State and National Polling Are Not Divergent

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Oct 29, 2008 at 15:00


There is no question that the tracking polls have tightened compared to where they were from October 21st through October 27th (though not from where they were from October 15th through October 20th). However, I just did the 2:00 p.m. update to the Presidential Forecast, and state polling has pushed Obama out to his most secure lead of the entire campaign. And I added a lot of polls:

Five new Pennsylvania polls, four new Ohio polls, two new Florida polls,  plus one new poll each from Colorado, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Virginia and Wisconsin added. Obama drops slightly in Florida, holds steady in Ohio, and improves everywhere else.

Obama's state by state situation is improving, even as the Pollster.com national tracker has dropped from Obama +8.8% on Saturday (his all-time peak) to Obama +5.8% today. However, according to my forecast, Obama now reaches 273 electoral votes in states where he leads by 8.3% or more, and hits 311 electoral in states where he leads by 6.5% or more. As I will discuss later in the day, I'm not alone in showing this vast Obama statewide lead, either. No doubt, on the surface it appears difficult to reconcile the tracking polls over the last couple of days with the state polling released over the same time period.

A partial explanation comes from the 2004 election, which Kerry lost nationally by 2.5%. Given 2004 results in the three most heavily polled swing states, Florida (Bush +5.0%), Ohio (Bush +2.1%) and Pennsylvania (Kerry +2.5%), and given an 8.3% national swing, those states are almost exactly where they should be right now. In my forecast, I have Obama +3.3% in Florida, which is 0.0% away from the expected result. In Ohio, I have Obama at +6.5%, only 0.3% away from the expected result. In Pennsylvania, I have Obama at +11.2%, only 0.4% away from the expected result. So, a partial answer is that there is no discrepancy between state polls and national polls, at least in the largest swing states. Earlier state and national polling diverged from one another in these states, but current state and national polling does not. This explanation also works for Wisconsin, where Obama is within 0.2% of his expected result given the national swing from 2004, and Missouri, where he is within 0.8%.

Still, that leaves a bunch of state polling in conflict with national polls. This week's polls from Colorado, Iowa, Georgia, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina are all 2-4% more favorable to Obama than a simple 8.3% swing from 2004 can explain. In these cases, it can probably be chalked to a combination of several factors, including polling error, changing demographics, and improved Democratic campaign organization in these states. While 2-4% is a bit of a shift, it is not so large that a combination of such factors fail to provide a complete explanation.

This leaves Indiana, Montana, North Dakota and Virginia, where Obama is running between 7% and 12% of where he should be. However, Obama is equally under-performing relative to 2004 in a different handful of states, including Arkansas, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Rather than a broad difference, it seems to simply be a regional shift.

So, there is your explanation for the state poll and national poll discrepancy: there isn't much of one at all.

Chris Bowers :: State and National Polling Are Not Divergent

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TIPP (4.00 / 1)
Down a point from 47.7% 43.7% to 46.9% 43.9% but Obama ticked up a point with indies. Weighting, my friends, weighting.  

People should really check out these wacky internals (4.00 / 1)
Particularly age.

[ Parent ]
What about Ras internal math errors, Chris? (0.00 / 0)
Do you have an explanation for that in their daily tracking?

It's their "likely voter" screen! (0.00 / 0)
According to Rasmussen: Obama leads by 10% among early voters. Among those who haven't yet voted, but say they are certain to vote, it's a TIE.

Then there are those who say they PLAN on voting but "something might happen that would prevent them from voting." Obama leads by 5% among this group.

Hispanics happen to be heavily represented among this group.

Such voters are very probably getting screened out of the "likely voter" model which causes the poll to "narrow."

We're seeing a conflict between all the "likely voter" models!

Gallup shows a 2% lead among "traditional" voters, i.e. those who voted in the past, but a 5% Obama lead among "expanded" "likely voters" meaning those who are determined to vote this time, but are new voters.

So, Gallup provides TWO polls to cover their asses on the question "will those new voters turn out or not?" If they do, as they did in the primaries, then Obama wins comfortably by 5% or so.

But, if they don't then it's a razor thin margin of around 3% or so.

Obama would probably still win based on winning either Virginia or Colorado or Nevada (which would get him to 269). He's bound to win at least 1 of those states and hold Pennsylvania.

But, McCain could HOPE to win if Obama's GOTV efforts fall flat on election day, or are simply matched by the Republicans' own GOTV efforts.

To an extent, that is what is likely to happen. But, Obama has a sizeable lead in early voting states. They are determined to bank their votes and prevent any kind of voter disenfranchisement from cheating them out of their votes this time.

And the key for this is Colorado, Virginia, Ohio and Florida.  


[ Parent ]
You are the one who showed me (0.00 / 0)
that state polls always lage the national averages.  Basically, if true, we should start to see tightening in the states, 4 days after tightening in the national.  Why wouldn't this be the case here?

Because of the recent volume of state polling (4.00 / 3)
State polling has surpassed national polling in terms of overall volume. So, there isn't a lag anymore.

[ Parent ]
I kept suggesting that this was possible... (0.00 / 0)
And everyone keeps saying that I'm wrong because the polls are cnoducted at the same time as the nationals.  I still remain skeptical, but hopeful, that I'm wrong and that the current strength in state polling continues.

[ Parent ]
Even then it wouldn't be the end of the world (0.00 / 0)
Obama has already banked votes and his ground game should be enough to pull in tossups - McCain won't be able to get back to anything beyond that in state polls.

[ Parent ]
Yes... (0.00 / 0)
I think his firewall is pretty solid, and NV looks to be moving into that firewall as well.  With Kerry + IA + NM + CO + VA + NV, Obama could afford to lose FL, OH, AND PA (as well as all the other "tossups" that Obama currently leads in), and still pull off the 270 EVs he needs.

That said, I'm greedy am still hoping for a massive blowout that will basically make everyone's head explode.  So a narrowing to even a 5 point race is slightly disappointing to me, even if it is more realistic. =)


[ Parent ]
Eh, dosen't make sense (0.00 / 0)
If you're going to make that prediction, you're going to have to provide an explanation for why the population answering to national polls changes their mind faster than the population answering to state polls. Good luck coming up with a mechanism for that...

The only reason they ever lagged before was because state polls were conducted less frequently, so you often had to look at an old poll to get state data, whereas you always had a current national poll. Now all the swing states are being polled every day by somebody, so you always have data that's just as current as the national polls.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
Is there any evidence that the Obama ground game is propping up his numbers in swing states? (4.00 / 1)
Have there been any national pollsters that have separated swing state numbers from safe state numbers to test whether or not the Obama ground game is disproportionately helping him in swing states?  
Conversely is Obama doing worse than expected in non-swing states than would be expected based on national polling?

Perhaps this could also explain some national tightening while swing states that are/were considered a reach, like North Carolina and Missouri are still polling dead even.


This is a very interesting to suggestion (0.00 / 0)
Seems plausible.

[ Parent ]
Of course it is (0.00 / 0)
Obama is running a larger campaign in terms of field, paid media, paid staff, and really everything. That campaign is focused in about 17 states. And so, of course, Obama will be doing better in those 17 states than he will be doing overall.

[ Parent ]
Im nervous (0.00 / 0)
Throw $1000 long on McCain on Intrade.  You can't loose.  Either you get an awesome payout if he wins or an Obama presidency

That's bad for the soul (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I must confess... (0.00 / 0)

 ...that exact same idea popped into my head on my commute home this afternoon.

 Thing is, I'd rather be middle-class in a free and prosperous country than rich in a fascist one. If I bet $1000 on a McCain presidency and Obama won, I'd be ecstatic.

 But being non-rich AND living under fascism would suck harder than a Michael Bolton weekend radio marathon. So hedging one's bets makes a certain amount of sense...


"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Your headline is misleading (4.00 / 1)
A fine post, except your headline made my stomach churn for a sec before I actually read the post.  Where your headline announces that state and national polls are "closer than it appears" - that makes it sound like you're saying the election is tighter than the polling numbers indicate, rather than that the discrepancy between state and national polling is less than it appears.

Sorry about that (4.00 / 1)
Fixed the title

[ Parent ]
scary title (0.00 / 0)
From the title, I was expecting a major revelation about McCain doing better "than it appears." It took me a couple paragraphs to realize you were building a case for "State and National Polling Closer polls closer to each other Than It Appears".  

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue

they're both right (4.00 / 1)
The states where Obama is overperforming are states which either have an established ground game investment by the Obama campaign, a larger-than-average AA population, or both. And the states where he is underperforming lack both.

This accounts for the discrepancy between the national trackers and state polls. The trackers treat all 50 states equally, while the Obama campaign does not. McCain is likely making his gain in non-battleground states, which could keep the popular vote margin within 3-4 points, but Obama's emphasis on the right states could simultaneously produce an EV landslide.


Good point (0.00 / 0)

 The Obama campaign had the delegate math all gamed out for the primaries, and it worked well for them (though not without a little bit of sweating). I'd hope this indicates that they've taken the same approach with the Electoral College.

  So if the national trackers simply mean that McCain's going to win Alabama by an extra 30,000 votes, I can live with that.

  The ground game in PA is very robust, at least as far as I can tell from my experience in Adams County (Gettysburg and environs). And anybody reading this within driving distance is hereby summoned to get his or her butt to PA this weekend.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Question (0.00 / 0)
What specifically does the 8.3% "national swing" number mean and how are you computing it? Is it the sum of Obama's current 5.8 lead plus the 2.5 margin of loss by Kerry in 2004?

I took a stab at your Rasmussen rounding today... (0.00 / 0)
and best case McCain, worst case Obama with the new party IDs gave me:  Obama 50.7  McCain 46.48

How that became Obama 50 McCain 47, I have no clue.


I get similar results (0.00 / 0)
51-46 in most scenarios, but 50.7-46.5 in the most extreme scenario. That's it, I'm going to email him.

[ Parent ]
It's the ground game (0.00 / 0)
The states where Obama is disproportionately improved over 2004 are states where there is a strong field campaign this year and they weren't contested before - Indiana, Montana, North Dakota, and Virginia.  These states have not been contested in a national election for decades so there is a big pool of Democratic voters who can be turned out for the first time.  Same is true of Georgia and North Carolina where Obama is outperforming to a lesser degree.

Another point - tracking polls only call once, while other polls (except Rasmussen, who generally leans R in his state polls) call back to those not home.  Since married people with children are more likely to be home, and they lean more Republican, tracking polls will tend to have a little R bias.


Eary Vote Ground Game in North Carolina (0.00 / 0)
Something is going on in North Carolina's early vote that suggests a huge ground game for Obama.  Right now nearly 45%  of those who voted in 2004 have already voted with 54% being Democrats and 28% Republicans. Either all the Republicans are waiting to vote on November 4th or NC is showing signs of swinging Obama.  

[ Parent ]
i'm confused (0.00 / 0)
does this explain why the trend in national (tracking) polling is slightly downward while state polling is flat or improving?  that seems to be what the state/national polling discrepancy is.

Are we allowed to mention (0.00 / 0)
that the states you list where he is underperforming are Appalachian and Ozarkian?

I look at polls and actions (4.00 / 1)
I look at the polls like everyone else, but I also look at the following activies:

1. Mitch Daniels refused to be seen on stage with Sarah Palin in Indiana.
2. Elizabeth Dole only reluctantly allowed hersself to be seen with John McCain.
3. Republican incumbents are sending emails and commericals urging people to split their tickets and vote for them downballot.
4. Romney is making every effort he can to write McCain off publicly.
5. No one has come to McCain or Palin's defense regarding the rumors of bickering and backstabbing.
6. I have not see one Republican outside the McCain campaign that is optimistic.
7. The McCain campaign just bought time in West Virginia and Georgie. The RNC is up in Montana.
8. THREE polls showing it's close in Arizona.
9. Joe Liebermann is saying more good things about Obama.
10. State parties are having falling-outs with McCain in public and Gov. Crist expanded early voting in FL.

These are not the actions of a party that feels good about their chances. On the other hand:

1. Janet Napolitano wants Obama to send money to AZ.
2. The DSCC and DCCC are pushing deeper into red states and districts.

Am I reading too much into all of this?


Take them all together (0.00 / 0)

 Any ONE of those would be no big deal, and no single one of them is "proof" that McCain is floundering. But the COMBINATION of all those items you mentioned does suggest a very bleak picture for John McCain.

 One more weekend. Pedal to the metal.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
One reason people are nervous (4.00 / 1)
I think one reason for the concern is that, while there are a lot of state polls out there, many seem to be from outfits or organizations that have not been very visible until recently.  Thus, there may be a tendency for people to wonder whether those polls are as accurate as the polls coming from the larger organizations, doing the national tracking.

Graph It (0.00 / 0)
This would look good as a 3D bar graph.

The X axis would be the individual states, and the Y axis is the level of support.
You have 3 rows of bars.
In the back is a bar per state for (2004 PV + current national shift) ... thus the expected current polling result.
In front of that is a bar per state for actual current polling result.
Then in foreground is a bar per state for resource investment by campaign in that state.

The states can be sorted left-to-right based on difference between expected and actual.

The resource investment could be any one of: # volunteers; $ spent; hours of advertising w/in some specific kind of media;
campaign visits or events of a certain kind; events by a certain surrogate; degree of campaign focus on a key concern in that state, etc

The same graphing could be done with demographic segments, regions instead of states, any subset you had polling for.

This graph will show that some states are very sensitive to shifts in national poll numbers, others less so.
And some states are very sensitive to certain kinds of investment, others less.

If you made these graphs over time, correlated with the flow of events that occurred in the campaign, it may turn out that these sensitivities themselves
vary based on what else is going on, event-wise in the world or election contest.

If you could show the graph evolving as an animation, it would show wave dynamics, focussing and building across regions ...
a wave-o-rythmic chart.

You could then see how to best shift state-level numbers, either by revving up national movement, making specific investments,
and doing either of these in coordination with shifting circumstances as they arise.

You could then make a playbook out of it, taylored to each region or demographic; describing how to best reach each region and in what sequence or with what kind of relationships between the regions.

Each political party would have their own variant of the playbook, because each party or wing of party is essentially trying to create
a connection between the values, themes, ideals, norms they espouse, and particular regions.

The playbook would shift over time, as the nation changes; if you use outdated plays, you may get contrary results.

My guess is all states and regions are reachable by all candidates and parties, but you'd have to relate with it in a way that works.
So this could be empowering of 50-state campaigning, rather than disempowering of it.

It would be good for all parties, and the whole nation to understand how this works, because it demystifies politics, makes all citizens
feel about equally aware of the purely political, and thus reduces our elections to a contest of ideas, proposals, etc.
Then good ideas tend to win and gimmicks tend to lose.
People would feel more confident about results and their meaning, with less sense of manipulation, frustration or disconnect, so there's more unity.
Government could then work in better relationship with the nation, seeming less removed, arbitrary and the process of democracy more transparent.


Do I understand this? (0.00 / 0)
Nice analysis, Chris. Let me try to make sure. You take today's tracking poll average (+5.8) and add it to Bush's actual national margin (-2.5) and conclude that Obama is outperforming Bush by 8.3%. Then you show how the 8.3 is consistent with many of today's state polls by adding the 8.3 to Bush's margin in those states. The number you obtain is usually within 1% of current state polling. Neat!

It does seem to explain that in many of these important states, national tracking polls are not that relevant. It requires us to believe that there are regional differences which currently are producing a McCain gain in the national polls. I would guess that these regional differences are most pronounced in Appalachia and the Deep South, which are not crucial to the Obama strategy.

If I've paraphased you correctly, you have made me feel better about things. I expect to feel even better tonight, as I expect that Obama will use that half-hour very effectively.  


Why Obama can win North Carolina- from PPP (0.00 / 0)
Here's a great post from the PPP on the reasons why Obama can win North Carolina this time around.
http://publicpolicypolling.blo...

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