Moral Politics And The Bailout

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 18:30


Nathaniel Frank, a gay historian who teaches at UC Santa Barbara, has an insightfull diary at HuffPo, "The Moral Subtext of the Bailout Debate", which makes no direct mention of George Lakoff, but lays out an argument about the conservative morality behind the bailout that comes straight out of Lakoff's work nonetheless.

Put simply, Lakoff says that conservative ideology is rooted in an authoritarian "Strict Father" family model which assumes a hostile world in which evil must constantly fought against. From this it follows that the wealthy are virtuous because their wealth is a sign of moral strength in fighting off evil.  In addition to this point-which Frank explores-there are two other aspect of conservative ideology that merit specific attention.  One is the emergence of racist arguments, shifting blame for the crisis onto minorities.  Another is the distinct nature of finger-pointing rightwing populism, which McCain briefly and fitfully embraced.  While populists on both the left and the right are justifiably angry, there are significant differences that need to examined, not ignored.  Undersanding what makes the two different can prove crucial in gaining ascendency for the leftwing version.

Paul Rosenberg :: Moral Politics And The Bailout
Conservative Trickle-Down Morality

Frank writes:

Critics have cried "hypocrisy" at conservatives' willingness to throw a government lifeline to Wall Street while refusing to do the same for ordinary Americans. But calling free-market, pro-bailout conservatives "hypocrites" lets them off easy. In reality, there is a consistent worldview behind their position -- it's just not one most are willing to talk about: the reason government should aid the rich but not the poor is that the rich are presumed to use money more wisely -- after all, that's why they became rich in the first place.

This belief is the cornerstone of trickle-down economics: the theory is that tax breaks to those with money -- individuals and companies--are more important than tax breaks to those without, because the investment savvy of the rich will trickle down to benefit the rest of us....

The problem is this: a tax cut that provides a million dollars to a single individual or a single dollar to a million individuals still pumps a million dollars into the economy. So what justifies giving so much of it to one rich guy instead of spreading it across a million regular people?

Only the conservative belief that the rich acquired their money by exercising greater virtue than the rest of us. While trickle-down economics theory can be used to mask a raw power grab, it is also a philosophy of moral superiority which many conservatives have come to truly believe. It credits the wealthy not only with financial savoir-faire, but with character excellence: the rich are not just financially wise, but morally good, because they use their resources in ways that promote, instead of harming, the general welfare.

As I noted above, there is no mention of Lakoff here, but this all flows directly from Lakoff's analysis as I broadly described it.  Moral strength, self-discipline, adherance to the rules, and the strict dichotomization of right and wrong are all crucial concomitance of the rightwing justification of wealth.  For exemplars such as these, taxes surely are a burden, and an unfair one at that.  We should be giving them money.  And, indeed, for several decades now, that's exactly what we've been doing.  Now we're being asked to do it some more.  

But there is a problem here, Frank notes.  The fairy tale hasn't come true:

It [the trickle-down philosophy of moral superiority] credits the wealthy not only with financial savoir-faire, but with character excellence: the rich are not just financially wise, but morally good, because they use their resources in ways that promote, instead of harming, the general welfare.

With the meltdown of the Wall Street giants, it's time to admit that's just not so. Raw self-interest, high-risk behavior, old-fashioned greed, irresponsible choices -- these were the impulses of the fat cats who, taking advantage of unsound public policy, pushed our economy to the brink of disaster, imperiling the wellbeing of us all. The free market, while often an efficient allocator of goods and services, quite simply leaves too many people and too many social goods to their own devices.

This is almost self-evidently true, but it has to be stated.  And not just once, but over and over and over again.  It has to be pounded into people's heads.  This was the rationale behind three decades of untrammelled greed, and this is the calamaty it has all produced.

Racism

However, this isn't the whole of the story.  Conservative ideology is, after all, more a justification of hierarchical power than anything else.  Lakoff's explanation of its logic deals with the internal structuring of what are sometimes known as "legitimating myths."  In Social Dominance Theory (SDT) developed by Sidanius and Pratto (Social Dominance: An Intergroup Theory of Social Hierarchy and Oppression), their place in preserving the hierarchical social system is central, translating attitudes into support for institutions and individual practices that keep hierarchical relations in place:

From the perspective of SDT, ideology is a rationalization of attitudes toward group dominance ("social dominance orientation," SDO)--either embracing it or not.  SDO is a more fundamental attitude than either racism or sexism, but is correlated with both--including racist and sexist attitudes that are rationalized and/or denied.  It shows correlations with a wide range of rationalizing ideas or systems of belief, as indicated by this chart showing a variety of ways in which it contributes to opposition against government programs helping minorities:

All of this serves as background to the recent rightwing attempts to blame minorities for the financial meltdown, as I noted in quick hit earlier this week:

    Racism Makes You Stupid, Episode #956,234: Right Blames Blacks For Financial Crisis.

    Never ones to quit playing the blame game, movement conservatives are trying to blame the current crisis on blacks (and, to a lesser extent, Latinos) and the liberals who love them.  Media Matters took Fox's Neil Cavuto to task for getting the ball rolling on this. NRO jumped on the bandwagon, "big time" as America's #2 war criminal would say, in an editorial yesterday blaming the Community Reinvestment Act, which provides a mechanism (obviously rather inadequate) for promoting investment in traditionally redlined communities. The editorial, which began by defending Phil Gramm, went on to state:

    Much more problematic than Gramm-Leach-Bliley is the Community Reinvestment Act, a bit of legislative arm-twisting much beloved by Sen. Obama and his fellow Democrats. One of the reasons so many bad mortgage loans were made in the first place is that Barack Obama's celebrated community organizers make their careers out of forcing banks to do so. ACORN, for which Obama worked, is one of many left-wing organizations that spent decades pressuring banks and bank regulators to do more to make mortgages available to people without much in the way of income, assets, or credit. These campaigns often were couched in racially inflammatory terms.

    There are just two itsy-bitsy problems with this "explanation," as Matt Yglesias explains:

    #1, the CRA has been around since 1977.  The current financial crisis has not.

    #2, the financial crisis problem is not with the loans themselves, but with how the financial system deceptively repackaged them.  (Indeed, without this deceptive repackaging the sub-prime mortgage situation would never have mushroomed the way it did.)

    Actually, of course, it's much worse than this, since, as per usual, many blacks who qualified for market-rate loans were steered into sub-prime loans instead.

    What's the name for this?

      (A) Blaming the victim.
      (B) Racism.
      (C) Conservatism.
      (D) All of the above.

Populism, Left vs. Right

Finally, we come to the issue of populism.  McCain, who has deep, longstanding ties to those who caused the financial crisis--as well as ideological support for them--attempted to turn on a dime from denying their was a crisis to positioning himself as a fierce opponent of special interests, who would protect ordinary American taxpayers.  How is this possible?  The answers are incredibly complex, but a big chunk of what makes it possible is simple associational logig.  Conservatism appeals to people on the basis of identity.  "We conservatives" are the upstanding moral people--who are exemplified in the wealthy (as discussed above) as well as our legitimate political leaders.  The division between "us" and "them" is crucial to conservative identity politics.  I have referred to this various times before.  In

Lloyd Free and Hadley Cantril's 1967 landmark book, The Political Beliefs of Americans: A Study of Public Opinion, based on Gallup-conducted surveys in 1964 found that operational conservatism (defined in terms of opposition to social spending programs, which their data showed to be the hard core of cosnervative identity) was powerfully correlated with opposition to sharing power with others:

This indicates that the "us/them" mindset is deeply ingrained in conservative thinking, which means that a key ingrediant of populist anger at "them" is readily available on the right.  This is much less the case on the left, not least because those on the left tend to have a more complicated view of the world, and tend not to see things so consistently in terms of black and white morality.  Moral complexity and ambiguity are much more recognized by liberals, which is often quite appropriate.  But not always.  And this is where liberals far too often seem to fall down.

The challenge for leftwing populism is always how to engage with passionate commitment, and yet leave room for complexity, as well as leaving room for "them" to become part of "us."

This is a vast topic, far too vast to handle here.  But an indication of how to deal with it can readily be seen in the example of Martin Luther King.  King was entirely unapologetic for the unyeilding stand he took in fighting against racism.  Yet, he repeatedly articulated the view that those who oppossed him were not, in the end his enemies.  They were, in their own ways, trapped in the same ignorance, fear and hatred that was the real enemy of black and white alike.  By seeing the enemy not as individuals or groups of invididuals, but as attitudes and ideologies based on those attitudes, King showed us a powerful way forward--one that all of us can learn from today, and every day.

Applying this lesson may not be easy.  And it is far from the only lesson we need to learn. But it is an essential lesson, if we are to claim the populist mantle, and not let blind rightwing anger rip it from our hands.


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So, what does his 'gay-ness' have to do with this? (4.00 / 1)
Did I miss something?

Nothing In Particular (0.00 / 0)
Nor does his being a historian, really.  Or teaching at UCSB. But we often tend to read things flatly online in ways we don't even realize.  Everything written comes to us as text, disembodied, without accent, tone of voice, much less the physical presence of people.  And since this was someone I'd never heard of before, I was curious about him, clicked on his bio, and these were things I found, and decided to share.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That is fair, but at the same time (0.00 / 0)
I don't think it is respectful.  Nathanial Frank deserves to be judged for what he contributes to society, for what he does to engage others and to promote community.  When you began your description of Mr. Frank you, perhaps inadvertently, highlighted a personal attribute--something very personal about him that has nothing to do with his public image and character--and by doing so you framed his image in a way that was disrespectful.  In short, I believe you should retract your statement--even if, at this point it is too late to undo the possible damage you may have done.

Now, on the other side of the coin, so to speak: if the community here is really progressive--and, I don't mean just the word, progressive--but truly progressive so that none here would be biased or prejudiced in any way then I would say: great.  It still doesn't take away from the fact that it was mentioned in the first place, and that such a mention is itself a good indication of a bias, but if this community is open to and willing to let others live the way they want to live, then I say: Yeah.

But, from what I have seen, and I hope I am totally wrong, that wouldn't be the case, would it?

You own Mr. Frank an apology.


[ Parent ]
Oh, Please! (4.00 / 2)
Look, I got this information from his bio at Huffington Post. This is obviously information that he not only feels comfortable with, but freely chooses to share.

I, personally, am more inclined to want to read things by queer historians than things by people who are neither queer nor historians.  For those who feel otherwise, the loss is theirs.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh Please yourself., (0.00 / 1)
Stop making excuses for your transgressions, and just own them.  We ALL make mistakes.  Own it!  And, then, let's move on.

[ Parent ]
here's a "bias" for you... (4.00 / 1)
Some queer-theory types argue that gays are uniquely positioned to critique society's subject/object power norms, and that has an immediate relationship to the social dominance orientation analysis that Paul promotes.

WikiPedia entry, short enough to post in full:

Subject-SUBJECT consciousness, a concept proposed by Harry Hay believed by Hay to be queer people's unique perspective on the world. Hay saw heterosexual society existing in a subject-object dynamic; where men, who had the culturally acceptable power, saw only themselves as subject and therefore higher than women, who were treated as objects and property. Hay extrapolated this interpersonal-sexual dynamic (male-power:female-subordinate) into a broader social context, believing that the subject-object relationship was the driving force behind most all of societies ills. Objectification served as a barrier, emotionally separating an individual (subject) from another individual by dehumanizing them, making them object.

When Hay looked at homosexual relationships, however, he saw a different dynamic at work. He believed that homosexual relationships were based on mutual respect and empathy for the other, a longing for a companion who was as equally valuable as the self. Hay termed this interpersonal-sexual dynamic subject-SUBJECT (which Hay capitalized for emphasis in all of his writings). He believed that this subject-SUBJECT way of viewing the world was queer people's most valuable contribution to the greater society. By empathizing with all people, relating to each other as equal to equal, society would change drastically and social injustices would be eradicated.

I wish it were all so simple, and there are of course well known counter-examples, but to a large degree this theory makes sense to me.

Young Scotty Jenkins, so big and able
Saw his fair colleen stretched by the wall
Tore the left leg from under the table
And smashed all the dishes at Flannigan's Ball


rjt12@.....


[ Parent ]
Well, There's Both A More General Principle Here (0.00 / 0)
and a whole lot of empirical evidence.

In general, it's the case that those with unearned power are the least aware of how it works.  Blacks know much more about white skin privilege than whites do. etc. Hay's theory is more debatable, I think, though I would probably tend to agree.

But then one simply has the example of someone like James Baldwin, who was, of course, just a fricken genius.  But even so, he could have been every bit as brilliant a straight white dude, and he wouldn't have been in a position to see what he saw, and communicate it to the rest of us.

But I think the most salient particular argument about what gay experience contributes is the awareness that gender is a construct that goes to the core of our identity.  It's really hard--downright impossible, actually--for straight guys to get any sort of handle on this at all without a lot of learning from gays and women.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
and perhaps you owe Professor Frank an apology for calling him "mister" (4.00 / 1)


Young Scotty Jenkins, so big and able
Saw his fair colleen stretched by the wall
Tore the left leg from under the table
And smashed all the dishes at Flannigan's Ball


rjt12@.....


[ Parent ]
Are you that prejudiced? (0.00 / 0)
Are you really?

[ Parent ]
Oh, I forgot to mention... (0.00 / 0)
I've been banned again.  It seems some people REALLY don't like my ideas.  But, I'm still cabresch (cjabresch), and now: banned_by_Matt.

[ Parent ]
I think it's mostly (4.00 / 2)
That you seem to possess no interest in contributing something worthwhile to the discussion, merely in whinging about having been banned. Of course, it could be your ideas that arouse this dislike, but I would have to see one of those before I could comment on it.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Good stuff (4.00 / 2)
I tend to only post when I disagree, but I think I need to dish out positive reinforcement as well.  Unfortunately, that means I have nothing of interest to actually say...

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Bailout Bannings? (4.00 / 1)
Thanks for posting details like this Paul. That's all I was asking for last night. Although, I don't dare say anything against the arguments of those who are against the bailout, because apparently that is reason enough to get banned from this site. (I can't log in to my original screename--kjvd00-- today after asking for more details on one of the posts last night.)

Demockracy.com


Same here... (0.00 / 0)
I, too, have been banned.  My screen name was cabresch, now it is cjabresch.  My approach is that I will take the battle to Matt, Chris, Paul, and anyone else who wishes to quell and silence opposing views.  I am a firm believer in the freedom of speech-and I will challenge each and every one of the transgressors of that freedom.

I know they don't like it, but that makes the effort even more sweet!


[ Parent ]
Exactly... (0.00 / 0)
Right, that's the thing.

Liberals are supposed to be for open dialogue and for intellectual disagreement. Conservatives are supposed to be anti-free thought.

One of the reasons I like this site over dailykos is that it seems to tolerate dissenting views. Although, several main authors (not the one who did this thread or one of the main guys--they're great and the reason I come here) seem to disagree with this.

Many here are very liberal on social issues and tend to be more centrist on economic issues. Being more educated is NOT correlated with being more liberal on issues of trade, etc., unlike most social issues where it is. Because of this, there seems to be anti-intellectual bent in some of the posts here that deal with economics that doesn't exist on other topics (definitely not Paul, he's about as intellectual as they come!)

Demockracy.com


[ Parent ]
Paul is ok, but (4.00 / 1)
he just doesn't like to be wrong.  He has a hard time admitting it.

[ Parent ]
Please Get Your Facts Straight (0.00 / 0)
(1) I didn't ban you.  In fact, as soon as Matt declared his intention, I told him that I thought this was a bad idea, right here.

(2) I nominally have administrative status here, as well as front-paging, but I am not one of the principals here.  This is not my site, I am guest, same as everyone else.

(3) Being banned from a site doesn't infringe your free speech.  It is not a government action.  There are virtually limitless other places to go.  I don't agree with Matt's decision to ban people, but he's not acting as a government censor.

There are all sorts of places in the world where you can't say whatever you want, because it would disrupt the purposes those places exist to serve.  (Being shushed in a movie theatre doesn't violate free speech, either, for example.) If you want to say whatever you want, the option is simple: you leave and go elsewhere.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul... (4.00 / 1)
Nobody is blaming you. We know you weren't the one that banned anyone.  

Demockracy.com


[ Parent ]
I have BEEN banned.... (0.00 / 0)
I AM STILL banned.  You don't like it?  You tell that to the committee that runs this site.  And correct the problem.

I will continue to resist and fight against any and all efforts to suppress free speech on this site.  You may not be to blame, but because of the anonymity of the banning I must hold all representatives of this site accountable for that transgression.  Fix it.  The reputation of THIS forum is at stake.


[ Parent ]
We know... (0.00 / 0)
We know who banned us (Paul mentions him above).

I'm sorry to bring this up on your post Paul, but to be honest, if it was brought up on that other person's post, I'm sure it would have been immediately deleted.


Demockracy.com


[ Parent ]
I have been BANNED again... !! (0.00 / 1)
Right in the middle of responding to your note I was banned, and denied the opportunity to respond.  Now that's what I can good censorship--IF EVER THERE WAS SUCH A THING.

MATT did it again.  But don't worry, when he cut me off this is what I was going to say:

Just in the last few minutes I have been banned again.  This is wrong, and I will continue to find ways to challenge this site and post what NEEDS to be posted.  I will continue to do so until the problem has been corrected.  I see this as a management problem: no blogger should have the right to suppress dissent.  That is contrary to what blogging is...and, Matt knows this.  My views are respectful and open to discussion.  I invite discussion.

The more time goes on that this is not corrected the more it becomes an issue.  The only correct action is to face it head on, and accept the reality: free speech is an essential and vital component of a free society.  If this 'progressive' site wants to retain its credibility then it must adhere to the basic tenets of a free society: free speech.

Matt...stop using your power of an administrator of this site to stop discussion.  Are you afraid of dissent?  Are you not willing to have an open discussion?   What gives?  Can you not address your problem with me directly?

I am now posting under the name: banned_by_Matt. My real handle is: cabresch (of course, that has changed to other things in between...  Note, I have no problem saying who I am.  How about you, Matt?  How about owning what you are doing?)


[ Parent ]
Freedom of Speech (4.00 / 2)
means the GOVERNMENT cannot restrict your speech.

Last I checked the owners of blogs were not the government.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You and Paul are wrong... (0.00 / 0)
Freedom of speech means that government protects the right of citizens to speak freely.  Don't forget the '60s.  And, don't interpret too literally.

[ Parent ]
Oh, I forgot to say... (0.00 / 0)
Yep...it's me again...  :)

[ Parent ]
And that principle would be (0.00 / 0)
codified ... where exactly? Because it's the first I've ever heard of it.

If you believe the government is going to step in here and force Open Left to publish your drivel on their own dime, then I'm pretty sure I know exactly how you spent the sixties.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
However, is that the new standard for liberal blogs? (0.00 / 0)
Supporting comments only? No dissent? Well, this sure will result in some great discussions:

"Great story!" "Fantastic story!" "Outstanding story!"
"I'm for it!" "I'm even more for it!" "Nobody is more for it than me!"
"You're great!" "You're the greatest!" "You're G*D!"

8-/


[ Parent ]
Dissenting opinion (4.00 / 1)
While I greatly appreciate Paul's postings, I don't find this kind of discussion either very useful or relevant. And I say that as an academic who has spent pretty much my entire life around academics-so my reaction is not due to a lack of appreciation for scholarship and abstract models.

These have their place, but not at the moment.  For there really is one issue on the table now: how can we bring to bear whatever resources we have at our disposal to prevent the bailout in its current form from moving forward?  

The answer to this question seems clear: we need to make use of whatever influence we have, individually and collectively to  pick up from where we left off on Thursday bringing as many people out on the streets as possible.

Anything short of a massive public display of opposition will result in a minimally diluted variant of Paulson's original proposal getting passed into law.

Our responsibility now is to try to act not to navel gaze and this posting comes dangerous close to navel gazing.  And I say that, to reiterate, with much respect and appreciation for Paul's contributions.


I appreciate your view, however (4.00 / 1)
Your view has an implicit judgment: the bailout is wrong.  It seems to me that what scholars should be doing is investigating the merits of the proposals and weighing them against the real problems we face.  That fact, for some reason, was not addressed in your response.  You immediately accepted as fact that the bailout is wrong.

I do not know if it is wrong or right, but I do know that a rush to judgment is fraught with risks: whether the rush is to accepting or denying the bailout.  

Much more work needs to be done.  Slow this process down...and do due diligence.


[ Parent ]
Common Ground (4.00 / 1)
Good.

We agree that the proposal should not be rushed through the Congress without "due diligence."

Thus, you are calling your friends and neighbors to join you in picketing your congressional reps office tomorrow, I take it.

Excellent.


[ Parent ]
I am indeed talking with and (4.00 / 1)
calling upon people to oppose this bailout.  I do not agree with it.  I think it creates incentives for mediocrity and rewards those who have failed to live up to the trust of their positions.  I must say, however, that I am in a minority, both at home in my community, and here in this forum.  But this is important--and it must be resisted for the right reasons, with the hope of directing attention to areas of investigation and formulation that will lead toward a real, workable plan.

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
You resist it because it won't work and will do that while being very expensive. Reasons aren't that important as regards the end result.

If a good alternative emerges, you support that, but there's no obligation to actually come up with and write that better bill yourself. Negative analysis is still analysis and still valuable.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Sorry..., you lost me... (0.00 / 0)
I have no idea what you are saying.

But I do know that I am so unpopular that I have been banned four times tonight, and I have had to find a way to communicate on this forum.  I guess that says a lot about this site's view of freedom, and suppression, of speech.


[ Parent ]
Or about its view of your comments (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
A perhaps naive question (4.00 / 1)
I watch CSPAN's Washington Journal every day, on my PVR. And as anyone who has as well this past week, I've noticed that an awful lot of callers on the GOP or Indie lines are repeating the same exact RW talking points about how this financial meltdown is the fault of:

--ACORN (which is also allegedly behind massive "voter fraud")

--Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, BEFORE Dems took over congress, by having allegedly singlehandedly blocked oversight regulatation that the GOP desperately tried to pass

--Mortgage reform laws that were passed during the Carter and Clinton administrations that forced bankers to lend to unqualified black and illegal alien home buyers

--Blacks and illegal aliens (aka Latinos, whether citizens or legal aliens or not)

And so on. You get the picture. They all say the SAME EXACT THING, and it's all 100% nonsense. I get what they're trying to do here--win over dumb low-information voters to convince them to vote McCain and Repub. My question is why CSPAN is allowing this. These aren't just a couple of calls here and there. We're talking nearly every GOP, and some Indie callers, so this is obviously being coordinated via blast emails and RW talk shows. And CSPAN knows this, and yet is allowing it. Is CSPAN effectively, if not deliberately, an arm of the RWNM? The hosts make no attempt to refute or challenge these lies, nor even ask the callers to back them up with facts. Nor are they implementing their informal "no shilling" rule. They're letting them through, while at the same time cutting off left-leaning callers who complain about the GOP and their corrupt and incompetent governance.

What gives? Is Brian Lamb the RW shill that I've long suspected he was?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Beats Me! (0.00 / 0)
Don't know much about CSPAN.  What does Media Matters say?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
I don't check it out as often as I should. But I'm sure that MRC and AIM love it, seeing as how often they have their ilk on. Heritage, AEI and Cato rule on CSPAN.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half" (4.00 / 1)
That's what Robber-Baron extraordinaire Jay Gould said during the Gilded Age, and that's what's behind the reactionary rap about ACORN and red-lining and CRA.

It's wrong of them to try to do this, but if American workers didn't buy into racism and red-baiting and sexism, the bosses wouldn't keep going to this particular well.

On complexity and left-populism:  couldn't you construct an inverse list?  Say, if you asked about fundamentalist preachers and the wealthy, I think you'd find that liberalism correlated to "opposition to power-sharing."  And who knew that World B. Free was a sociologist in the late 1960s?


World B. Free Was His Love Child (4.00 / 1)
On complexity and left-populism:  couldn't you construct an inverse list?  Say, if you asked about fundamentalist preachers and the wealthy, I think you'd find that liberalism correlated to "opposition to power-sharing."

I'm not clear exactly what you're saying here, but I get the gist.  And the answer is, really, that these are quite natural sorts of groupings to come up with, and the groups involved are ones that have relatively little power in our society.  (Blacks at the time only had, like, maybe 3-4 Represetnatives in the House.)

Thus, while you might be able to find some sort of inverse correlation over whether big business had to much power in the US, it's pretty hard to argue that they don't, given the fact that as I type this I am breathing air that's polluted by shipping companies working for the likes of Walmart, and that several thousand people a year die for their benefit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It seemed to me that folks on our side of American politics (0.00 / 0)
are also likely to want to exclude various groups.  Now, like you, I happen to think that bosses and the wealthy do, objectively, have too much power.  But, then, my stepfather-in-law thinks blacks and feminazis have too much.  That's why I'm here, and he's watching Fox.

I just wonder whether the difference isn't whether you oppose sharing power, but whom specifically you oppose sharing power with.  I agree that King had a very sophisticated and different view of this, but it's quite likely that the people participating in the Movement had a much more "black-white" (no pun intended) view of things than MLK did.

Lastly, you're not serious about World B Free, are you?  Next, you're gonna tell me that Bernard King's dad was...


[ Parent ]
What's Not To Love About World B. Free??? (4.00 / 1)
All groups tend to feel more comfortable and trusting of group members than non-group members.  But groups very quite widely in their willingness to interact with and accept outsiders, both invididually and as groups.  And this is, in fact, reflected both in ideological differences, and in attitudinal differences.

The very essence of SDO--which is strongly correlated with political conservatism--is a strong belief in the importance of dominating other groups.  For example, it involves agreeing with statements like these:

# Some groups of people are simply inferior to other groups.
# In getting what you want, it is sometimes necessary to use force against other groups.
# It's OK if some groups have more of a chance in life than others.
# To get ahead in life, it is sometimes necessary to step on other groups.
# If certain groups stayed in their place, we would have fewer problems.
# It's probably a good thing that certain groups are at the top and other groups are at the bottom.
# Inferior groups should stay in their place.
# Sometimes other groups must be kept in their place.

And disagreeing with these:

# It would be good if groups could be equal.
# Group equality should be our ideal.
# All groups should be given an equal chance in life.
# We should do what we can to equalize conditions for different groups.
# Increased social equality.
# We would have fewer problems if we treated people more equally.
# We should strive to make incomes as equal as possible.
# No group should dominate in society.

So, while there are doubtless all kinds of individual exceptions, as a group, conservatives tend to agree with the idea of keeping others down, while liberals do not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Nothing's wrong with World!! (0.00 / 0)
I grew up in the Bay Area, and remember his time on the Warriors.

As to SDO -- and I've never read the work you sited, and this is the first I've heard of the term -- it seems to me to use "group" in a very particular way.  Does it mean "demographic group based on ethnicity/gender/heritage"?  Because if group also includes class-based definitions, then it changes things.  Bosses do, in fact, need to be kept down, to prevent them from ruining society, and I think of them as a "group".  Ordinary, working people, should have a dominant role in society (whether that means they should "dominate" might depend on the meaning of that word).

So yeah, to the extent that SDO is the ideology that Jay Gould was looking for and confident he could exploit, that's definitely very reactionary and also, unfortunately, very American, IMHO.  


[ Parent ]
"Group" Means What People Take It To Mean (0.00 / 0)
In measuring SDO with the scale based on questions like those above, the methodology is very open-ended.  People aren't told what's meant by "group."  The idea is to get at people's deepest orientation possible.  So whatever they identify as a "group" is part of that deep orientation.  It's not defined for them.

But the theory of social dominance, which looks at empirical evidence from around the world, defines groups in terms of age, gender and whatever is socially defined.  That's because age and gender hierarchies have been found to be virtually universal, while subordinate groups are defined in a wide variety of ways--usually in terms of language, skin color, culture, etc.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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