Like Marcy Kaptur says: (4.00 / 1)

"Real Reform or Nothing."

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by: david mizner @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 19:55:28 PM UTC

Mad As Hell tonight (0.00 / 0)

http://openleft.com/showDiary....

just an idea. its getting late in the day now.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

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by: Will @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 20:02:56 PM UTC

as an investor, as i see it (0.00 / 0)

We need a bill, in some form, to pass. The "bailout" is already priced into the market. If there is no bill, the market will dive to ridiculous depths.

It is fine to be against the bill...but what is the alternative? We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If there is no bill, the chances of Great Depression II are great.

The "bailout" will allow people to stay in their homes and business to secure credit.

As far as GE being on the no-short list, they are seen by many as a financial company because they receive a significant amount of their revenues from their financial businesses.

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by: blueprint @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 20:04:47 PM UTC

OR (4.00 / 1)

you could sell your positions this week, and then support defeating the bailout, and then rebuy all your positions at 30% lower - effectively making yourself 30% richer.

there is no absolute gains or losses. since i'm mostly in cash I stand to do well should the market tank. I welcome it.

the alternatives are to force the bank bond holders to write down their debt. they'll have plenty of cash then.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

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by: Will @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 20:08:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

as a non-investor (0.00 / 0)

i would encourage you to look at the interests of other people as well.  very very few people are saying that the market shouldn't be protected from total collapse - and even if they did, they would hardly be listened to by The Powers That Be as well as the Democrats.  But it's a question of short-term interests for a few entitites vs. a long term solution that will actually address the problem in a more balanced way.  It's not going to happen like this.  I agree wtih the commenter above - if it's that important for large investors, they're going to have to give up a lot to get it- not for punitive purposes alone, but because this is exactly the time to push for a reversal of plutocracy.

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by: dr anonymous @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 21:01:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

the problem is fear-mongering (0.00 / 0)

I don't think anything I've read on this blog denies that there is an economic crisis. The problem with passing a bailout NOW is that Paulson/Bernanke and now McCain have created such an atmosphere of fear about what might happen if we don't pass a bailout NOW!!

Legislation adopted out of fear will do more harm than good. That is the principle being argued by most of what I've read on OpenLeft. Better to leave it until January than to pass legislation with an administration that doesn't really know how to negotiate, only how to fear-monger.

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by: Cramer @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 21:01:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

also (0.00 / 0)

I know you guys probably hate Cramer, but he's been right on the crisis so-far ("They know nothing!").

Can anyone shoot down his points?:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/2685749...

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by: blueprint @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 20:08:22 PM UTC

sure (0.00 / 0)

restoring housing prices and attempting to keep the economic order of the past 25 years going doesn't solve the problem - it might provide for a gentler landing, but the only way to solve this problem is for someone - whether the american middle and working class or others - to be able to have enough income to generate demand for goods and services.  Otherwise, it's all speculative income.

He also speaks from a particular vantage point that looks at the market - he doesn't consider the negative aspects for taxpayers - which is that they're being asked to bear 11 trillion dollars in debt (at least, as far as I can tell) - further he assumes, like most people, that the U.S. government is impregnable.  What happens if that debt gets called in?  What will happen to U.S. social programmes?  What will the U.S. government do?  Go to war with China?  Go to the IMF?  Hardly seems unlikely, in the absence of other options.  I don't know the numbers, but if this crisis threatens to bring down the markets and all of the negative aspects of it and none fo the positive aspects of it are transferred to the US Government, then what happens to its creditworthiness?  And if that  collapses, what replaces it on the world markets?

I haven't gotten into the problem yet of giving a bunch of crooks with many conflicts of interests a $700 billion blank check and no oversight.

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by: dr anonymous @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 21:06:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nailed it. (0.00 / 0)

Matt's point is crucial: what happens to the markets is a matter of confidence. Americans have given this government a No Confidence vote by every conceivable measure. Therefore nothing this government does can restore confidence. The best available option is to slap a small bandaid, or just a promise, on now and dig in for big reform under a new regime that may be able to win back some credibility.

At least some overseas-oriented observers seem to agree: Here's a bit of a very frightening view of the Bush plan's disastrous potential consequences:

The effect of the MFI on economic growth is certainly detrimental. By diverting excessively large resources to buying useless financial papers, billions of dollars will be taken away from social and economic sectors. Hence, long-term growth will be undermined by lack of productive investment.

On the financing side, in view of past and current large US fiscal deficits, the MFI is simply not financeable. Only inflation is left as a financing option. The monetization of incredibly large deficits can degenerate into most destabilizing hyperinflation in the US history, and could cause an economic and social ordeal.

It will extract the heaviest tax from fixed-income recipients and wage earners and spark large real income cuts as well as large wealth redistribution from creditors to debtors. Food inflation has already exceeded tolerable levels and forced malnutrition or reduction in food standards for average - and low-income families. Exacerbating already high inflation could impoverish millions of American families. It will intensify unemployment and social discontent.

If the fiscal deficit exerts pressure on interest rates, then the deficit will rise even further, the cost of monumental private debt increase, and mass default both nationally and internationally will set off.

The whole long and detailed article is well worth a careful read. But be ready to get very scared about what Bush wants to inflict on us next.

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by: DaveW @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 20:26:54 PM UTC

i'm done being scared (0.00 / 0)

i feel like flying to washington from london and having a sit-in in my senators' office, not being scared.  I called one today, couldn't reach the other, and called the rep.  Ther'es a lot we can do, if we're angry enough and not terrified of a lame duck president with a 19% approval rating and no political leverage except fear.

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by: dr anonymous @ Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 21:09:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]