Turnout Assumptions: The Truth Is In Between

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Oct 30, 2008 at 23:00


In terms of polling analysis, I feel as though I have morphed into one of the bi-partisan pundit concern trolls that dominate the big media commentariat whenever Democrats have gained the upper hand in our political discourse (calls for bipartisanship were far less common, of course, during the Republican trifecta). Pretty much no matter what the polling situation is, I stick to my constant refrain "the truth is in between."

Well, I am about to start that refrain again, this time when it comes to the dueling likely voter models floating around the polling universe. Nowhere is the discrepancy between likely voter models more pronounced than in the Gallup tracking poll, which publishes two separate likely voter models every day. One likely voter model, the "traditional" model, includes questions about past voting behavior and assumes 60% turnout of the voting age population. The other, "expanded" model does not ask about past voting behavior, and makes no assumptions about national turnout.

Most Democratic-leaning election websites have decided to use the "expanded" model as the daily Gallup tracking poll number, rather than the "traditional" model. This is the case at TPM, Pollster.com, and fivethirtyeight and, it would appear, among most of the commenters I read on Open Left. I haven't taken sides in this argument before, but I actually think it is a mistake to use only the "expanded" likely voter model and discard the traditional one entirely. As I always say, the truth is in between.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Turnout Assumptions: The Truth Is In Between
In 2004, according to Dave Leip, 72.9% of registered voters had their votes recorded for President. Given ballot spoiling and invalid ballots, probably about 75% of registered voters attempted to cast a vote for President in 2004. It seems reasonable to assume that number will be either the same, or a bit higher, in 2008. However, both of the likely voter models in the current edition of the Gallup tracking poll shoot far on either side of that number. With 2,800 registered voters in their survey, Gallup uses 1,825 for their "traditional" likely voter model (65.2%) and 2,437 for their "expanded" likely voter model (87.0%). Both numbers strike me as highly unlikely, with one far too low and one far too high.

Yet again, I think the truth is in between. With the "expanded" model showing Obama +7%, and the "traditional" model showing Obama +5%, my best guess would be Obama +6%. This difference also probably goes a long way toward explaining the widely varying national polls of late, with current numbers coming in between Obama +3% and Obama +11%. The different polling methods and various forms of polling error appear to be balancing each other out, as Obama currently leads by 5.9% in Pollster.com's national regression line.

The Obama campaign will bring a lot of new voters to the polls. However, we are simply not going to reach 87% attempted turnout among registered voters. 80% might just be within reach, but 87% simply isn't going to happen. As someone who argued for months that Kerry would win 80% of the undecided vote, I believe we are all doing a disservice to ourselves by assuming such an implausible turnout wave. The best expectations are the most realistic expectations, and right now I am not at all convinced that we are being entirely realistic.


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87%--those are European numbers!!! (4.00 / 2)
And you can bet the Democrats call it "four-twenties-seven" (0.00 / 0)
Cheese-eating surrender monkeys!!!!

[ Parent ]
"the truth is in between" (4.00 / 1)
not sure I believe this.  There is no a priori reason to believe that "averaging" two results, when one of the models may simply be wrong  averaging a wrong result and the right one doesn't get you a better estimate of the right answer...

well, I thought Chris gives a good reason (0.00 / 0)
Given ballot spoiling and invalid ballots, probably about 75% of registered voters attempted to cast a vote for President in 2004. It seems reasonable to assume that number will be either the same, or a bit higher, in 2008. However, both of the likely voter models in the current edition of the Gallup tracking poll shoot far on either side of that number. With 2,800 registered voters in their survey, Gallup uses 1,825 for their "traditional" likely voter model (65.2%) and 2,437 for their "expanded" likely voter model (87.0%). Both numbers strike me as highly unlikely, with one far too low and one far too high.

If you are advocating for 65% or 87% turnout, I think the burden is on you, not Chris.  Chris does give prior evidence, the 2004 election.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
I'm not advocating anything (0.00 / 0)
and I've never like the idea of "burdens of proof" anyway.

I'm just dubious of the whole "poll averaging" project as a way to get at the true value of something.


[ Parent ]
Amen (0.00 / 0)
It actually doesn't seem to have any basis in scientific, statistical reality that I can tell. Individual polls ask different questions, have different screens, different methodologies for reaching voters, and most importantly, are taken on different nights. Averaging them together just produces a mish-mash, not a scientific result.

The inconvenient truth here is that some polls are going to be right, others wrong, and mostly by chance (virtually all will be within their margin of error, which remember is TWICE the reported margin since it applies to both McCain's and Obama's number). There is nothing mathematical or in statistical theory to suggest that averaging them all together gets you a more accurate result (which mathematically is equivalent to lowering the margin of error).

The averaging "project" appears to be just a way for stats geeks to keep busy while nervous about the election results.


[ Parent ]
6% up? (0.00 / 0)
Shit, I'll take that any day. My hunch is that, nationally, young voters are not going to turn out as hyped (although there are anecdotal reports of a considerable increase in North Carolina and Indiana), AA turnout is already through the roof. I believe it was last week when Plouffe told reporters that 40% of Democrats who voted at that point were first time voters.

Report from South Dakota (0.00 / 0)
Earlier today, Marc Ambinder reported that early/absentee turnout with roughly equal between Democrats and Republcans. In 2004, Republicans had a huge edge.  

18-29 year old voters (0.00 / 0)
I am reading the same thing.....that this demographic generally is not coming out as expected. I know the Obama campaign probably is all over it but you can't force people to vote if they don't want. Its something that may effect the final numbers on the 4th in a negative way.  

You guys are missing the point (4.00 / 2)
It's not so much about the quantity. Young voters made up 17% of the electorate in 2004 which was far higher than 2000. The problem for Kerry was that they didn't go for him in as large as numbers as they are going for Obama.

In states such as OH the youth only went for Kerry 55-45, during the primaries they went for Obama 60-30.

If the youth come out at 17% but go for Obama by 30 points that is going to add a few points to Obama's margins in close states.

That is what the issue is with the youth vote not so much that they come out in larger numbers.


[ Parent ]
18-29 turnout (0.00 / 0)
This article discusses the issue........it shows that in two swing states, turnout for this group is significantly below their share of total registration:

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews....

Hopefully, as you suggest, the Obama campaign is not counting on a higher turnout for this group than in 2004 but rather a bigger share of those who do turnout.  


[ Parent ]
Actually, those numbers are great! (4.00 / 1)
It's better than 2004 numbers!  2004 got about 60% turnout, and these early voting numbers show as good or better.  2004 had the highest youth turnout, yet, btw...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
The word in Florida (0.00 / 0)
that I hear is that "sporadic voters" are not coming out as anticipated...

[ Parent ]
here's what I've been wondering (4.00 / 1)
We've got some states that were highly targeted by both Kerry and Obama, like Ohio and Pennsylvania. Of course Obama has a bigger field organization, but Kerry was still quite active in trying to turn Dems out.

Then we've got states like VA and CO and NC, where Kerry did nothing but Obama has 50 plus field offices.

I have to believe that there will be more "expanded turnout" in the states that are targeted by Obama but were off Kerry's radar.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


My attitude towards polling numbers (0.00 / 0)
is that they're all studying the same reality, but essentially end up presenting different scenarios based on the various factors that influence undecideds' decisions and overall voter turnout.  The really big spreads (was it NYT/CBS that had the race at 11% today?) describe a possible outcome if everything breaks Obama's way.  The narrow polls describe a possible outcome if McCain gets a lucky streak in the last week.

undecideds (4.00 / 1)
Chuck Todd has said that the obama people believe undecideds will break 2-1 in favor of McCain, which I believe is true...As for young voters, from the early votes in north carolina they are not turning out as much as polls have suggested.

That's not true (4.00 / 1)
In NC young voters started at 9% they are now almost at 13% and they are the only group that is increasing it's share of the electorate faster than the other groups.

I also saw an article about them coming out at greater numbers in a NC newspaper. I wish I had saved the article.


[ Parent ]
so far.. (0.00 / 0)
so far those 65+ make up 24.6% of the early voting in north carolina. SurveyUSA estimates in their poll that they'll makeup 17%. 18-29 year olds so far make up 12.6% of the early voting electorate in NC, yet surveyusa thinks that the 18-34 year olds will make up 30%. So we need to catchup.  

[ Parent ]
Per PPP (0.00 / 0)
PPP, which is actually based on North Carolina and has a solid record of polling the state (look at their primary performance vis-a-vis SUSA) had 18-29 voters making up only 16% of their last polling sample. Barack still led by 1%.

As Gallup showed last, week younger voters tend to wait to vote, while older voters opt to vote early.

Furthermore, the most important number if partisan turnout, where Democrats have a unbelievable advantage in North Carolina.

Unless McCain has some magic turnout machine on election day, Obama will win North Carolina.  


[ Parent ]
waiting (0.00 / 0)
I don't know how you can assume they will just show up election day just because they haven't shown up yet. Besides, there is likely to be lines on election day and I would imagine young people will be more likely to give up and walk away.

[ Parent ]
Turnout will vary by state (0.00 / 0)
Oregon appears to be on target to turn out somewhere betwwen 2000 and 2004, However, red counties are badly underperforming in terms of percentage of balts retuned thus far. I also heard reports of unusually low demand for absentee ballots in Rebpublican parts of Michigan and some red counties in Ohio. I'm looking for but cannot yer find reports of Democratic underperformance anywhere. Anyone?

The El vs Bachmann debate (0.00 / 0)
Did you watch the debate? And if so, how did it go? I'm from MPLS originally.

[ Parent ]
Where does the 87% number come from? (0.00 / 0)
According to the Gallup faq at http://www.gallup.com/poll/111... estimated turnout for the expanded likely voter sample is 69%, which is not an unreasonable number (this was from oct 23-25).  

Can't extrapolate turnout from the percentages in each model (0.00 / 0)
Chris uses the percentage of respondents in each model against the total number of registered voters (2800) to extrapolate turnout.  I'm not a statistician, but I think that this is an apples to oranges mistake.  The different models screen out certain voters based on their responses to questions regarding past voting, enthusiasm, etc.  The traditional model will weight certain age and demographic groups based on their past turnout behavior, while the expanded model screens based on currently described intentions and enthusiasm.  So an 18-29 voter that did not vote in 2004, but says he is definitely voting this time around might get screened out (or his vote weighted down) in the first model, but not in the second.  That does not mean that the percentage of voters in Model I or Model II to the registered base represents the turnout percentage for each group.  In fact, turnout could be nearly the same, but may have a different makeup (more young, African American, etc.).  The models simply try to identify what voters will turn up at the poles.  I don't think taking the percentage from the total sample measures turnout.  But what do I know, I'm just a lawyer.

[ Parent ]
spelling error (0.00 / 0)
Oops, I meant polls.

[ Parent ]
I just can't imagine (0.00 / 0)
that young first-time voters would pass up the chance to boast: "The first president I ever voted for was the nation's first African-American president!"  Sure, there might be those lazy kids who try to take credit, but not that many.  Too many more will want to feel like they had an active hand in making change happen.

Believe it (0.00 / 0)
You're talking about 18 year olds. Most of them don't really understand the significance of this.

[ Parent ]
Get real and stop discriminating. (4.00 / 1)
Let's change the your language a little and see if it's still acceptable, shall we?

You're talking about black people. Most of them don't really understand the significance of this.

Now why do you find it alright to discriminate against people who are young (something they cannot help), but I can only assume you wouldn't say the same about black people (another attribute one cannot help)?

Discrimination should have no place here at OpenLeft, or in America at large.


[ Parent ]
There's also the fact that (0.00 / 0)
much of the increased excitement which is supposed to produce high turnout has already been absorbed by way of voter registration, which will boost total turnout while making the turnout percentage more difficult to raise.

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