Swing State Chart, 10/2: Pre-Debate Numbers

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 19:54


Here is the pre-debate swing state chart:

Swing State Overview (270 to win, 269 to tie)
(Swing States are defined as states closer than 5.0%. Before you ask, if a state isn't listed, it isn't that close right now.)
State EV's Obama % McCain % Margin # Polls Obama Total
Obama Base 249 249
Maine-01 1 -- -- +5.0% 0 250
Minnesota 10 49.7% 45.0% +4.7% 3 260
Florida 27 48.6% 45.6% +3.0% 7 287
Ohio 20 48.2% 45.4% +2.8% 5 307
Colorado 9 48.5% 46.0% +2.5% 4 316
Virginia 13 49.0% 46.6% +2.4% 5 329
Nevada 5 48.7% 47.7% +1.0% 3 334
New Hampshire 4 47.0% 46.0% +1.0% 4 338
North Carolina 15 47.3% 47.0% +0.3% 3 353
Missouri 11 47.0% 47.7% -0.7% 3 364
Indiana 11 45.7% 47.7% -2.0% 3 375
McCain Base 163 163

I noticed, with interest, Nate Silver's takedown of Real Clear Politics earlier today. I have to say, Nate makes a an extremely compelling case that RCP is internally inconsistent in which polls they include in their averages, making it more difficult to take them seriously as a polling resource.

Then again, I stopped using RCP's polling averages a long time ago. They always seemed to be using arbitrary dates for their polling averages, and the information provided at Pollster.com left them behind a while ago. RCP is useful in the way they display the most recent state polls, and I will continue to use them for that purpose.

This also seems like as good a time as any to bring up my disagreements with other forecasting methodologies, including Nate's. While I am fully aware that most, if not all, other forecasters have a far better grasp of statistics than I do, in short I still believe that virtually all other methodologies are simply too complicated for their own good. My specific problems can be found in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Swing State Chart, 10/2: Pre-Debate Numbers
Here goes:

  • Applying different weights to different polling firms based on past accuracy seems like a big mistake to me. This is because the degree to which polls were wrong in the past is not a very good indicator of how they will be wrong in the future. Polls with margins of error--which is all polls--will be consistently wrong in different ways. Apply different wieghts to different polls based on the past performance of the given polling organizations is, essentially, an attempt to predict how wrong a poll will be in the future. That strikes me as a permanent unknowable, and so I won't go down that path.

  • Adjusting for the "house effects" of different polling firms also feels like a big mistake. A given polling organization will rarely skew the exact same amount in favor of one party or another twice. However, attempts to adjust for House effects are assuming that a poll will skew in favor of a candidate or party exactly the same amount every time. The degree to which a poll will skew in favor of one candidate or the other strikes me as unknowable, so once again that is something I won't do.

  • Adding in non-polling information is something that should simply never, ever be done. Many forecasting sites, such as CNN, throw in meaningless "data" like the opinions of political "experts," past election performance, and the amount of money candidates are spending on ad buys. This information is simply irrelevant and unscientific, so I will not include it.

    This also applies to demographic regressions. While I understand and sympathize with the idea behind using such numbers, they are still a deductive attempt to predict the composition of the electorate without using actual polling data. And so I won't use it.

  • Finally, unless no other data is available, I also don't believe in assigning any weight to polls older than a week, especially during the height of the campaign season when more voters are paying attention. Polls only function as a snapshot of public opinion during the time periods when they were taken, making older polls useless in determining the current state of the campaign.

In the end, all of this means that I just average recent polls (unless no recent data is available). It is extremely simplistic, and I bet the simplicity of it probably seems suspicious to many people. I really don't care, as I think everything I have listed above is unscientific gambling with election forecasting. Based on past election results, I am also convinced that my simplistic methodology is the most accurate. Just looking at polls from the last week of the campaign, and not adding any special sauce, provides a very accurate view of how close elections will turn out. And, when elections aren't close, who needs election forecasters anyway?

In about five weeks, I guess we will see if I am right. Still, even if another forecaster edges me out by a few tenths of a percent, if they did so using any of the methodologies I listed above, then my feeling is that they will simply have made a lucky guess / gamble, rather than revealed a deeper truth on how to predict elections.


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the increase in the number of polls (0.00 / 0)
Is what's essential here, and it is great there are so many now.  Kos should be congratulated on funding his own polls and making the data available.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

Is this necessary? (0.00 / 0)
Chris, we know that there are differences between methodologies, and we get it.  We have no problem with it.  Nate adds his own special sauce to try and make sense of all the data and project the probability of the outcome in November.  

I like your swing-state chart as a quick guide to see where we stand.  It's actually a little depressing, if you think about it... If Obama goes down 3 points nationally, he'd still be ahead by 3 points but risks losing the election (in FL).  That's a bit disconcerting.


If he wins the popular vote by three (0.00 / 0)
The chances of him not winning the electoral college are remote no matter what the state polls are saying.

[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
Kerry came just over 100k short in Ohio despite losing the popular vote by about 3M votes, or 3% nationally.  Is it really hard to conceive of the opposite scenario (except where McCain actually gets those 130k votes)?

[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
Yet Bush was actually much closer than that in several Kerry states, Wisconsin for example. Still, it is theoretically possible just unlikely.

[ Parent ]
it's not hard to conceive (0.00 / 0)
but it seems unlikely to me because:

a) Obama allegedly has a huge turnout advantage
b) There are less ways for McCain to cheat than Bush had.
c) The economy is a significant issue.
d) The Democratic Party has been moving to the center for 20 years while the Republicans have been moving farther right for 14 (at least).
e) The current state of affairs.

Also, you're looking at just the Ohio numbers - could Kerry have really gotten those 100k votes in Ohio without making any impact on any other states?  Would he really have lost by 3% nationally then?  Maybe it would have been 2%.  see the argument?


[ Parent ]
Regression has its place (4.00 / 3)
Regressions based on demography were very effective in the primary, but that's largely because we were dealing with a non-ideological race with clearly defined consituencies of interest and districts that tended to magnify the power of said constituencies.

And as an assumption where polling is sparse, I also think there's some benefit to it. But it's never going to reach the insane levels of sophistication needed and the relevant demographic variables may not always be obvious.

However, assigning poll ratings based on sample size does seem like a useful idea to me.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


are electoral outcomes pre-determined? (4.00 / 1)
What was fascinating about the primary was how the outcome of states, time after time, was so strongly correlated with demography, to the point that all of the meta-narrative about the campaign - from Jeremiah Wright to working-class whites to Bill Clinton acting nutty - never really seemed to change the outcome all that much.

It made me wonder if the same phenomenon is at work in general elections, too. I.e., maybe all the conventions and debates and news cycle events don't really have an effect on the outcome on election day. Maybe it's all pre-determined by macroeconomic and demographic facts extrinsic to the campaigns. Unfortunately we'll never know, since the general election is a (mostly) one-day event, and the sorts of patterns we saw in the primary don't have a chance to emerge.


[ Parent ]
Of course... (0.00 / 0)
This was disproven slightly by South Dakota.  When Obama was basically in general election mode and more or less didn't campaign in the state, Hillary and Bill basically stormed it and managed to win it fairly decisively.

[ Parent ]
it's both, isn't it? (0.00 / 0)
you have to look at structural factors as well as day to day events.  They interact with each other.

[ Parent ]
social scientists gone wild :) (0.00 / 0)
This reminds me of an old saying (I assume) that was hanging in the computer science room of my high school ages ago that has nagged at me for years - would you rather have a system that produces an answer that's never exactly right, but always off by a specified amount (or range) or would you rather have one that's occasionally exactly right but you have no way of knowing whether it is.  

Okay, I adapted it a little bit :) I think your points about old polling and opinions of political 'experts' are pretty valid, but I'm a fan of 538, if only because I like systematic (or pseudosystematic :) attempts to produce comprehensive and informed guesswork.  I think the strongest argument you can make is that, I think, the 538 predictions largely reflect the same trends as Pollster (I think--if I'm wrong please do correct me), which means that all the gadgetry isn't getting to much more than the polls are.  Moreover the November projection vacillates a lot over time in coordination with the polls, which either means that there actually is that much uncertainty -- that day-to-day events are affecting the actual outcome of the election in a way that's reflected by the polls-- or that their model is still too tied to polls as the primary source of information.  Nonetheless, some critiques:

Apply different wieghts to different polls based on the past performance of the given polling organizations is, essentially, an attempt to predict how wrong a poll will be in the future. That strikes me as a permanent unknowable, and so I won't go down that path.

It's an attempt to assess the reliability of the organization.  I think that's totally reasonable.  Just the way I would trust the information that the Open Left community produces over what the Daily Kos community produces (sorry- just personal preference - not trying to offend anyone), though I would be aware that neither would be "objective" and that I'm not an "objective" observer either - the aim is to a) reduce the uncertainty to a minimum (because I like accuracy) and b) to reduce the cognitive dissonance to a minimum (because I, personally, can't help but do this, though i try on occasion).  It's arguable whether a and b are permanently at odds with one another.

This also applies to demographic regressions. While I understand and sympathize with the idea behind using such numbers, they are still a deductive attempt to predict the composition of the electorate without using actual polling data. And so I won't use it.

This argument is basically an argument that social structure has no influence on how people behave that's not expressed in their answers to poll questions.  That seems inaccurate to me on the face of it, but I don't have any evidence on hand to back it up.  But I think it's worth considering whether that's true.

In the end, all of this means that I just average recent polls (unless no recent data is available). It is extremely simplistic, and I bet the simplicity of it probably seems suspicious to many people. I really don't care, as I think everything I have listed above is unscientific gambling with election forecasting. Based on past election results, I am also convinced that my simplistic methodology is the most accurate. Just looking at polls from the last week of the campaign, and not adding any special sauce, provides a very accurate view of how close elections will turn out. And, when elections aren't close, who needs election forecasters anyway?

You're conflating two different points here - one is whether the polls of the last week are the best indicator of what the election would look like today and the other is whether they're the best indicator of what the actual outcome of the election would be in November.  538 is saying its attempting to do the latter, whereas, I assume, you're attempting to do the former.  These are two different aims - their use depends on what you want to do with the information and how you evaluate them also does, I think.


Statistics is informative in both details and overview (0.00 / 0)
While I agree that Keep It Simple Stupid has a value, statistics can help you measure the uncertainty in the pieces which can lead to better confidence in the aggregate. Nate has plenty of experience with practical statistics from his baseball analysis, and as you say, his primary analyses were very informative.

For example, Nate applies greater weight to recent polling and less weight to older polling, which gives him a proper, formal way to deal with all the polling data, whether or not it is frequent or sparse. From a mathematical standpoint, you certainly want to value a 1000 pt poll higher than a 500 pt poll, and the correct way to average is square root of the sum of the squares. I'm not sure whether that buys him more than a point or two over straight averaging, like pollster or Chris.

As to his special sauce.

Nate's demographic regressions provide a unique and very interesting approach. His analysis of the Clinton-Obama races were extraordinarily informative, because we seldom look into the makeup of the Democratic coalition.

These new tools could have amazing implications for redistricting purposes in two or three years. Somebody should offer Nate a big contract to do the demographics of national house districts or even at the state level. I'm serious.


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