Mark Shields: "Obama More Than Held His Own"

by: Matt Stoller

Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 22:53


cnn

I spent the debate reading twitter, on IM, and going around the blogs and traditional media sites.  In the background was Obama and McCain chattering, and occasionally I looked up and saw the TV.  So no cone of silence, but no real focus on the debate.  What I'm seeing from the chatter and the analysis afterwards is that Obama held his own in this debate, which is an area in which McCain was supposed to dominate.  

Lots of blinking from McCain, and there's a general sense of depondency from the progressive side.  Perhaps it's all the 'John is right' lines coming from Obama.  The McCain campaign is taking advantage of those lines by pushing out that Obama agrees with John McCain.  The Obama camp is sending out fact check after fact check.

More soon.  What coverage are you watching and what are you hearing?

Matt Stoller :: Mark Shields: "Obama More Than Held His Own"

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Mark Shields: "Obama More Than Held His Own" | 36 comments
What does The Cone Of Silence have to do to get some respect anymore? (4.00 / 3)
First McCain at Saddlebrook, and now, et tu, Matt?  My world is crumbling.
I think someone should look into a recall... (0.00 / 0)
....on these things... they are obviously leaking...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!
[ Parent ]
Matt breeched the cone of silence???? (4.00 / 2)
OMGZ1!!!
[ Parent ]
What Do The Coneheads Have To Do With The Presidential Debate??? (4.00 / 1)
After all, they can't vote.  They're from France.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
I'll never understand people I guess. (4.00 / 1)
Obama killed him. It wasn't even close.

Past vs. the Future. That's what it was.

It seriously was (0.00 / 0)
And it was noticeable especially in foreign policy.

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[ Parent ]
Obama won, but didn't thrash McCain (4.00 / 3)
He did what he needed to do. Four years ago, I said those exact same words about John Kerry at a debate watching party I was hosting... He did not wildly exceed expectations.

Progressive despondency is due to the fact that he didn't do as well as he could have, because he's not using progressive frames and strategy. And he kept saying McCain was right, repeatedly -- a completely boneheaded rhetorical move at this stage in the campaign.

And we learned that he supports Reagan's junk-science Star Wars initiative. Yay for zombie stoopid!

[ Parent ]
Obama COULD have killed him (4.00 / 3)

  But he held his fire. He still did OK, didn't hurt himself... but boy, given all the openings McCain left him, he could have finished the election tonight. He didn't.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn
[ Parent ]
If only it was just us (0.00 / 0)
Sure, Obama killed McCain on all the substance.  Of course we think that.  But how this plays to those seriously considering voting for McCain is hard to figure out.  First, who would be dumb enough to seriously consider voting for McCain??  How do they think?

It's easy to double and triple think this kind of thing.

[ Parent ]
I spent the debate (0.00 / 0)
listening to what the candidates had to say answering the questions and responding to each others comments.  Sen. Obama is by far superior in presentation, and substantively he is a far more in-depth thinker about the issues and problems with international affairs.  Sen. McCain seemed superficial, and constantly tried to portray Sen. Obama as someone who doesn't understand.  Sen. McCain came across as condescending at best and down-right ruthless at worse.  Not once did he have enough respect for his opponent to look at him--even in the opening, he would not properly greet sen. Obama by meeting him and greeting him.  Sen. Obama went beyond the middle ground to greet Sen. McCain.

This was, in my opinion, a slam dunk for [Pres.] Obama.

Anderson Cooper just SLAMMED Palin! (4.00 / 2)
After talking to Biden, Wolf said, "It would be nice if we could get some words from Sarah Palin as well..."

and Cooper replied indignantly, "Don't hold your breath!"  

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

Nixon vs. Kennedy II (posted on prev thread...) (0.00 / 0)
McCain just looked creepy.  Had I just listened on radio I might have called it a draw.  Obama was cool & collected, definitely presidential.

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008
I did listen to it on the radio (0.00 / 0)
All except the first 20 minutes or so, which I watched on tv. (By the way, what is with McCain's awful tie?)

And you're right, it basically came across as a draw on the radio. Or rather, Obama did very well, but I think McCain had a lot of lines that would resonate with uninformed people.

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[ Parent ]
BBC (4.00 / 2)
Actually pretty amusing:


2223: Mr McCain is good on how nasty the Russians are, but what do to about it? We want to work with the Russians but we expect them to behave. And if they don't? Oh, silly me, nobody asks - this is a presidential debate...

2132: Mr McCain on the likelihood of an attack on the US: we are safer but a long way from safe. Mr Obama says the biggest threat is terrorists getting nuclear weapons. He also talks about restoring respect and gives credit to McCain on torture. With Mr McCain we are back to Senator Obama "not understanding" something. I think he has used that phrase, my friends, too many times...

[...]

Conclusion: All in all a waste of time. I take it back - Mr McCain was quite right to consider ditching it. Flabby and insipid - too long and too unfocused to tell us anything. Obama is cool and McCain is tough. Big deal.


Condescending (4.00 / 8)
I think the take-home message will be McCain was condescending.  From what I'm reading and hearing, this is the subject that keeps coming back.  Since Obama clearly did understand what he was talking about this makes McCain look bad.  I wasn't sure this was bad for McCain at the time, but I'm beginning to think it will be.
I hope you're right (4.00 / 5)
Maybe SNL can make a skit about it.


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.
[ Parent ]
Let's hope so (4.00 / 2)
I guess the pundits sometimes just need to focus on some personality/presentational thing (like Gore sighing) because they can't talk about policy for more than a few minutes at a time.  So if "McCain was condescending" is the one thing like that from this debate that they feel like they can latch on to--I mean, sure he was, but not in any way that struck me as being over the top or out of character--I guess that helps us.  
[ Parent ]
Condescenscion. (4.00 / 6)

 It's the new sighing.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn
[ Parent ]
Sigh! (4.00 / 1)
I think you're right.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Apparently I am watching a different debate than everyone else. (4.00 / 1)
Because I thought Obama was absolutely atrocious on the economy but absolutely wiped the floor with John McCain on foreign policy.

I do not understand why Obama went tit-for-tat with McCain on the economy instead of continually tying McCain to Bush.  It took hi, 37 minutes (I looked) to do that.  The argument was there for the taking repeatedly: "We tried it your way for 8 years.  Let's do something else for awhile."

After that, woo boy, Obama dominated.  In my opinion he controlled the stage and set the tone of the debate during the foreign policy section.  McCain looked tired and pissed off and spent a whole hell of a lot of time rambling while Obama was specific, confident, and persuasive.

yeah i think you did see a different debate from me :) (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
The despondency is over the following (4.00 / 3)
1. Obama never answering this "obama doesn't get it" crap.
2. Obama agreeing with McCain but never using that agreement to pivot and launch an attack
3. Obama getting talked over.

That said - this debate was a draw, in my opinion, which is largely to McCain's short-term advantage. In the longterm - namely, over the 4 rounds, I think this will work to Obama's advantage.  If Biden doesn't blow the second leg, this is a runaway win for Obama, I think.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net



QT - please explain (4.00 / 1)
If this was a draw, how is that an advantage to McCain? This was his subject matter and the area where expectations for him were highest. IMO, Obama hands down wins a draw on foreign policy. It's Kennedy/Nixon redux. Obama the Younger only had to stand his ground against McCain the Elder. He did that and then some.

Side note: Biden's post-debate spin on CNN and MSNBC was genius. His debate with Palin is going to be a genuine spectacle.

[ Parent ]
I agree. Biden was the closer for the post-debate (0.00 / 0)
I call a draw a win for McCain because he was tanking all week - pulling to a draw is going in the right direction.

Unfortunately for McCain - this WAS his subject, and only commanding a draw on the first debate means he's got nowhere to go but down... which is why I think in the long run Obama wins.

I'm also thrilled to see so many others polling a win for Obama.  I'll take it! :)

Here is my post on my own blog: http://obamaproject.windonwate...

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net



[ Parent ]
Gergen said something that made sense. (4.00 / 1)
The two candidates offer fundamentally different views of foreign policy. Obama stresses diplomacy and McCain a robust, Bush like approach. I think this is true and I hope the American people are ready for some stability and common sense. We'll see.  
"Hachett approach when a scapel is needed" (4.00 / 1)
Agree that McCain's reckless, shoot from the hip approach came through tonight.

Obama cited a number of examples of such and when McCain threw out, "FREEZE all spending" was another example. How ridiculous. Obama's "hachett approach..." response was precisely right.

McCain is a dangerous, irresponsible man. That is the narrative that is sticking, imo.  

[ Parent ]
Better debate format, but still lacking (4.00 / 1)
That was the most back-and-forth I've ever seen in a debate this big.  Granted, canidates rarely answered the question and instead just jumped right into their own talking points.  McCain immediately turned Lehrer's question about the "lessons of Vietnam" into yet another rendition of his Iraq spiel.  Then when Lehrer gave the follow-up to Obama, Lehrer didn't even bother mentioning Vietnam and just asked about lessons from Iraq.  McCain ending with his POW story and Obama ending with the story about his Dad from Kenya suitable ended the debate as a contrived evening that changed absolutely nothing.   At least we got to see some ideas juxtaposed.  Too bad McCain kept lying and Obama never forcefully told him to get his facts right.  
Conclusion: My Mom is North Korean (4.00 / 1)
I have a Korean friend, Ken, who is 5'4" tall.  My mom is 5'1".

-P. Terrence McGovern

Barfight (4.00 / 5)
Remember that these debates are not about how those of us who already support the candidates think they did.  It's about convincing the undecided.

And I think Obama came across as forceful, and importantly for a Democratic Presidential candidate, as someone who is not a wimp.  When McCain barked at Obama, Obama barked right back.  That's a huge improvement over Kerry and Gore.  I think I can sleep at night knowing that Obama is responsible for mine and my kids' safety.  And I bet a lot of people who were hesitant about Obama can now imagine him as Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces.

Voter Genome Project

Bingo! (4.00 / 1)
Exactly right.

[ Parent ]
McCain Is Contemptuous/Angry (4.00 / 5)
While Obama is genial.  That seems to be the ideas of Pat Buchanan and others on Countdown.  Chris Matthews also went into that territory.  MSNBC's coverage also seems to be making a big deal of McCain not looking Obama in the eye.

I read somewhere that the Obama campaign supposedly wanted to bait McCain into getting visibly angry and throwing a tantrum on-stage.  I wonder how much of Obama's somewhat understated approach is his personal style and how much was a conscious strategy to create a contrast between their demeanors for voters who less concerned with policy points.  I do think that painting McCain as angry and unstable is a more potent line of attack than the "McSame" meme.  Think about how painting Howard Dean as an angry, nutty guy hurt him in 2004.  The McCain campaign team is clearly afraid of putting their guy in uncontrolled situations because they are afraid of how he will react.

Sometimes, it feels like some people are too enamored with the "McSame" line because they want to use 2008 to refight 2000 and 2004 in the same way that some conservatives wanted to use Iraq to refight the Vietnam War.  McCain isn't the same as Bush; he's dumber and crazy on top of that.  That should be exploited by trying to provoke crazy, old man reactions.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

I don't get the john is right issue (3.00 / 4)
I saw the snap ad they put together.  It's silly.  The reason is that everyone who has even a shred of intelligence--even a shred--knows what the next word is that comes out of a guy's mouth in an argument when he says "so and so is right."  That word is, of course, "BUT."  In the GOP ad, the viewer is just waiting for the "BUT."  So it seems disingenuous and silly, because no one thinks that Obama thinks McCain is right.  

This is one where cognitive dissonance is just too strong.  I hope the Republicans try to overplay it, because it is so easily smacked down and it is a totally ineffective attack.  

one more point on that (4.00 / 5)
Classic trial lawyer strategy:  give a little credit first.  It establishes that you're a good guy, a reasonable guy, you're open-minded and willing to give due credit.  When you stick the shiv in afterward--as Obama did in this debate--you're a lot more believable.  Establish credibility first, then make the argument.  I would expect this from a guy like Edwards but Obama has actually been really good with this tactic throughout.  McCain is not.  McCain has a habit of A) making unsupported assertions out of the blue and B) name-dropping.  His claims of bipartisanship are destroyed by his simple refusal to even grant Obama a glance, much less acknowledge when he's done something right.  

That's the thing about these debates.  People tend to "score" them like they're debates.  But they're not.  They are more like closing arguments.  They are trying to persuade a jury, not the judges.  I think that is why we're seeing a media CW on "tie game" and a poll CW on "Obama kicked ass."

[ Parent ]
Yeah ... 'despondency' (4.00 / 1)
I sure am despondent over ALL the quick polls of undecideds favoring Obama.  Matt, why don't you end the charade and become a Green or what the hell ever?
Yea! Tad Devine is NOT on my TV... (0.00 / 0)
...spinning badly for my candidate with his sneering, curled upper lip. Addition by subtraction. Advantage Obama.

Bonus - Bob Shrum's missing too...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

john mcbeta (4.00 / 1)
my favorite comment of the night:

I think people really are missing the point about McCain's failure to look at Obama. McCain was afraid of Obama. It was really clear--look at how much McCain blinked in the first half hour. I study monkey behavior--low ranking monkeys don't look at high ranking monkeys. In a physical, instinctive sense, Obama owned McCain tonight and I think the instant polling reflects that.


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Mark Shields: "Obama More Than Held His Own" | 36 comments
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