Debate Postmortem

by: Matt Stoller

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 22:35


This was not a breakthrough debate for either candidate, but both of them did pretty well.  Biden was emotional while Palin was able to filibuster and repeat talking points without being pressured by Gwen Ifill.  I suppose the mau-mauing worked.  I felt like I was watching George Bush with lipstick, the same on message mean spirited digs masked by a genteel tone of voice.

I'm curious to see what the polls say.  Probably a slight nod to Biden, but not by a lot.  All in all, a debate like this doesn't really matter; Palin didn't destroy McCain's chances, and I think that's what a lot of Republicans were worried about.

What did you think?

Update (Chris): Biden crushes Palin, 46%-21% in the CBS poll of uncommitteds. Biden also won by about a 3-1 margin in the CNN focus group. I agree it won't matter much (71% of the uncommitteds said it won't change their vote, with 18% now with Obama and 10% with McCain), but people clearly think that Biden won, no matter what the "filters" say. And since there weren't any moments that will cause Republicans to bring out the whambulance, we seem to be in the clear.

Update 2 (Chris): Biden wins CNN poll 51%-36%. Not the same huge margin as the CBS poll, but that was only of undecideds. This poll's smaller margin probably comes from partisans on both sides being fairly similar in size, thus shrinking the overall margin. 84% said they thought Palin did better than expected, but people still thought Biden carried the day. I guess low expectations aren't everything. That, and 64% thought Biden did better than expected, too.

Matt Stoller :: Debate Postmortem

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Debate Postmortem | 90 comments
Post-debate photo op (0.00 / 0)
As the Palins and Bidens stand together on stage, it's like a very uncomfortable family reunion... Andrea Mitchell is criticizing Palin for tweaking the format.

I'm flipping over to Pitt-USF on ESPN... Ooooh USF just scored.  

"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers

Agreed (4.00 / 2)
She didn't hurt McCain. But very doubtful she helps him much either. Biden started slowly but then got into gear when she ran out of talking points and had to resort to repeating maverick this maverick that over and over again.
Biden won the debate because he succeeding in proving (0.00 / 0)
that McCain = Bush.  To win, Palin had to persuade the audience that McSame is a maverick reformer and NOT the Same as Bush.  She repeatedly claimed that was so, but she couldn't overcome the facts.  Biden won by behaving naturally, having by far the greater knowledge of the issues, and by showing conclusively that John MoreBush McSame is the McSame as McBush.

This was Palin's chance to "bring 'em to ya", remember, those specific examples of McSame bucking his party.  Did she forget?  I didn't forget.  Nope.  No Mavericks in the Republican party.  Just the same old militaristic neocons.  Palin identified herself with Cheney.  I'm happy to agree that she is a lot like him.

I think Biden may have blown the campaign wide open by conclusively proving that the Maverick = Bush.  The only thing he could have done to be more effective was to explicitly state that it is Republican corporate free-market philosphy, the same philosophy McCain believes in, which has caused all of Bush's disasters.  In the end, the fact that Bush is an asshole is almost beside the point.  Without conservative philosophy, he would never have been anywhere near as destructive as he has been.

[ Parent ]
Post-debate spin.. (0.00 / 0)
Palin didn't answer questions... repeated talking points and canned answers.
Started strong then fell away with little left to say (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
I concur (0.00 / 0)
She did not implode, so hence she came out still floating.  So as sad as it is to say, I am sure it will be close in numbers since everyone was assuming she would sink.

Maybe its just my bleeding liberal heart, but I was kinda annoying with hearing the Gosh Darnits and Maverick blah blah blah.  

Clearly you are an elitist (4.00 / 1)


"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra
[ Parent ]
What gave it away..... (4.00 / 1)
....i shall go back to my arugula salad now.
[ Parent ]
They wouldn't annoy me so much... (0.00 / 0)
If it wasn't painfully clear that those aren't how she is in real life.

[ Parent ]
three points (4.00 / 7)
1. While she didn't stumble as much as I'd expected, she clearly didn't answer many questions posed to her, and instead took hard turns to get the talking points on her copious notes out.

2. Biden looks like a person who is ready to assume the Presidency during any crisis. Palin does not. Cutesy does not equal world leader.

3. Biden trumped her on true emotion and believable passion.

4. I find it disturbing that she sounds so much like Principal Victoria from South Park.

lol, I guess I can't count to four (4.00 / 1)
I suppose I could blame it on our Sarah Palin drinking game.

One sip for each of the following:

- "in Alaska"
- "ya know"
- saying a word that should end in "ing" as "in"
- "hockey mom"
- "you betcha"

We did not include "maverick". I do not have enough beer in the house (likely not enough in my county) for that word to be included.

[ Parent ]
Biden was impressive (4.00 / 3)
Palin was a train wreck. How can anyone argue (as CNN and MSNBC are currently) that she was anything other than an utter failure? There were several occasions where she outright refused to answer a question and instead offered a nonsensical stream of talking points and "alsos" and "mavericks" and, quite frankly, sounded like a god damn idiot.

An idiot. Americans didn't buy her bullshit, but Americans understood the language Joe Biden was speaking.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

Seriously.... (4.00 / 1)
She didn't meet or exceed any expectations - at least not expectations for the Vice Presidency or competent debating even the simple understanding of the issues. I am eager to see some focus group and polling data -  I will eat my and chug this bottle of wine if she comes within 20 points of 'winning'.

Americans are stupid, but not Palin stupid.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Democrats won't criticize her (0.00 / 0)
One more point - she is going to come out of this thing clean simply because Democrats are afraid to attack her. Harold Ford just complemented her (that ingenious prick) and I think that will be the party line, both among politicians and many pundits.

She has transformed herself into a walking mockery of a politician - it is ok for us, ALL OF US, to criticize her as if she was an adult.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
but Andrea Mitchell and Tweety are rippin' her up (4.00 / 3)
Mitchell went off on how she didn't answer a LOT of the questions posed to her. I was surprised by Mitchell's vehement tone of voice. She really seemed appalled at the lack of substance.

Tweety was flabbergasted and pounded home at how Palin wants to expand the power of the VP. He also went on about several other issues, was very critical of her on SUBSTANCE.

I've flipped over to CNN, and am very pleased to see that their focus group says overwhelmingly that they felt Biden won. Several voters saying that this debate made them decide to support Obama.

[ Parent ]
Women aren't afraid to jab at other women (4.00 / 2)
And Tweety is Tweety...
[ Parent ]
I'm hoping that people who listen to the punditry for confirmation (0.00 / 0)
will hear the punditry (I'm flipping between MSNBC and CNN) that is criticizing Palin's lack of substance, and realize how true it is.

Personally, I don't listen when paid Democrat or Republican spinsters tell me what to think. When pundits that really want to turn this into a horse race say things that are contrary to what would be "exciting" for ratings, I'm curious.

[ Parent ]
Hah - Harold Ford! (4.00 / 3)
  Harold Ford thought that the infamous McCain Green Jello speech (circa Obama's official nomination) was the best speech ever.  

John McCain lets lobbyists shape his economic policy
[ Parent ]
I don't know either. (4.00 / 1)
  I thought she muddled her way through the first part of the debate fine.  The second part was an embarrassment for her.

John McCain lets lobbyists shape his economic policy
[ Parent ]
We'll see (4.00 / 1)
I hope you're right but I have a lot less faith in the American people these days. Look at George W. Bush, nothing but folksy image and it worked just fine for the little people and the oligarchs.
[ Parent ]
Fool me once shame on you.... (4.00 / 6)
Fool me won't be fooled again. America does not want another folks idiot. They want the pain to stop and the country to stop sinking.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra
[ Parent ]
Thank you (4.00 / 1)
On that note I try to get some sleep.
[ Parent ]
Me too (0.00 / 0)

 A couple of good polls are out. A great time to hit the sack.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn
[ Parent ]
it was the cliff notes reading student (4.00 / 4)
versus the author of the book. Biden handled the situation debating a inexperienced woman well, Paling tried making some attacks but nothing landed. Biden played a defensive game and scored good return hits.

Palin's cornball act is so grating, maybe it plays well in some parts of the country but not here.

No fireworks but Biden put it away.

Biden Beat her ass... (0.00 / 0)
But it did nothing to further drop McCain.  She probably kept her favorables from falling farther.
Greg Comlish Agrees (4.00 / 2)
This Debate was not a game changer.  

Who did better?  Palin beat expectations, but Biden still beat Palin.  

Palin stuck to her talking points and ducked the question in a very obvious fashion.  Biden called her out on it, which was awesome.  Even Palin's answer to creating "bi-partisanship" invoked the Obama tax-boogeyman talking-point.  

Biden was dignified, genteel, and still dominated the factual narrative.  Biden also seemed more a like a real person.  Palin was entirely rehearsed.  This allowed Biden to dominate the more critical emotional narrative.  

I never heard Joe Biden before this debate.  I had the vague impression that he was hokey and lame.  But I really respect the guy now.  Palin doesn't seem as stupid, but she defintely didn't seem smart.  She seemed like a fresh recruit to the highschool debate team who is enjoying herself but still hasn't mastered the basics.  

This says it all (4.00 / 6)
Photobucket

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
FUNNIEST screen grab ever (4.00 / 1)
fantastic!
[ Parent ]
spot on Cheney imitation (4.00 / 1)
I say she is ready for a secure undisclosed location.
[ Parent ]
She looks really cute and sexy here. (0.00 / 0)
Way cuter and sexier than when she's not contorting her face.
[ Parent ]
Hard to read (0.00 / 0)
Palin didn't obviously self destruct like I was hoping she would, but it was about what I expected.  The real question is whether her avoidance of answering the real questions was annoying to the average swing voter the way it was for me?  No clue.
She didn't need to self-destruct to lose (4.00 / 1)
She just had to come across as insubstantive, jingoistic, silly, unprepared, immature, unready, snarky, phony, and way out of her league.

I.e. reinforce the memes that have been developing about her these past few weeks.

I think it's clear that she did.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
That's a pretty comprehensive list. (0.00 / 0)
Way out of her league encompasses a multitude of sins, in this case.  
[ Parent ]
Yes! (4.00 / 1)
It appears swing voters agree!

I may have to upgrade my opinion of the American electorate.  I'm still suffering from the loss in '04.

[ Parent ]
"Maverick" is dead + stoopid (4.00 / 7)
1) On CNN, both reaction-dial lines went sharply down by 15-20% EVERY TIME Palin said the word maverick.  Ruh-roh, Johnny.  We'z got a branding problem!

2) Twice she used the word "attribute" in a fundamentally nonsensical way--i.e., she switched the indirect and direct objects--which showed she didn't understand what it meant.  Attribute?  That's like, what, a sixth-grade word?

That's hilarious. (4.00 / 2)
McCrazy/Evita have to win on the Maverick argument.  If they are the Same as Bush, they lose. And they are only not the same if they are really Mavericks.  Nobody wants MoreBush.  Let's all cheer together: NO MORE YEARS! NO MORE YEARS!

But in reality, their argument boils down to, can the average voter understand the concept of 90%, or not?  If McWhackJob voted with Bush 90% of the time, how can he not be the Same?

So only those who don't understand the meaning of 90% can believe McSame is a Maverick.  

[ Parent ]
wow. Obama's campaign strategy is working (0.00 / 0)
if they're so clearly destroying the "maverick" myth into dust.

Just wow. That's amazing.  

[ Parent ]
You can't keep calling yourself (4.00 / 1)
a maverick and expect people to react favorably.  Its like walking around and introducing yourself as smart.  Even if its true like in my case =-), it doesn't work.
[ Parent ]
Well, at least you found a way to make it work for you. (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
Palin didn't melt down... (4.00 / 2)

 ...partly because Ifill was a pillar of salt.

 No questions about the rape tax, about the bridge to nowhere (though Biden managed to work in a reference), about Putin, about Troopergate, about ANYTHING that might have been remotely controversial about her.

 So she was able to veer to her talking points at will. And Ifill just sat there and let her.

Biden smoked Palin on substance, and his style was pretty good too. But this debate was about Palin, and she survived. That's what mattered here.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

Given expectations, she couldn't have lost this debate (4.00 / 2)
At least, not in the eyes of the cable wankjobs.

It was Biden's to lose. She wasn't going to give the Couric gibberish answers this time.

Her innate meanness of character allowed Biden to take substantive shots as he pleased, which was gratifying to see.

[ Parent ]
What you say is true, but (0.00 / 0)
even though it was Biden's to lose, he didn't lose.  He won by being transparent.  The story he told about Strom Thurmond summed up his appeal: as a matter of policy, he will not question a political opponent's motives. It's almost like a get out of jail free card for Republicans, I don't see how they can resist this message.
[ Parent ]
Deportment (4.00 / 2)
I usually focus on the substance of the debate, and get annoyed by post-debate analysis of demeanor, etc.

However, I think deportment is really the story of this debate, especially against the background of war and economic duress. Biden was the statesman, passionate yet reasoned, caring and empathetic yet formal. Palin, although far better than expected, was bordering glib. With her carefree body language, her near-constant playing to the camera, the numerous petty jabs...I'm sure the conservative base and lo-no information voters may have found that appealing, but I doubt that sat well with the general public...again, especially considering the backdrop to this debate.

playing to the camera (4.00 / 1)
can't take the sportscaster out of the VP candidate I guess.
[ Parent ]
Most important point: Obama wasn't touched (4.00 / 7)
Sure, Palin helped her own image. But Biden landed some good blows against McCain.  And nothing was said that hurt Obama, which is what I think is of paramount importance.
Her only real try at an agressive attack on Obama (4.00 / 1)
was when she kept stridently repeating that a willingness to talk to the leaders of unfriendly nations without preconditions was "beyond naive" and "beyond irresponsible" and was "dangerous".  I think the preconditions argument has been settled.  Obama pointed out that no preconditions doesn't mean no preparations.

So this was her interpretation of the Republican who stubbornly repeats the talking points while insisting on some abstruse semantic point. Not a very convincing interpretation.

[ Parent ]
Bush Kerry Redux (4.00 / 5)
If this debate was a movie you'd swear you'd seen it before. Watching Palin-Biden was just like watching Bush-Kerry. You had the same roles albeit with a few twists from casting.

Playing the plain-spoken, bullshittin', super-Protestant, super-patriot Governor was Sarah Palin.

The knowledgeable, distinguished, Eastern, Catholic Senator who can't help throwing off too many numbers was played by Joe Biden.

The problem for the Republicans is the public has soured on the original. They aren't buying the Republican "plan" for Iraq at all. They are agreeing with Obama/Biden when four years ago they were eating up macho-man George Bush. They know they got snowed and they know Bush was full of shit. I think a majority of them are going to see right through Sarah Palin too.

Both debaters played their parts well tonight. But the mood of the country will give the win to Biden. America is ready to agree with the Democrats and they are no longer buying what McCain and Palin are selling. Bottom line, the Democrats got what they needed tonight and Obama's lead will remain intact.

In several respects, what you say is exactly right. (4.00 / 1)
Palin was forced to explictly identify with several of the most unpopular features of the Republican Party.  She identified herself with Dick Cheney.  If Bush's latest approval rating is 22%, that must mean Cheney is down to about a 5.  By speaking approvingly of Cheney, by identifying herself with him, by saying she agreed with the founders in their clever creation of the Vice Presidency as having more powers than you think, Palin showed unmistakably that she is the Same.  Same as Cheney.  Same as Bush.  Same as Rumsfeld.  
If she is the Same, she loses.  She claims to be a Maverick, but applauds all the worst features of the ideology she nonetheless swears to uphold.  

Palin showed what she is.  Nobody wants it.  

[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 2)
Palin is an idiot, who had a few well rehearsed talking points that she kept spewing out.  She completely dodged several questions.  The whole folksy tone of her voice was really annoying.  I find it hard to imagine any foreign leader taking her seriously.  The scary part is I felt much the same way about Bush and we elected him.  The only question that needs to be answered now is how did Joe Public (or six pack) view her.  I would love to believe that they saw the same things I did, but I'm not ready to declare victory.

   

To risk a compliment... (0.00 / 0)
But having a rally afterwards was extremely smart of them.  Fuck...
yea (0.00 / 0)
yea that sucks..
[ Parent ]
Drill Baby Drill! (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
I'm probably not terribly objective, but (4.00 / 7)
I think my main come-away from the debate was that it was really about getting to know and getting to be comfortable with Joe Biden. This is a bit of a surprise-- I think everyone expected Palin to be the focus. Instead I walked away from this debate fairly impressed with Biden and really without much impression Palin had even been on the stage at all. Palin didn't fuck up, but she didn't do really anything else to leave a lasting impression; she doesn't even get the "held her own" bonus like Obama may have last week, because she didn't particularly hold her own against Biden-- every time she said something he had a strong, direct and fact-based response and every time he said something sheeee... changed the subject.

So I think what we can predict will happen out of this is that McCain's numbers won't fall after this debate, but Obama's will rise because of people who were impressed by Biden...

By the way, Palin said like 18 times that her family is middle class. Is that true?

I fully agree (4.00 / 3)
How many older, moderate voters just got convinced that an Obama/Biden ticket isn't such a bad idea?

How many MEN just decided that, hell, even if Obama is kinda an elitist sissy-boy, at least Biden is a tough old guy with grit and experience - and a hell of a lot better than Sarah Palin! Men are the ignored group in this election, and they favor McCain.

Obama's number will rise - though McCain's might as well. The difference is that this debate may push Obama over the 50% mark, and Palin, at best, may have solidified his 45-46% ceiling.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
I don't think it's literally true that they are middle class. (0.00 / 0)
They own a plane and a fishing boat.  Fishing boats do not come cheap.  McCain thinks he's middle class, too.  He has less income than $5 million a year.
[ Parent ]
I guess it's subjective. Maybe the question we should really be asking is: (0.00 / 0)
Does Sarah Palin qualify for a tax break under Barack Obama's plan? :P
[ Parent ]
Biden was superb, (4.00 / 1)
disciplined, made a terrific defense of the ticket, talked like an expert and delivered a memorable destruction of the "maverick" towards the end.
[ Parent ]
Looking at those dial lines... (4.00 / 1)
I was looking at a few clips on TPM, and I was completely blown away when Biden was talking about his family. I guess I was glazed over and not paying attention at that point when I was watching it on TV. And also, the lines at the bottom of the screen went through the roof right then.

I also noticed that the lines sunk for Palin when she kept saying "maverick, maverick, maverick." I think people are sick of hearing repeato-girl on that line.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

It was his best and her worst moment (4.00 / 1)
as far as emotional connection goes. And the instalines reflected it. Watch them dive when she started repeating talking points immediately after Biden bared his soul. That's the moment during which he won the debate.

Yes, I'm repeating what you just said, with different words. It's worth emphasizing. I hope that clip goes viral.

[ Parent ]
You're right (4.00 / 1)
It bears repeating. So I'll repeat it again too.

As somebody who's more than once heard Joe Biden talk about that moment in the past, I was surprised at how moved I was by that. And then she just moves on. That moment was just cold. She clearly wasn't even listening to what he was saying. She was just waiting for her turn to speak, and then just recited a memorized line.

Also, she reminded me of a squirrel. Don't ask me to explain that one.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
I think it's the overbite and the round little cheeks. (0.00 / 0)
Also, she's kind of furry with all that hair.  And, she tends to chatter and scold. If she would twitch her tail, it would be a perfect impression.
[ Parent ]
It was her "Kitty Dukakis" moment (4.00 / 1)
I was surprised that she didn't express any, you know, normal human sentiments in response to Senator Biden's story about his family tragedy.  At a minimum it highlighted how not ready for primetime she is -- afraid to deviate from the script and improvise a response.  Or maybe she hadn't been briefed on what happened to his family (despite having followed his speeches since she was in, like, second grade).

Voter Genome Project
[ Parent ]
Best News Yet: (4.00 / 8)
Those polls seem to indicate that people really get how thin Palin's act is, how tenuous is her grasp of what she's talking about (or around).

That has to be a good sign.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

Yep (4.00 / 6)

 Palin beat her own established standards. But she didn't beat Joe Biden.

 Biden was excellent on the substance, of course, but I think Biden even came across as more likable than Palin. He pitched his performance perfectly -- kept his focus on McCain, didn't bully Palin, wasn't condescending or rude, flashed his killer smile when appropriate. I came out of this debate really, really liking Biden -- I'd always been a bit lukewarm about him.

 Palin sounded like a robot playing a 33 rpm record at 45. She wasn't BAD, but generic Republican talking points, even when delivered by an attractive woman, aren't going to win any elections this year.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

[ Parent ]
Looks Like America Is Finally Seeing It My Way (0.00 / 0)
I thought she was a phoney act from the second I saw her convention speech, and that if you put here side by side with Biden it would be obvious which one was authentic (warts and all, and Biden's ego shows a little in that clip) and which one was a fraud. The snap polls seem to indicate that maybe America is seeing the same thing I did.

Unfortunately, once this goes through the media spin cycle, I think it'll be like a draw. They'll make such a big damned deal about the fact she didn't come on stage and say, "I can see Russia from my house," that it'll probably drown out everything else.

[ Parent ]
Today, Cilerder86 is driving the Whambulance. (4.00 / 6)
  Palin referred to Senator Obama as "Barack" even though he was not present at the debate.  I will not tolerate such disrespect.  Even though I was previously committed to McCain, I'm switching to Obama.  I am an independent voter and as such I must base my votes on the most ridiculous, contrived, and small-minded details.    

John McCain lets lobbyists shape his economic policy
She'll have to get used to calling him Mr President soon enough (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
Phillies won tonight (4.00 / 3)
what's this about a debate?
Could you imagine what would have happened (4.00 / 3)
if a Democratic candidate had just casually referred to a Republican widower's dead wife in a debate, by the way?
Wait - (0.00 / 0)
I thought Palin meant Biden's second wife. She was referring to his late wife?

Oh, man. Then Palin really lost. Not just on substance.

[ Parent ]
I only saw brief parts of the debate, but... (0.00 / 0)
...Palin did refer to Biden's current wife in her answer about teachers.  Unless Valatan is thinking of something else, I don't think Palin ever referred to Biden's late first wife.  
[ Parent ]
I got a little distracted during htat (0.00 / 0)
she ended the comment with the 'reward in heaven' bit, and I mistook what she was talking about.  My bad.
[ Parent ]
screw the debate (4.00 / 1)
I want to talk about David Brooks. Did anyone see this wanker's analysis on PBS? I mean, he really has the market cornered on East-Coast-elitist-conservative-who-grew-up-in-NYC-telling-other-elitist-conservatives-what-sort-of-feigned-attempts-at-being-down-to-earth-ought-to-appeal-to-down-to-earth-types-in-the-Heartland-of-America style commentary, doesn't he?

How does he look in the mirror and not begin to giggle a little?

It's pretty amazing. (0.00 / 0)
I've always wondered where he got all that hauteur that he displays, and what it is he thinks entitles him to it.  He's obviously not from an upper class background.  His accent is common, his dress is borderling shabby, and his haircut is just awful.  He's always looking down with that nerdish smart-kid half-smile, but he isn't smart.  He shows a marked inability to reason soundly.  He fixates on minutia, he is unable to realistically prioritize, he wanders from point to point, he takes absurd pride in his supposed ability to score on semantic points.  He is a joke.  I really don't know how, just from observing him, anyone can not know that his ideas are a joke.
[ Parent ]
White flag comment bombs (4.00 / 3)
Look at Al Rodger's cool thread at DKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

When Palin whipped out the "white flag of surrender" line, CBS's instatracker fell off a cliff. People HATED that response.

I honestly didn't hear much of the debate (4.00 / 2)
but her most memorable comment to me was something about if Al Qaeda says that Iraq plays the central role in the war on terror, we should listen to them.
Ha, yeah, that was a good one (0.00 / 0)
I especially loved her newfound commitment to gay rights. Was she arguing for federal protection of same-sex partnerships?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra
[ Parent ]
Ha, yeah, that was a good one (0.00 / 0)
I especially loved her newfound commitment to gay rights. Was she arguing for federal protection of same-sex partnerships?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra
[ Parent ]
Let's remember (4.00 / 1)
...what John McCain said when he was asked roughly that same question you ask here, in a questions-submitted-to-McCain-in-writing-and-returned-later, take-as-much-time-as-you-want mail interview with the Washington Blade:

   Blade: Do you foresee a day when the federal government will recognize civil unions or domestic partnerships performed by states?

   McCain: I honestly don't know.

McCain/Palin have a strong and consistent message on gay rights: Well uh whatever let's talk about something else.

[ Parent ]
She Forgot Osama bin Laden's Name (0.00 / 0)
She's lucky she's becoming so irrelevant in this campaign (tonight was probably the end of the line of her irrelevance) because if she still mattered in this campaign, I think Obama's people could make a wilting attack ad with the footage of her saying, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, "You don't take me or John McCain's word for it, just ask General Petraeus and that leader of al Qaeda."

[ Parent ]
She did OK (0.00 / 0)
Biden won most of the debates in '07 - he was pretty good tonight.

What did happen tonight was she took a part of the judgment issue against McCain off the table.  By appearing credible,  Palin at least stopped the bleeding on the issue that I think is really killing McCain: his judgment.

Not a game changer, particularly if the polls say Biden won the debate, which appears likely.  

credible? (4.00 / 1)
How in the hell did she appear credible? Give me just one example of her being credible.

She was not credible. Not by any reasonable standard.

q.e.d.

[ Parent ]
She didn't fuck up (4.00 / 1)
and she did better with Biden than Couric.

How is that NOT credible on the post-GWB standard?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Biden talking about being a parent was a key moment (4.00 / 2)
That was the moment he took away the "folksy," Sarah is so in touch with "Joe six pack" can connect with voters myth.

Another critical moment was when Palin said that VP powers should be expanded. Biden nailed her on it. Considering that Palin has already been accused of abuse of power, this is relevant.


Excellent point (4.00 / 2)
Obama could connect the dots on Palin's own issues in Alaska and Cheney's abuse of power.  She wants to continue and expand that abuse.  Not sure if Obama needs to do this at this point, but it could be an effective way to show that she is more of the same if the polls tighten.
[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
THIS should be the emphasis from Obama/Biden in ads.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
[ Parent ]
Ifill was the loser. She sucked. (4.00 / 1)

Winner/Loser (0.00 / 0)
Winner: Biden
Loser: Gwen Iffil for caving to the Republican echo chamber.

In the 2004 VP debate, Ifill asked Edwards, What qualifies you to be a heartbeat away?

How is that same question not appropriate now? It is the major question most people are asking in this country concerning Palin.

dull (0.00 / 0)
without a capital d, doncha know

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."
Pat Buchanan just turned beet red (0.00 / 0)
It was incredible.  Gene Robinson is fantastic.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.
Debate Postmortem | 90 comments
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