213-189 Against So Far... UPDATE: 221-196... 225-202 - and the PUBLIC WINS!!!

by: Matt Stoller

Mon Sep 29, 2008 at 13:45


I'm watching C-Span.  Holy crap.  This doesn't look good for the leadership.

... Wow, I watched the speeches this morning, and I saw traditional allies like Maxine Waters vote yes.  133 Republicans and 95 Democrats stood against this.

Blunt could only bring along 65 Republicans.  I had heard that the Republicans were overstating their numbers, and even with progressive economists like Paul Krugman and Galbraith arguing for a very tentative yes, and intense whip pressure from people like Rahm Emanuel, Barney Frank, and Nancy Pelosi, Democrats could only whip 140.

... I'm enjoying the Democrats refusing to gavel, acting like the Republicans who 'abused' process throughout their tenure holding the majority in Congress.  

Matt Stoller :: 213-189 Against So Far... UPDATE: 221-196... 225-202 - and the PUBLIC WINS!!!

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213-189 Against So Far... UPDATE: 221-196... 225-202 - and the PUBLIC WINS!!! | 123 comments
Wow (4.00 / 1)
I was not expecting this.

Back to the drawing board, huh? I doubt the Senate will even take it up on Wednesday.

Back to the drawing board indeed (4.00 / 11)
It's not to late to take an entirely different approach.

Make no mistake: the fetish for bipartisanship (Dems' fear of owning this) killed this bill.

The desire to pass something will only increase now. Dems should seize the moment and craft a progressive bill with teeth, which will keep 95 percent of Dems and 10 to 20 moderate Republicans--maybe more, if Dems properly frame the issue.

Bring a real reform bill to the floor and dare Republicans to oppose it.
'

[ Parent ]
Well, then Bush might just veto it (4.00 / 1)
Getting a progressive bill with teeth passed in these circumstances might not be possible.  Of course, on the merits, that means it should wait until after the election (possibly the best course of action, as Chris has been arguing).  
[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
I'm mostly indulging in a fantasy: the leadership is trying to go down the "middle" with this, and I can't imagine them changing course.

Still, is it inconceivable that this failure would lead to some courage: 'Okay, we tried to compromise, now we're going to do it our way.'

[ Parent ]
then they completely own the failure (4.00 / 1)
you can't go wrong putting up a good plan to protect tax payers and the broader economy. they can't spin their way out of this one. the public is tuned in and looking at the details and not having any of the usual bs.

the gop house looks like they were going to make dems own it. that's out of dems hands, so if they are going to own it, do it right.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Let Him (4.00 / 1)
We're not going to get a good bill passed under Bush. But we can get on record, and we can use it to build momentum under Obama.  
[ Parent ]
How, pray tell, is Bush going to explain (4.00 / 1)
urgent and veto in the same breadth?  This is exactly why people don't want this bill passed.  "Help, I'm drowning, but I won't get in your boat unless its a yatch".  

Bush, Paulson, Pelosi and Frank exposed put our one party system on full display, and it lost.   Oil and wall street need to come to the table and finally pay their own way.    

[ Parent ]
Exactly. (0.00 / 0)
Show the difference between the parties, from president to congress.

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008
[ Parent ]
Oh that's cute. (0.00 / 0)
Totally unrealistic, but cute.

Seriously, you think that's gonna happen?  With the lack of spine these Democrats have?

Dems should seize the moment and craft a progressive bill with teeth

You and I both know that's not going to happen.  Get this through your head, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PROGRESSIVES who WANT  a real reform bill.  It's not going to happen, not with this Congress.  So... what?  Wait until the 110th?  Let the world markets crash and spiral out of control until then?  All this did was crash the markets for today and WILL cause the Asian markets to fail come tomorrow.  Taiwan's about to be in a world of hurt.

You guys don't even know it yet.

[ Parent ]
This is going to be a disaster for the Republicans (4.00 / 7)
The Dow lost 400 points in the aftermath of the vote(within 10 minutes).  The financial crisis is spreading to Europe, and my guess is another bank or two will fail within the next 24 - 48 hours.

The no vote is going to look good right up until the Asian markets open tonight.

People do not understand the global dimension of this crisis.  

[ Parent ]
I think people do understand .. (0.00 / 0)
but they don't trust Commander Codpiece .. or people like Paulson .. who have conflicts of interest up the wazoo .. and they don't want McCain demogaguing the issue on the campaign trail .. because he would have .. with out a doubt
[ Parent ]
I absoutely think (4.00 / 3)
Paulson has to go.

The conflicts are enourmous.  Maybe the price we utlimately pay for Bush will be in the wreckage of the next 48 hours.  Since no one trusted either him or his aides, the market had to crash before action was taken.

[ Parent ]
Again? Deja Vu? (0.00 / 0)
Ok, I finally realized you meant against.  Took me several reads, though -- I am kinda slow.
This bill is dead (4.00 / 2)
201-223 now. No way that gap can be made up. Isn't time closed?

This bill in it's present form is dead.

It will be interesting to see the rollcall. Will this mean that extra progressive stuff will have to be added or that it will just be dead.

WOW.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

Or will (4.00 / 4)
extra conservative stuff be added?

I really really hope this doesn't perfectly encapsulate the phrase: "Be careful what you wish for."

[ Parent ]
That danger exists (4.00 / 2)
That the Dems will quickly re-introduce a more conservative bill to get a dozen more Repubs on board.
[ Parent ]
Trading Miers for Alito. (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Kaptur ran against Pelosi and Ford for Minority Leader (0.00 / 0)
Would she challenge Pelosi in the next Congress if the leadership pulled that stunt here?
[ Parent ]
She'd get crushed. Thank god n/t (0.00 / 0)


John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power
[ Parent ]
What leadership? (4.00 / 2)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
What leadership indeed? (4.00 / 2)
I have the misfortune to live in Pelosi's district where people run around being very proud that Nancy is the Speaker. She can't seem to run anything in this position that was her life's goal. I am not impressed.  

Can it happen here?
[ Parent ]
I should have said: "which leadership?" (4.00 / 1)
Which looks worse, the Democrats or the Republicans?

I don't see why its a bad thing for the majority party to "lose" a vote on a bill that was largely the idea of the WH and minority party.

On the other hand, why are all the Republicans ditching an idea put foreward by their leader in the Oval Office?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
I bet you guys feel real good about yourselves (0.00 / 0)

FUCK YES! (4.00 / 1)
FUCK YOU DODD SCHUMER PELOSI FOR SELLING US OUT!

OWN YOUR FAILURE!

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

Not helpful (4.00 / 5)

[ Parent ]
of course it is (4.00 / 3)
this is what an engaged public looks like. this bill had no protections for tax payers. and now the leadership will go back and have to renegotiate this deal. don't believe the fear mongering - they will redraft this deal and it will have to be better for tax payers.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
Ah, yes, the secret future bill (4.00 / 2)
in which all wrongs are miraculously righted. I love that plan.

I hope you're right.

[ Parent ]
I've got $2300 on a better bill (0.00 / 0)
i like that bet better than $2300 on complete crap.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
How much you got on (4.00 / 1)
a worse bill? I'm not sure why we'd assume that Take Two will move left to capture progressive votes, instead of moving right to capture conservative ones.

If you're right, this is a beautiful watershed moment.  

[ Parent ]
I'm 80% in cash (0.00 / 0)
if the dow dumps 50% (which would be unreal) I'll go shopping. just kidding - that would really suck.

there is no way Congress doesn't immediately regroup.

what is the conservative position? how can they go right? give away more money? cut the capital gains tax. they'll get twice as many angry calls.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
God only knows! (0.00 / 0)
Provisions against minority home ownership? Ending the 'death tax' once and for all?

I dunno. Maybe I should just join the "Pessimists' Caucus ..."

[ Parent ]
or hold out until the new congress... (0.00 / 0)
and pass the bill they really want.  since when did the bush-led gop ever negotiate with dems?  the urgency of this bailout is the real royal scam.  
[ Parent ]
Wow (4.00 / 3)
Bad for the leadership.  

IMO, there is an opportunity for the Democrats here, if this fails.  They should have a "comprehensive housing reform bill" or somesuch ready to ram through congress in the next week, that is solely targeted at helping homeowners.  Get something that you like and Republican votes be damned.

Order! Order! (4.00 / 1)
Members are yelling "Order!" to try to pressure the Speaker into closing the vote. They're keeping it open for some last-minute arm-twisting, but I doubt they'll get enough nay votes to switch.
What will the drawingboard look like? (4.00 / 3)
Does this mean the Paulson Plan is dead and Democrats go with a purely Democratic plan?  I'm guessing they'll try tweaking at first, but obviously the already thought they had the votes.

It will be an interesting week.

Once we see the final (0.00 / 0)
rollcall we can tell.

It might be possible to win over some progressives with a bill that included more bankruptcy and housing stuff. I think that's where this will go.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Did any of you .. (0.00 / 0)
see the Dow .. once it started to look like this thing was cooked? ... also .. is it still open? ... because I bet Hoyer is trying to twist arms big time .. .. because it should be closed
Yep (0.00 / 0)
They're trying to get some members to switch. The leadership was undoubtably blindsided today.
[ Parent ]
Down 400 (0.00 / 0)
that will be nothing.  If another bill doesn't hit the floor before 9 tonight the Asian markets are going to be a complete bloodbath.

Watch the commodities the rest of the afternoon.  If they tank the market is essentially saying we a reheaded for a global recession of enourmous proportions.  

[ Parent ]
Now What? (4.00 / 2)
My fear is something must be done - but for all of you cheering, please provide an alternative.
Nationalization (4.00 / 5)
The alternative has always been pretty clear: nationalize failing institutions.  We needed a bill like this to really see which ones were failing, but there are other means...

Of course, we also need better protection for actual homeowners.

[ Parent ]
Snap! (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
I've come around to this view (0.00 / 0)
(This is Matt H.) But we'll never get Repubs. This is going to have to wait until 1/20 and between now and then all we've got is the reaction of the market...

8000 here we come...

[ Parent ]
Do it right: Nationalize the bank (0.00 / 0)
It's the only right way to fix the financial system, while watching out for the taxpayers.  Paulson wanted a bail-out with no strings attached, and the strings on this bill were obviously going to be cut once it was put into action.

They've been doing it anyway.  It was when Paulson balked at Lehman that everything started to unravel.  Time for a systematic framework for continuing what they've been doing anyway.

[ Parent ]
do it after the election (4.00 / 5)
Which is in only 36 days. Don't give this much power to Bush. Pass a better bill when we have the white house and larger majorities in congress.

Which has been our position all along here at Open Left.

[ Parent ]
? (0.00 / 0)
What do you mean "we"?
[ Parent ]
The owners of the site (0.00 / 0)
That's what I mean.
[ Parent ]
You need to coordinate an action now (0.00 / 0)
a new bill will definitely be drafted and voted on. maybe by wednesday. maybe sooner. to sit back and think this will happen after november will be a grand mistake.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
! (0.00 / 0)
We celebrate your access.
[ Parent ]
There is no time (4.00 / 2)
if you wait 36 days Obama will inherit an economy in complete shambles.

[ Parent ]
I don't believe the fundamentals will change in 36 days. (0.00 / 0)
If things are that bad, he'll inherit complete shambles anyways.  We might as well hold off on the rebuilding plan until we're in charge.

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008
[ Parent ]
If things are as bad as they claim .. (0.00 / 0)
that means they are just papering over it now .. so Obama will inherit a mess either way .. straight up or papered over
[ Parent ]
On what are you basing (4.00 / 1)
your opinion.

Here is what I am basing mine on:
1.  The fact that the mortgage securities are sitting on the balance sheets of half the major banks in the World.  If there is no market for these securities, many of these banks are essentially bankrupt, and cannot make new loans because of the risk capital requirements.

2.  We have no seen two enourmous bank failures.  The FDIC insurance fund is actually running low, and my guessis National City won't survive another 36 hours without this bill.

3.  The financial contagion is now spreadsing globally.  Rumurs are already flying about UK banks, and two major European Banks failed this morning.

Modern progressive economics is a the child of Keynes.  Everything he wrote suggests he would be cheering as loudly as possible for a bailout.  

[ Parent ]
we may need to simply politely disagree. (0.00 / 0)
I'm not an economist, but I don't think there's good evidence either way. I haven't seen any evidence that giving $700 billion to the banks will help out anything now.  And I don't take anything that Bushco tells me as truth anymore.

But here in flyover land, I know that the execs of the local banks say they feel this is localized to Wall Street.  And so I'd rather save the $$ and use it to help fix the effects of a bank collapse.

Again, we may need to disagree.  And I concede I could be wrong, I've never been good at predictions, especially when it concerns the future.


War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008

[ Parent ]
This is not subject to debate (0.00 / 0)
unfortuately.

I do not know how to be nice about this: if it doesn't pass, there will be the severest recession you will ever see.

It is not a theory, it is simple math.

[ Parent ]
Not subject to debate? I was not aware that the Constitution had been abrogated. (0.00 / 0)
I think something may need to be done. I just don't feel that this bill was the correct path, and that we need to take a deep breath.  Then try to decide what to do.

Give me a little credit as a voter who tries to keep informed.


War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008

[ Parent ]
You're right (0.00 / 0)
Matt H here. This is a disaster. The bill was toothless in all the wrong places but we're about to find out why so many of us were willing to swallow this bitter pill.

You're in this business, right? Keep us informed with what you're hearing please...

[ Parent ]
"My fear is something must be done" (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, that seems to be what Bush, Paulson, the captains of industry, our crisis-obsessed media and our centrist politicians really, really want us to think.

The way this has played out has proven that the timing of this crisis was fabricated. Just like most crises - drugs, crime, social security, Iraq -  are called up at seemingly arbitrary times and labeled a crisis.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Include a revisiting of the anti-trust laws (0.00 / 0)
and make it impossible to create a corporation that is "too big to fail". This is, I think, critical because of the recent buy-outs in the banking sector that have served to further consolidate the institutions.  How long until we are again subject to the extortion: "Give me your money, or the economy gets it!"

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately (4.00 / 2)
In case you haven't noticed, the main long-term effect so far is big companies are buying up smaller, failing ones -- with government assistance.  Right now we are heading the wrong way.

While I completely agree, it will be quite a while before we can come back to that, I think.

[ Parent ]
Oh, I noticed (0.00 / 0)
If the economy tanks, what better time to come "back" to this issue.  Its right up there with executive compensation.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
Fer it and against it? (0.00 / 0)
As far as progressive candidates go, we know that Taddeo is against the bailout and Sam Bennett is for it. What about any others? (Darcy Burner, etc?)
Wow, huge bungling by the vote-counters (4.00 / 1)
Did Pelosi and company just fail to count their own votes properly?  Or did they stupidly trust Boehner and Blunt to deliver the goods?  

Or...tin foil hats ready...did the GOP leadership deliberately screw the Dems by promising enough votes while knowing they would fall just short?

Screw the Dems? How about screw McCain? (4.00 / 3)
McCain is going to be blamed for this failing. Flying in last week, promising to put together a great bill, attending the debate because great progress had been made...

Now it's dead. And McCain will look terrible.

[ Parent ]
Well, if we're going to don the tin foil... (0.00 / 0)
...we can talk about scenarios where the GOP House leadership deliberately tried to screw the Dem House leadership.  But you'll need some extra-strength tin foil to weave a scenario where the House Repubs were deliberately trying to undermine their own presidential candidate, no matter how much they hate him. :)
[ Parent ]
Not intentionally, no (0.00 / 0)
But who is the public more likely to see as the person who failed here? Some member of Congress they would never recognize? Or the Presidential candidate who (wanted to appear as though he) was elbow-deep in the negotiations and promised a bill?
[ Parent ]
Yeah, no kidding (4.00 / 2)
It's mindblowing that they would introduce a bill like this--on which the markets hinged--without knowing it'd pass.
[ Parent ]
Which makes me (0.00 / 0)
wonder if Boehner set up the Dems.
[ Parent ]
What if they knew it would fail (0.00 / 0)
It would be a way of moving left after showing that the GOP was unreasonable.  

I am probably wrong, but if my goal was to move the deal left, I would want the compromise to go down because of GOP opposition.

[ Parent ]
Makes too much sense (4.00 / 1)
They screwed up is more parsimonious.
[ Parent ]
Thank God (0.00 / 0)
I thought it was going to squeak by, but figured that the possibility of it failing was still strong.  Nice to see that Congress came just barely enough to its senses.

Of course, now the Dow is plummeting.  It will be interesting to see where it ends up and what kind of new pressure that brings to bear.  I have no idea where this goes now, though my preference is to wait until January and craft a new bill from scratch.

If negotiations restart, who has the leverage now?  The Democrats because the Bush/Paulson version went down or the House Republicans, who came out more strongly against the bill?  I wonder . . .

Now I just need to find out if my rep Blumenauer voted against it or not.  Called his office this morning and said "Hell no."  We'll see if he listened.

Voting Still Open? (0.00 / 0)
I'm hearing the voting is still open.  Any chance this could still pass after all with some serious arm twisting and some panic induced by the stock market?
[ Parent ]
Can we get a roll call? (0.00 / 0)
i dont know where I would get that, but I'd be looking to phone hold outs and tell them what we want to earn support for a revision.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
well (0.00 / 0)
It won't go onto the government site until at least tomorrow so we need somebody with inside knowledge.
[ Parent ]
Are you sure? (0.00 / 0)
I could have sworn I've gotten roll calls off thomas/govtrack in the past within like an hour of the roll call occurring. Am I remembering wrong? Why the delay...?

Though Govtrack seems to have redone their interface sometime this year and now I can't find anything...

C-Span's website is actually not loading. I'm literally getting "server too busy" errors. Holy crud.

[ Parent ]
yes, I think it should be sooner (0.00 / 0)
It does often seem to take a few hours, and a bit longer at the Washington Post site that has a better interface IMHO.

 

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
Yes! (0.00 / 0)
It has been a long time since we won something like this. Great news. Hopefully, it will be pushed until after the election now.

Every day that passes when we don't hand this much power to Paulson is a good thing. Any bill that Bush would sign would suck. Let's do this after the election.

For now, yey!

They've still got 2 hours to hold the vote open (0.00 / 0)
before they surpass the CAFTA roll call.

I would not be surprised if this vote is open until 4 pm.

[ Parent ]
Before you say that (4.00 / 6)
Do you understand the consequences of the bill's failure.

If you don't you are putting millions of jobs on the line.  

The blogsphere should be a reality based community before anything. That means understanding the consequences of this bill failing.

Which could be a worldwide recession of increadible proportions.

[ Parent ]
Yay... (0.00 / 0)
Not much else to add... This has been ridiculous.
[ Parent ]
So you admit... (0.00 / 0)
This is pure Bush aversion.

Something may be necessary, but because no one trusts Bush we can't pass a bill. I give Bush some responsibility for being a total douche and crying wolf too many times, but it's not clear to me why, other than the fact that Bush had something to do with the bill, so many people opposed it.

Great.

[ Parent ]
it's not over yet (0.00 / 0)
they're still holding the vote open...
wow!!!!! (4.00 / 1)
thanks for the update!!!!!!

now let's make use of the time wisely ...

Congratulations! (0.00 / 0)
Excellent work, JonPincus!

You can take some small share of the credit for this result.

[ Parent ]
Thanks, John, although ... (0.00 / 0)
... thus far I'm not sure how much we've done.

Still, that's the great thing about network-based movements: they continue to grow.  With the extra two days, we can make a much bigger impact ...

[ Parent ]
Yes! Matt Chris - we need a concise action oriented post soon! (4.00 / 2)
we need to consolidate the energy and demands. we need to be clearly focused on who we are targeting, what we are asking for. should be a simple list of people and a short list of talking points. keep the epic long posts by serrota off the front page during this time. and you at the top need to quickly coordinate with other big site publishers to get unified on action. we won't get another chance.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
In other words (4.00 / 7)
133 Republicans and 95 Democrats stood against this.

In other words the bill was defeated by bipartisan opposition?

Yes indeed ... (4.00 / 1)
Looks like bipartisanship can be used for good as well as evil :-)
[ Parent ]
Same old story (4.00 / 3)
Aside from the general badness (at least IMO) of this bill.  It sure looks like the dems are getting out-played again.  Part of the deal (at least publicly) was supposed to be 100-110 support from Republicans as a requirement.  The minority purported to have that, and on that basis, the Leadership moves forward (with 100 Rep votes they'd have it in the bag).  But instead, the Republicans falls short.  

Is Boehner really that bad a vote counter?  Or did he figure that in the heat of battle, Pelosi would take a victory and that the Republicans could mostly stay on the sideline and let the Dems take the heat.

Sure looks that way.  Does anyone doubt the cravenness of those involved?

Hooray! (4.00 / 1)
I still find it hard to believe how many Republicans voted agaisnt giving tax $ to the Bush administration's friends.  (That a majority of Democrats would vote for it doesn't surprise me at all.)

The question now becomes whether Obama or someone else shows some leadership and comes up with a bill progressive enough to pass with Dem. votes only and tell Bush to sign it or get stuffed.

Hey a guy can dream, right?

I guess I'll settle for a stopgap which kicks it to the next administration.

Dow is going insane (0.00 / 0)
In 12 minutes dropped 400 points, in 12 more minutes, up 200, now headed back down again...
Now it will fall entirely on the Democrats (4.00 / 3)
For those of you celebrating this result, consider that the Democrats - as the party with the majority - will receive the lion share of the blame for not passing something.

Further, they will feel compelled to come up with their own, purely Democratic bill, which will probably be an easy target for demagoguery.

The election just got a lot more problematic.  

Perspective and gambling (0.00 / 0)
If the economy doesn't crash in the next few days, I can see the spin becoming how the Democrats "saved" the tax-payers by not passing a flawed, unnecessary bill.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
And if the economy DOES fail? (0.00 / 0)
Then what?  Then ALL Americans will be royally fucked.  Not to mention most humans worldwide too as the Asian and European markets fail too.
[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
But, if its not the economy f**king us, its the global warming and the wars.

We just seem to live a F**ked up life.

Guess  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
But, if its not the economy f**king us, its the global warming and the wars.

We just seem to live a F**ked up life.

Guess I  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Yep (0.00 / 0)
But, if its not the economy f**king us, its the global warming and the wars.

We just seem to live a F**ked up life.

Guess I have  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Tails we win, heads they lose (0.00 / 0)
I see a minefield, but I think this can be well played.

If the market tanks, it's the Republicans who didn't go along.  They brought it on, they refused to fix it.

If it doesn't, then it's no big deal.


War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008

[ Parent ]
Er.. what did we win? (4.00 / 1)
Didn't economists like Krugman think this was really needed even if it was far from perfect?  So without it, it sounds like we win... a Depression.

So why are we happy?

The public does not win.... (4.00 / 2)
Thanks, House Republicans... you screwed us again!

Fortunately, I'm still relatively young... and fortunately, my parents were risk averse, so their money is protected... how many retirees will be eating dog food this winter...

Well, I guess everyone here is happy, right?... We'll get to relive history!  I always wondered what it was like to live in the 30's... now, we'll know!

Careful what you wish for!

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

I'm cautiously counting this a a win (4.00 / 1)
at least, not as a loss.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
It's inconclusive so far ... (0.00 / 0)
it's not like this is the end.  we'll see what happens next ...
[ Parent ]
Wow, an actual vote (4.00 / 1)
I can't remember the last time something like this wasn't a foregone conclusion.
The public wins... (4.00 / 3)
A 700 point or more drop in the stock market.  Congratulations, public.
And the alternative.... (4.00 / 2)
....could be a Japan-style recession, only worse because Japan has budget surpluses to cover the impact and we don't.

Or perhaps you would prefer to see the US Dollar no longer be the world's reserve currency?  After a Trillion or so going into the ether to no effect, that would possibly be the next step.

[ Parent ]
The dollar ain't going up on this news. (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
Exactly Right (2.00 / 2)
Mr. Stoller cares more about his tilt with the Wall Street windmill than he does with the public.  Hey Matt.  Any relatives relying on retirement plans.  I don't think you know your rear from a hole in the ground on this subject.  All your blindered eyes see is "we" beat the evil rich folks of Wall Street.  Grow up.
[ Parent ]
I do... (0.00 / 0)
and I have children and nieces & nephews from age 1 to 18.

The question - who gets the bill?  I think the next few days to weeks may show just how much of a financial problem we have.  I don't think we know now.

I think this gives us a chance to sit back, take a deep breath, and come up with a progressive alternative if needed.  Maybe even working with the White House, but on our terms.

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008

[ Parent ]
title should read "I do have relatives on retirement plans..". (0.00 / 0)
oh, for an edit function!

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength; McCain/Palin 2008
[ Parent ]
relax (0.00 / 0)
its already bounced back.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
OH BOY (4.00 / 1)
Only minus $450. A banner day.  And they're still working on getting votes, so the markets still think there is hope.  If it is finally killed, the market could go down much more.
[ Parent ]
And the real kicker will be tonight and tomorrow (0.00 / 0)
as global markets, especially Asian, react negatively, which will work as a positive feedback mechanism on ours.

The big drop will come tomorrow. Unless something gets done between now and then.

[ Parent ]
down 200 right now (0.00 / 0)
a lot of people like McCain were predicting 1500 point drop .. that is not here so far.
[ Parent ]
Check back in at 9:33 a.m. EST tomorrow (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
-645 now... (0.00 / 0)
Will it recover again?  
[ Parent ]
OK, now.... (4.00 / 1)
....let's pass a smaller, tougher plan to get us through to January 2009.

Thank God we dodged this bullet today.

Can we do that? (4.00 / 1)
I like that idea, but I haven't heard any specific such plan proposed. Does one exist?
[ Parent ]
There are multiple alternatives that have been mentioned.... (0.00 / 0)
....but I suspect that none of them really matter to the leaders of both parties within the House.  

I suspect that it's all about a headlong drive at getting the votes needed to pass something, anything - versus a plan that demands more of Wall Street.

I hope cooler heads will prevail and put forward something that has a lot more teeth to, in turn, persuade more "yes" votes. Because if it doesn't, then a second "No" vote would  show that we're flailing instead of thinking things through.

[ Parent ]
That's your job (0.00 / 0)
You guys fought hard to tank this thing. Good luck with that.
[ Parent ]
How individual Reps Voted? (0.00 / 0)
Where can I find how individual reps voted since it's not official yet?

Fighting for Texas families

2006,2008 Nominee for US Congress, TX 4th

Time for a Caretaker Administration. (0.00 / 0)
The problem's a lack of trust in Bush/Poulson.

1. Impeach.

2. Pelosi steps aside, former Iowa GOP Representative Jim leach elected Speaker.

3. Senate removes Bush, Cheney.

4. Leach assumes Presidency, sacks Poulson.

5. New bailout plan.



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.

This is awful... (4.00 / 1)
For Republicans.  

Their best option (electorally speaking) would have been the Democrats pass a bailout on close to partisan lines.  As the economy would continue to get worse regardless, they could then run against the bailout and potentially win (or not lose at least) based upon populist furor.  

Instead (provided no deal is hatched by the end of the week), they will be the ones who will get the blame for each bank which collapses between now and election day, and for the general deepening economic malaise.  There will be little to no upside for them for having blocked the bailout - no one will care about hypothetical taxpayer money that was saved.

As for it being good or bad for the economy, I'd lean heavily towards the latter, although I only have a bit more of an economic background than you do.  I really believe that the Bush administration believes there is a real crisis requiring a bailout from the actions they have taken however.  

Is there a rollcall on the web, somewhere? (0.00 / 0)


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.
213-189 Against So Far... UPDATE: 221-196... 225-202 - and the PUBLIC WINS!!! | 123 comments
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