The Real Party of Death

by: aaronsw

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 12:52


Seeing as how the economic "crisis" has tanked McCain's poll numbers, his campaign has been forced to change the subject. (Obama helped out by taking the bailout off the table.) McCain's new direction: William Ayers, the Weathermen bomber who happens to live in the same neighborhood as Obama. (Naturally, the New York Times has eagerly jumped into the tank, as have the conservative C-SPAN callers I've heard.)

Why is knowing Ayers so bad? To quote John McCain, "How can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings that could have or did kill innocent people?"

aaronsw :: The Real Party of Death

It's a great question -- for John McCain. One of his senior foreign policy advisors (as we were reminded at length in the debates) is Henry Kissinger, the man who engaged in bombing innocent people in North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Cambodia, and anywhere else he could get Nixon to send bombers to.

The Weathermen bombed the FBI and the Pentagon, but tried to get everyone out of the building first so that no one was hurt. Kissinger, on the other hand, took the bombs straight to people's houses. And thanks to Nixon's fetish for taping everything, we actually have Kissinger's exact orders: "a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. Anything that flys on anything that moves. You got that?"

Why isn't Kissinger in jail for genocide? After all, it's pretty rare you have tape recordings of mass murderers issuing their orders. But, of course, Kissinger isn't a public enemy -- he's a powerful, well-connected person, so Interpol has refused demands to arrest or detain him, no matter how strong the evidence.

And why is Ayers a Chicago professor instead of behind bars? After all, you'd think the least our government could do was arrest a confessed terrorist. But no, the FBI spent all their time doing infiltration and illegal wiretapping instead of real policework, so all their cases got thrown out of court. (I guess this is why Bush refuses to have his terrorist trials in real courts.)

If John McCain wants to make this campaign about Obama living down the street from a political activist, someone ought to point out how he's being advised by a genocidal maniac.


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Kissinger vs the Weathermen (4.00 / 7)
Can this country ever get over the fucking sixties?

Talk about an arrested adolescence....


Not until (0.00 / 0)
the me, me, me generation, is forced to give up their power.  

[ Parent ]
Oh man (4.00 / 1)
as a native vermonter who was forced to hear endless going clean for Gene stories, you hit the nail on the head with me....

[ Parent ]
What about G. Gordon Liddy? (0.00 / 0)
Didn't he get sent to prison for treason and other Watergate crimes? I'd look into McCain's associations with Liddy, Ollie North, and any rabid right wing talk radio shows he's been on.

I mean lets get real -- Obama barely knows Ayers, and it is supposed to be a big deal. I'm sure McCain has known plenty of creeps in his day.


"Barely knows" is a bit too far off, imho (0.00 / 0)
Come on, they worked together on the same board. Ayers wasn't just a neighbor. The whole issue isn't something that Obama has to excuse for or soemthing, he didn't do anything wrong. But going into ridiculous denial about the whole thing will make Obama supporters look dishonest. Pls don't.

[ Parent ]
not in my opinion (0.00 / 0)
Being on a board with somebody does not mean you get to know somebody closely. Even the NY Times article today says they weren't close.

There are plenty of people who work at my office that I barely know. But God forbid I run for office and it turns out one of them was a radical forty years ago.


[ Parent ]
One of those bombs killed a police officer (0.00 / 0)
and blinded another. There's evidence that both Ayers and Dohm were involved. Now, do you think this was part of an ethical justifiable resistance against the Vietnam war? Did those two police officers started it, maybe? Sry, but this can't be excused. No apologism for terrorists, pls.

...and another three blew themselves up (4.00 / 1)
Obviously it was a really stupid idea. But if we're gonna have to waste a campaign talking about this crap, let's at least talk about the murderers on the other side too.

[ Parent ]
And Bill Maher showed .. (0.00 / 0)
last night .. Palin & the witch doctor at her church ... which Dem. 527's ought to be ready to run .. should McCain go heavy into the Ayres/Wright nonsense

[ Parent ]
Well, this is the ethical question (0.00 / 0)
Do mass murders on one side excuse the killing of innocents by the other side? I tend to say "no", even though I admit it depends on the actual circumstances.

And imho the best way to not let this become a big discussion point is not to defend Bill Ayers. Instead, emphasize the fact that Obama only had a very limited relationship with him and never endorsed his views in any way.


[ Parent ]
Nobody's defending Bill Ayers (0.00 / 0)
(Nobody I've heard anyway.) I'm just suggesting a counterattack. Anyone who's read their Lakoff will know that replying with "Obama only worked with a terrorist briefly" is a terrible idea.

[ Parent ]
That's good (0.00 / 0)
even though I'm still concerned about you focussing so much on Ayers, and drawing that comparison with Kissinger. This sure looks a bit like defending Ayers. And we liberals should be awfully careful to not present such an image, since this would really be a scoop for the rethuglicans.

[ Parent ]
No one is defending Ayres ... (0.00 / 0)
what we are basically saying is ... the old stones and glass houses saying .. lets face it .. the Republicans have plenty of thugs and murders in their ranks .. including .. if you believe Vince Bugliosi(the guy who put Manson in prison for good) .. GWB himself

[ Parent ]
Hold on (4.00 / 1)
"mass murders on one side" vs "killing of innocents by the other side"

Ayers is not an advisor to Obama.  He knew him yes.  Obama hasn't defended what the guy did.  Why don't we ask a right winger about Kissinger?  I guarantee they will defend his actions.

There is no moral equivalence between knowing a former terrorist and how the right treats Kissinger.  Ayers is not some hero to the left generally nor Obama specifically.


[ Parent ]
you're missing the point (0.00 / 0)
This isn't "apologism." It's exposing hypocrisy.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss

[ Parent ]
Imho those nuances will be lost upon the public (0.00 / 0)
And what has this to do with Obama, anyhow? This election isn't about that old Kissinger or the Vietnam desaster. Hmm, didn't Aaron just say not to waste campaign time on such  crap???  

[ Parent ]
There's "evidence"? "Involved"? (0.00 / 0)
So now just being accused is good enough? There's also evidence that McCain was neck deep in the S&L scandal crimes. Obama has held back on that so far. But if McCain chooses to change the standard, well... so it goes.

As to the ethics, I always thought murder was murder. But the winners write the ethics, so I guess murdering one is more important than murdering thousands. But I'll take your advice to heart and not make apologies for the terrorists who murdered our rightful Brit rulers. (This has nothing to do with Ayers, really, just my disgust with the unthinking, pious parroting of ruling class "ethics".)


[ Parent ]
Ayers started the weathermen (0.00 / 0)
That's not a controversial fact. Good enough for me to speak of involvement. Not to mention that Miranda may prevent evidence from being admissible at court, but facts still remain facts.  

[ Parent ]
Disastrous and Stupid (4.00 / 1)
Please do not take this personally as I'm talking about how to handle the Ayers issue strategically, but Gray's comment and the ones that follow show precisely how Obama should NOT respond.

Obama was eight years old when "the shit went down, man," and pointing that out should serve as a segue to highlight Obama's long history of charitable activism, much maligned by Republicans, but often done on behalf of organized religion.  

To attack Obama's charity work is to attack the work of the Catholic Church and other religious organizations, period end.  Can Republicans defend yoking the McCormick Theological Seminary with terrorism?   I think not.  


[ Parent ]
Who did attack Obama's charity work??? (0.00 / 0)
What are you talking about? How SHOULD Obama respond? By attacking the GOP for the Vietnam war? Ridiculous!  

[ Parent ]
Message (4.00 / 1)
What did I say about Vietnam?

The point was one about what Obama should say in response to the impending attacks.  I merely submit that a scholastic ethical disquisition that looks to distinguish between description and cause to assign blame regarding the actions of Ayers and the Weather Underground is a losing one.  We need not waste our time condemning the actions of 60s radicals in the mode suggested by your simplistic "no apologism for terrorists" slogan.  

Leaving the complicated history of the demise of SDS aside, Obama had nothing to do with what happened in the 60s and shouldn't take it up.  He was eight years old.  The people that have associated with Ayers, if you avail yourself of the link I provided to the Woods Foundation, are from a number of walks of life, many of them religious in institutional orientation.

The way to handle this is to yoke criticism of Obama's charitable activities with criticism of religious philanthropy.  There's a far more salient connection there than anything involving Obama and the Weathermen, PLP, etc.


[ Parent ]
Absolutely right. (0.00 / 0)
And I'm confident Obama will pretty much go this route. Nobody's interested in the tired old 60s crap. All this concern mongering is just more worrying about what the wingnuts will think. Get over it. Nobody cares.

It's going to be especially hard now that the Pork Queen proclaimed to Biden that "for a ticket that wants to talk about change and looking into the future, there's just too much finger pointing backwards to make us think that's where you're going."  


[ Parent ]
8 years old (0.00 / 0)
and it probably wasn't covered in his text books in grade school!!!

[ Parent ]
Nonpartisan Charity Work (0.00 / 0)
It's my understanding that people of all political stripes affiliated themselves with the Woods Fund of Chicago.

Someone with more time than me might look into the background of the board members and other associates to see what fat wallet Rockefeller Republicans also commiserated with Ayers.  

Given that the economic crisis will not go away with the passage of this bill, expect Obama to trump McCain's Bill Ayers card with the Keating Five and put this bs to bed.  

The Ayers stuff is nothing more than a continuation of the attacks on Obama's community organizing work for the Catholic Church.  Much like the attempts to portray Clinton as a Communist sympathizer in 1992, yoking Obama with 60s radicalism, while an effective ploy for the GOP in the past, will seem farcical this time around.  Somewhere, Karl Marx is smiling.



Now, this sounds like a good idea (0.00 / 0)
"look into the background of the board members and other associates to see what fat wallet Rockefeller Republicans also commiserated with Ayers."

Yup! This would provide a good counterarguement.    


[ Parent ]
Vetting (0.00 / 0)
Republicans think Obama should vet his neighbors and fellow board members more carefully then McCain vets his Vice Presidential nominee.

Just saying.


And McCain (0.00 / 0)
sure wasn't dropping Hershey kisses over Vietnam before he got shot down.  

I was 8 years old (4.00 / 1)
No nuance needed.

Colbert: "Why was Obama hanging out with terrorists when he was 8 years old?" (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
CSPAN often a harbinger of coming smear campaigns (4.00 / 1)
Back in '04 I remember seeing a barely-noticed "press conference" held by the Swiftboaters accusing Kerry of being a coward, traitor and liar on CSPAN, months before the establishment media picked it up, or the RNC began to sell it to them. Now they're testing out the coming twin smear campaigns against Obama and Dems, by connecting him to Ayers and his evil band of Murca-haters, and by pinning the entire blame for this fiscal meltdown on Dems (CRA, Frank and Dodd blocking regulation, repeal of GS, etc.).

It's seeped into the establishment media, but not as much as I expect it to in the coming weeks. CSPAN is the RNC's testing ground for new smear campaigns (which Brian Lamb always seems eager to oblige them on), and I think that they're now putting the finisihing touches on what promises to be the most vicious, mean-spirited, dishonest, and desperate smear campaign in many, many years.

I don't think it'll work. In fact, I expect it to backfire, as Obama's already won over too many people in ways that neither Gore nor Kerry did, the public's in no mood for bullshit, and McCain just doesn't know how to pull off this sort of thing properly, even with the help of the likes of Schmidt and Rove (nor, I belive, is his heart truly in it--deep down I think that he knows that he's going to lose, and is just trying to go down as a fighter, just as he did in Vietnam).

What a bunch of pathetic, slimy, petty, small-minded ratfuckers these Republicreeps are, if this is what they're left with. The world economy is coming apart, the mideast and central Asia are roiling with unrest, the icecaps are melting, and this is what they come up with.

No won has ever deserved to lose--and lose miserably--as much as these assholes.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Hundreds of Educators speak out on Ayers-Obama "terrorist connection" (0.00 / 0)
In regards to the Obama-Ayers connection, hundreds of educators who know Ayers personally are speaking out in his defense and in response to the media's use of this "terrorist connection".

-- http://www.supportbillayers.org


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