country; they're too busy saddlebacking.
[ Parent ]
Does it even matter? (4.00 / 4)
If we're going on a ratfucking expedition, let's do it on more solid grounds.

Don't ask, "Who is Trig Palin's mother?" Ask, "What kind of a mother is Sarah Palin?"

This is a difficult line of attack, and I'd much rather just send an info-dump to the Enquirer and leave well alone, but if we're taking this route then issues like the Texas flight puncture her image much more effectively.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Happy to cede the story to the Enquirer (4.00 / 9)
And apparently they already have an army in Alaska looking for dirt. They can keep the story alive in supermarket checkout lines without our help.

On the other hand, I think that highlighting Sarah Palin's opposition to sex education and birth control is a legitimate topic of discussion. She wants all our teenage daughters to be vulnerable to early pregnancies and shotgun weddings, not to mention the exploitation and STDs that often follow when you refuse to educate girls about sex.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead

[ Parent ]
If we're talking about her opposition to birth control... (4.00 / 3)
Then the word 'Bristol' should never pass our lips. Make them bring it up.

Because if we say it first, then the response is, "She's keeping the baby, and if it's good enough for her, it should be good enough for you."

That's a horrid and mendacious line of argument, it goes without saying, but it puts us on to riskier territory. Bristol Palin can raise a child at 17 - she's from a wealthy and loving family with experience of big families. Make it a more general issue and bring in poor women in deprived areas without good family networks. Don't let them paint Palin's kid as typical, because she evidently isn't.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Precisely. (4.00 / 4)
Because there is no good answer.

She is either the mother who recklessly endangered her unborn child by getting on an airplane after her water broke, or she is the mother who kept her word, and forced her daughter to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term, then lied about it.

To me, when she answered that she would force her daughter to bear a rapist's child, that was the most chilling part of all.

She is not a normal mother. She does not have the instincts and feelings of a normal mother.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Stop it (4.00 / 1)
You all just need to stop it.  This line of commentary is ridiculous.  There is quite enough to talk about with her lack of foreign policy experience, her far right positions on a wide range of issues and her lack of executive management experience.  This obsession with her pregnancies and her daughter's pregnancy is absurd.  And, I can't remember the last time we questioned what kind of father a Presidential candidate is or was, or for that matter where they were when their wife gave birth.  Enough.  If this is where things are going, you can bet that many women will be increasingly alienated from this campaign.
[ Parent ]
Women who know about her (4.00 / 1)
are already alienated. How much do you know about her extreme views?

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
reread (4.00 / 1)
my post.  I said- keep it focused on her extreme views and not her parenting.  The more so called progressives go on and on about what a terrible mother she must be, the less likely there will ever be a woman in this high office.  I for one DON'T want it to be Palin, but I also don't want women judged by their parenting.  
[ Parent ]
I disagree. (4.00 / 2)
I do judge people by their parenting. And I am willing to submit to such judgement myself. Actually, I don't believe any of us really has a choice in that matter, we will be judged on the basis of our children and by our children, too. Parenthood should be approached with fear and trembling.

For example, did you ever notice that the Clinton's daughter Chelsea, was an honor student, while the Bush girls were ... another story?

Judging people by their offspring would not have disqualified Hillary Clinton by a long shot.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
But if you start doing this, it opens an enormous ball of wax (0.00 / 0)
Because everyone's notion of a 'good parent' is different.  There are people that believe that ALL working mothers are bad parents, for example.  A national campiagn is a horrible way to look into the personal lives of a family.  All we can do is sit and conjecture regarding how things appear.  

Voting for someone is a very different thing than deciding whether someone in our personal lives is a good person.

[ Parent ]
But if the working mothers (0.00 / 0)
produce kids like Chelsea, then that line of argument is cut off. Meanwhile a stay-drunk-at-home (oops) I mean meanwhile Barbara Bush produced such winners as George and Jeb.

Which would you rather have as your offspring?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
This is still really problematic to me (0.00 / 0)
1) It puts children in play for political argumentation.  Let's ask Chelsea Clinton if she felt the media attention she received in the early '90s was fair and a positive experience in her life.  Even the world's biggest screw up of a teenager really doesn't deserve this.  And it ends up hounding even the outwardly good kids.

2) We don't really know anything about these people's situations.  While the adult politician might be running around saying reprehensible things to get elected, that doesn't necessarily mean that that is how they run their lives.  We really know almost zero about the Palins at home, and we know less than zero about Bristol Palin.  Are we ready to accept all of the 'fallen woman' bullshit just becasue it would be an indictment against her mother?  For all we know, she was using contraceptives, they failed, and she hurried an already planned marriage due to this.  given what we know about her mother's public politics, probably not, but we don't know anything about this 17 year old's private life at home.  And it's not a political issue, beyond what we can generalize from the circumstance.  

If evidence surfaces that she wanted an abortion, or didn't want to marry the guy, or something along those lines, then, by all means, we should rise up and use it against her mother.  Right now, however, this is a private family matter about which we really know almost nothing.  Palin's public, stated, persona is toxic enough that there is more than enough to attack her without having to force a scared teenager to go through the shitstorm that a national media circus would cause.

[ Parent ]
I'm with sulis. (4.00 / 1)
This whole line of attack is unbelievably tawdry and reading this thread makes me feel dirty, although I just got out of the shower.

Before Palin, we were at the point of making it clear that all of McCain's vaunted "experience" that he is so proud of doesn't make any of his recent positions look intelligent or sensible.  Instead, it's all about re-fighting the Vietnam war for him, using the very same tactics which failed for ten years to win it, while Obama's positions on foreign affairs issues are the ones everybody, even Bush, come to after events shake out.  McCain's experience is the experience of losing, and he just wants to go on recapitulating the same policies which have been proven not to work. Obama is SMART ENOUGH to learn from the collective experience even if he was not personally involved in the events which provide the lessons.

This is a winning narrative.  

Palin is just a series of disgusting distractions.  I don't care how much you "question her judgment".  She just doesn't matter.

[ Parent ]
the baby swapping rumor is beyond stupid (4.00 / 7)
I can't deal with that kind of garbage at Daily Kos. It is beyond far fetched. It has no place in reasonable discussion unless someone were to have concrete evidence to begin with. One is not a investigative sleuth because they do some new math and find a couple photos online that are barely suggestive of a conspiracy.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
The concrete evidence is this: (4.00 / 8)
http://www.adn.com/front/story...

In April Palin told the Anchorage Daily News that she got on a plane at eight months pregnant (highly dangerous, and forbidden by some airlines), and flew to Dallas for a conference. Her water broke at 4 in the morning. At this point, she should have gone to the hospital because birth is either immanent, or it should be immanent. Once the membranes are ruptured the baby has no protection from outside infection, and if you don't deliver on your own after a certain period of time, they will do a c-section. It's serious.

Instead, she went on to give the speech she had prepared, and flew home. This story makes no sense at all, and she has never given any reasonable explanation for her actions other than "we couldn't have a fish picker in the family."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
you've convinced me (4.00 / 3)
Palin is an idiot.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
She scares me to death. (4.00 / 4)
This woman does not belong in a position of authority. No matter what the real story turns out to be.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
This is a woman... (4.00 / 3)
after getting on an eight hour flight while she was in labor with her fifth child (according to her) who believes she should have control over women's bodies---that we, our daughters and all women should be forced to carry the fetus of a rapist or not use birth control because SHE and her fellow fundies believe birth control and abortion is wrong.

Oh, the irony.


[ Parent ]
I actually think a baby swap is exceedingly unlikely (0.00 / 0)
I was just pointing out that this new pregnancy does explain away past inconsistencies.
[ Parent ]
What baby swap? (0.00 / 0)
Where does a baby swap even enter the picture?

If Trigg is in fact Bristol's son, then all that it took was the governor telling the registrar to authorize a birth certificate with her own name listed as mother.

That's small potatoes for a woman who already abused her office to get her ex-brother-in-law fired, and put a known sexual harasser on the payroll.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Swap might be the wrong word (0.00 / 0)
I mean the rumor of the governor claiming Bristol's son as her own.
[ Parent ]
So you believe the story of (0.00 / 0)
getting on an airplane instead of going to the hospital after her water broke?

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
My understanding (0.00 / 0)
was that no one was denying that. Thats the story the Anchorage Daily News had back when the child was born. The question is why she did that. I don't have a good reason but traveling back to claim her grand child as her own isn't the only conceivable answer. Assuming no one is lying about the most recent pregnancy the chances that Bristol Palin 1. Gave birth to a child with down syndrome at age 16 and then 2. Immediately turned around and got pregnant again is just exceedingly unlikely. I'm talking one in a million.

And at this point I'm beginning to feel guilty about spending time on this. But my sense is that the story won't end here. The Enquirer will find something.

[ Parent ]
There is no good reason to do (0.00 / 0)
something like that.

If she really was pregnant, she put her unborn baby's life in grave danger. Everyone who has had a child knows this, they drill it into your head at the pre-natal visits. I don't know why you don't believe me about this but it's kind of frustrating. Maybe someday you will have kids yourself and then you'll get it.

Either she is lying (it wasn't her water that broke that made her go back to Alaska) or she is a psycho, disobeying doctor's orders (and lying about that, too, saying she consulted with her doctor before deciding to stay on in Texas) and endangering her baby's life for no good reason.

Neither one of these is a good prospect.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Um (0.00 / 0)
I don't know why you think I disagree with you especially... its my comment about this news not disproving the initial rumors which started this thread. You recommended the comment...

I agree things look very bad.

[ Parent ]
her critics in the evangelical world (4.00 / 10)
will cite this as proof that Sarah Palin chose poorly to sacrifice her family to her political career. She didn't teach her kids to respect the word of God, and now her 17-year-old became pregnant before marriage.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
God I hope you're right. (4.00 / 1)
What am I saying? I'm sure you are.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
truth is stranger then, you know (4.00 / 2)
i guess if mrs palin had taught her daughter birth control rather then the extreme view she has this might have been avoided, are they really going to get married, now that palin is the vp pick the prospective husband is looking more attractive by the minute, before now, during the last five months he must have not been such a catch, politics anyone, rw gop style.
is this the real father or another wingnut charade for politics sake.

How old is the father? n/t (4.00 / 3)

Yes, I'm wondering about that, too (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
The poor kid. (4.00 / 16)
I feel bad for the daughter. I can't imagine how hard this had gotta be for her.

It's bullshit that your sixteen-year-old getting pregnant is bad parenting; but putting your pregnant seventeen-year-old on a national stage is maybe not the wisest course.

I feel sorry for her just being born into (4.00 / 4)
an extremist family like that.

But wingnuts are within their rights to ruin the lives of their own children, we can only try to make sure they don't ruin the lives of ours.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
And make sure that they have enough information availible to them (4.00 / 3)
that they can perhaps make their own choices come high school or college
[ Parent ]
the judgment thing (4.00 / 4)
It says something about Sarah Palin's judgment. She knew all this would come out in the campaign, it had to. She knew what would happen to her daughter in the media circus. She knew what this would do to her family name.

10 to 1 odds she didn't tell the vetters about it until after she was picked for VP. Maybe this is supposed to be her daughter's punishment for living in sin.

[ Parent ]
Vetters? You Still Think There Were Vetters??? (4.00 / 8)
Just like there WMDs, I suppose.  No evidence for either one of them, actually.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
you have a point there (4.00 / 1)
no vetters just cheerleaders at the NRO.
[ Parent ]
This is Exactly Why You Need Vetters (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Per Rafa below: (0.00 / 0)
Earlier today, 9-1-08, Steve Schmidt, the McStrategist, told members of the press that Sen. McSame did know about Palin's daughter's pregnancy but considered it a family matter

Whether a liar or not is beside the point.  You've just led with your chin.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
See My Comment Elsewhere (0.00 / 0)
with the report that Republicans didn't bother to go through the archives of Palin's hometown paper.  If they didn't do that, they didn't vet her.  That's Vetting 101, and they didn't do it.

I was just being snarky with my comment above.  But as my other comment shows, even my snark is sourced.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
It ptobably IS bad parenting! (4.00 / 2)
Let's be serious: If your sixteen year old daughter becomes pregnant, this shows that maybe you didn't tell her enough about the life as an adult, especially the part about contraceptives. Accidents happen, ok, but most of the time the girls (and the boys, too) didn't know about condoms and stuff or thought such preventive measure are the work of the devil. Damn.
[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 3)
I feel very bad for Bristol Palin.  It has to be tough enough to be 17 and pregnant but then to have it all over the news, etc.  Very sad.

This is where Sarah Palin's judgement comes into question - if you know your 17 yo daughter is pregnant, why would you put your family through the rigures and scrutiny of a VP campaign?  As lots of people have found out, running for national office is a completely different game from local and state politics.  You are no longer dealing with the friendly hometown press and any problems will be discovered and exploited.

I get ambition but as a father I would never put my personal ambitions ahead of the needs of my daughter.  I suspect I am not alone in this thinking and this is why I think this is going to be a problem for Palin.

[ Parent ]
People need to run away from this. (4.00 / 9)
All this talk, first of Palin's baby and now of her daughters, is best left unsaid.  It is a monstrous loser for democrats to bring this up.  First off, it is none of our business, none.  Leave the kid alone.  Secondly, comments about it will just drive sympathy for Palin.

Leave it alone.

Completely agree (4.00 / 1)
We have to fight to change the subject.
[ Parent ]
the christers will love this (4.00 / 3)
quite contrary to bowers insinuation, the christers LOVE these kinds of stories. Sinner redeemed making the "right" choice. They love sinners who follow up by following their extreme right wing doctrine. Why? because their all a bunch of loser hypocrites with poor judgement to start and get themselves into trouble constantly. So here Palin and Palin's daughter will be even more beloved, for 1) keeping the baby, 2) getting married even though she got knocked up out of wedlock.

Dems make an issue of this at their own peril. What are Dems going to say? She could have avoided getting pregnant? They don't care. They love underage pregnancy - because they love watching the girl keep the baby and underscore that Liberals/Dems would just want to kill babies.

The only thing you can get Christers on is underage gay sex with boys. That's the only thing. Even adult gay male sex you can't string them up on, even when mixed with Crystal Meth. Unless its in an airport - in which case its too shady for forgiveness. But as long as the hypocrite in question comes back to the fold and repents and vows to get back on the path, then its a love fest.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
there's a lot of fundies who will think (4.00 / 1)
that this shows that Sarah is a bad mother (forget the fact that children have minds and hormones of their own).  If she can't control her children, how will she be able to govern?  Also, many will think that this is precisely why women with children should stay home rather than pursuing careers.  If she were really a good mom, Sarah would devote more time to her children (especially with a 4-month old special-needs child).  Sure, there will be a lot of people who try to cover for Sarah, but this will not play well with the base.
[ Parent ]
Again, The Issue ISN'T Sarah Palin--Or Her Daughter (4.00 / 10)
It's John McCain's judgment, integrity and temperament.

Whatever one thinks about the Palin's it's clear that McCain really didn't know anything about them.  And if he was so careless about his first "executive decision"?  Well, you do the math.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sure, but best approached another way (4.00 / 4)
I think you've amply demonstrated that there are plenty of profitable lines of attack on Sarah Palin. But is this one?

Firstly, it could easily blow up in our faces. If it looks like a witch-hunt, we're fucked. Secondly, it relies on very reactionary framing - an unmarried girl having sex isn't a terrible thing and this shouldn't be a scandal in an open-minded society.

McCain didn't vet. We know that. But we can make the attacks based on her links to Buchanan (and hopefully get AIPAC in on our side for once), on her lies about the Bridge to Nowhere and on her extreme social conservatism (and we can do that without mentioning her family, lest we make here appear as a compassionate conservative.)

If we have to ask about her family, ask about her flight back to Alaska when her waters broke. Ask if that showed she put family first. That's your attack.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
McCain apparently knew (0.00 / 0)
And he decided that having a pregnant daughter didn't disqualify Sarah Palin from being a VP candidate.

Put aside your views of John McCain in general.

What do you think this particular decision says about his judgment, integrity, and temperament?

[ Parent ]
IF He Knew (What He Says Now CAN'T Be Trusted)... (4.00 / 3)
Then the failure to disclose this before it was forced out shows yet more bad judgment on his part.

There is simply no way that McCain looks like a responsible leader out of all this.

He is a disaster not even waiting to happen.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
why? (4.00 / 1)
who cares Palin's daughter got pregnant? what does it have to do with being VP? Its a stretch at best to say this has something to do with McCain's judgement.

I think the only winning question of this is that it allows one to ask the question "Did McCain vet is VP pick?" again. and that's a good question to keep asking as it makes him sound out to lunch. Beyond that Palin's daughter's pregnancy being a secret has no bearing on McCain's decision making.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
LOTS Of People Care (4.00 / 1)
If you're asking what SHOULD be, then we're in perfect agreement.  But that's not the question.  The question is "what is?"

And the fact is, plenty of people care, which is plenty of reason to want to hush it up.  And that, in turn, increases the chance of blackmail, coercion, or just more plain old bad judgment.

It's the same as the Lewinski scandal.  It was never as simple as "that's between him and his wife."  Anything a politician wants to hide--for whatever reason--becomes a factor in their decisionmaking, and that alone is enough to make it a public matter.

We do not demand perfection of our leaders.  But we do demand transparency in their decisionmaking.  And we can't trust that we have that when their private lives provide leverage for unseen actors to potentially use.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
But some of that has to start with not freaking out over trivial stuff like this, ya? (0.00 / 0)
It's telling, given her extreme pro-life views, and there might be some interesting persepctive regarding how much choice Bristol Palin actually has in this situation.

but, in the end, this is a triviality compared to everything else, but all of Palin's other incompetencies are going to get swamped by this, the most trivial of all of her problems, in the press.  Just like Lewinksy completely derailed all political discourse for two years, because it involved penises and cigars and was exciting

[ Parent ]
Choice is not trivial. (4.00 / 2)
I realize it is a "women's" issue and therefore icky, but it means a lot to those of us whose lives are impacted by government policy in these matters.

It matters what kind of people are making these decisions, and Sarah Palin is not someone who needs to be within a hundred feet of real political power.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Of course choice is not trivial (0.00 / 0)
but what is trivial is the personal details going on within a family so long as laws are not being broken.  This line of OMG!  Her daughter's pregnant! Isn't a useful criticism, unless it's very specificially targeted to talk about choice.
[ Parent ]
Wait a second. They DIDN'T hush it up. (0.00 / 0)
So your argument in this comment makes no sense.


[ Parent ]
And you consider yourself enlightened? (4.00 / 3)
Paul, it's a mistake to make anything of this particular point at all -- even if this were the only point of attack you could think of.  And I do understand your point, it doesn't require repeating or clarification.

From what I've read about Palin's response to this supposed "scandal," I found it rather moving.  A statement of acceptance and tolerance.  She still doesn't get my vote, but she doesn't lose it on THIS point.

If Obama had had a pregnant unwed daughter, would that have been a disqualifier?  Or a mark of Democratic enlightenment?

Yes, you can make an intellectual argument that, given McCain's base, this shows deficiencies in his operation.  But you know the limitations of intellectual arguments.  In the broad strokes, what we have developing is the following:  Palin's unwed pregnant daughter is a black mark against McCain.  As you know, campaigns are run almost entirely in the broad strokes.

Fact is, the Republican base will not reject Palin over this.  This is actually a marvelous opportunity for the evangelicals to show that they are not the intolerant thugs that they are painted as.  And in truth, many really aren't.  The evangelicals are fragmenting around their Republicanism.  How sophisticated is it to rally them around a cheap shot from our side?

And now allow me a cheap shot.  Yes, I'm already racked with shame, as my Strangelove hand moves inexorably to the keyboard, no stop, aargh, too late!

Edwards, Edwards, Edwards, Edwards!

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Acceptance and tolerance??? (0.00 / 0)
You need to read more about Palin.

The "choice" Bristol is making is exactly the choice Palin wants to take away from the rest of us.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I have ... (0.00 / 0)
My point is that there are scads of shots to take at Palin and her vicious political agenda, her position on abortion perhaps highest among them.  My reference was strictly to her response to DaughterGate.  Did she have any choice in how to respond once the cat was out of the bag?  Probably not without coming out as a hateful mother.

Is anyone who gives the devil his (her?) due pro-devil?

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Not to mention that (0.00 / 0)
assuming that Bristol actually wanted an abortion, what do you think her future life experience would be like in that family?  Though I don't know these people, maybe Sarah would be open and accepting in Private, even though she has her horrible rhetoric.  But maybe that's even worse.
[ Parent ]
Jeeze Louise! (0.00 / 0)
This is not about my enlightenment.  It's not about me at all.  It's about political reality: anything politicians have reason to hide--rightly or wrongly--can be used against them.  I may think it's perfectly fine.  In fact, I generally do think teen-age sex is fine.  Pregnancy, not so much, which is why I find "abstinency-only" sex ed so reprehensible.

But none of that is the point.  The point is that Palin apparently felt the need to hide it, and so did McCain--unless he was totally ignorant.  And that's where the real focus should be--not on Palin or her daughter, but on McCain.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
There's reality and there's pseudo-reality (4.00 / 1)
You give it away with "I generally do think teen-age sex is fine.  Pregnancy, not so much."  Who are you to judge?  There are 24-year-olds whose pregnancy might not be so fine.  40-year olds.  Any age for any number of reasons.  You could defend the position, but then you are on the terrain of judging women.  Tread carefully, sir.

I'm also aware that there is a line of attack here against Palin.  But to restate, "As you know, campaigns are run almost entirely in the broad strokes."  How this will play if progressives try to turn this particular matter into a major line of attack is that what will come off in the broad strokes is an attack over an unwed pregnant teenager.  This is bad news for progressives and Obama.

And much more importantly (24-point type in bold, Futura Ultra font), it's bad news for unwed pregnant teenagers, it's bad for women, it's bad for us all !!!!!!!

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Bad for unwed mothers? (0.00 / 0)
If McCain/Palin come into power, the world will be a whole lot worse for unwed mothers.

Hell they'll probably bring back the work farms, contract them out to Blackwater, and sell the babies to good Christian families vetted by Dobson.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Who Am I? An Ex-Teenager, That's Who! (0.00 / 0)
You give it away with "I generally do think teen-age sex is fine.  Pregnancy, not so much."  Who are you to judge?

Teenagers should have the right to control their own sexuality, as well as the rest of their lives.  This is why I support teen-age sex generally. Most adult oppositon is, I believe, largely based on sexual jealousy and regret, ratinalized in the most absurd manner.

OTOH, teenagers getting pregnant, without the capacity to raise and care for their children themselves, much less control their adult destinies, is not a prescription for controlling their own lives.  Which is why it's generally not a good idea.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I sort of agree with you (0.00 / 0)
but this was also the argument used to purge gays and lesbians from the state department in the fifties.  There does have to be a discussion about what things should be normalized, and what things shouldn't be.  
[ Parent ]
Well yeah, it kind of is (0.00 / 0)
This is not about my enlightenment.  It's not about me at all.

You are the one saying that McCain's view that a pregnant daughter shouldn't disqualify a woman from a job shows a lack of integrity and judgment.

Do you really see that as a progressive position?  

[ Parent ]
No, I'm Saying That His Handling Of This By Continuing To Cover It Up (0.00 / 0)
shows a lack of judgment.

Particularly given the internal contradictions within his own base, and the fact that Palin is touted under the "pro-family"/"values voter" banner.

So many contradictions, so little time.  And McCain is blithely oblivious to all of them.

It's really simple, Jon: Live by stoning "harlots", die by stoning "harlots."

Not because I'm throwing stones--I'm not.  But I am saying that highlighting your own hypocrisy with most important decision you make while running for office does show a lack of judgment.

"Big time," as America's #2 war criminal would say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Not much (0.00 / 0)
It says he either didn't feel it was or should be an issue (which I agree with, in principle at least) or that he was willing to take a big electoral risk (which may point to a gambling temperament, but risk is not in of itself a bad thing.)

This line of argument is dangerous and tends to rely on unprogressive frames. Nobody should be ruled out from higher office because their child had a child out of wedlock. Making such an argument (and it would be suggested that you were making that argument) treats peoples offspring as though they were possessions.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
It's Not That She Was Having A Child Out Of Wedlock (4.00 / 2)
It's that it was being concealed.  

What's more, with the Troopergate scandal we see that this withholding of information is part of a pattern on Palin's part, that McCain is either ignorant of, a party to, or both.

The point here is that if this were an isolated incident, then I would agree with you--even to the point of covering it up.  I'd see that as a bad thing to do, but defensibly better than the alernatives.

However, it's not an isolated incident.  It is, apparently, simply part of how Palin operates--under pressure, at least.  And going from where she is now to the second most powerful position on the planet is bound to increase the pressure on her.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Given that's it's not an isolated incident ... (4.00 / 1)
... it's not a necessary point of attack even in the crassest terms.

Given the downside of this point of attack (see my previous reply), it's irresponsible.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Yes, By All Means (4.00 / 1)
Let's confine ourselves to only talking about things that no one outside the choir cares about.  That's how all the DLC consultants win all their campaigns.

Oh, wait...

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And for goddsakes (4.00 / 1)
let's don't talk about things regular Americans care about, in terms regular Americans use. Otherwise they might get the wrong idea about liberals.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
yes, this woman is very shady. (4.00 / 2)
I also think if you have a pattern of concealing the truth, then you deserve whatever conspiracy theories pop up around you.

vodamusic.com
[ Parent ]
She called a press conference to announce (0.00 / 0)
that her daughter is pregnant.  Only a real bonehead could cast that as concealing it.
[ Parent ]
I agree that this line is dangerous (0.00 / 0)
but I think an argument can made that any parent (father or mother) who would accept the VP position, knowing that his/her underage daughter (is she still in high school?  homeschooled?) was pregnant, especially in our current society, was NOT putting their child first.  

Knowing her daughter was 17 and pregnant, knowing how her daughter would be media fodder/gossip and judged across American, and acceptingg the VP position - that is harsh.  I understand putting duty before family, but I really feel for this girl.

Ultimately I agree though.  This is a surreal, farcical moment in American politics, let's not linger.  We need to get back to talking about issues that impact all Americans: the economy, the war, environment, reproductive rights, etc.

[ Parent ]
Don't allow Palin's evilness to evoke bad arguments (4.00 / 2)
Though you yourself tread lightly in saying "an argument can be made" rather than stating it more forthrightly.

A few points in passing:

(1)  Did you excoriate Edwards for running despite his wife's illness?

(2)  If you thought that your country really needed you on the ticket, given the state of the country, would you put your country first or your 17-year-old daughter?  (17 meets the U.S. army minimum age requirement.)  The fact that McCain is an utter hypocrite in spouting "country first" doesn't negate its relevance.

(3)  I too feel for this young woman.

In what is, as you state, a surreal, farcical moment in American politics, I think we need to bend over backwards not to add to the circus atmosphere.  I agree with your final paragraph completely.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
agree on (2) (0.00 / 0)
it is a complex and heart-wrenching scenario to pick between family and country.  It's not really an argument, more of an emotional response to her daughter's pain.  But not very helpful....and I am really getting sick of discussing Palin to tell you the truth.

But (1) doesn't really work for me.  Elizabeth Edwards is an adult with a lot of experience with politics and the media.  She was much more informed going into the decision, that she and her husband made together.  I just don't find it comparable.

[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 6)
It's becoming clearer and clearer that they picked her in a panic move and didn't fully think the selection through (or even at all).

I'm sorry, but would anyone in their right political mind choose a woman who is under investigation for abuse of power, and has an unmarried teenaged daughter in the middle of an unplanned pregnancy? Would anyone in their right political mind really believe they could package this woman as a regular white collar working class mom when she and her oil company connected hubby are wealthy enough to have three houses? As if no one would check?

Would anyone in their right mind choose a woman who has been governor for just one and a half years of a state with a population (670,000) less than that of Pinellas County, Florida (924,413, St. Petersburg for those who are wondering)? Would anyone in their right political mind choose a woman who just two year ago was mayor of a town that wasn't even one of the ten biggest in Alaska where the biggest event of the last decade has been the opening of a Wal Mart?

Would anyone in their right mind choose a woman who in 2000 supported Pat Buchanan's Reform ticket, which believed in withdrawing from the UN and forcing them to leave New York, and the abolishment of the Departments of Education and Energy? Would anyone in their right political mind choose a woman who used to be a member of the Alaska Independence Party, which believes Alaska should secede from the Union, and who just earlier this year sent them a video of support at their convention? Reactionary conservatives love to say, "America. Love it or leave it." Well Sarah Palin supports people who actually do, literally, want to leave it. What does that say about Sarah Palin?

McCain has picked someone who is not only unqualified to be Vice President, but whose political views are so far beyond the fringe of political discourse in this country today (like, ya know, secession!) that it's becoming very clear that she's dangerously unqualified.

His campaign made a rash, desperation political move at, dare I say, 3 am, after witnessing Obama's speech. They panicked. No, panic isn't strong enough. They freaked out and lost their damned minds. Are these the same people you want making life and death decisions in the Oval Office? Not on your life. God forbid if McCain were to be incapacitated and this unqualified, fringe lunatic Palin were to become president.

We've got all the evidence we need now. Attack. Attack and define this woman now and make her into a nice albatross for McCain to carry around for the rest of this campaign. Palin is the gift that can and should make this election into a landslide victory for Obama.

[ Parent ]
It's been said before (4.00 / 6)
But I'll point out again how similar this is to the Bush admin hiring all those recent colleges grads from the Heritage Foundation jobs board to put in charge of major rebuilding programs in Iraq. They looked only at the ideological credentials, competence be damned. There had been fundies pushing Palin for VP for some time, and at first blush she appeared to fit all the ideological criteria to shore up their right flank, plus she had two X chromosomes -- what more was needed? It's Bush reasoning all over again.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead
[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 2)
This is how McCain reacts under pressure.

Perfect.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I don't think it was a panic move. (4.00 / 2)
Hilzoy at Steve Benen's site compared it to Bush and the second Supreme Court pick.  he wanted to pick his old pal Lieberman (Bush wanted Alfredo Gonzales) but strategists (possibly including Rove) told him he couldn't.  So he went for a pick who was a poke in the eye to both his own strategy people and the Dems, someone who superfically (being a woman) was supposed to put the Dems off-guard and make it hard to attack her, and who wasn't thoroughly vetted.  Just a sort of impulsive pick that stuck it to the people who told him he couldn't have who he really wanted as much as to the Dems.  In the Miers case it backfired because she wasn't conservative enough.  Here conservative activists are apparently thrilled but party pros are aghast at the amateurism and cynicism, and the real targets, Hillary women and Chrsitian fundamentalist women, realize that it was a cynical pick that invalidates their core values.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
Miers also backfired because she was so ridiculously underqualified (0.00 / 0)
Which, if we're drawing parallels, shoudl be pointed out.
[ Parent ]
Just wondering (0.00 / 0)
why anytime someone does anything someone says is stupid, it's "panic" or "desperation."

There wasn't any cause McCain to "panic" when he was a couple points down from Obama before the RNC.

I don't think Palin was a stupid choice.  She's got a shot at getting the dissaffected Clinton vote, the conservative base, and brought a youthful element to the campaign.  I don't think anyone's going to get very much milage bashing anyone's vp.  I don't think that the judgment argument is going to go anywhere. Going after her family will just generate sympathy. I think this will be McCain's reverend Wright - the media and partisan will be shocked when it doesn't hurt him.  I think it was a mistake, because it leveled the playing field on the "not qualified" front.

Obama doesn't have a better resume than Palin, and he's running for President.  Don't suddenly pretend you care about qualifications.  No one does anymore.  Why should they?  Bush got in twice, and he wasn't only unqualified, he lacked the ability to learn the job.  The more experienced the candidate, the less likely he or she is to win in the current environment.

It was a bold move.  May not work, but it made the race interesting.

[ Parent ]
Bull (4.00 / 3)
You can make a very strong case that it was desperation and it should be self evident by now it was stupid.

Obama's lead had grown to 8 points in the Gallup tracking poll taking into account the Democratic Convention up through the night that Bill Clinton and Kerry spoke. It wasn't a two point lead, it was an 8 point lead, and Obama could've cracked 50% had he gotten the spotlight alone for his acceptance speech at Mile High. McCain had to do something big to steal headlines. The survival of his campaign was at stake. So he picked an unknown woman his people hadn't even vetted, and if that isn't knee jerk desperation, I don't know what is.

And as far as stupidity goes, how else would you characterize a campaign that didn't recognize huge red flags like an abuse of power investigation or an unwed teenager in the midst of an unplanned pregnancy? How else would you characterize picking someone who jeopardized the experience card that had been, up until that point, the one and only thing McCain had been keeping the polls close with? It was stupid. And, it's a gift that just keeps on giving. It's only been three days and there's already a lot of damning things that have come out about this woman. MSNBC just broke their hurricane coverage to report that Palin is lawyering up for her abuse of power investigation.

And Obama does have a better resume that Palin. By far. Don't buy the GOP's hype that he doesn't. Obama has eight years in the Illinois senate and two years in the United States senate, including serving on the Foreign Relations commitee.

Sarah Palin has 6 years as the mayor of a town of 5,700 and 2 years as governor of a state that doesn't even have the population of metropolitan Albuquerque, New Mexico.

There's no comparison there. No equivalency.

[ Parent ]
I'm so sick of blind partisans. (0.00 / 0)
Go out and get some fresh air.  Get some perspective.

Obama has a horribly thin resume.  This is an objective fact.  It's a major liability.  It doesn't mean that he will lose because of it.  It doesn't even mean he will be a bad President because of it. This isn't GOP hype.  By denying it, you lose all credibility. Yes, there is a "comparison" - they are both incredibly inexperienced to be running for President and Vice President, by any standard.

If you think that facing an eight point deficit after the convention is a cause for "desperation" you simply aren't dealing with historical reality.  Moreover, even if McCain were in a historically difficult postion doesn't mean he panicked.  

You say again and again how stupid this choice is.  Maybe it is, but the last person to make this judgment is someone who is completely in partisan denial about Obama's resume.

In two weeks, we can take a look at the polls, and decide whether the Palin pick was stupid.  Once we decide, on the basis of actual evidence, whether it was stupid, we could have a legitimate debate about whether the stupidity was based on panic.  But, like most partisans who trive off the echo chamber, you know the truth, instantly, and the truth is always exactly what you expect, exactly what reinforces your viewpoints.  I would think you'd die of the boredom of always knowing you're right about everything, and that the other side is stupid and dishonest in everything they do.

My guess is that McCain will do fine in the polls.  My sense is that VP picks don't really hurt the candidate much.  The question is usually whether the pick can satisfy some demographic, or insulate him from some criticism or make some symbolic statement.  He will shore up his base with Palin.  I doubt he'll pick up much female support, but he might have had some independents take a fresh look at him.  Let's revist this in two weeks and see if Palin is the last gasp of a desperate McCain campaign.  


[ Parent ]
Thank you, ecotect, for providing the voice of reason. (0.00 / 0)
You make the argument on which this whole issue turns, leaving aside all of the tawdry elements which can only invalidate them.  All the rest is dreck.
[ Parent ]
Disagree. (4.00 / 2)
The Palin formula for how to raise a family is exactly the program that they  will try to impose upon the American people should the Republicans win in November. The fact that this is a proven recipe for failure is a legitimate matter of discourse.

Do women own their own bodies or not? Does the government have the right to make the decision of when we become mothers, and under what conditions, for us?

Oalin has one answer, but regular Americans have another. And her answer does not work.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Using logical arguments over this issue won't work. (4.00 / 2)
Republicans thrive on pure emotion.  You can make any number of logical arguments over this, including failures of abstinence only sex education, opposition to birth control, lack of support for unmarried moms etc and you end up generating more sympathy AND VOTES for them, than it will convince people to support Obama.  

In the end, you are picking on a mom and her pregnant daughter, you cannot win.

[ Parent ]
I thrive on pure emotion, too. (4.00 / 2)
That's why I get this.

She is not a normal mother. A normal mother protects her child, and does not sacrifice her to the god of ideology by forcing her to bear a rapist's child.

A normal mother, faced with a child out of wedlock (and believe me, I know several) sucks it up and says, "you know what, this is embarrassing but we're going to take care of this baby and make things right." She doesn't tell outrageous lies and expect to get away with them. Normal mothers don't have the political power to get away with lies like that!

If you really think this is going to generate sympathy for Palin among normal women, you're mistaken.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Just Keep Repeating... It's About McCain's JUDGMENT! (4.00 / 9)
It's fair to take note of all this.  And you don't have to wallow--or even think about making a judgment about it.

Just point out that it's obvious McCain didn't know what he was getting into, and that's not the sort of reckless judgment we want in a leader.  Eight years of that sort of judgment is quite enough, thank you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Absolutely right! (4.00 / 4)
McCain does not take the office of the President seriously. If he can't even run a campaign seriously, what kind of damage will he do to this country as President?

At least George W. Bush could run a decent campaign, yet he still ran the country completely off the road. John McCain can't even run a campaign. Why trust him behind the wheel?

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue

[ Parent ]
We should be asking, (4.00 / 2)
with every cabinet pick, "Did you vet this one? Did you? Because remember that other one ..."

Until he gets so mad he calls us bad words, like with Cindy.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Absolutely: none of our business. (4.00 / 5)

We're prochoice, we believe in the right to privacy - let's demonstrate that and take the opportunity to point out that this is why they're important.

Hounding a pregnant 17 year old? Let's leave that to the other side (Michelle Malkin and her SCHIP family escapades) and to the National Enquirer.  Or do we really want to hear the Republicans remind us that Barack Obama's mother wasn't a heck of a lot older than Bristol Palin is now?

The less we say about this, the better. 

Let's talk about the fact that Sarah Palin thinks it's okay to fire people for no reason, let's talk about her positions on global warming, let's talk about John McCain picking a VP he doesn't even know at all. 

 



John McCain thinks we haven't spent enough time in Iraq
[ Parent ]
It is not hounding a 17 year old (4.00 / 2)
to ask her mother to explain her position on sex education for teenagers. Sarah Palin wants all teenagers to remain ignorant of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy. What is happening to Bristol is what she wants for your daughters as well. This is a legitimate policy issue that can be discussed without explicitly bringing Bristol into it and should be discussed with the woman who aspires to be vice president.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead
[ Parent ]
Emotion beats logic every time. (0.00 / 0)
You can make all the logical assertions over this issue you want, and they get two votes for every one we get.  You cannot win by rationalizing the political views of a mom affecting her pregnant teenage daughter.  
[ Parent ]
Exactly -- (4.00 / 1)
that's all that has to be done. She's done all the damage herself.

Just make her say her ideas out loud, they are appalling, and the more Americans hear about them the better.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I feel sorry as hell for that 17 yr. old kid. (4.00 / 6)
As ill-advised as I think it is, I hope she really wants to marry the father.

Gah, the hers or not discussions about Sarah Palin's Down's baby on the blogs were already making me feel sticky and dirty all over and now this?  I really hope people can keep their taste for blood in check.  Sarah Palin might be a ripe target, but there are too many innocents who are going to catch the collateral damage on this.

I sure don't think of much of Sarah Palin as a human being, though, accepting the VP nod under these circumstances.

My Thoughts Too (4.00 / 3)
I have an infant daughter right now but god forbid she were to become pregnant as a teenager, the last thing I would do is put my career ahead of her needs.  This is what really bothers me about this whole thing.  It has got to be very tough to be 17 yo and pregnant and the next thing you know it is plastered all over the news and the Internets.  I feel very sad for Bristol Palin today.  
[ Parent ]
Jesus F. Christ !!! (0.00 / 0)
The kid has a father!  He's the care-giver.

Next thing you know we'll be calling for Fantasia to be stripped of her American Idol crown.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
I don't care who has a kid "out of wedlock". I don't even care who (0.00 / 0)
takes care of Sarah Palin's kids beyond the family values, Christianist hypocrisy of it all.  I just find it really disturbing that Palin is willing to subject her family to the harsh spotlight of a political campaign at this time.

And lest I be further misunderstood, no, I don't think unwed mothers should be hidden away in shame, but that wouldn't be terribly inconsistent with the views held by a lot of the voters McCain was trying to appeal to with this VP pick.  The firestorm was inevitable even setting aside the internet rumours.  It just must really suck to be Bristol Palin right now and I think a decent person and parent would have avoided subjecting their child to this mess.

[ Parent ]
Sex ed oops... (4.00 / 2)
So much for all those great abstinence-only talks Palin had with her daughter.  As a member of Feminists for Life, I guess she couldn't support contraceptives because that constitutes abortion....right?  
Abstinence only is a rigged game. (4.00 / 15)
I know something about this, growing up when and where I did.

On the first level, it's a lie because they openly tell kids contraception doesn't work. So they don't use it, I mean, why bother?

On a deeper level it's more sinister. The subtext of "abstinence only" is that premarital sex is a sin. Now it's one thing to sin, but it's even worse to shirk your punishment, right? If God is going to get you, then you only make things worse by trying to run (kind of like Daddy when he comes with the belt.)

Therefore, to use contraception is wrong, because you're trying to get out of the punishment you deserve. "Abstinence only" kids "slip up" and have sex (often getting drunk first, as an additional layer of psychic protection), then don't use contraception because, by exposing themselves to the risks of pregnancy and disease, they are showing the proper contrition for their sin. They are demonstrateing to God or whoever that, having done the crime they are willing to do the time.

It's fucked up.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
This is substantive (0.00 / 0)
so I uprated it.

Much of the rest of the commentary here is not.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Ab-only UNTIL marriage (0.00 / 0)
It's fucked up is right.  I should've qualified ab-only because it's really "abstinence-only until marriage" federal funding that Palin supports.  You know, these programs that have received millions upon millions of dollars points:
THE FEDERAL DEFINITION OF ABSTINENCE-ONLY EDUCATION

An eligible abstinence education program is one that:

A) has as its exclusive purpose, teaching the social, psychological, and health gains to be realized by abstaining from sexual activity;

B) teaches abstinence from sexual activity outside marriage as the expected standard for all school-age children;

C) teaches that abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems;

D) teaches that a mutually faithful monogamous relationship in the context of marriage is the expected standard of human sexual activity;

E) teaches that sexual activity outside the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects;

F) teaches that bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to have harmful consequences for the child, the child's parents, and society;

G) teaches young people how to reject sexual advances and how alcohol and drug use increase vulnerability to sexual advances; and

H) teaches the importance of attaining self-sufficiency before engaging in sexual activity.

Source: U.S. Social Security Act, §510(b)(2).

------
I just have to repeat that it's fucked up.

[ Parent ]
Also, not using birth control evades responsibility (4.00 / 1)
Some young women don;t wantto0 takw responsibility for having sex.  It's easoer to think that it "just happens" because they are drunk, the boy wouldn't take no for an answer, they were talked into it. etc.  To make an appointment at Planned Parenthood (which isn't available in large parts of the country), much less ask your mother to help you get contraceptives, means accepting responsibility for something you have been taught is wrong, or at least suspect.  The young women say that getting birth control is "too calculating" but they mean they don't really want to take responsibility.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
I should ignore this but the temptation is too great (4.00 / 2)
I can't resist... teh irony is delish...



"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers

Vetted? (4.00 / 5)
So,the Reuters story I saw says that the McCain camp knew of this at the time when they picked her.  Really?  They picked her despite this, then withheld it from all the press packets on Palin's bio?  Is that acceptable?  Is that believable?  I simply can not believe they would pick her, keep it secret, then only divulge when liberal bloggers are hot on their trail making scurrilous charges of baby swapping.  Would they have ever talked about this if the bloggers hadn't ginned it up?  I can not believe that they knew.  No freakin' way did they know.  Totally unvetted.  What a disgrace.
doesn't pass the laugh test (4.00 / 3)
but if true, McCain's campaign is a lot stupider than than anybody thought.
[ Parent ]
Now that's an angle (4.00 / 3)
Takes the focus off Palin and puts it on McCain, makes him look reckless, careless of the truth and generally mad and forces a humiliating climbdown.

Approaching this head on means wading into very stormy waters. Going at it from an angle like this avoids the risk and puts McCain at risk of becoming a joke candidate.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
There WAS No Vetting Process (4.00 / 2)
At least none worthy of the name.  From Sam Stein at HuffPo, "McCain Camp Didn't Search Palin's Hometown Paper Archives":

The McCain campaign has gone to great lengths to present the selection of Sarah Palin as one made after a careful, meticulous vetting process. But evidence continues to suggest that the Arizona Republican made his VP choice with surprising haste.

On Saturday, a Democrat tasked with opposition research contacted the Huffington Post with this piece of information: as of this weekend, the McCain campaign had not gone through old newspaper articles from the Valley Frontiersman, Palin's hometown newspaper.

How does he know? The paper's (massive) archives are not online. And when he went to research past content, he was told he was the first to inquire.

"No one else had requested access before," said the source. "It's unbelievable. We were the only people to do that, which means the McCain camp didn't."

The Frontiersman did not immediately confirm the revelation. And there is no indication from the Democratic source that anything nefarious or problematic will be found in the archives. But officials with the paper did not recall inquiries by the McCain campaign.

"I cannot confirm that information at this time," said publisher Kari Sleight. "I am not aware of the McCain campaign researching our archives, but archive requests do not usually go through me."

If true, the failure of the Arizona Republican to access the newspaper clippings becomes another in a growing list of revelations that calls into question just how and why he made his decision to choose Palin. A rudimentary clip search, such as this, is presidential politics 101 as campaigns not only look for the majority of background information on any high-level appointee, but also try to prepare themselves from future attacks.

The Palin pick was pure McCain--all sizzle, no steak.  And it's going to be the stake through the heart of his campaign.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
It's worse than that (4.00 / 1)
They failed to send anyone to Alaska to talk to folks up there.  They not only didn't talk to the Commissioner of Public Safety she fired, they didn't talk to ANYONE up there, including the Republican state leadership.  It is unf'ingbelievable.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
Brings a whole new meaning to... (3.00 / 4)
..."The Palin Bump".
Check out Palin's religion (4.00 / 1)
Per her bio, Palin is a member of an Assembly of God church.   This is a very extreme fundamental denomination.   They believe in speaking in tongues and they have many other bizarre beliefs.    They also have a racist history.  

Normally, I think that one's religion is not relevant in politics.   However, in this case it is clear that her extreme religious beliefs affect her positions on key issues.  

In due time this will all come to the surface.  


JUST LEAVE THIS SHIT ALONE (4.00 / 2)
They're already trying to gin up a backlash.  And it may work.  Just stop it and don't give them anything to attack back with.  Nothing anybody says here will make this blow up or not blow up.

Just STFU and let this thing play out.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

When Sarah Palin (0.00 / 0)
says I have the right to my own body, I'll leave her alone.

Until then, no.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
While I am in full sympathy with your criticism (4.00 / 1)
of Palin's anti-choice views, at the moment, I am more concerned with the backlash they are trying to create with this.  The right wing still has the power to make crap stick in the mainstream media and WE DON'T.

It may not work, Palin may be dumped, but this thing is like Gustav - no one knows where it is heading.  Loose lips sink ships - and your righteous wrath at Palin will lose nothing if it is kept within you for a day or two.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
We should not be afraid (0.00 / 0)
to talk about sex and values, because our values are the good ones. Ours are the ones that ensure people get to live dignified lives. Ours are the ones that will prevail.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
The right to privacy (4.00 / 3)
Apparently it's only a progressive value in the abstract.

John McCain
GET A CLUE!!! (3.20 / 5)
This is about McCain's JUDGMENT, you doofus!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Given McCain's poor judgement on other issues (4.00 / 6)
isn't it possible to make that same point without dragging a 17-year old through the mud?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
Sarah Palin's Monstrous Decision (4.00 / 2)
dragging a 17-year old through the mud?

What do you think about a mother who reveals her 17 year-old daughter's pregnancy to the entire world in order to rebut charges her own pregnancy was faked?

Wrap your arms around that one! How else might Sarah Palin have proved that the child is hers without involving her 17 year-old?

She could have released a statement denying the charges.

She could have released photos of herself showing her pregnant at the relevant time.

Even better, she could have released her own medical records or she could have permitted her delivery doctor to have a press conference and describe the birth.

Instead she threw out her own daughter to the wolves.

[ Parent ]
Who Exactly Is Dragging Palin's Daughter Through The Mud? (4.00 / 1)
I haven't even mentioned her by name.  And I've repeatedly said it's not about her.

Why is it necessary?

(1) Because it's what's caught the media's attention (gee, I wonder why!) so it's what we use to connect to the larger theme.  They're going to talk about it anyway, we can't change that.  But we can help shift the focus to McCain and his lack of judgment as being what the story is really all about.

(2) Because it helps to establish what's known as a "pattern and practice"--or perhaps more appropriately, given the criminal nature of the GOP of late, "modus operandi".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah, the right wing noise machine and the M$M (0.00 / 0)
are the perfect people to highlight those details.

I'm taking my cues from Obama on this one, Paul. Thanks.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Not polite, paul n/t (0.00 / 0)


War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008
[ Parent ]
The Casual Rightwing Trashing Of Progressives Is Not Polite, Either, IMHO (4.00 / 1)
But what do I know?  I've just been fighting them since I was 9 or 10, back before Kennedy was elected.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Bristol Palin's privacy should be respected (4.00 / 2)
But Sarah Palin should be asked to own the natural results of her policy preferences, in particular the preference for keeping teenagers ignorant about sexuality and birth control. Bristol is lucky, since her family is supportive and will help her. Many girls in her situation get beaten and/or turned out of the house. "Abstinence only" education and withholding information about how to avoid pregnancy lead directly to these results.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead
[ Parent ]
I hate arguments like this (4.00 / 3)
This doesn't open the door to questions about family planning and sex ed any more than a young Chelsea Clinton going to private school in DC opens up the door to argments about school vouchers. Government policy is about the aggregate effects on a community, not a series of personal anecdotes.

If people want to talk about the failures of abstenicence-only let them make the argument on the merits. Trying to hitch your argument to every breaking story where a teenager is pregnant is cynical, lazy and ultimately counterproductive. People don't see any good intentions in the effort and pin the negative effect on the person who is using an individual 17 year old girl's life as a "teaching moment" on a national stage. Fuck teaching moments. How about discretion? How about political self-discipline?

As for the politics of an individual teen pregnancy, WHAT politics?  I had a niece who was pregnant young and if anybody started lecturing me about the politics of her choice I would have punched them in the goddamn face. It's hard to win the votes of people who want to punch you.

John McCain

[ Parent ]
"Abstinence only" (4.00 / 1)
is more appropriately called "marry for sex."

They teach their kids (and ours too, when they get a chance) that they must marry if they want to have sex, leading them to make one of the most important decisions of their lives with a part of their body which is neither the heart nor the head.

Unsurprisingly, they often marry the wrong people and too young, with predictable consequences.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Privacy? (4.00 / 3)
The McCain for President campaign issued a PRESS RELEASE announcing Bristol Palin's pregnancy.

[ Parent ]
Palin's defense - MY DAUGHTER'S PREGNANT! (0.00 / 0)
Exactly, Sarah Palin and company weren't forced to announce Bristol's pregnancy. They decided on their own that it was best for Bristol if the entire American media knew right now that she was pregnant.
[ Parent ]
They're already using (0.00 / 0)
the "Bloggers Made Me Do It" defense. Big push on now to say that the only reason they HAD to announce Bristol's pregnancy was that those evil mean bloggers were all talking about the baby swap rumors (which apparently had been floating through Alaskan Repub circles for some time).

The thing is, in time a pregnancy becomes obvious, and Alaska's a small state. There was no way Bristol's pregnancy would remain a secret. If this did come to light during Palin's vetting, then there had to have been a strategy for releasing the information in the most advantageous way. The announcement may have been hastened by the baby swap rumors, but it was something they supposedly had already decided they could deal with.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead

[ Parent ]
Privacy? PRIVACY? (0.00 / 0)
If Sarah Palin was so concerned about her and her family's privacy, she would have declined to be McCain's VP. You're seriously yelling at clouds here. Loss of privacy goes with the territory and EVERYBODY knows it. No one's targeting her daughter. It's Palin and more importantly McCain whose judgement is being questioned here. For the former it's the poor judgement to believe in and preach idiotic, irresponsible and I think hypocritical crap like abstinence only (without a backstop, if you know what I mean). For the latter it's about picking someone with so little experience and so many personal and professional issues.

We're supposed to make it easier for a massively unqualified person to be one step away from being president so as to respect her alleged privacy? Does that mean that Cheney's adventures in hunting and Bush's DUI arrests were off-limits too?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
So what? (0.00 / 0)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
Choice (4.00 / 1)
It is interesting to note that in both the discussion of Gov. Palin's Down's Syndrome baby and her daughter's pregnancy, conservatives and others have praised their "choice" or "decision" to have the babies.  Ironic when the Republican objective is to eliminate that choice for women.
They have a choice because WE (0.00 / 0)
gave it to them. In return they wish to take ours away.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Palin is approaching Astronaut Lady territory on the (4.00 / 1)
national laughingstock scale.
I was saying yesterday (0.00 / 0)
she would be gone by Tuesday. But this is ridiculous.

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
I remember that (0.00 / 0)
and I remember thinking (but not replying), No way -- it hasn't gotten that bad and the Fundies love her.

I'm starting to agree -- this could happen. McCain has hit an Eagleton.

[ Parent ]
Nah (4.00 / 2)
Where George McGovern and Thomas Eagleton were willing to respond to the "conditions on the ground," the Bush/McCain team will stand by Sarah Palin-- even if it means a convention floor fight-- until November. Remember, admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness, and you have to stay the course.

Sarah Palin will be on the ballot on November 4th, even if John McCain regrets his decision by September 4th.

[ Parent ]
Please please please. (0.00 / 0)
I promise God I will never ask for anything again if only Sarah Palin will stay on the ballot until November!

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Seems like it (4.00 / 2)
The Eagleton pick was rushed, and they just took his word that he had no skeletons.  He hadn't told them he had been trreated for depression and had shock therapy, in 1972 a much less acceptable issue.  You can't take people's word about their own life when they are going to be appointed to high office.  That's why vetting is done.  The also-rans must be furious.  This will blow up or be a running sore.  Either way, Paul is right.  It is about McCain's impulisiveness, lack of judgment and gambler's nature, none of which belongs in the WH.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
Heh. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
I lived in Alaska (4.00 / 1)
for about 6 months way back when and one of my takeaways was that many of the locals were largely crazy. Sometimes in good ways (quirky like Northern Exposure) and sometimes in bad ways (misanthropic, oddball beliefs, etc.)

She's turning out to be a real oner, our Sarah Palin.

Look, it's about two things... (4.00 / 3)
1. It's further sign that John McCain might not have gone over this nomination carefully.

2. How strange Sarah Palin opening up her teenage daughter to such intense public scrutiny is. This kinda thing is hard enough to deal with in privacy of one's own family. Democrats don't really have to respond; the line in Barack's speech about curtailing potentially "unwanted pregnancies" is already public record. On the other hand, as reported on Open Left just this morning, the pro-family axis of the Republican base is gonna have a field day debating whether Palin is indeed a good Mom.  

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams

I would say that (4.00 / 1)
the Meme of Favorability should look something like this:

"McCain chose an unvetted nutcase in a political panic"

Mind you, that doesn't mean I want Obama could go on TV and say that but rather that if this is what gets coughed up in the American Pop Culture Hairball Generator (APCHG), then we're in good shape.

[ Parent ]
I just want everyone to sing along... (0.00 / 0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
first of all... (0.00 / 0)
There's a lot of disgust to be passed around at this whole situation.

First--and absolutely foremost--I cannot believe any mother would do this to their child.  How can you accept a VP nomination knowing that your 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, knowing that she would be dragged into the election, knowing that you are sacrificing your child's well-being and happiness on the altar of your political career?  I don't even have a kid, but whatever maternal impulse I have absolutely reels at this situation.  Even worse, though, is my revulsion at the hypocrisy of it all.

Second--I am disgusted that "liberal bloggers" are responsible the whole baby-switching tinfoil bullshit.  Really, guys, there are more than enough people who question liberal sanity without you giving them credible fodder for it.  I spent the entire holiday weekend listening to my huge (Ohio resident) family tell me that Obama is a Muslim, the Antichrist, and a communist.  With straight faces.  Even now.  Please avoid stooping to this level, for the love of GOD.  Please.

Third--why are people drooling over the fact that Palin didn't abort her Down's child, as if that's some sort of indicator of strong family values?  Children with Down's can have severe, life-threatening problems, but many of them live full life expectancies with mild mental impairment and vision and hearing problems as the only signs of their condition.  It's not like she chose to carry to term a kid who was destined to die within minutes of birth.  It almost seems like the media expects the left to advocate aborting any imperfect fetus, and that's ridiculous beyond measure.

You owe it to yourself to listen to This American Life's fantastic and common-sense explanation of the economic crisis.

Have you been following any of this conversation at all? (2.67 / 3)


Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
Yes.  Care to be more specific in your criticism, or has this entire post turned into a snarkfest?

You owe it to yourself to listen to This American Life's fantastic and common-sense explanation of the economic crisis.
[ Parent ]
Thank you (4.00 / 2)
For painting the entire "liberal blogger" community with such a broad brush. Was that your assigned job for the day, or did you come up with it all by yourself?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
Um, no. (0.00 / 0)
I'm upset that "liberal bloggers" at large are being blamed by the media for the actions of a few.  It's not me that's painting anything with any sort of brush, but the media, who is using a few crazies to lump us all together.  Have you even seen what daily kos is going through because of this?

You owe it to yourself to listen to This American Life's fantastic and common-sense explanation of the economic crisis.
[ Parent ]
Calling all history buffs... (4.00 / 1)
Question: Has there ever been an example of the presidential nominee scrapping one running mate for another? If the base really throws a hissy-fit over this, is that a possibility for McCain? It would certainly keep the media circus going...  

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
Tom Eagleton in 1972 (4.00 / 1)
McGovern chose him and it turned out he had had eltroshock therapy for depression.  He was replaced with Sargeant Shriver.
[ Parent ]
A scenario... (0.00 / 0)
Suppose McCain dumps Palin, says "f--- you!" to the base (because it's now completely out in the open that they can't be trusted), and selects Sen. Joe Lieberman? Wouldn't he be the "maverick" again? And isn't it imaginable that quite a few GOP-ers would hold their noses and think it was justified? The rumor-mill had it that Sen. Lindsey Graham was actually pushing for it. Personally, a McCain-Lieberman ticket was always the possibility that made me the most apprehensive.  

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
Momma Don't Preach! (0.00 / 0)
I agree with those who say that Palin's daughter's pregnancy is none of our business. Earlier today, 9-1-08, Steve Schmidt, the McStrategist, told members of the press that Sen. McSame did know about Palin's daughter's pregnancy but considered it a family matter - I agree.

I am curious, however, how do the Palin's, who because of their political-faith profess being morally superior to non-born-again Americans, are going to:

1) convince other ultra-religious voters that they are qualified to be the moral standard-bearers of the conservative-right;

2) that this is not another case of a child being forced by their intolerant parents to accept an unwanted (and most likely, unintended) pregnancy;

3) since Palin believes that every American woman's reproductive decision is a matter of public morality (and thus the government's responsibility to police) then isn't her daughter's out-of-wedlock sexual behavior par for the course?

Nevertheless, I do agree that, Bristol Palin's pregnancy is none of our business! And for that matter, neither is anybody else's pregnancy and what they might ultimately decide to do out it.

I guess that people who live in igloos should not go around setting their neighbors barns on fire!

Confused About This Story. (0.00 / 0)

I'm still confused here. Did McCain really know about this controversy or not? These reporters really need to get to the bottom of this, but probably won't even make the effort. Perhaps the bloggers can find out. I can't believe McCain would have gone ahead with this choice had he known all of this. It's going to completely distract from his campaign message. Will someone out there nail down for me the real story of how Palin was selected? Something doesn't add up with regard to the story of McCain's vetting of this candidate.
Surely, if McCain knew, he would have picked someone else, no?
Sarah Palin was chosen (0.00 / 0)
by the religious right:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com...

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
In fact, (0.00 / 0)
putting two and two together (between desmoinesdem's info and digby's) this looks worse and worse all the time.

If Palin was chosen to engage the fundamentalist turn-out machine, but then that machine is balking at the idea of supporting a career woman who turned her back on hearth and home, and now said career woman is having trouble with a wayward daughter ...

I don't see how they are going to get out of this one.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
The fact that the whole Palin (0.00 / 0)
complex of stories distracts from John McCrazy's campaign message can only be an advantage to him, given that his whole campaign is nothing but a pack of lies.
[ Parent ]
Do we respect our nominee or don't we> (4.00 / 5)
From Shakesville:

"I have heard some of the news on this and so let me be as clear as possible. I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics, it has no relevance to governor Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18. And how family deals with issues and teenage children that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that is off limits."-Democratic nominee Barack Obama, on GOP veep nominee Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy.

Can we all grow up now?

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

Link to the above: (0.00 / 0)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/polit...

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Off course he's going to say that, duh! (4.00 / 2)
You think he's stupid? And I mean that in both ways, that he's not so dumb as to get into this himself, and neither so dumb as to not realize that this can help him, if handled properly.

Palin is a fundie Christianist who preaches abstinence, self-discipline and godliness, and the childish general ideology that if you believe in something strongly enough, whether or not you actually practice it doesn't matter. Simply believing in this infantile crap is a strike against her. Not living up to it is another.

She's not directly responsible for her daughter's actions. But this does show how silly and hypocritical these abstinence only nutjobs are. At best, they're well-meaning but incredibly naive fools who don't live in the real world. At worst, they're hypocrites. I'm leaning towards the former with Palin. But that automatically disqualifies her from being VP.

I wonder how this translates into her foreign policy if McCain's out of the picture. She sends her Secretary of State to negotiate a difficult peace deal with nothing more than advice to be careful and not have sex with the other side?

Sarah needs to stay in Alaska and take care of business.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
"You think he's stupid?" (4.00 / 1)
No, I don't.  But when you say things like, "She sends her Secretary of State to negotiate a difficult peace deal with nothing more than advice to be careful and not have sex with the other side?" I do wonder about you.

It's ironic about how we excoriated the Republicans and the media for their petty Gotcha politics, but now that we see a petty and trivial opening, we can't resist the bait.

Utterly blind to the sexism of such remarks.  Thank god McCain didn't choose a Black woman as VP.  You'd be saying things like ... no, sorry, I can't go there.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
I'm starting to wonder about YOU (0.00 / 1)
And whether you're who you present yourself as, or a GOP troll planted here to stir up "See, libs are no better" nonsense.

Show me anything even remotely sexist in my comment, except in your reaction to it, which not only clearly presumes that when a woman is accused of having poor judgement, it's sexist, but requires a higher level of respect for a woman, because, oh, she's a woman. If THAT isn't sexist, I don't know what is. This is the same tired crap that dishonest and/or delusional diehard Clintonites hurled at Obama and which never stuck because there was zero merit to it.

And don't wonder about me. There's nothing to wonder about. I use snark when it's appropriate, and if it isn't wrt Palin and McCain's choice of her, then I don't know where it is. Palin is a far-right fundie who lives in la-la land, and needs to be shown as such. And McCain needs to be shown for the desperate fool that he is for having picked her. If that's sexist, then I'm a porcupine. Or you're a troll.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Given that ... (0.00 / 0)
Palin is a far-right fundie who lives in la-la land, and needs to be shown as such

... it is hardly necessary to go after her over her pregnant daughter, especially since Palin's response was to express pride in her daughter, not the shame that too many OpenLeft'ers are calling for either implicitly (by making it an issue) or shockingly explicitly.

The sentences you reference as proof that you're not sexist are indeed not sexist.  Nor do they mention the pregnancy matter.  Better to stick to their foreign policy, anti-choice, right-wing proclivities.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Shame? (0.00 / 0)
I've been on this thing all day and no one has advocated that.

Maybe you're confusing this with some other blog you were reading at the same time?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
The shame (0.00 / 0)
is on Palin for throwing away the best interests of her child while still saying with a straight face that she's pro-family.  She either should have declined the nomination or refrained from constructing herself as some sort of beacon of family values.  I don't think anyone here would advocate the shaming of her pregnant daughter.

You owe it to yourself to listen to This American Life's fantastic and common-sense explanation of the economic crisis.
[ Parent ]
Show me where I went after her pregnant daughter! (0.00 / 0)
This is why I'm calling you a troll, because you're making shit up and using it to smear a site member (i.e. me). That's is undeniably trollish. Go traffic in your BS concern trollism elsewhere.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
So Obama is a concern troll? (0.00 / 0)
Sayeth Obama:

I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics, it has no relevance to governor Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18. And how family deals with issues and teenage children that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that is off limits

If you are going after Palin over her pregnant daughter, then you imply there is something wrong with her daughter being pregnant.  You can hide behind the claim that it's only the shabby vetting process that you're attacking, but Obama understands that the entire line of attack is "off limits."

You stand smeared by your own words, to say nothing of your trollish tone.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Hide my ass (4.00 / 1)
There was no vetting process, and what THAT shows about McCain's judgement, cynicism and desperation is what this is all about.

I'm making two points here. One, the above point, which I think is the salient one wrt the election. And two, a side point, about how time after time, these fundies are shown to be hypocrites who live in fantasy worlds of their own making. The latter, I agree, is not an effective campaign point, but, considering how so MANY of these self-style moral purists are such total hypocrites (or, at least, naive fools), I don't see how we can avoid talking about it. None of this has to do with her gender. It's all about what kind of person she is, preaching an idiotic and harmful ideology of abstinence that does not work and which I firmly believe makes her judgement simply too poor for public office. She's a fantasist, not VP material.

And your attempt to excuse her behavior as off-limits and cast efforts to call out her poor judgement as sexist is what I viewed as trollish. I'm not criticizing her taste in movies or hairdo's. I'm criticizing her basic stances towards important life matters, which I view as out of touch with reality, thus rendering her unfit for high office. She's a fundie. She believes in ponies. She's not fit to be VP. Period. This is all fair game. That Obama (wisely) choses to stay above this does not make it off-limits for everyone else. I don't do marching orders.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Oh, puh-leeze... (0.00 / 0)
...like that's gonna stop the media frenzy. That is exactly the soundbite I want from someone in Barack Obama's position, but does anyone really think he doesn't see how this news helps his chances? Quite a few of the posters on this thread have expressed sympathy for Bristol Palin.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
It surely doesn't help his chances ... (0.00 / 0)
... if we insist on responding like sexist, uh, livestock.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...
[ Parent ]
Umm...for the record... (0.00 / 0)
...I've written NOTHING sexist.

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams
[ Parent ]
Me neither. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Keep pulling this non-existant sexist crap (0.00 / 1)
and you're going to be viewed as a troll, which I now think that you are. Perhaps you're just a naive fool who still believes in the crap about how Dems need to be "nicer" (i.e. never fight back or take advantage of the other side's mistakes), but it's 2008 and I find it massively hard to believe that anyone who takes part in a blog like this could possibly be that naive. So I'm leaning towards troll. Your words certainly indicate this.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
Many folks here think they know better than Barack (4.00 / 1)
so why should they start listening to him now?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
congratulations, lefties... (0.00 / 0)
This entire disclosure about the two children can do nothing but help Palin. Why? It now discloses publicly the last child has Down's Syndrome, something already known to all the people following it closely, but not to most Americans. It's also known that she was counseled to abort and kept the baby.

Now it's known that the daughter is pregnant and has also decided to keep her baby.

Two big scores for the pro-life right.

These are things the McCain camp could never "release" on their own without looking like they were taking advantage of this for political purposes.

But, if they can get the left to fumble all over it and force them to come out with the truth, several things are accomplished.
1) they make the left look stupid, angry, and petty
2) they get the info out that they wanted out in the first place, which solidifies Palin even more with the base.
3) they make Palin get a little sympathy from general America for being attacked by these baseless smears from the left.

Congratulations lefties.  You walked right into the trap.

THIS IS GREAT NEWS! (4.00 / 2)
FOR MCCAIN!!!!
[ Parent ]
Palin's 17-year Old Daughter Is Pregnant Rght Now | 223 comments
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