Walking And Chewing Gum

by: Paul Rosenberg

Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:03


Can a comparison be both illuminating and misleading?  You decide.

Kos:

Douthat:

This is what a lot of conservatives are going to be telling themselves after election day: That Obama cheated, that the media cheated, that McCain wasn't a conservative anyway, and that the only reason Sarah Palin wasn't a hit with swing voters is that the press - with an assist from conservative quislings like Frum and Brooks and Parker and Noonan - poisoned the well. And in such thinking lies the seeds of years or even decades of defeat.

I took a lot of flack from my own side in late 2004 (or was it early 2005?) when I purged this site of those I called "fraudsters" -- people who blamed our 2004 loss on voting machines and other Republican trickery. While there was systemic disenfranchisement of our voters in key states (like Ken Blackwell's Ohio), no Diebold trickery was needed to steal that election. Yet the obsession on those conspiracy theories by too many detracted from the true reform our party needed to undertake before it could win again.

My take?  This is hatchet-think when we need a scalpel. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.  Plus, Howard Dean was going to launch his 50-state strategy, with or without the help of 50 or 100 or 200 DKos diarists and their commenters and readers.

More fundamentally, the issues raised by the majority of "fraudsters" (myself among them) were not limited to claims that Kerry won, but touched on a variety of issues that even now have yet to be robustly addressed.  Indeed, some never even claimed that Kerry won at all. Other issues included voters rights, election integrity, Democrats standing up to GOP bullying and criminality, and Kerry breaking his word about fighting to see that every vote would be counted.  Georgia10 did a marvelous job of continually summarizing developments and articulating concerns, and her work alone was sufficient to demonstrate the complexity that Kos's mischaracterization seeks to erase.  Additionally, I wrote a diary "OHIO & Lakoff: The Right Wing Power Grab Frame" in which I wrote:

What matters to me most about Ohio are 3 things: (1) Racism. (2) Voter Suppression. (3) The Right Wing Power Grab.  

And another one, after that, "A Fighting Faith: OH, Democracy, Lakoff & Chris Bowers ", in which I drew on Chris's analysis that:....

Paul Rosenberg :: Walking And Chewing Gum
(a) This was a battle of the bases, and the GOP won because it had a bigger base:...

(b) To level the playing field, we must grow the number of self-identified liberals and shrink the number of self-identified conservatives....

(c) This is not about the argument of whether the party should move left or right....  It is about strengthening the party's brand-a brand it has been running away from for almost 30 years, but can never escape....

(d) We have a major recruiting opportunity on the issue of political reform.

Here is that section of my diary, reproduced in full:

(2) The Bowers Analysis.

 In the wake of the 2004 election, Chris Bowers went on an analytic tear, beginning with some very serious nitty-gritting number crunching, and then moving on to a broader analysis of what it all meant. Four points that he developed are relevant here:

(a) This was a battle of the bases, and the GOP won because it had a bigger base: There are more self-identified conservatives than self-identified liberals. Self-identified conservatives vote heavily for the GOP, self-identified liberals vote heavily for the Dems. This means that Dems always have to win self-identified moderates by a significant margin.

In "Conservatism Is Our Enemy" Bowers put it like this:

In all of my post-election analysis, when all of the tactical ideas are put aside, I keep coming back to a single, basic idea: conservatives are the enemy, and conservatism as an ideology is our main roadblock to electoral success.

We have long since left the era when the two parties could accurately be considered regional and ethnic coalitions rather than ideological coalitions. There are no longer any more conservative Democrats than there are liberal Republicans. A few of each kind manage to hang on, but the ideological vote in this election was clear:

                   Bush  Kerry  Margin
Conservative  84      15       69
 Liberal            13      85       72

Bowers also presented a state-by-state demonstration of what this meant in his storyWhere Is Liberalism?. The only states in which liberals outnumber conservatives are DC, MA, VT, RI, HI, NY, CT, and NJ. And, he commented in a followup story, "The difference between the number of liberals and the number of conservatives is so great in this country, that only in states worth 275 electoral votes is the liberal vote, plus a double-digit lead among moderates, enough to pull out a victory."

  (b) To level the playing field, we must grow the number of self-identified liberals and shrink the number of self-identified conservatives.  This entails a committed project of (1) vigorously attacking conservatism,  (2) defining liberals in terms of a few short phrases that create strong, positive frames and (3) defending liberalism vociferously. These ideas were discussed in a number of stories Chris did, (such as "Conservatism Is Our Enemy", "Real Conservative Values", and "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?") as well as MyDD's first "Book Discussion," which was actually about Phil Agre's essay,  "What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong With It?"

(c) This is not about the argument of whether the party should move left or right, Bowers argued, particularly in stories such as "Moving and Moving, Part Two: If The Question is Wrong, The Answer Will Follow. It is about strengthening the party's brand-a brand it has been running away from for almost 30 years, but can never escape. To clarify: Democrats have to defend liberalism, whether or not they personally identify as liberals. This only seems hard or even contradictory because Democrats have been in denial and on the defensive for so long. Moderate Republicans do this sort of thing all the time with conservatism, which is a much harder sell.

(d) We have a major recruiting opportunity on the issue of political reform. Best just to quote from Chris's story "Eureka! Or How To Break the Republican Majority Coalition":

I believe it is possible to break the majority Republican coalition, which is primarily an ideological coalition of conservatives against liberals, and create a majority Democratic coalition that will last for at least two or three decades, by liberalizing / progressivizing the 10-15% of the population that is currently primarily reform minded and non-ideological (and thus has a strong tendency to support major third-party efforts). While it is currently non-ideological, this segment of the population, which has existed in large numbers since at least the 1880's, has an outlook on politics that is far more closely allied with liberalism than conservatism because of its emphasis on reform....

Our future success is not predicated upon moving to the left or the right, but rather in our ability to move from the inside to the outside in the national political frame. This is something we succeeded in doing in the past . This is something that Republicans learned immediately following the Perot movement of 1992, and executed so brilliantly in their 1994 "Contract with America," campaign. The Contract With America was filled almost entirely with reformist, rather than conservative, legislative proposals. Conservatives won, and are currently in power, because they swung the reformer vote their way, even though our coalition is a more natural fit for such voters. We can change this and set things right. Howard Dean as DNC chair is a darn good place to start.

While we've made enormous strides since I wrote that diary on January 04, 2005, we have yet to make the issue of political reform central to our work, and as a direct result, demonstably criminal elements of the GOP are mounting an attack on us the Democratic Party base of progressives and minorities, with a focal point on ACORN, the largest community-based organization in the country.

Our failure to come together decisively around this issue before this election has given the right an opening to attempt a re-run of their 1990s full-time campaign to delegitimize the Clinton Administration. This time, the stakes are much, much higher.  It's not at all clear if our country, and the very idea of modern civilization will survive.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.  In fact, we have no choice.

The only choise we have is spearmint or cinnamon.


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But is anyone buying this? (0.00 / 0)
Our failure to come together decisively around this issue before this election has given the right an opening to attempt a re-run of their 1990s full-time campaign to delegitimize the Clinton Administration.

What I mean by that is .. McCain tried to raise holy hell last night about ACORN .. considering what is happening in the economy and such .. do people really care about that?  I doubt it ... and Bush has so damaged the Conservative/Republican brand .. that people will be skeptical of claims made by Republicans for a while


The Media and DC Elites Are Buying It (4.00 / 5)
A lot more than you'd imagine.  This is a serious problem, and ACORN is not taking it lying down.

But this involves a whole lot more than ACORN.  There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of voters whose votes are at risk this November, just for starters.  This is political war and the election coming up is just one battle.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Paul ... (4.00 / 1)
have you been to any Obama meetings in your area lately? .. just curious .. because while I canvassed for Obama in the PA primary .. I'd never actually been to an organized meeting .. the one last night .. it was amazing .. probably 250 to 300 people showed up .. and they one of the things they addressed were having voter protection teams .. meaning that if you had problems at the polls .. you are to call the local Obama office .. and they'd be on it swiftly .. the Obama campaign isn't taking anything lying down

[ Parent ]
That's what drove me crazy (4.00 / 1)
I worked for Kerry in 2004. I had a front row seat to what they were doing to protect the vote. I was one of the goddamn people actually at a polling location looking out for voters. Most of the fraudsters clearly hadn't done shit to help the campaign, because if they did, they wouldn't have been so damn ignorant about what was going on. Some knew so little about the process that I'm pretty sure they never even voted.

If anybody is worried about protecting the vote, they need to march their ass down to their local Democratic headquarters and volunteer for their neighborhood team.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
Excuse Me, But... (4.00 / 4)
First off: One of the things I wrote about for Random Lengths News in 2004 was a few local people who were doing campaign work in battleground states (we're in Los Angeles, so there wasn't that much in doubt locally.)  One of those people was a former attorney for the Port of LA, and naturally he was put into the election protection network, so I intereviewed him a couple of times.

What happened was quite simple: they were pulled out immediately after Election Day. There were no plans whatsoever for doing followup.  Which correspended exactly with what you saw the day afterwards when Edwards promised to fight until the last vote was counted (which is what Kerry had previously said he would do) and then Kerry over-ruled him within a few hours.

Second:  Of course there were some folks who were just conspiracy nuts.  And there were some who were caught by surprise and maybe hadn't been involved before, or else phonebnked from a blue state homefront, and didn't have any sort of front-line experience.  But there were also a good number of in-state activists who were tearing their hair out over what was happening in Ohio, whether or not it would have changed the electoral outcome.  And this pattern has continued on through the first two years of SoS Jennifer Brunner's term, in which a lot of her fellow Democrats still don't seem to understand the problems she's trying to deal with.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
What exactly did you observe? (4.00 / 1)
Don't tell us you actually see the bits and bytes in the voting machines move, because that's impossible. And that's the disturbing point with voting machines: You can't observe how they count the vote. Even with a paper trail you have no certainty, because most people don't check the recipe. So, since 2004, many election officials have changed their stance and are much more critical about touch sreen equippment. That's because of the relentless work of bloggers who qestioned the integrity of those machines.

Election watchers, on the other hand, have no real insight whatever into what may be going on in the machines and provide only a false sense of security. It's not toally useless, but it doesn't help against the hacking of the equippement at all.

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter


[ Parent ]
That's Good To Hear, But It's Only One Piece of the Puzzle (4.00 / 4)
For example, when Obama was asked about ACORN, what he said was basically good--not great, but good.  But what was missing, then, was a look at the larger picture, and this is what's crucial.  He needed to talk about how blacks and Asians and Latinos--and poor whites, too--had been disenfranchised for so long, and how hard the GOP had worked to keep it that way when the Civil Rights Movement really got geared up in the 50s and 60s.  He needed to talk about the lawsuit and the consent agreement that the GOP had been forced to signm agreeing to stop its most eggregious practices.  He needed to give people a full historical picture.  And he didn't do that.

All of us need to be working on spreading that sort of awareness.  That's the big picture battle, and right now, we're not just not winning it.  In most cases, we're not even fighting it.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I also want to comment on that Douthat quote ... (0.00 / 0)
the Republicans are in denial .. they complain that McCain hasn't gotten a fair shake in the TradMed ... were they paying attention last night? .. John King and Andrea Greenspan couldn't hop on the tire swing fast enough .. hell .. they can't even take constructive critique ... it tells me they'll spend a long time in the political wilderness

Ugh. (0.00 / 0)
Either I have to stop reading the lefty blogs or the feminist blogs, because the transition is really jarring. I'm generally a big fan of your commentary, but Andrea Mitchell does have a right to be considered independently of her husband. Although that's positively feminist compared to the dude who commented here that Palin couldn't keep "play with the big boys." Sigh.  

[ Parent ]
Kos was right (0.00 / 0)
Among the fraudsters there were a handful of people who were actually serious about election reform, and good for them. But 90% were really a tinfoil-hat brigade. The grand conspiratorial tapestries that were woven could be hung in the Louvre. At best they were useless noise. At worst, they served to discredit those who actually serious about voting reform.

It's just like the 9/11 truthers, or the nuts that Kos purged for insinuating that Bush was behind the London bombings, or the people who earnestly thought that Bush blew up the levees in New Orleans, or people who think the Moon landings were faked, or people who whisper in conspiratorial tones about secret cabals of "international bankers."

There are some people who will believe any stupid idea as long as it fits their world-view. They're like that batty lady at the McCain rally that said Obama was an Arab. She had other kooks with whom she traded various fevered dreams, but she can't actually engage in any kind of rational thought.

They're all destined for Jon Stewart's "You're Not Helping" segment. And really, most of them are just swapping stories on DU or wherever, and aren't actually out pounding the pavement and doing the hard work to get Democrats elected.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


The thing I remember best about the fraud argument (4.00 / 1)
was that it wasn't an arugment.

Example: Bush led Kerry in Ohio in 10 of the last 11 polls.  I must have posted that fact 50 times - and no one EVER responded to the argument.  

Contrary data just didn't interest the vast majority of those pushing the fraud line.  


[ Parent ]
They were interested in the contrary data (0.00 / 0)
For them, contrary data just enhanced the righteousness of their position. They're like creationists.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
You're Overlooking Two Things (4.00 / 2)
First of all, there actually was election fraud in Ohio, starting with the Secretary of State.  (There were even court rulling to prove it.)  Which is fundametally different from the other groups you try to draw comparisons with.  And precisely because there was a factual foundation, that was all the more reason to deal with it soberly and factually.  Kos did not. It was just that simple.

Second, there's always a tendency for the more speculative and even hysterical voices to rush in when there's a vacuum created by those with more resources, experience, and factually-grounded hold back--or worse, deliberately bail out of--any sort of discussion.  Having participated in various comment threads about Ohio, I think that the 90% figure is both exaggerated, and reflective of paying more attention to volume of writing than to the views of sheer numbers of people.  In short: if Kos and other front-pagers had addressed the serious concerns that were being raised, then there would have been a lot less high-profile visibility for those who were least rational and fact-based in their arguments.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Kos was wrong (4.00 / 2)
He didn't differentiate between serious people, who had the knowledge to investigate the possibility of digital vote fraud, and the tinfoil gang. He simply banned them all. If KOS would have had his way, the US still would vote with ridiculously unsafe machines everywhere. It's only because of the determination of people like Brad Friedman that the situation is slowly improving.

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter

[ Parent ]
THANK YOU! (4.00 / 4)
I read Kos' post and immediately was turned off by its self righteous ham-handedness.  Thanks for making your point!  

I can see where his frustration was coming from.  People who spend all their time looking at the need for voter reform, without doing the work of building the party brand and getting our people elected, are just another 'special interest' group.  

We need to do all of these things and when we talk about what we each are passionately working on, show respect for what others feel called to do.  

We can both.


second the motion (4.00 / 1)
thanks for posting this. The voting machines are insecure at best and it is not possible to say that they are not rigged.

Thanks to Keith Olbermann, Avi Rubin, Kim Zetter, The Daily Show, the entire Slashdot community, and the many others who pursued this story when Kos and others were heaping scorn upon it. Some people simply don't want to entertain the possibility that the voting machines could be stealing the entire country. Certainly we cannot prove that. Neither can you say that the count represents how people voted. We must not rest until we have secure voting systems.

Paper! Accept no substitutes!


[ Parent ]
Side note (4.00 / 1)
"I came here to kick ass and chew gum, and I'm all out of gum".

"Never be afraid to stand with the minority when the minority is right, for the minority which is right will one day be the majority." -William Jennings Bryan

The bradblog has proven that voting machines aren't safe (4.00 / 2)
And that they can manipulated in a way that leaves no traces behind. It's because of the relentless work of Brad Firedman and others that election officials start to take a harder look at their equippment. This can only be good for the integrity of the vote. Imho Kos isn't doing Democrats a favor by ridiculing and banning those who investigate possible vote fraud.

Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested, we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back, nor did we falter

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