What is ideological struggle?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 16:00


What is ideological struggle?

In Chris's diary, "A Rare Moment", he noted:

When I was in college, I was obsessed with the first third of the twentieth century. It wasn't because I thought things were better back then-far from it. However, they did at least seem exciting and full of possibility: monarchists, communists, fascists, imperialists, anti-colonialist nationalism, and civil rights movements operated simultaneously in what was certainly the most diverse ideological mix the world has ever seen (the literature and art wasn't bad, either). Compared to the incredibly boring and corporate loving 1990's, it certainly was alluring.

Suddenly, he goes on, there are signs that we may be in for a bit of an ideological shakeup.  Which raises the questions: what is ideological struggle, anyways?  A minimalist answer, I think is fairly simple: it's a struggle over what sort of model to use in organizing society.  Of course, in practice it gets rather messy, since each different model comes with its own set of assumptions that make side-by-side comparisons difficult, if not impossible.  In his classic work, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Thomas Kuhn advanced an historical argument that even in the refined rationalist realm of science, fundamental shifts from one model to another were in some sense trans-rational--competing models were incommensurable with one another, since they entailed different definitional frameworks that precluded straight-forward comparisons.  Loosely speaking, we could think of them comprising different quotient spaces, dividing the world up in fundamentally different ways, as I discussed in my earlier diary, "Quotient Spaces In Politics".

Beyond the scientific realm, it gets much worse. For a true believer in the early-modern ideology of the divine right of kings, for example, anyone questioning the ideology was cast as an agent of Satan.  That certainly puts a crimp in your attempts at comparative ideology.  And, really, that's the way that most ideological struggle is carried out: true believers in one ideology cast all others as agents of evil, end of story.  It's not about an intellectual exercise in model-building and testing, it's about quasi-religious belief.  In a way, though, it's both.  One key to understanding the past 40 years of American politics is that conservatives understand this in their bones, while liberals understand it not at all.

Paul Rosenberg :: What is ideological struggle?
My purpose here is to sketch out a plausible meta-model, a way of thinking about how the varying different ideological models relate to one another--and where we stand today.  I want to begin with a discussion of Kuhn and his ideas, since science presents us with a relatively simple example, constrained as it is by a set of shared norms and purposes that cannot be assumed when dealing with questions of how human society as a whole should be organized.

Kuhn

Kuhn's basic insight was derived from his own personal shock and perplexity, as a physics grad student teaching history of physics.  Instead of the relatively linear march of progress that he had assumed, he was dumbfounded to discover that the history of physics was much more akin to a drunkard's walk--or at best the back-and-forth tacking of a sailboat against a strong headwind.  Rather than straightforward progress in a single direction, he found that the very terms in which progress was defined underwent fundamental changes.  This troubled Kuhn so deeply that it lead him to abandon physics itself in a quest to understand the thinking that went into it, as well as other sciences.

For Kuhn, this lead to a focus on the central role of models and the systems of implicit assumptions and ways of seeing things that came along with them.  He adopted the word "paradigm" to describe what he was talking about, and the term quickly became a staple of popular discourse, at the same time that establishment philosophers of science pounced on it, and virtually squelched any sort of healthy intellectual debate.

That establishment revolved around philosopher Karl Popper, and it was driven by an irrational fear that sprang from Kuhn's claims that paradigms were incommensurable with one another.  If this were true, Popper's crowd concluded, that meant a retreat to pre-modern irrationalism, an abandonment of all reason.  This could not be tolerated, and thus Kuhn had to be wrong, regardless of how much his work was based on an empirical study of scientific history.

There was, of course, another alternative that Popper's crowd missed, and that Kuhn himself was none to clear on, either: and that is simply that model-specific rationality is not the be all and end all of human reason.  Model comparison matters, too, even if it can't necessarily be rendered into neutral terms. Indeed, the history of science--and mathematics, too--turns out to be full of examples in which battles fought out in one generation come to be seen very differently in another generation.  What appear to be incommensurable approaches at one point in time are not always so, and even if they are, this need not be the end of the world.

The reason for this is simple: when paradigms first clash, each model comes with its own set of assumptions, which do not share a common frame of reference.  However, with time, new people enter the field, and for at least some of them, the rival paradigms are not all-encompassing worldviews.  Rather, they are simply seen as different ways of solving different sorts of problems.  Kuhn's attention wasn't drawn to such situations, because they weren't so dramatically contrary to his earlier intuition that saw physics in terms of an unproblematic forward march.

Yet, it's rather striking that physics today involves at least three technically "incommensurate" paradigms: classical "Newtonian" physics, relativistic "Einsteinian" physics, and probabilistic quantum-mechanical physics.  No one believes that Newtonian physics is "true" in the sense of being an accurate and complete description of the physical laws of the universe.  And yet, it remains so elegantly simple, and powerful that it adequately describes a wide range of phenomena, and even reveals new intellectual challenges.  This is quite different from other theories, such as geocentric theories about the organization of the cosmos, whose fruitfulness in generating new questions and new insights simply dies away.

The Kuhnian Conclusion--And Beyond To Political Ideology

The point here is that both Kuhn and his establishment critics were far too narrowly focused on trying to model and understand rational processes on a very short time-frame--at least compared to the longer sweep of human history.  It is as if they were hell-bent on comparing things within a time-frame--or quotient space, if you will--of a single day, when the natural time-frame for processes involved to complete themselves required a full year.   It was not just premature for one side or the other to make claims about commensurability or intelligibility.  The time-frame was too cramped to even assess if those terms were properly understood within the framework of a more extended quotient space.

If this sort of profound confusion was possible in the relatively rigorous world of scientific reasoning, then how much more true might it be in the wider world of ideological struggles?  The proof of whether different ideologies must clash, or may co-exist cannot be found in their initial encounters, such a perspective informs us.  It takes time to see how things will unfold.  One must take a longer and a broader view.

Indeed, the very essence of modern liberalism can be conceived as a means of dealing with this insight.  This was accomplished via two major lines of reasoning, both articulated in mature forms by British philosopher John Locke.  First was the principle of religious tolerance, separating civil and religious realms of authority.  The embrace of tolerance was initially almost entirely pragmatic, a response to religious warfare on a scale dwarfing what we've seen in Iraq since the US invasion, going on for decades.  Over time, however, it came to be seen not only as a positive value, but a principled one: no coerced conversion could possibly save ones soul, it was argued, so even forced conversion to the true faith--whatever that might be--was utterly futile. Second, was the shift in legitimizing government, from a top-down religious argument that the state was ordained by God to a bottom-up secular argument that the state was an agreement of those governed.

Together, these principles allowed for a wide range of personal beliefs--religious at first, but over time ideological as well--treating all them on an equal footing.  By recasting them as matters of personal belief, without legitimate claim to any form of transcendent power, Lockean liberalism--at least in theory--created the conditions for otherwise incommensurable beliefs to nonetheless coexist with one another, much like Newtonian, Einsteinian and quantum physics.  The foundation for doing was individual conscience (the seeds, at least of Robert Kegan's Level 4 "self-authorship," see previous diary, and below).

But, of course, that "in theory" part is crucial, since it didn't always--or ever, really--work out that way.  And yet, it remained as an ideal that people returned to, in different ways, again and again and again.

The Early 20th Century Era of Ideological Struggle

The period that Chris alluded to in his post saw tremendous ideological struggle in large part because liberalism as I have described it had both obviously failed in some places, and never taken hold in others.  The obvious failure could be seen in Britain, where its economicc promise in a bastardized form of Adam Smith's philosophy did not produce broad wealth, but Dickensian suffering instead.  (The result, by the late 19th Century, was the birth of New Liberalism, the British pre-cursor of American New Deal liberalism.) Elsewhere, even the imperfect British model was an impossible dream.  That being the case, other dreams competed with it for allegiance of hearts and minds.  Some looking back into funhouse mirror landscapes of an imaginary past, others looking forward with equally uncertain vision.  This was the period Chris wrote about, in which each ideology had its own incommensurable set of assumptions to fall back on.

The Welfare State Consensus

When the smoke cleared at the end of WWII, there was a consensus of sorts in the Western world, which basically revolved around the welfare state.  I say, "of sorts," because there were clearly different sorts of welfare state.  But generally there was an agreement on a framework of individual social, political and civil rights--and even, outside the US, economic rights as well.  This was reflected in the text of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a document deeply indebted to the advocacy of Eleanor Roosevelt.  Guarantees of political rights alone came to be seen as insufficient to ensure the autonomy of individuals necessary for self-government--and, in the end, for the general well-being of all humanity.  Rather, social, economic, civil and political rights were all seen as complexly interrelated with one another.

This consensus was driven by at least three main factors.  First was the historical struggles for human freedom and dignity that radicals and liberals had been waging for centuries in various different forms.  Second was the catastrophic history of the previous few decades, highlighted by the two world wars, the Great Depression and the Holocaust.  Third was the political challenge of the Soviet Union, with its powerful appeal to downtrodden workers, bolstered by the fact that socialists and communists had universally been in the vanguard of those fighting against fascism, before as well as during WWII.

As Western welfare states flourished, internal freedoms grew, and Soviet Union grew increasingly stodgy, bureaucratic and self-evidently repressive, the power of this third factor began to recede.  So long as America was wracked with internal struggles--particularly over racism and the Vietnam War--the increasing feebleness of the Soviet example was largely obscured.  However, rather ironically, once the conservative establishment lost those battles, and America no longer appeared as repressive as it had been, Soviet contradictions loomed larger than ever.  While Western progressive social movements inspired a generation of like-minded Eastern Europeans, eventually leading to the collapse of the Soviet block, Western elites began growing increasingly conservative.

Yet, the paths taken were Byzantine in their complexity.  Ronald Reagan, for example, entered office amidst talk about "fighting and winning a nuclear war," which sparked a massive anti-nuclear weapons movement so threatening that Reagan was forced to out-flank it with his "Star Wars" missile-defense fantasy.  The exposure of his arms-for-hostages dealing with Iran to support the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua furthered weakened him, and he moved dramatically to the left to embrace Gorbachov, even coming close to the abolition of nuclear weapons.  Still, once it was all said and done, a fantastically simplified--and utterly false--history was constructed, in which free market capitalism (which never existed) defeated Soviet communism (which also never existed).  Under this false narrative capitalism, "free markets" and democracy were all conflated as one.

Post-Cold War Shake-Up: Jihad vs. McWorld w/ Democracy M.I.A.

Thus, while the Cold War era began with a broadly conceived single ideology in place--welfare state liberalism that allowed for enormous national and cultural variations--it ended with the dominance of a sort of funhouse mirror reflection, the narrowly conceived single ideology dubbed "neoliberalism" in Latin America, which subsummed everything to the values of the market, a drastically impoverished vision compared to the one enunciated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.  This dominance was not absolute, however.  Indeed, political philosopher Benjamin Barber captured the essence of a more complex dynamic in a series of books, most fully articulated in Jihad vs. McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism Are Reshaping the World, originally published in 1995.  In an Atlantic Monthly article of the same name, three years earlier, he laid out his basic argument:

The two axial principles of our age--tribalism and globalism--clash at every point except one: they may both be threatening to democracy

by Benjamin R. Barber
Jihad vs. McWorld

Just beyond the horizon of current events lie two possible political futures--both bleak, neither democratic. The first is a retribalization of large swaths of humankind by war and bloodshed: a threatened Lebanonization of national states in which culture is pitted against culture, people against people, tribe against tribe--a Jihad in the name of a hundred narrowly conceived faiths against every kind of interdependence, every kind of artificial social cooperation and civic mutuality. The second is being borne in on us by the onrush of economic and ecological forces that demand integration and uniformity and that mesmerize the world with fast music, fast computers, and fast food--with MTV, Macintosh, and McDonald's, pressing nations into one commercially homogenous global network: one McWorld tied together by technology, ecology, communications, and commerce. The planet is falling precipitantly apart AND coming reluctantly together at the very same moment.

These two tendencies are sometimes visible in the same countries at the same instant: thus Yugoslavia, clamoring just recently to join the New Europe, is exploding into fragments; India is trying to live up to its reputation as the world's largest integral democracy while powerful new fundamentalist parties like the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, along with nationalist assassins, are imperiling its hard-won unity. States are breaking up or joining up: the Soviet Union has disappeared almost overnight, its parts forming new unions with one another or with like-minded nationalities in neighboring states. The old interwar national state based on territory and political sovereignty looks to be a mere transitional development.

The tendencies of what I am here calling the forces of Jihad and the forces of McWorld operate with equal strength in opposite directions, the one driven by parochial hatreds, the other by universalizing markets, the one re-creating ancient subnational and ethnic borders from within, the other making national borders porous from without. They have one thing in common: neither offers much hope to citizens looking for practical ways to govern themselves democratically. If the global future is to pit Jihad's centrifugal whirlwind against McWorld's centripetal black hole, the outcome is unlikely to be democratic--or so I will argue.

Right now, Barber's three-way template captures the essence of our options.  There are many different ethno-religious factions whose ideologies vie with one another, but they are all variants on the same basic ideological mapping.  Likewise, there are different globalizing visions--every would-be Fortune 500 company has one of its very own.  And, of course, there are a plethora of different political parties, movements, organizations, and what-have-you trying to organize in the space of democratic civil societies.  But Barber has, I would argue, captured the essence of the three main options we face, the three main types of quotient space for mapping the world, and gluing it together.  And what has happened now, with the purported financial emergency we are now dealing with, is that we have witnessed the inherent fragility of McWorld, just as 9/11 showed us the inherent violence of Jihad.  Both were just small tastes of the destruction they can bring about.

It's up to us to realize that a much more robust model of democracy--opposed to both Jihad and McWorld--is our only road to salvation.  It does not mean rejecting religion, ethnic identity or roots in the past on the one hand or business, technology or progress on the other.  But it does mean rejecting an authoritarian submission to claims about (or in the name of) the inexorable logic of either alternative.  We must, individually and collectively, debate, discern, and negotiate our futures.  Democracy is not merely our birthright, it is our obligation, our salvation and the only means of doing what each generation must: passing down to our children a livable world that they, in turn, can make their own.

Kuhn and Barber

So how do the options described by Barber relate to what I wrote earlier about Kuhn?  And how does the call to democracy relate?

The answer to the first question is perhaps best grasped through another book Barber wrote, a slim volume, A Place for Us: How to Make Society Civil and Democracy Strong.  In it, Barber describes three different models of civil society.  One, corresponding to Jihad, is basically a social conservative's vision, composed of a  traditional organizations like the church, in which individuals are embedded with little personal agency.  A second, corresponding to McWorld, is basically a libertarian's vision, composed of discrete individuals and private enterprises.  A third, corresponding to Barber's own concept of "strong democracy" is primarily composed of voluntary associations, organizations created by people to do things that they cannot do alone, yet which they do not wish to have government do for them.  There is room in this third alternative for traditional organizations like the church, as well as for unaffiliated individuals.  It does not demand the conformity of social conservatives or libertarians.  They can have their spaces as well--but they cannot force all the rest of us to live in their worlds.

How does this relate to Kuhn?  Simple: each of these three models of civil society relates to a basic model of the self, at different developmental stages, as described by Robert Kegan in the following chart (briefly explained below):

Kegan's Subject/Object Schema of Cognitive Development
StageWe Are:
Subject
(structure of knowing)
We Have:
Object
(content of knowing)
Underlying Structure
1Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
Movement


Sensation
2Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
3
Traditionalism
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship


Inner states
Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Needs, Peferences
4
Modernism
Abstract Systems

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship

Inner states
Subjectivity
Self-consciousness
5
Post-
Modernism
Dialectical

INTER-
INSTITUTIONAL

Self-transformation
Abstract Systems
Ideology

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Self-regulation
Self-formation

At each stage, the background/subject/context of consciousness of the earlier stage shifts to become the foreground/object/content of consciousness.  And thus, the implicit model of the how the world is structured--along with everything in it, including people--changes as well. The libertarian/McWorld model corresponds with level 2, the social conservative/Jihad model corresponds with level 3, and the strong democracy model corresponds with level 4... or even level 5.

Operating at levels 2 or 3, we are unable to stand outside the structures we take for granted as defining our world for us.  This is still true at levels 4 and 5, of course, because it is always true--we are always embedded in something larger than us that we cannot grasp, cannot see from outside--and these will continue to inform and shape our ideologies.  But at levels 4 and above, these limitations are far less constraining on us.  Indeed, that is precisely the problem for those functioning at levels 2 and 3, the world as seen from levels 4 and 5 is utterly bewildering.  This is reflected in the title of Kegan's book where he develops his ideas: Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life.  

This leads back to the second question I began this section with: How does the call to democracy relate to all this?  The answer, for me, is that we need a much deeper engagement in the nature of democracy than we have previously had.  We absolutely need prophylactics against the deleterious effects of Jihad and McWorld, but we also need a much deeper understanding and appreciation of how to enrich the democratic process, how to make it more responsive, more efficacious, more inclusive, more pragmatic, and at the same time, more visionary.  Not to mention, more fun.

This revolves around what Kegan refers to as "self-authorship" as a defining characteristic of Level 4.  It is self-authorship that conveys the power for joining together to create new voluntary organizations and institutions that can meet our collective needs in ways that individuals cannot do directly on their own, and that governments should not do, because agency for them properly should be kept in the civic realm.  The much more fluid nature of Level 4's quotient space--its way of gluing the world together--allows far more give and take so that ideological struggle need not be violent, much less deadly. Indeed, it could ultimately come to be seen as our species collective struggle to enter into true adulthood.


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Some questions (4.00 / 2)
That was pretty complex, Paul. To me, the essence of what you are saying is summed up in this: "A much more robust model of democracy--opposed to both Jihad and McWorld--is our only road to salvation. It does not mean rejecting religion, ethnic identity, or roots in the past on the one hand or business, technology, or progress on the other. But it does mean rejecting an authoritarian submission to claims about (or in the name of) the inexorable logic of either alternative."  

Some questions:
Is democracy an ideology or a set of practices, or both? Self-authorship goes back to Emerson, and is deeply rooted in the American vision.

With the economic crisis, must we not at least seriously consider going back to the welfare state, to Keynesianism, to a belief that we are all in this together (albeit in more globalized circumstances?) I think it's time to study the 1930s, to popularize the history and the lessons. Maybe that's something Open Left could do in a succinct way.

Isn't Obama's postpartisan approach in some sense a good fit with what the times demand (we're all in this together)?      

Don't we need both a postpartisan approach and a more "ideological" commitment to democracy and to social and economic democracy?

Can you boil this post down more succinctly so that more people would read it?
 


These Are All Good Questions (4.00 / 1)
I'll try to answer succinctly, otherwise a whole new diary will ensue.

(1) I think that democracy is both an ideology and a set of practices, but its ideological content is relatively weak unless further specified, as Barber does in his work on "strong democracy," which in effect expands the set of practices beyond the purely electoral realm.  (1a) The Transcendentalists are a very important part of the heritage we need to draw on.  Not just Emerson & self-authorship, but also Thoreau & civil disobedience.

(2) I think the welfare state is absolutely vital, but needs to be expanded, supplemented and updated.  Universal health care is just one aspects of what's needed now.  And not just a "plan" but the actual care itself.

(3) Obama's "post-partisanship" seems very much skewed toward the Washington consensus, which talks a good "we're all in this together" game from time to time, but has a funny way of showing it when it comes to passing bills & passing out dollars.  We need the exact opposite I would argue--a post-partisanship of the Washington outsiders.

(4)

Don't we need both a postpartisan approach and a more "ideological" commitment to democracy and to social and economic democracy?

How would that work, exactly?  This isn't a taunt.  I'm curious to hear what you have in mind.

(5)

Can you boil this post down more succinctly so that more people would read it?

This is a first pass.  Whether I try to rewrite it, or rework it into something else, I can't say.  But I'm trying to get these ideas out into a public forum where I can get feedback about the content, as well as seeing how I might say things in a less dense sort of way.  Your qeustions have already been helpful on first glance in moving things along for me.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Occam's razor vs. "dumbing down" (0.00 / 0)
   "Can you boil this post down more succinctly so that more people would read it?"
  I am in Mensa and I have a graduate degree, and I had a hard time following Rosenberg's article.
  I don't want to see this topic abandoned, or dumbed down. But I really hope that these important questions can be usefully simplified.

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
oops (0.00 / 0)
   How do I delete my own post? :(

Luke 12:48 "to whom much is given, of him shall much be required". Would Jesus want progressive taxation, or regressive taxation?

[ Parent ]
Dear Lord (4.00 / 3)
With regards to the substance of the article, I struggled to find a conclusion.  Or rather, I found several conclusions, none of which required talking about all three of the thinkers you mention.  It is hard to know what point you are getting at, for reasons I will mention shortly.  It might be nothing more than that we need to be committed to democracy, and that it is the only acceptable option, but I fail to see how the long post you created amounts to an argument for that conclusion, or how it even amounts to an argument against the other options.

As for the other options, can you give us a non Fukuyama type reason to think that socialism is no longer an option (unless you and Barber treat socialism as one way to organize a democracy)?  What you have written suggests that it is not on the table because the Soviet Union failed, and that is quite absurd.

So sure democracy is good.  And sure defenses of the claim that it is good are worthwhile.  But when you say nothing about the nature of democracy, you leave the claim 'democracy is good' so empty that everyone, the 'McWorld' people included, can agree.  We need a substantive account of democracy to both defend it, and to make that defense consequential.  Maybe Barber has that.  I haven't read the book.  But this post certainly doesn't have it.

The rest of this is kind of snarky, and it is quite long.  So don't read if you don't like that.

As an academic philosopher (I am not sure whether I can count as establishment though, being rather young and unaccomplished) let me say that this was quite depressing to read.  When academic philosophers struggle to come up with a reason to think what we do is useful (other than 'everyone should be interested in these questions!') we normally say something like 'we want to help smart people think and write clearly'.  That is the principle I use in teaching class.  It doesn't matter so much if people know what Kant thought (unless they are going to quote him that is), but it does matter that they learn not to get trapped in jargon and to say what they mean clearly so a real debate can happen.

Paul Rosenberg is a smart person.  But to the extent that academic philosophy can do what it should be aiming to do, Rosenberg is in real need of it.  This is a mess.  It will probably be obvious to everyone how much unexplained jargon there is floating around in this post, and you might take the low number of comments on the post to show that most people read it but did not understand it.  People need to be told what a 'common frame of reference' is before they can evaluate claims in which the term appears.  I do philosophy for a living and it is not immediately clear to me what you mean by it.  It could mean a great number of things.  But I will trust that it is clear that the stylistic vices of the post get in the way of it making the substantive points it wants to make.

Then there are the really objectionable parts:

at the same time that establishment philosophers of science pounced on it, and virtually squelched any sort of healthy intellectual debate.

Really?  There hasn't been any healthy intellectual debate about Kuhn?  I wonder what all those journal articles and bookes about him are?  I mean after all Kuhn was for years one of the cheif topics in philosophy of science, and so there was plenty of intellectual debate.  I wonder what makes you think it was unhealthy?  The fact that after years of debate the philosophy of science community for the most part landed on the opposite side of Kuhn?  

It might be that you are not quite aware of all the debate that has gone one.  This is suggested by:

That establishment revolved around philosopher Karl Popper, and it was driven by an irrational fear that sprang from Kuhn's claims that paradigms were incommensurable with one another.  If this were true, Popper's crowd concluded, that meant a retreat to pre-modern irrationalism, an abandonment of all reason.  This could not be tolerated, and thus Kuhn had to be wrong, regardless of how much his work was based on an empirical study of scientific history.

Two things.  One, this is quite unfair to Popper, and it is quite hard to be unfair to Popper.  The response amounted to more than this.  I don't know whether you actually believe this or whether you take yourself to be a partisan for Kuhn and so feel the need to be petty.  It would be rather fitting I suppose.  Popper himself behaved in the exact same way ('The Open Society and Its Enemies' is one long travesty of historical scholarship.  I don't know how to evaluate Popper's account of Hegel, but his attempts at presenting Plato and Marx were horrific.), but that doesn't make it any more intellectually honest to treat him the same way.

Two, there is no sense in which Popper is representative of the other side of the debate.  Popper is not taken that seriously in contemporary philosophy of science.  He is talked about in undergraduate classes, but only to show how he is wrong in his central claims (an amazingly easy thing to do it turns out).  Basically I wonder whether someone who thought Popper was representative of where philosophy of science is right now has ever read any contemporary philosophy of science, or taken a class from someone who publishes in the field.  

The reason I wonder this is from my experiences as an undergraduate.  I double majored in political science and philosophy.  Neither was terribly satisfactory on its own.  Philosophy could seem a bit irrelevant at times.  But at least I never encountered philosophers brazenly insulting other fields while seeming to have no knowledge of what goes on in them.  And I found this quite a bit in my political science department.  I found it quite common for political scientists who had never taken any but introductory classes in philosphy to be teaching the political philosophy course the department offered, and making insulting little comments about philosophy which betrayed nothing but ignorance.  (They did something similar to economists as well).  So I wonder whether this account you give of philosophy science comes from experience with philosophy of science, or whether, like me, you were saddled with professors who liked to gripe about things they didn't know much about.

Earlier I said it was not so important to know what a particular author said, unless you attempt to attribute claims to him or her.  So we get this little nugget.

This was accomplished via two major lines of reasoning, both articulated in mature forms by British philosopher John Locke...Second, was the shift in legitimizing government, from a top-down religious argument that the state was ordained by God to a bottom-up secular argument that the state was an agreement of those governed.

So this is just wrong.  About Locke that is.  Later thinkers in the liberal tradition did accept something like this (Rousseau and Kant did.  Mill did.  So did almost everyone after them), but Locke certainly did not.  The question faced by any social contract theorist like Locke is, 'Why should people respect the initial contract, the one that established government/society?'  After Locke it was most common to say that while it is useful to think of society as governed by a contract, such a contract need never actually have been explicitly made.  Rawls is the best example of a social contract theorist who treats the contract as entirely hypothetical.  Locke gave no sign of accepting this though, at least none that I am aware of.  For Locke the laws draw their legitimacy from that initial contract, and so he has to say what it is about that contract that makes it binding.  And for Locke the answer is 'Natural Law'.  And what is 'Natural Law' in Locke's eyes?  You guessed it, the law laid down by God.  Locke, in the Second Treatise of Government, is not an example of a liberal who gives liberalism a secular foundation.

So like I said, snarky.  I get that way when people disparage my field while providing no evidence backing up their claims.  There is plenty to critisize in academic philosophy.  I know of no other feild where it is so easy to make a career out of being obscure (Richard Rorty), or where so much ink is wasted on minor points when there are big issues to be discussed.  But we don't make the kinds of arguments you attribute to us.  I like openleft.  I particularly like your articles.  I would love it if I weren't talked down to.

And I would like less jargon.


Well, Let Me Just TRY To Explain... (4.00 / 1)
First off, it's been decades since I read the Second Treatise, and I've read much more referring back to it in recent years, so I'll take your objection as a signal I should go back and read it again myself.

Second, I don't think that socialism isn't an option in any sort of philosophical sense.  In fact, I am a socialist, when it gets down to philosophy.  But I'm trying to deal with historical developments, and there are good historical (not philosophical) reasons that socialism has gotten a bad name, which anyone who cares about socialism should be willing to face and deal with.

Third, the squealching of healthy debate around Kuhn I experienced first-hand, as I was a sometimes philosophy major back in the 1970s, and was utterly appalled at the intenesity of the stupidity I encountered.  You're quite right that I haven't read in the field in ages, but I read Kuhn and his critics in real time, and then later took classes, hoping to thrash things out, but ony becoming more and more frustrated at how muddled things were.

One thing that became incredibly clear was that virtually no one was capable of understanding what anyone else from a different circle was saying, and sometimes folks were clearly surprised by someone else explaining to them what they were saying. (This was actually a good thing, relatively speaking!)

If things have gotten much better in the field, I'm quite glad to hear that, but this obviously happened long after the point in time when it would have been most helpful to the larger intellectual community.

Finally, two points, or counterpoints, as the case may be.

(1) Just because a field wanders into a state of chaos and incoherence--as philosophy of science quite clear did in the 1960s, and for some time thereafter--does not mean that it will always remain so.  I just didn't feel like I wanted to be part of the cleanup crew.  But I didn't mean to disparage the field as a whole just because it had been so messed up at that time.

I'm sorry to have carelessly given a contrary impression.  In fact, the more messed up that a field gets, the more credit is due to those who get it straightened out again.

(2) This is clearly not a polished piece.  It's a throw-out-some-thoughts kind of piece.  And I take it for granted that I can't possibly exlain everything clearly in writing such a piece, as it would need so much introductory prep work that I'd never get to the main argument.  This is particular true since it's not intended for a specific audience whose specialized knowledge I can count on.  The way to clear up confusions that necessarily can't be gotten rid of in advance is to be open to responding to comments.  That's the pragmatic bargain of blog posting like this.  While I appreciate questions from you as well as anyone else, I don't think that academic philosophy necessarily has anything privileged to teach on that account. But I'm open to being proven wrong.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
I think the main problem is that I didn't realize the nature of the post.  If I had waited a few minutes to make my comment I would have seen in your first comment that you meant it to just be trying some stuff out.  Which is a perfectly fine thing to do.  I think I got confused because I read so many papers presented as finished work that have this kind of jumbled aspect.  But as a working draft jumbled is no problem.  Also if I had known some of your personal history I could have made sense of your claims about philosophy.  It is true that philosophy of science experienced a rather significant change in the 70s.  In the 60s the field was still rather new as a subdiscipline and you did have to deal with near hacks like Popper.

I still wonder what real work Kuhn is going to do for you.  It seems to me that in arguing for democracy where this is supposed to be opposed to some other political conceptual schemes, Kuhn's position makes it harder to level criticisms at the opponents or say why democracy is better.  After all, you get some social science results which tend to show that certain 'traditionalist' ways of organizing social relations lead to unhealthy results, and the conservatives simply say that the conceptual scheme underlying contemporary social science is not part of their framework or conceptual scheme.  It might be that this is a bastardization of Kuhn, but in opening up the anti-realist box you make this kind of rhetoric possible.


[ Parent ]
Thank You! (0.00 / 0)
I appreciate your comments as well as your understanding.

What you just said about Kuhn relates back to part of what motivated me, which I didn't make explicit.  I think that the misdirected criticism aimed at him interefered with what I would regard as a the healthy development of his ideas.  As a result, they got very widely disseminated in forms that were increasingly superficial and self-serving.  It's not that I think his work was beyond criticism, but that it got the wrong sort of criticism.

Indeed, I think that much more useful book, published almost simultaneously, provided a lot more insight that ought to have become part of the same cultural converstation.  I'm refering to The Psychology of Science: A Reconnaissance by Abraham Maslow, which has important continuities with the work of William James as he moved from psychology to philosophy.

Basically, the argument here is that science itself can be studied scientifically--indeed it has to be studied that way.  And, of course, that's not at all the sort of place that the conservatives you speak of want to go.  But it is where Kuhns work would naturally lead, if he'd gotten the right sort of critical reception.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
contemporary philosophy of science (0.00 / 0)
Belatedly and somewhat off topic, this is a request for what reading you might recommend to familiarize the layman with the current thinking in the philosophy of science.  I'm interested in something that fleshes out in an accessible way the critique of Popper to which you refer.  I'd be particularly interested in the status of the notion of falsifiability.

[ Parent ]
I'm almost tempted to troll-flag (4.00 / 1)
johnraymond's comment for saying, "Can't you boil this post down more succinctly?"  Not meaning to be offensive to Mr raymond, since his intent is obviously not hostile, but if this thesis gets much pithier, it will be undigestible.  You are covering broad sweeps of intellectual territory here, Paul.  I think you can either argue about the validity of particular ideologies, or you can defend a theory of the developmental stages of cognition, but probably the energy and scholarship necessary to do both would require a longer than average human life.

One thing I would caution you about is the teleological argument from your projected next stage of cognitive development to the validity of particular ideological features.  The temptation to do this kind of thing is almost overwhelming, since, if you have succeeded in perceiving the  dialectical "answer" to a lower-stage conflict, it seems obvious that the conflict itself can be skipped.  But since the dialectical "answer" is a result of the accidents of history as well as the pattern of expanding cognizance of the pattern, the "answer" which is perceived is only really there if the conflict has been substantially resolved.  

This is pretty fascinating stuff, not to mention extremely challenging.  You have my respect for having the chutzpah to take it on.  


Just a couple of points. (4.00 / 1)
Not relative to the main argument, but nonetheless, as I understand physics, quantum theory is inclusive, it includes within itself both Newtonian models and relativistic models. It is inclusive much like our current society, which includes within itself the religious and the secular models.

I'm not sure the current climate is as simple as classical libertarianism versus religious models versus modernism. I'll agree that libertarianism and religious systems represent paradigms and that modernism has largely incorporated both. However, it is a good point that progress is not linear but broken. Cromwell fought and ruled in the name of religious tolerance, something that was eliminated in the US very early as differing groups within the religious mindset obtained geographically separate areas of influence and proceeded to legislate the opposing views out of existence within the sphere of influence of their own group. We saw a return to tolerance in the founding fathers, but it was not absolute, there were elements within the founders who advocated for the old way of separate geographical areas. To a large extent, throughout US history up until the past 60 years or so the federal government stayed away from this area by insisting that federalism be tolerant but not enforcing tolerance on the local level, so that large chunks of the country still practiced the old coercive religious ways. Then there was Lincoln's attempt at establish a type of federalist religion, with the State as deity. That further clouds the issue.

As the population grew, the Fed found itself in the position of either enforcing tolerance or unleashing anarchy, and the resulting scrapes are what really alienates the religious community now. As it because clear that the federal union could no longer function as intended if religious enforcement was left in the hands of the local community, the Fed stepped in more and more and tried to force states to accept the greatest possible individual freedom in this area by outlawing local enforcement of coercive religious ideology. Reagan did his best to revert to the old ways, but was prevented from doing so by the courts.

So, we have a religious group that salivates at the thought of returning to the old style coercion, seemingly unaware of the war that will result as the differing communities turn on one another and all attempt to force compliance with their own doctrine.

The libertarian paradigm, unrestricted freedom for the individual in all possible ways, was proven to be flawed as early as the whiskey rebellions immediately after the Revolution. The proponents of this view, while supported to some degree by the founders, have lost time and again as it has become clear that no society can exist within this paradigm. The strongest will always prevail and enforce their rules on the majority. Our federal government was developed by trial and error, as society had to adapt to oppose both the religious paradigm and the libertarian paradigm.

So what do we have now? Modernism as a paradigmatic shift was intended to maximize individual freedom by imposing the fewest possible controls on individuals while attempting to allow as much expression of differences as possible. Both libertarian and religious individuals can exist within modernism. Neither will allow modernism to exist within itself, and nether will allow the practice of the other philosophy. Forced religious coercion allows no room for the dissent of libertarianism, and libertarianism will not allow religion to force it's values onto others.

So, I'm ready to agree that the current system, what we;ll refer to as progressive modernism, is a huge step forward, and that it maximizes individual freedom by balancing the opposing beliefs present within itself. The problem faced is convincing persons ignorant, or nearly so, of history, political thought, or reasoning ability of this fact.

That's where we are today. Our current society has given us the longest lifespan, the greatest number of persons not hungry, the healthiest population, the most diverse range of religious and philosophical opinions, the greatest freedom of the greatest number of people ever in human history. Any reversion to earlier paradigms will lessen most of those.

And therein lies the gist of the argument. Modernism is society based, libertarianism is individual based, religion is Other based. Modernism is made up as we go along in response to real problems, religion is forced coercion to 3000 year old ideas of society based on a herder nomadic and small agriculture way of life that just no longer exists. Libertarianism is based on a proven non-sustainable neo-Darwinian strongest takes all philosophy. What we as descendants of the founders have to do is add to those safeguards they built into the system, to keep our fragile experiment running. We can't force a paradigm shift onto those opposing it. All we can do is to try to make sure that basic liberties are protected,

Sorry about this long winded digression. Your excellent post forced me to use mental muscles I haven't used in years, and I wanted to add something if I could to your line of thought. Please just cancel this if it's so hideously off-topic as to warrant it.


Quantum Mechanics (4.00 / 2)
Not relative to the main argument, but nonetheless, as I understand physics, quantum theory is inclusive, it includes within itself both Newtonian models and relativistic models. It is inclusive much like our current society, which includes within itself the religious and the secular models.

No.  Or at least, not that anyone has shown.  Newtonian models were replaced by quantum mechanical and relativistic models, but QM and relativity are parallel, not built on top of one another.  Both models approximate to Newtonian physics in our slow, macro world, but neither approximates to the other.  In fact, it is not an exaggeration to claim that both QM and relativity cannot both be correct.

However, it is rare we need both models at the same time, so it isn't typically a big deal.  But black holes and the early universe require both at the same time; which we cannot currently do.

I will say, though, that most seem to assume that QM will beat out relativity when the two go head-to-head.  So your statement might be correct someday.


[ Parent ]
Or Maybe God STILL Hasn't Made Up Her Mind (4.00 / 1)
which way She's building the universe.

Just like a woman!

"Which physics should I wear on my outward form?  Relativity?  Or Qunatum Mechanics?"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thank you. (0.00 / 0)
My training is in psychology, I read popular physics and I happily bow to the superior knowledge of others.

Which also addresses another point. Like most but not all psychologically oriented people, I assume utilitarian ideas. Greatest good for greatest number is as close to a golden rule as most psychologists get. I read Kuhn and Popper in grad school, but that was back in the stone ages.

I do like to see all this discussion though. Left leaning economics hasn't been all that robust since the heyday of Galbraith. And, as Vidal famously points out, America has no political theory, just politics. Maybe it's time we got one.


[ Parent ]
Random thoughts (4.00 / 4)
Operating at levels 2 or 3, we are unable to stand outside the structures we take for granted as defining our world for us.  This is still true at levels 4 and 5, of course, because it is always true--we are always embedded in something larger than us that we cannot grasp, cannot see from outside--and these will continue to inform and shape our ideologies.

Absolutely.  There really aren't 5 levels, but N levels, built on a recursive process of describing interaction between units of the previous level.  You would probably need a level 6 to handle singularity or the Matrix or a variety of science fiction based concepts.  I have no clue what anything above that level would represent, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

One strange, personal point on Kegan's stages.  I used to completely resent Level 3 (and below), but over time I've learned to appreciate the society norms encapsulated at this level.  Or to put it another way, it seems there will always be people stuck at lower levels of cognitive development.  These people need a place to fit in.  How do we build a society where these people are content without destroying the model of the society itself?

Somehow tolerance, empathy and universal community need to be centers of allegiance and loyalty.  Of course, we need to push and educate people to higher levels of thinking as well, but the path goes through the lower levels and the result must be compatible.

I've never heard of "Jihad vs McWorld", but the basic paradox is something I think of quite often.  It is fascinating how the world is both coming together and being divided up at the same time.  This blog (like all) is a perfect example of both.  It is only through the forces of globalization we can even talk to each other over these distances, but that allows like minded individuals to find each other and form small, relatively isolated groups.

But I don't think the modern ability of mass point-to-point and group communication is the full answer to why we are moving both ways.  It doesn't explain the intense nationalism felt in much of the world today, for example.

Anyway, thanks for the informative and thought-provoking post.  You've left me with lots to chew on.


So how do we force people to be more ideologically open-minded? (4.00 / 1)
So that they think like us, who are the only ones who think correctly?

;-)

Seriously, if things get as bad as they're predicted to get economically, and if history serves as any guide, things can go in several directions. One is, effectively, full-blown fascism, for which the government-corporate authoritarian infrastructure, the authoritarian mindset, and the RW authoritarian populist leadership already exist, and need only be taken several steps further.

Another is a return to New Deal-style liberalism, which is also very top-down (and which to many people on the right IS fascism, as a recent debate I've been having on Greenwald's blog reminds me), but which redistributes wealth and power in ways that are anti-fascistic.

Or, perhaps, a new brand of liberalism, which is both bottom-up and top-down, more like the peer-to-peer model of a typical progressive blog, that is generally self-moderated, but with some organizing and leadership authority from the top, and where vigorous dissent is both allowed and encouraged, than the client-server model of a typical RW blog, where commenters are instantly banned for diverging from the party line, and piled on by self-appointed thought police deputies.

I think that the conservative (although, really, Emersonian and thus liberal) "self-reliance" paradigm has become too implanted in the public's consciousness to allow a return to true New Deal-style top-down command economy liberalism. And, of course, conservatism itself, in its modern, "government is the problem", Goldwater/Reagan/Gingrich/Bush form, is dead. Some new synthesis will need to emerge if we're to not only get out of this mess, but thrive once again as a society. I think that it'll be something along the lines of government reorganizing the infrastructure of society in a way that both prevents entitled elites from accumulating (and thus abusing) too much money and power to themselves, but which redistributes it back to the people, and thus avoids accumulating too much of it itself. I.e. neither robber baron-style proto-fascism, nor the dreaded huge government "liberal fascism" that the right likes to call New Deal liberalism.

To get there, government will obviously have to become temporarily very large and powerful (which, conveniently, it already is!), but hopefully tha will just be a transitional phase to enable it to redistribute this wealth and power, and organize society in ways that make this self-sustainable. I think that the ideological "infrastructure" is already there, which it wasn't in the 30's. People are much more used to thinking in terms of being self-reliant and entrepaneurial these days, I think. They want government to do certain things, and large companies and organizations to do other things, but the rest they'd prefer to do for themselves, thank you. In some ways we were actually on the way towards such a more evenly distributive model (e.g. Friedman's "flat earth", microlending, zillions of startups), but this was co-opted by greedy and authoritarian neocons and neolibs, who tried--ultimately unsuccessfully, as the past few months clearly show--to pull things back in a more top-heavy direction.

Basically, I think that the role of government now has to be to play the leader in reorganizing society's infrastructure in a way that distributes wealth and power in a more even and egalitarian manner--and making sure that it stays that way. I.e. helping people to help themselves, and be self-reliant. It's an ideological and political fusion of the best ideas of conservatism (e.g. self-reliance, freedom--which were really stolen from the best of early liberalism) with the best ideas of modern liberalism (e.g. regulation, oversight, nationalization of core infrastructure), that I think will "sell" very well--and even work very well, if done right.

Interestingly, Obama's political model, at least as can be discerned from his campaign, and community organizing background, aligns with such a model very well. I.e. he's not a typical top-down authoritarian RW leader, nor is he a typical "I will make the hurt go away" liberal leader, so much as he's kind of an enabler-in-chief ("We are the ones we've been waiting for", blah blah blah). Too soon to tell if such a model will translate well into a presidential model. But there are some encouraging signs, in how self-starting so many of his ground operations have been, with help and direction from the top, certainly, but not nearly as much as is the case on the right.

We'll see.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


So Many Long Comments, So Little Time! (4.00 / 2)
So I'll just respond to a tiny smidgeon of what you've written, adding that I'm generally sympathetic to the flow of your thoughts.

First off, this:

Or, perhaps, a new brand of liberalism, which is both bottom-up and top-down

is precisely what I think is both needed, in the sense that it could actually help us solve the realworld problems we face, and and what people are potentially ready for, for reasons that you yourself articulate later in your comment.

Second, I think that there's a need for more aggressive, permanant government invovlement in shaping the direction of society, as indicated, for example, by the apparently very narrow tolerances that may allow us to avoid catastrophic global warming.

We're going to need a whole new reinvention of checks-and-balances, not just to repair the damage done by BushCo, but to enable us to centralize the power to meet global challenges such as global warming, without that power exceeding the narrow bounds in which it is necessary.

Third, we need some very innovative thinking about wealth and income redistribution.  I've written before about Jacob Hacker's work on the "Great Risk Shift," but I think this is only the leading edge of an expanding problem we will face.  Put simply, I think that we inherent price structures established in one era that predetermine market relations which do not in fact properly reflect neo-classical-style economic efficiency or any other public good.  They are, quite simply, dysfuncitonal to the core, and need to be reset somehow in a manner that gains broad legitimacy.

My orientation here is not anti-market.  It is pro-market-as-servant, and anti-market-as-master.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's going to be developed in real time, as we proceed forward (4.00 / 2)
and not something ready-made, to be sprung on us the day he takes office. Clearly, tremendous amounts of thinking and work have already gone into developing the ideas and programs that will need to be put in action very shortly. But as with anything this complex, dynamic, unpredictable and uncontrollable, a lot of improvising will have to take place to translate theory into practice. Which is what happened during the New Deal, of course. But it's clearly going to be different from both the recent (neolib, neocon, con) and more distant (New Deal liberalism) past. But such is it always, I think.

Also important is the need to "sell" whatever gets implemented--at both the fundamental ideological, as well as nuts and bolts implementation levels--to the broader public, who will need to be reassured that not only are things being done to get us back on track, but that they're the right things (or at least promising things). This is where Obama's communication and leadership skills will be extremely important. He'll need to give the modern-day equivalent of regular "fireside chats", to explain and reassure, as we try to get things in order. And he'll have to fight the right, as it tries to undermine these practical and communicative efforts. (I fully expect professional liars/losers like Gingrich, Giuliani and Dobbs to lead efforts to discredit Obama & Co.) But I think that he'll do ok at this, because people now trust him more than they do literally anyone on the right (except, perhaps, a certain very dead icon, who is becoming increasingly irrelevant even as a symbol these days--thank god).

I voted "no" on whether I trusted Obama. I trust virtually no one in public office. I think that that's a healthy attitude. But I do trust him more than I do anyone on the right, or among most of today's other Dem leaders, if for no other reason than that he's smarter than just about all of them, except for one or two, and clearly knows that he simply can't afford to screw up, for all sorts of reasons (think Jackie Robinson meets FDR meets Lincoln). Plus, he genuinely seems to enjoy what he does, and people who enjoy their jobs tend to be much better at them. He appears to view the present situation as a challenge to be taken on, and not as a set of crises to be averted or status quos that need to be restored (i.e. McCain). That, I think, is a very healthy attitude to have at such a time.

Like I said, we'll see. Very soon.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
you should look at some of the literature on development (0.00 / 0)
and most particularly peter evans on "husbandry" and "midwifery" - he's talking about the state's role in  promoting industrialization, but it could  be adapted or at least considered in other contexts as well.

One is, effectively, full-blown fascism, for which the government-corporate authoritarian infrastructure, the authoritarian mindset, and the RW authoritarian populist leadership already exist, and need only be taken several steps further.

Another is a return to New Deal-style liberalism, which is also very top-down (and which to many people on the right IS fascism, as a recent debate I've been having on Greenwald's blog reminds me), but which redistributes wealth and power in ways that are anti-fascistic.

I think the (albeit loose) dichotomy you're drawing is a misreading which comes from overfocus on the U.S.  Globally, there was simply more of a penchant for statism and state capitalism - whether ideologically justified on grounds of Marxism or Naziism or Fascism - because of prevailing economic conditions and (imo necessary) ind8ustrialization strategies.  So New Deal liberalism was an American variant of this - explicitly much stronger and more centralized state power in an American context than in prior eras.  It's analogous to how Reaganism and Thatcherism and Indian Liberalization are all related to each other ideologically but play out VERY differently in terms of policy demands in different contexts.


[ Parent ]
The Sarah Palin Objection (4.00 / 2)
Brilliant as usual, Paul. The trouble is, of course, that when asked to take political thinking this seriously, most folks complain that you're trying to drown them in meta. (N levels? Omigod!)

Even in a forum like this, you'll eventually hear the Sarah Palin objection:

1. It just ain't that complicated. God told me so.

2. What does an egghead like you know about making a payroll?

3. It's too long. It's too convoluted. It uses big words.

4. No voter could ever understand it, therefore democracy is a bad idea. (Oops, that's not the Palin objection, that's the Aristotelian objection.)

5. I just want my MTV.

Lotsa luck, Paul, getting this sort of thing included in high school civics classes, although in my ideal body politic, it definitely would be.


Three responses (0.00 / 0)
1 - Where ya been, William?!? I haven't seen you at Greenwald for some time. In fact some regulars were lamnting that just the other day.

2 - I agree that the level of discourse needs to be this complex, at least SOMEWHERE, because meta does matter. Even the other side gets this.

3 - Your comment is way too long, convoluted and big-wordy. Where's the Joe Sixpack reference? And it's "I want my YouTube", duh. Get with the program, William.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Oops! Speaking Of Which... (0.00 / 0)
I forgot to ask in my reply upthread if you had a link to some of the comments you mentioned:


Another is a return to New Deal-style liberalism, which is also very top-down (and which to many people on the right IS fascism, as a recent debate I've been having on Greenwald's blog reminds me)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Ugh (0.00 / 0)
Ever been engaged in an increasingly vituperative "debate" with some ideologue that you just wanted to walk away from as too acidic, stupid and upsetting? This was one of them, and that's what I ended up doing (needing to finally go to sleep was a major reason, too). So I'm kind of loath to go back there and come up with the link, since I might be tempted to resume where I left off. So I'll pass on that for now.

But if you insist, it was from his later Saturday diary, about the GOP and how it's ruined the country, running roughly through the last third of the comments section, with some guy calling himself he-ru-o or something like that. And I have to admit that, as I regretably sometimes do when tired and provoked, I engaged a bit more in diatribe than substance than I should have.

Plus, neoliberal economics is not exactly something that I'm an expert in, even though its broad outlines and assumptions have always struck me as naive to the point of being moronic, as well as inherently sociopathic. But I took the bait, alas...

May the ghost of Saints Hayek and Friedman have mercy on me.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I finally went there (0.00 / 0)
Here's where it starts:

http://letters.salon.com/opini...

Not my finest moment, too much vent, too little thoughtful analysis, but the guy is clearly over the moon for laissez-faire.

Also, soon after I gave up, it sidetracked into a free for all over abortion, of all things (this person is one of those ideologues who view the morning-after pill as "murder", and just-conceived embryos as "babies"--nuff said there).

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Around (4.00 / 3)
That's where I've been. Lotsa on the ground politics, although in Arizona, there ain't much I can do at this point except try to get our district's congressional candidate elected. (Sarah Palin prepped for her debate about 20 miles from me. If only I'd known, I coulda got myself arrested for trespassing and being in possession of a tasteless sign. Or, in the formulation of Paul's sister, I could have been charged with both of the only real crimes, presence and existence.

Anyway.... It's such a pleasure to read Paul again. I missed both his seriousness, and his astuteness. If I could only get Billmon to come back too, I might join Pedinska in her dance of the seven voles. I'd even bring my own voles.

And by the way, if I were in charge of teaching Paul in the high schools, I'd call the course something really sure to capture a teenager's attention, something like: Philosophical and Neurological Justifications for Tolerance. That'd get 'em away from YouTube, and more to the point, from MeTube as well. You betcha.... :-)


[ Parent ]
Elitist (0.00 / 0)
I know "elitist" is a bad word and all, but this post and conversation is somewhat purposefully elitist.  I wouldn't expect these sorts of details to become a regular part of the political dialect; it is at least one meta-level higher than that.

The question is: what should the actual conversation look like?  How do we promote that conversation?

Looking at the big picture described here, what very simple ideas can we promote that gets us where we need to be?  Tolerance?  Empathy?  The Golden Rule?  Dignity?  All of the above.


[ Parent ]
All Of The Above (0.00 / 0)
I agree completely that this sort of meta-discussion is not what you do outreach with.  Hopefully what it can lead to is not just identifying or supporting the key ideas you call attention to, but how we can connect them together in ways that better strengthen one another, and open up pathways for people who are ready to go further.  


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Great Post! (4.00 / 1)
Your discussion of Kuhn was actually a model of succinctness, and right on the money, great analysis.

Let me respond to "Silence Doesnogood" here because it relates to a larger question, below.  As Paul surely knows, and has probably said elsewhere, in fact the ideas the right wing is clinging to are often quite new in their specifics.  The religious right is actually constantly innovating because of the need for their ideas to make sense in the current context.  The fight against abortion, for example, actually is relatively new. Much of the movement is driven by a constant erasure of history, in which their present looks and feels like it is 3000 years old, but is in fact quite new and even radical.  The concept of the Rapture, for example, if I remember correctly, was invented fairly recently as a solution to the problem of constantly predicting the world would end (and then it wouldn't--end of movement)

In a related point, Paul, there seems to be an issue here with the model (as if people actually believe it) and the model (which assumes most people don't actually believe what they are saying).  A lot of people on the right don't believe what they are saying, it just benefits them to say it.  I'm not sure how to fit this into your model.  To some extent the right wing could be described as even more level 5 than the left, which tends to ignore the right as a bunch of idiots.  How many people really understand this?  How many on the right are actually trapped within the lower levels?  

This, of course, relates to a difference of commitment to democracy, to the extent there is a small elite.  But the elite is driven more by self-interest, on the top--for the non-religious conservatives, at least--than by any actual belief in the rightness of their paradigm.  As long as they get what they want, they don't really care what the paradigm is.  

There is also the interesting fact, as Arendt noted, that totalitarian mindsets can actually shift on a dime.  Yesterday we were against big government, today we're for it (although the recent vote may have shown some limits to this as the right wing hegemony over the right wing deteriorates).  The important thing is that we have the truth--it doesn't seem to matter much what the truth is as long as it's framed in the same "emotional" terms (or something like that).  What this means is that in a totalitarian world, constitency is actually completely optional and, in fact, pragmatically not very useful.  Which we've seen all the time.  

And, again, I'm drawn to Arendt's description of totalitarianism as a world in which other people have the "truth" and we just trust them to maintain a grip on reality.  So when they lie, we know they know the truth.  In fact, their lies only make them more compelling because they are so good at hoodwinking the opposition.  

Not sure exactly how all this relates, and I'm repeating myself from earlier posts.

Final comment: these kind of hierarchies of practices always bug me.  They are never neutral.  You know this, but I'd like to see you flesh out sometime where you think the failures of "neutrality" are in Kegan's vision.  People are always coming up with compelling hierarchies like this (the progressives loved them, and don't forget Kohlberg and Gilligan's later critique (good example of a paradigm shift)) and they always contain oppressive aspects for someone.  

Great stuff!  


--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


"Political Duality" (4.00 / 2)
A lot of people on the right don't believe what they are saying, it just benefits them to say it.  I'm not sure how to fit this into your model.  To some extent the right wing could be described as even more level 5 than the left, which tends to ignore the right as a bunch of idiots.

I made this sort of argument in my series "The Political Duality of Rep and Dem" (intro diary here).  The basic argument was that the right is as sophisticated in it's political strategizing as the left is in terms of policy analysis.  This isn't an argument about individuals, who, of  course, span a broad range on both sides.  Rather, it was an argument about coordinated action.

And, of course plenty of people on the right don't believe what they're saying.  To them, words are just weapons.  Ultimately, the conservative tradition comes from the warrior elite roots of European aristocracy.  They look down on facts and truth with disdain.  Those are things that shopkeepers care about.  

Regarding the invention of new "ancient" ideas/beliefs/practices, it was Karen Armstrong, in The Battle For God who really brought this home to me, although I'd been presented with the idea before in various different contexts.  For some reason, it wasn't until I read her that it really clicked as something fundamental, rather than just an odd quirk.  

Finally, as the question about hierarchies and nuetrality, a couple of points.  First, as implied above, simply because one's cognitive framework is broader that doesn't make you a better human being.  You can become a better human being as a consequence of such awareness.  Or you can become a better manipulator of others.  

I would say that you are more fortunate, and from how I was raised, that means you have a greater obligations to act for the benefit of others.  But not everyone was raised that way, now, were they?

Basically, I just don't think that attributes of any kind equate to moral superiority. I think there are some hierarchies that inherently bogus--race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., and others that aren't.  For example, older kids do have a variety of advantages over younger kids that for me--once again, because of how I was raised--translates into having responsibilities that flow from that superiority in experience, knowledge, awareness, etc., which, of coruse is not absolute, but that does have a general foundation in the realities of human development.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
hmmm (0.00 / 0)
i think this post could have benefited from a more Marxist reading of the nature of ideology (not a crude one - just more attention to the role of political economy / social structure in shaping what people believe).  Personally, I prefer Wallerstein.

On Barber, I haven't read "Jihad" (this is an offensive term imo in this context) vs. McWorld (this is not offensive though still pejorative), but:

If the global future is to pit Jihad's centrifugal whirlwind against McWorld's centripetal black hole, the outcome is unlikely to be democratic--or so I will argue.

This is the key part, and it's familiar to anyone who's studied development or federalism or other aspects of the political economy of developing countries.  Basically, politically and economically centralizing forces (usually accumulation) produce counterdemands.  Where on the spectrum of "democratic" the interplay of these two things is is the debate - I think it would help to be more specific about what is meant by "democratic" (I think it what is meant here is liberal towards the social democratic side?), but I don't know where people can exert agency and how much.  For example, like I mentioned in another comment, stronger state centralization was a trend during the Depression and WWII as an ideology but how it manifested itself in different places and contexts varied based on political, institutional, historical context.  Hence Britain has national health care, the U.S. does not.

In any case, I think opposing Jihad-Mcworld on one side and "stronger democracy" on the other side is a bit tendentious - it operates on a spectrum and the question is how you maximize practices of mutual respect and human decency in the context that you're operating in, imo (whether short, medium, or long term).  Personally, I don't think the U.S. is going anywhere unless it redoes its cosntitution, at minimum, exactly in the direction that you're talking about.

How does this relate to Kuhn?  Simple: each of these three models of civil society relates to a basic model of the self, at different developmental stages, as described by Robert Kegan in the following chart (briefly explained below):

I didn't understand this chart, but again universalizing about something like "civil society" on the basis of Western social science is dangerous.  However, more what I want to say is that you should look at Spivak's use of "subject-effects" - which resolves the discrepancy between subjects and objects.  This is really important, because it helps us understand that everything and everyone is both cause and effect, product and agent.

Also, I found it amusingly ironic to see a linear sequential evolutionary trend towards postmodernism :)  I would add postcolonialism which might get ghettoized into the "Jihad" but is actually important for understanding power dynamics in both postcolonial and postcolonizer countries.  Anyway, the recent turns towards reintroducing materialism back into postcolonialism is important also.  They help you get what you're talking about - a universalism that has attention to specificity, or a concern with particulars that has attention to commonalities.  Not really balanceable, but it's the attempt to do so that matters.


I really liked Kuhn (0.00 / 0)
But, what I found most significant was his sociological approach to the history of science. New paradigms never came into full acceptance until the old, established scientists faded into insignificance, and the old lions sometimes went to their graves never accepting that the world had changed.

Kuhn suggests that demographic turnover explains scientific progress better than steady evolution. Kuhn's revelation was that rational arguments and proofs didn't convert over the doddering fools clinging to the old theories. Pretty radical, as Kuhn's position contradicts  a lot of our popular beliefs about science and textbook knowledge.

Neal Stevenson's rollicking adventures are steeped in the history of science and hackers of all eras (he sees the original scientific revolution as an attempt to crack the code of the natural world... hackers). Paul if you haven't read  Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle trilogy, I can't think of a better way to lose a few weeks. Cryptonomicon rocks.


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