Zombie Lies: Iran Edition

by: Daniel De Groot

Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:00


Since McCain said it several times to batter Obama over his willingness to talk with adversaries before bombing their innocent citizens, it's worth noting that the President of Iran has not called for "wiping Israel off the map."  Obama did at least mention that Ahmadinejad is not in charge of the Iranian military and would not be able to order such an attack even if he wanted to, but that he supposedly said this has become one of the right's favourite zombie lies that cannot die.

Inside, the dissection.  

Daniel De Groot :: Zombie Lies: Iran Edition
As you'd expect, the first challenger to this meme is Juan Cole:


the actual quote, which comes from an old speech of Khomeini, does not imply military action, or killing anyone at all. The second reason is that it is just an inexact translation. The phrase is almost metaphysical. He quoted Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." It is in fact probably a reference to some phrase in a medieval Persian poem.

The Cole post goes on to detail his attempt to translate the remarks himself, and his reasons for disputing the translations that the wire services were going with.

See, Khomeini (not to be confused with Khamenei, the current Supreme Leader of Iran) is a kind of Reagan figure for Iran, and Iranian politicians like Ahmadinejad will tend to quote him.  So the line in Farsi comes from an old Khomeini speech.  Hell, McCain stole a line from Churchill tonight with his "end of the beginning" quip about the financial meltdown.  Same idea (without, obviously any moral comparison between Churchill and Khomeini).

Cole later better expresses why the the "wiped off the map" phrasing simply cannot be accurate as a translation of Ahmadinejad's thoughts: "No such idiom exists in Persian."  For anyone who speaks more than one language, you will have encountered phrases that simply do not mean anything in the other language.  I hesitate to guess how poorly attempting to translate "lipstick on a pig" into farsi would go.  Or "cut and run" or any one of dozens of aphorisms used in political discourse in english.  

Naturally, no one who already believes Iran is itching to nuke Israel any chance it gets will be satisfied with the word of farsi speaker Juan Cole with his love of all things Iran-


I should again underline that I personally despise everything Ahmadinejad stands for, not to mention the odious Khomeini, who had personal friends of mine killed so thoroughly that we have never recovered their bodies.

But anyway, Cole is hardly alone.  Aside from this excellent analysis published in the Guardian, we also have the raging leftists in MEMRI who translated it thusly:


"'Imam [Khomeini] said: 'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.' [...]

Of course, if all this weren't enough, there is the little matter that Ahmadinejad has been asked to clarify this and has done so:


He also suggested that Iran would not launch any attack on Israel - America's ally in the Middle East.

"There is no need for any measures by the Iranian people" to bring about the end of the "Zionist regime" in Israel, Mr Ahmadinejad said.

And here's another (better) translation by AFP of some other Ahmadinejad remarks that same year:


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has predicted that Britian, Israel and the United States would eventually disappear from the world like the Egyptian pharaonic kings.
[...]
Ahmadinejad's comments were the latest salvo by the deeply religious president against the West and Israel. He has repeatedly predicted that Israel is doomed to disappear.

The Point:  McCain Lying or Just Clueless

I realize this kind of thing has been published a number of times.  But McCain said it several times in the debate, and watching the post-debate analysis, no one is calling him on it.  It is simply an accepted "fact" of the discourse of American politics.  Much like Atrios noted today about Sarah Palin:


Her problem isn't so much that she speaks in gibberish, the problem is that she doesn't speak in Official Washington Gibberish. John McCain spouts gibberish all the time, as do all politicians, but it's often the kind of gibberish which is part of the Beltway dialect.

There is still a real chance John McCain will win this election, and knowing the truth about this remark could become very important in heading off another colossally stupid war.  Further, who knows what the October surprise might be, for now it is all economy all the time, but if shit hits the fan in Iran over centrifuges or sanctions, we will be hearing a lot more of this canard.


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For your consideration (0.00 / 0)
This article reminded me of something that Michael Miner, a local reporter for the Chicago Reader, said in a reply to his article last month about Israel:

There's a healthy sampling of other Ahmadinejad comments on Israel, including the statement at a 2006 news conference that "Israel can ultimately not continue its existence." This would be tolerated as the tough-minded assessment of a theocracy's internal contradictions if made by an academic in Cambridge, but Ahmadinejad is not that. [emphasis added]

That Ahmadinejad can act on his beliefs about Israel can't be ignored.  Personally, I find little solace that he doesn't wish Israelis to die, just for their country to cease to exist.  It's like saying Reagan's joke about "we begin bombing in five minutes" was only a joke, completely removed from any context.

Some other articles of interest regarding this topic: Here's the Wikipedia article that's mentioned in the comment Miner is replying to, which he also mentions, and here is a similar analysis to Daniel's of the "wiped off the map" statement, though it also points out that this translation was provided by Iran's own news agency.  (And yes, I'm aware that that last link probably would disagree with my conclusion that Ahmadinejad's statements are not benign.)


The real treat to Israel lies elsewhere (4.00 / 1)
I'm actually happy that Reagan's stupid joke, was a joke (or a stupid threat), and that he did not bomb Russia. And the difference between a stupid joke and mass genocide is important.

Amadinejad has said many stupid and offensive things and I haven't hear him explicitly correct the impression that he is threatening Israel. But being a jackass doesn't make him guilty of genocide and it is hard for me to believe that Iran is going to self-destruct by attacking Israel.

Most of America's issues with Iran involve oil, gas and pipelines and Sunni fear of a potential Shia hegemony. It's the oil stupid!  

Israel, as we all know, can defend herself. The real threat to Israel lies elsewhere, like Pakistan for instance. Why isn't Israel taking out their nuclear sites?


[ Parent ]
Ok (0.00 / 0)
Well I can agree his statements are not "benign" but that's not the point here.  I'm not arguing that Ahmadinejad is a friend of Israel or something.  He's clearly not a fan.  But all these Serious Adults in charge of foreign policy are attacking him for things he has not said.  Which makes it really disingenuous on the part of people like McCain.

They're lying.  If what Ahmadinejad really said is so bad, let them use an accurate translation of it when calling for more assertive dealing with Iran.

Besides, I can never get over the fact that he's not the dude with his finger on any button.  He's Secretary of the Interior.  Khamenei is the guy to watch.


[ Parent ]
Cold War (4.00 / 1)
It seems like what Ahmadinejad was saying is similar to if a president of the United States said during the cold war that one day the Soviet Union would fall, and the United States would outlast it.

It's not really all that all incendiary at all, if taken properly. Just the same old "our country is better than yours and will last longer" that rivals have been saying to each other forever.


Yeah: He's just playing to his base. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I think McCain was making a play for the Jewish vote in Florida (4.00 / 1)
by suggesting that Obama would be soft on Ahmadinejad and Ahmadijad wanted to "wipe out" Israel. He hit this argument several times. He knows Florida's electoral votes could very well make the difference again in this election, and that many older voters concerned about Israel's safety are skeptical about Obama.

And, crucially, Obama may very well have known that McCain's quote was based on a mistranslation. But any effort to correct that would have been viewed as defending Ahmadinejad, which would have made the voters this particular moment of kabuki was being played over less likely to support Obama.

Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!


Exactly correct (4.00 / 2)
But any effort to correct that would have been viewed as defending Ahmadinejad, which would have made the voters this particular moment of kabuki was being played over less likely to support Obama.

An this is where the MSM drops the ball again. It is not possible for Obama to correct a manufactured misconception singlehandedly in a debate. Certainly, the MSM wouldn't correct the disinformation, after the fact, even if it was laid out in front of them in great detail. They are not willing to push back this meme for a variety of disingenuous reasons.


[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
Florida's electoral votes won't necessarily make the difference this year. Obama's leading in all the states Kerry won in 2004 plus New Mexico and Iowa. That puts him at 264 electoral votes.

Obama's leading in Virginia and Colorado in some recent polls; if he wins either state, he wins the election. Florida, Indiana, Nevada, North Carolina, Missouri, and Ohio are all close, and Obama wins the election if he wins any one of those states (Nevada would be a 269-269 tie, which Obama would probably win the House of Representatives). McCain has to win every one of them to win the election.


[ Parent ]
can we not talk about foreign policy? (0.00 / 0)
i'm afraid i'll hear the phrase "Dr. Kissinger" again and have to go hang myself.

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