Michael Lind Responds

by: Matt Stoller

Wed Nov 12, 2008 at 22:52


Earlier today, I echoed a claim by Stirling Newberry that New America Foundation fellow Michael Lind had lifted his work on the monetary order's relationship to the rise of constitutional orders, in particular the moment we are in right now which is being dubbed the fourth American republic.  Lind wrote me a response, and asked me to publish it.  I've retracted my blog post, apologized to Lind, and asked Stirling to respond as to the substance of his claims.  It's really not my fight and I shouldn't have tried to adjudicate, I was just hoping to bring attention to Stirling's claim, which you can find here.

Lind's response is below.

Matt Stoller :: Michael Lind Responds
Dear Matt Stoller:

I've been alerted to the fact that on your blog you have relayed a false charge that I plagiarized my recent Salon article on the dawn of the fourth American republic:

It's worth noting that Michael Lind is plagiarizing Stirling Newberry's Fourth Republic concept, which Stirling wrote about for years while the Republicans were ascendant.  Lind is a so-called 'radical centrist' at the New America Foundation, so I suppose it's not a surprise that he's swinging with the times and stealing the intellectual capital of a progressive.  That's how things work in DC.

Before I read your nasty and groundless attack on me a few minutes ago, I had never heard of Stirling Newberry, just as I had never heard of you (I generally don't read partisan opinion blogs).  According to the Wikipedia entry on Mr. Newberry, he is a composer who writes a political blog.  It appears that he has never published any articles or books on political issues, only entries on his own blog and musical scores.

Mr. Stoller's Wikipedia entry cites a blog entry of February 22, 2005, entitled "The Rise of Rove's Republic."    I assume that it was from this that you and he claim that I stole my ideas about American history without acknowledging his priority.

Not only was I unaware of the existence of Mr. Newberry and his blog until my attention was drawn to your piece half an hour ago, but  I set out my own scheme of three American republics in my book The Next American Nation, which was published nearly fourteen years ago in 1995 but substantially written by 1993.  I then used a variant of it again in the book I co-authored with Ted Halstead, The Radical Center, and yet again in a history of the American social contract published by the New America Foundation last spring.

The idea of discussing American history in terms of successive republics is inspired by France, as educated people ought to know.  It was not original with me back in 1995.  Bruce Ackerman had used his own scheme earlier, and before that Theodore Lowi had spoken of two republics.  As I am scrupulous about giving credit where credit is due, I cited both of them in my Salon article, before setting forth my own version of the concept, which differs from theirs.

I would be pleased to give Mr. Newberry, the never-published composer-blogger, credit for yet another variant of the scheme, if his proved interesting, on the grounds that I had never heard of him and had therefore overlooked his ideas on the subject.

However, instead of complaining that I overlooked him and asking me politely to cite him next time, he has accused me of lifting the idea from him.  You, without doing the basic research that an honorable person would do before putting up an accusation on the Internet, then repeated the charge and amplified it by including a groundless attack on the New America Foundation, which I co-founded.

It appears that Mr. Newberry's first mention in his obscure blog of the idea of a fourth republic came a decade after I developed the idea at length in The Next American Nation in 1995.  I would have to be a time traveller, to steal from Mr. Stirling in 2005 and then go back in time to plagiarize him in 1995 and 2001.

Unless Stirling Newberry claims to have come up with the concept in 1991-93, when I was researching and writing The Next American Nation, and can prove a) that he had published the idea and b) that he published it in a venue that was well-known enough that I could be expected to have encountered it, his charge of plagiarism cannot hold up.

While Mr. Stirling's blog is obscure, The Next American Nation is very well-known.  It was a New York Times Notable Book and has been in print continously since 1995.  It is assigned every semester in universities around the country, and I've been told of two dissertations that were based on it.  So it would appear that if anyone is to be accused of plagiarism, it is the opinionated composer with a vanity weblog, Stirling Newberry.

But I won't accuse him of plagiarism, because I don't know the circumstances, and for all I know he was unaware of my extensive use of the concept from 1995 onward and got the idea not from me but from Bruce Ackerman, or Theodore Lowi, or the ultimate source, France itself.  Unlike Mr. Newberry and you, I don't make false accusations against people.

I'd appreciate it if you would post this letter on your blog.  I've never read your blog before, but I promise to do so, to see if you are honorable enough to retract this malicious accusation, now that its falsity has been demonstrated.

Sincerely yours,

Michael Lind


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This internet thing is very fast! (0.00 / 0)


Jeff Wegerson

I read that article in Salon (0.00 / 0)
Interesting take. I've always liked Michael Lind's work...his other piece about populism almost hit the nail on the head. I thought it was an excellent piece.

Truth and falsehood (4.00 / 7)
You've done the ethical thing here and published an apology and retraction in the same space and with the same prominence that you made the original false report. You also gave Lind prime space to respond in his own words. Very cool.

Since we all have the ability to publish here and elsewhere, this might be a good time to say that we all should try for the same standard. Shit happens, mistakes are made, remove the stinger and move on.

I guess the whole 'reporter ethics' topic could be dismissed as 'concern trollery,' but that accusation gets overused to put some worthwhile discussions off-limits.


i think stirling newberry's claim of plagiarism is questionable because (0.00 / 0)
michael lind's article was not interesting. there were no original insights as far as i could tell, mostly just reporting about studies by the other authors he also mentions above, and he leaves out the central insights made by newberry that make his thesis so compelling. in contrast, newberry's essay is around three dozen pages that delves deeply into the importance of debt, and monetary policy in driving these cyclical waves of change (the cyclical nature of inflation/deflation/monetary basis was written about by david hackett fiscker in "The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History").

the original peice can be found here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200...

i'm sure this will get more interesting...

end the blurring--vote steve novick for u.s. senate in oregon


actually, on second thought, this is suspicious (4.00 / 2)
lind's "Nations" from his book "NEXT AMERICAN NATION: The New Nationalism and the Fourth American Revolution" are completely different from newberry's three republics in his essay.

Lind's Nations are based on culture, and are:

Anglo-America (1789-1861)
Euro-America (1875-1957) and
Multicultural America (1972-present)

Newberry's Republics are based on constitutinoal amendments and monetary basis, and are:

The Federalist Republic (1787-1860)
The Union (1861-1932)
The Liberal Democracy (1933-present)

but in Lind's recent essay at Salon his "Nations" (which are now Republics) are basically an incomplete summary of newberry's republics and are:

The First Republic 1788 to 1860
The Second Republic 1860 to 1932.
The Third American Republic 1932 until 2004.

i don't think he can use the existence of his "Nation's" book as a defence against plagiarism, because it is not the same idea as the Republics.  his tone towards newberry as a an "obscure", "vanity blogger/composer" is also somewhat telling.

end the blurring--vote steve novick for u.s. senate in oregon


[ Parent ]
one correction, lind does use the term "Republic" in his book. my mistake n/t (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
And the French way of counting is based on constitutional changes! (0.00 / 0)
So, somehow Lind's explanation isn't completely convincing. Would be interesting to ask him for further details, and look more into it. And let's wait for Newberry's answer.

[ Parent ]
Looks like Lind changed the timetable in "The Radical Center" (4.00 / 2)
This quote in a WaPo review of the book sounds as if in 2001, Lind saw the landmark changes coupled to Lincoln and Roosevelt: "At some point in the early 21st century, the modern equivalents of Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt will once again remodel the inherited institutions of our republic."
http://www.newamerica.net/publ...

Pls note that reviewer Alan Ehrenhalt recapitulates the thesis of Lind and Halstead as being  "that the Internet, wireless communication and the high-speed global economy represent societal change of an equally dramatic sort, and that the political counterpart is coming -- it is only a matter of time."
Now, isn't this interesting, an author who publishes a book about political changes at the start of the 21st century, explicitly mentioning the internet, makes a statement here that he "generally don't read partisan opinion blogs".

Excuse me pls, Mr. Lind, but if this is true, how could you write about the internet in "The Radical Center"? Isn't an important part of the picture missing there? Or did you not deem the emerging blogosphere to be important in 2001, and still don't?

Really, the more I look into this, the more I'm puzzled about Mr. Lind. Imho the fact that he publishes political opinions at Salon.com, while at the same time he ignores "partisan opinion blogs" is telling. Looks like one of those defensive battles of more conservative academics against those scary internet amateurs at the gates to me.  


[ Parent ]
good find (0.00 / 0)
though Newberry's Fourth Republic was first published in 2001 (i believe).

at this point, the thing i find most suspect is not so much the dates that divide the republics, it is the point about centralizing and decentralizing forces that divide each republic.

it's been years since i read Ackerman's Transformations, so I can't remember if this was explicitly part of his thesis. My main take away from it was that the Constitution has changed in three clusters of Amendments followed by judicial reinterpretations to allow the mandate of the people to be realized.

end the blurring--vote steve novick for u.s. senate in oregon


[ Parent ]
Bruce Ackerman (4.00 / 1)
Bruce Ackerman's three regimes, which he introduced in the early 1990s based on constitutional changes, follow essentially the same divisions: pre-Civil War, pre-New Deal, and post-New Deal. It's a pretty ubiquitous set of divisions in constitutional discussions.

[ Parent ]
true (0.00 / 0)
and both authors acknowledge ackerman as a major influence. my only point was that "The Next Nation" itself does not stand up as evidence against plagiarism.

end the blurring--vote steve novick for u.s. senate in oregon

[ Parent ]
having reread lind's essay (0.00 / 0)
the idea of each rebublic being defined by a hamiltonian centralization of power, and then a decentralizing jeffersonian backlash is the key point in newberry's thesis. the only thing that lind left out is the monetary component.

end the blurring--vote steve novick for u.s. senate in oregon

[ Parent ]
However, if he based his ideas on the French precendent (0.00 / 0)
The second table makes much more sense than the first. What do you think?

[ Parent ]
wasn't Stirling Newberry accused of plagarism himself? (0.00 / 0)
way back in the early days of blogging?  Like back when Tom Tomorrow's blog had a wider readership than Daily Kos?

I seem to remember an incident like this.


But I could be wrong (0.00 / 0)
I often am.

[ Parent ]
I agree that the plagarism charge was wild (0.00 / 0)
...but that doesn't make it OK for Michael Lind's to mock composers and imply that people who don't know that "the three Republics" originated with France are a bunch of dumbasses. I'd wager the amount of people IN FRANCE who don't know that is a supermajority and in the US it's approaching 99%.

It's wrong to accuse people of serious charges like plagarism with shitty (or no) evidence but that doesn't make it OK to be a superior son of a bitch.

My verdict: If you had the Stoller, Newberry, Lind wanker trifecta today, you won big.

John McCain


Also, there were FIVE, not three, French republics (0.00 / 0)
There were five republics in france.  Most of them were overthrown and replaced with various despotries--The first republic was created during the French Revolution and survived until Napoleon.  The second Republic was erected after the 1848 and the abolition of the restored Monarchy, but was destroyed by Napoleon III.  The third Republic was created in the wake of the Franco-Prussian war, and was ended when the Nazis created Vichy France.  The Fourth Republic ended when its instability led to a military coup in 1961.  Charles De Gaulle broke up the coup, and established a vastly strengthened Presidency in the Fifth Republic.

So, in each case, the French Republics were founded by a throwing off of despotry, and were ended with a new period of dictatorship.  The metaphor to the American system is not really all that obvious, unless you consider the wartime governments to be anti-democratic, and with the time periods given, the breaks aren't exactly during wartime (aside from the civil war).  

Regardless, the condescending tone is stupid.


[ Parent ]
However, Newberry didn't cite Lind in his essay, too. (0.00 / 0)
http://web.archive.org/web/200...

Since both articles were not running in peer reviewed journals, this lack of attention to academic standards is understandable, of course. But this begs the question if the whole "controversy" isn't a bit over the top. However, the way Lind dimishes Newberry's reputation doesn't really raise sympathies for him. And his statement that he doesn't pay attention to the blogosphere, even though he published his story at Salon, and certainly knows how to google, is somewhat unconvincing.


"I had never heard of Stirling Newberry" (4.00 / 2)
"Before I read your nasty and groundless attack on me a few minutes ago"

Hmm, Mr. Lind, maybe it would be a good idea to read the comments to stories you publish on the internet, too. Because a commenter named rocki14 wrote on November 7th, long before Matt published his story:

I Have read This Thesis Before

I have read this exact thesis before, even with the same title about America being on the verge of a Fourth Republic several years ago written by Sterling Newberry. Did you colaborate with him on him when he wrote his origional paper (I think it was at BOP News)then?


http://letters.salon.com/opini...

Well, if you had paid a little bit attention to readers answering you, you could have avoided the negative reporting here at OpenLeft! Yes, Mr. Newberry should have contacted you, of course, but it's also true that you could have contacted him. Not to speak of that before publishing in the internet, it would be a very good idea to google for other articles on the topic first. And a google search for "fourth republic" US ackerman shows the Rove's Republic story among the first 15 hits or so (it must have been higher before your story was posted). Really, I think both sides are at fault here, and nobody is in an especially superior position to point fingers.


Right (4.00 / 1)
Not to speak of that before publishing in the internet, it would be a very good idea to google for other articles on the topic first.

This would never occur to him. Different worlds. Credentialed speakers and published authors are the only ones who count.

Also, he clearly doesn't know how to do civil communication. Flamebait city!

That said, I think the idea of "plagarism" outside the direct (Ben Smith) context is kind of a dead letter in this modern world. People are smart, and they come up with the same shit at about the same time quite often, and wholly independently (there was a neat NYer article by Gladwell on this recently).

Crying theft just because the other guy didn't know about you and found a wide/mainstream audience is understandable, but also not necessarily accurate.

I especially don't want people worrying about whether or not their ideas are "really original" or not. Fuck that shit. Publish 'em all, and let our pageranking overlords sort it out.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
TO be fair... (0.00 / 0)
He was basically called a thief.  I'm assuming he was pretty pissed off when he wrote that letter.

[ Parent ]
Open Left's Good Policy (and Welcome, Michael Lind!) (4.00 / 6)
The fact that Michael Lind could dispute a claim, have his response posted, and get this kind of attention on a site that initially attacked him says something very positive about Open Left, and the leadership of Matt and Chris.

The "Right to Respond" has been one of the most original and important features of this site since the beginning.  It encourages real discussion -- I wish more people and organizations that are attacked on these pages would use it to defend their point of view.

We see how hard it is for major newspapers to admit their wrong; and how rarely right-wing sites would even consider acknowledging a mistake.

When you're attacked online, the best response isn't to get it pulled down -- because the record of it exists elsewhere -- it's to publicly promote an alternative narrative.  In this case, the discussion of Michael Lind's defense and vindication will get more play (and higher search results) than the claims against him.

Matt, your comments in this apology were apt.  You've now apologized more that President Bush has throughout his term.

And for my part, I actually really liked one of Michael Lind's works and relied heavily on it for my college thesis...so welcome to the liberal blogosphere!

- justin krebs


worthy of its own post (4.00 / 1)
in to the breach once more. village vs blogosphere, round 9475934785

altho, thinking of my grandfather, i could've also just said, "if they notice you enough to insult/accuse/critique you, you're doing something right."


Pls correct... (0.00 / 0)
5th paragraph from the end, "I'm unbiased"???
Before, you wrote several times you're a biased commenter on this issue, so I guess you have slipped up in that sentence.

Otherwise, great posting, covering a topic that can only become even more important when the boundaries between blogger, professional blogger and online journalist become ever more fuzzy!


[ Parent ]
the guy has a point (0.00 / 0)
folks sometimes tend to jump to conclusions:

...without doing the basic research that an honorable person would do before putting up an accusation on the internet, then repeating the charge and amplifying it by including a nasty and groundless attack...


Yes, research, but... (0.00 / 0)
A blogger, like a reporter, has to deal with the issue of timeliness. For a democracy to function, people need to get their information in a timely fashion to be able to act on it.

That's why we have a whole set of special libel law that grants a privilege for journalists (and now for us bloggers too) to avoid being sued by issuing corrections and retractions when they've been requested. It's worth knowing more about the laws that protect you.

An honorable blogger, just like an honorable journalist, will inevitably publish errors - and then do the right thing and correct them.


[ Parent ]
OK (0.00 / 0)
I agree its a fine line that has to be walked each and every day, with each and every post.

That said, and not knowing the specifics of this case, there are times when it seems to me the blogger would be prudent to, at the very least, sound out his or her own network before generalizing, lambasting and stating opinion as fact.  


[ Parent ]
Not accusing Matt of doing this... (0.00 / 0)
Those libel laws can be exploited easily to attack.  Retractions and corrections in  papers are tiny and not read by many people... meanwhile, the blaring headlines hurt them.    SOme of those headlines are created with an agenda.  I don't think MATT's WAS, but I find your argument faulty.

One other thing...Responsible journalists CONFIRM SOURCES or go after consenting viewsand write the article differently.   In this case, Matt should have contacted Lind for comment... and/or written the article so that it said Lind was ACCUSED of plagerism.  Matt said LIND IS PLAGARIZING rather than Newberry was accusing him of plagarizing.  That simple change and changing the comment in the middle to say, IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF THIS WERE TRUE AND...   At that point, he's clear.  That's the big difference.   A few simple changes and this would have been fine.

Its cool.  Matt did the right thing by publishing the letter and saying he was mistaken.  I give him the utmost credit.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you... (0.00 / 0)
in the abstract. In Matt's case here, he did issue the retraction and correction in the same space and with the same prominence as the original.

He actually went beyond the usual MSM fig-leaf corrections that are published in so small and in such an obscure places that very few see it.

Matt handled this with both the spirit and the letter of the law.


[ Parent ]
It isn't that easy (0.00 / 0)
Let's look at this from a blogger point of view. You first start with a google search, let's say "Michael Lind" US Republic. Lots of hits, but no particular info that looks like an older instance of the republic thesis. But there's a Wikipedia article among the hits! Sadly, nothing about the republic idea in it, not much at all about Lind (to me, this looks like a delete candidate, honestly). But at least a link to the Wikipedia article about one of his books! And yeah, sure, it's about republics! But wait, the topic doesn't seem to be constutional changes, nor eras of US history affected by Lincoln or FDR, Lind seems to see the treatment of African Americans as the decisive influence that differentiates the "republics". Hmm, this is not what his Salon story and Newberry's are about. What now? Buy and read the book?

See? It's more difficult to find precedent in the internet when it's hidden in a book. Online stories like Newberrys have an advantage because you can actually read the content when you find it.

This is not to say that Matt shouldn't have been more careful and reluctant before simply restating Newberry's claims here. But it should be noted that the claim wasn't groundless, as the 2005 story really was publicly available before the Salon article. And some "basic research" obviously isn't good enough to come to a judgment, you need to dig deeper and invest more work to do that.


[ Parent ]
Simultanious Invention (0.00 / 0)
Mmmm... I love me some Sterling, but I think maybe this is one of those times when (egad!) two people independently arrive at the same conclusion at about the same time.

Happens a lot.

But the culture clash is what we call came to see, of course. Flame on!

Me | My Work | Future Majority


Yeah... (0.00 / 0)
They made that argument when I came up with the Swiffer Sweeper, You Tube and The Truman Show...

I still think they were thievin bastards... somehow reading my mind... in reality I'm just pissed I didn't make millions on the idea ;-)


[ Parent ]
Well, I tried to read your mind just now, (0.00 / 0)
but all I got was a blank.

Just kidding.

Who was in the wrong here?  Somebody who accuses somebody else of plagiarism had better be able to back it up.  Plagiarism does not mean somebody "stole" your idea.  It means they copied your words, and not in a minor way, but in such a way as to make it obvious that they copied what you wrote.  I don't think Stirling has substantiated his accusation of plagiarism against Lind, as yet.  Unless he can quote fairly extensive passages which Lind clearly lifted from his work, he is going to be embarrassed by his accusation.  Under the circumstances, I can see why Lind is outraged enough to make nasty remarks about Stirling.

I'm thinking Matt's face is red over this, too, although I personally have to add that I admire Matt's response to Lind's request.  What Matt did after that is perfectly correct and honorable.  If you shot your mouth off a little too quickly, Matt, well, some of the rest of us sometimes have that problem, too.  So your original remarks may have been a gaffe, but your conduct later is unexceptionable, and more than most political types would have done under the circumstances.  Nobody is obligated to accept an apology under the circumstances, but you did what was needed to correct the situation, so it looks like one of those mistakes we can only hope not to repeat in the future.

We live and learn.  At least, some of us learn.


[ Parent ]
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