Should We Be Surprised?

by: David Sirota

Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 14:50


A question in the aftermath of Chairman Lieberman's heroic return to the welcoming arms of the Senate Democratic club: Should we be surprised?

No, really, this is a serious question.

With its congressional majority, the Democratic Party has refused to seriously try to end the war, to stop the bailout and to stop the trampling of civil liberties, just to name a few off the top of my head.  In fact, with their votes, they have aggressively worked to start and continue the war, pass the bailout and destroy our constitutional rights to privacy. So, are we really surprised that they have rewarded Joe Lieberman with a chairmanship that he can use to investigate the president he said poses a danger to America?

David Sirota :: Should We Be Surprised?
As gross as the Senate statement celebrating the demise of "the Left" is, there's a truth in the part where the aide says progressives "can rant and rage but they still do not put the fear into folks to actually change their votes." That truth is that the progressive movement - as independent from the Democratic Party - is still incredibly weak.

Because so much organizing under the banner of the "progressive movement" is - in reality - electoral organizing on behalf of the Democratic Party, there's very little independent leverage over that Democratic Party, especially in non-election periods. As just one example, when, for instance, Moveon.org gets swallowed whole by the Obama campaign and turned into just another Internet appendage of that campaign, a group like Moveon.org subsequently has no real independent leverage over the Democratic Party because Moveon has trained its own members to believe participation in Moveon - and in the "progressive movement" - is always synonymous with reflexively supporting Democratic leaders (by the way, I cite this not to pick on Moveon - this is the basic construct of many progressive organizations, but I use Moveon just to give an example we can all relate to).

So, in many ways, the public attacks on "the Left" from congressional Democrats - while motivated from their Reagan-era cultural hatred of Dirty Fucking Hippies - is to be completely expected from a party that has failed to deliver on every major progressive promise it has made, and has nonetheless faced no real retribution. It is par for the course from leaders who quite understandably feel little fear from a still-weak progressive movement.

They believe - with justifiable reason - that come election time we'll all forget their failings, whether failing to end the war or failing to disempower Lieberman. They believe that most "progressive movement" activists will actually do what they did during the last election - berate anyone who floats the idea that movement organizing and carrot-and-stick treatment of the Democratic Party during election time is actually a good thing. They believe, in short, that come 2010, we'll all fall in line and be an ATM machine of partisan campaign contributions and candidate volunteer time because we are still very much organized as a party, not a movement.

And here's the thing: Except for a few fleeting primaries, most of recent history suggests their calculation is right.

If we want to avoid this kind of thing in the future, we better understand why this happened. Because if we don't, and somehow still expect "change we can believe in," we're epitomizing Albert Einstein's "definition of insanity" - we're "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


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Hey, David (0.00 / 0)
Since when is a quote from an anonymous Senate aide an "Official Senate statement?"

Do you doubt that was the prevailing sentiment (4.00 / 4)
among the 80% of the caucus that supported LIEberman?

Howard Dean in 2016

[ Parent ]
Whether or not it was (0.00 / 0)
it still wasn't an "Official Senate statement."

[ Parent ]
Pissing off "the Left" (4.00 / 2)
As a DKos diarist noted, they'll be unhappy when we spend all our time working to oust LIEberman in 2012 instead of helping elect or staving off challenges to other Democrats.

That was their choice.

Howard Dean in 2016


Well, to be contrarian (0.00 / 0)
this will make him the epicenter of primaries challenging him from the left (will he be able to run in the Dem primary?).  He probably would already have been, but this probably helps out anyone else that was going to get a primary challenge from the left, now that he's definitely not running as a Republican.

[ Parent ]
David and anyone else: (4.00 / 1)
a lot of buzz that AIPAC fought hard to save Joe--is this true?

If so, this needs get out there.

If not, this needs to be debukned, cause it's starting to get ugly.


where have you seen that? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
If this latest travesty has not proven that we (4.00 / 4)
need to create a well funded progressive organization that is independent of the democratic party then nothing will. We are just another cash cow for a party that continues to piss on us. I am not saying we should not also support progressive dems but if we don't establish an on going way to continue supporting them they will turn into hacks with their hands out to the party leadership.  

Why not a new progressive <i>party</i>, not just an organization? (4.00 / 1)
It could first start out as a regional party, only fielding candidates in deeply blue congressional districts. I think that now is one of those periods when it might be possible to start a new party, given that it looks like the Republican Party is shut out of certain regions, like the Northeast, for decades to come.

If Dems continue pissing off voters, people in blue districts will consider voting for a new party to protest—especially if it gets good exposure in the new media—instead of protesting by voting Republican.


[ Parent ]
that would work if there were critical (0.00 / 0)
mass in any given area. But for now I don't think we have that. What we do have is a progressive caucus in the dem party that we could work closly with but not be beholden to. We need funds and the ability to develope future candidates and to be well organized as a group. Right now we are a bunch of individuals that have no real clout. That is the first thing we need to change.

[ Parent ]
I think I understand what you're saying (4.00 / 1)
I'm glad you're not excluding from the start the possibility of starting a new party somewhere down the road.

But can you point to any examples of what such an organization would be like? I think such organizations only exist on the regressive side; organizations such as the Club for Growth, for example. But then there are labor unions, environmental NGOs, and so on...

Possibly the closest progressive example is Moveon.org which, as David Sirota notes, got "swallowed whole by the Obama campaign". Any new progressive organization should study Moveon's experience, so as not to make the same mistakes.


[ Parent ]
MoveOn (4.00 / 1)
was full of energy when I gave it a lot of hours before the '06 election. Full of smart strategy and tech savvy, too. As soon as the election was over and we, along with other non-party groups gave Dems control of Congress, MoveOn disappeared from the local scene. Some of us wanted to try to build from the core that had formed, but MoveOn national could not even be reached to make suggestions and the local paid organizers MovedOn to other jobs somewhere.

MoveOn proved to be a purely electoral organization. Which is not a bad thing, but its top-down decision making structure is the opposite of what is needed for building a permanent base to counter the one on the Right.

The unions should be the best core, but they are only interested in their members, for the most part -- again, understandably so. Maybe what's needed is a kind of union that is not tied to specific kinds of work but takes some structural ideas from, and perhaps collaborates with, the more progressive labor unions.


[ Parent ]
yes exactly, and takes structural ideas from the right (0.00 / 0)
like focus on the family. we need a membership based organization, that people pay dues to and is democratically organized. Just imagine what we could do with a couple of million grassroots progressives paying even just 1 dollar a month in dues.

[ Parent ]
I think we shoud take some examples from the regressive side (0.00 / 0)
they haave done very well over the last 30 years. A dues based progressive organization that is democraticaly run would have huge impact on the political process. and if we work with progressive dems and take on the dino's we can really beat then progressives will have a real impact. right now the only thing the dems have to worry about are well funded well organized atacks from the right. we have to be jusst as effective from the left

[ Parent ]
the move on example is excellent (0.00 / 0)
because it wasn't dues based there was nothing democratic in how the mosst important decissions were made.  

[ Parent ]
It doesn't work (4.00 / 6)
Unless you've got a fusion system, or IRV balloting or something, basic game theory means that a third-party challenge from the left will move Democrats to the right. The only path right now, unfortunately, is to work within the party.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
Like Gore moved to the left in the last two weeks of the 2000 election (0.00 / 0)
... in response to Nader?

Can you give some references to the literature? I think you are overlooking what would happen if the political environment continues to change.


[ Parent ]
The political environment doesn't matter (4.00 / 1)
If you have a third party challenge from the left, those voters become a lot less valuable to the Democratic candidate, because there are less of them that you can appeal to. It'll be easier for the candidate to find voters in the middle. Unless you have IRV, The third party candidate will split the liberal vote, making it easier for the Republican candidate to get elected.

Remember, political ideologies are distributed roughly in a bell-curve. There are more voters near the middle than there are toward either end of the spectrum. The voters toward the ends are more politically engaged, so they have more proportionally more influence, but if they split their vote to a third party, they nullify their influence.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
Which is why (0.00 / 0)
priority one has to be annihilating the current electoral structure (which was never intended to become a "two-party system) and build a new one from the ground up. How many more Dem betrayals will it take to get our strategies straight?

[ Parent ]
Stay in reality, please (4.00 / 1)
Overthrowing the two-party system is slightly more difficult than throwing out a few lousy Democrats. Yes, in an ideal world, we'd have a more democratic electoral system. Here on planet Earth, we've got to work with what we've got.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
The reality is (0.00 / 0)
we've been throwing out a few lousy Dems for half a century now and have ended up here. If Washington and Franklin and the boys thought like you we'd still be a Brit colony. (Which might not have been such a terrible thing, but it's the principle). The other reality is that without partisan political power these days, different ideas just don't get a hearing in our media environment.

I don't think radical reform of the electoral system is nearly as hard as ending slavery or getting equal rights for minorities, for example. We're just more flabby.


[ Parent ]
But if the local center is to the left of the Dem Party... (0.00 / 0)
as it is in certain very liberal Congressional districts, then by the same reasoning, it would be the Republican, not the progressive, candidate who would be the "third party" candidate. The problem then would be to get ordinary voters used to and comfortable with the idea of there being a new party.

[ Parent ]
Primary challenges work better (4.00 / 2)
In those cases, primary challenges work just as well as third party (e.g. Donna Edwards vs. Al Wynn.) In fact, primary challenges work much better, because activists have an organizational advantage in primaries compared to what they'd be able to manage in a third-party challenge in a general election.

The Donna Edwards case is the example we need to follow. If she had run as a third-party candidate in the general election instead of as a Democrat in the primary it never would have worked.

If we collect a few more scalps like that, it'll make a big difference. It's just gonna take time. As frustrated as we are right now, we will need patience.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
That's a very good argument (0.00 / 0)
Still, I can't help thinking that we shouldn't be over hasty in "nipping" the third party idea "in the bud". Perhaps it can be incorporated into some kind of hybrid strategy.

The problem that David raised, remember, is that we have little leverage over the Dem Party. Yes, winning a general election with a third party candidate is more difficult and expensive than winning a primary. But it would be worth the extra effort, if that would lead to the gradual creation of a new regional party.

This would require thinking strategically, not tactically.


[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 2)
reform of the electoral systems are a must for the development of viable alternative parties.

I disagree that the only option is to work within the Democratic party, especially as it appears that those on the left are used by the party for grunt labor and filling up ballot boxes, then ignored when it comes to setting policy, assigning chairships, and picking cabinet members.

The option is to withold your efforts from the Democratic Party and then negotiate how you might be enticed to rejoin the coalition.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 2)
Either that or simply threaten to withold votes, money, and campaign volunteering from the Democratic Party.

As it is, those to the left of the mainstream Democratic Party members are going to continue being taken for granted. The Democrats need to pay a price for always playing to the right.

This is the moment. With a broken, fractious GOP already floundering, this is the time to break up the Democratic Party as well. The force of the two party tyranny will kick in, and reform two parties centered around those that are the best organized. The left, progressive, netroots, have everyone else beat on that front.  Chaos is your friend, do not fear it.

If Obama wants to rule from the center, the time is now to move the left more to the left.  He'll have 2 years to decide whether he wants to depend on folks like Joe Lieberman for his political future, or start paying attention to his left flank.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Not quite shut out (4.00 / 1)
We are still at least 2 good elections from that as there are 17 House and 4 Senate Republicans left and some are pretty hard line right (Judd Gregg in the Senate, Scott Garrett and some of the rural PA Republicans like Shuster and Pitts in the House).

[ Parent ]
By "Northeast", I didn't mean to include Pennsylvania! (0.00 / 0)
If you look at the Congressional map at the NY Times, New York state and New England are totally blue, except for sparsely populated regions in the very north of New York.

Certainly, the rural regions of Pennsylvania are not turning blue in the foreseeable future. Also, Main appears to be an outlier as far as New England goes.

On a different note, if Obama turns out to be what he is showing signs of being now, Clinton 3, the Northeast may become less blue in the next two elections.


[ Parent ]
See my comment in the previous thread (4.00 / 2)
Infest the Republican Party. In the areas they ignore, wrest it out of their hands and run Bernie Sanders-style Republicans. It saves the expense of setting up a new party, it removes the worst choicen from the ballot and it gives Rush Limbaugh such a huge coronary that his heart is later founder orbiting Pluto.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Stuck between a rock and a hard place (4.00 / 2)
Even knowing that Obama was likely to stick his thumb in our eye, we still had to support him vigorously; the alternative (Hillary Clinton in the primary or any Republican in the general) was worse. Likewise, in the Senate, we had to win some seats, even if it meant supporting some sub-par Democrats to do it, otherwise we wouldn't have a big enough majority to get anything done.

But now we've got a little breathing room in the Senate, and quite a bit in the House, so we can afford to torpedo a couple crap Democrats in 2010.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


The goal is to remove this requirement: (4.00 / 2)
"...we still had to support him vigorously"

Why do you HAVE to support a candidate that you already suspect is only paying you lip-service and will stick their thumb in your eye at the first opportunity?

Because of the fear that the nasty old Republicans might get elected, right?  That's basically the same old politics of fear that dudes like Guliani and Cheney play; just in a different setting.

We need viable alternative parties, or the guts to sit out the campaigns for candidates that don't really float our boat.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
The math doesn't work (4.00 / 1)
Supporting a third party will work against your cause. That's what got Bush elected in 2000. It's not even a question of politics, it's a question of math. I'm gonna have to write up a diary on game theory to explain this, cause this whole third-party option needs to be nipped in the bud. It's a bad, bad, bad idea.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
Why is it a bad idea for Congressional elections (0.00 / 0)
... in which the local electorate is to the left of the national Democratic Party?

I agree that 2000 showed us that third party candidates for presidential elections are not a good idea (even though if Gore had gone more to the left, he would have lost fewer votes to Nader, and so won by a sufficient margin to prevent theft of the election).


[ Parent ]
Primaries are more effective (0.00 / 0)
In the handful of districts where the electorate is to the left of the elected Democrat there, you'll have trouble as a third party just because you don't have a D next to your name. Most of the voters are going to be voting straight ticket Democrat.

It's a much better use of resources to go after the incumbent in a primary. Primary elections are less expensive, and activists have more power to influence the outcome because turnout is lower. You'll also end up with more power in the end, because you'll be a full-fledged elected Democrat, instead of a fluke outsider.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
You've pretty much convinced me (0.00 / 0)
See this post. At this time, your approach certainly appears to be the better one.

If the Republican Party continues to self-destruct however, that may change. We mustn't be doctrinaire about these things, but always open to new possibilities.


[ Parent ]
Viable third parties aren't possible (0.00 / 0)
because of the constitution.

We need to look at direct action protest strategies like the Civil Rights movement.

Read Klien.   Third parties are saying the system isn't screwed up.


[ Parent ]
What is in the Constitution (0.00 / 0)
that works against third parties? I think the problem is in how campaigns are financed and how electoral votes are apportioned. Neither of which are mandated by the Constitution.

[ Parent ]
The electoral college (4.00 / 2)
winner take all.  You can't elect third parties without running the risk of electing the party most ideologically distant from yourself.  the only time third parties have been successful is when the replaced and existing party, like when the republicans replaced the whigs.

[ Parent ]
I don't think the problem is constitutional (4.00 / 1)
its structural. That does not make the task of instilling viable alternative parties into the system any easier, however.

fwiffo: The limitations on alternatives can be changed by changing the rules and the structure in ways that support alternative parties. I agree that under the current system, alternatives are relegated to a second-class, "spoiler" role. No doubt about it. I think that's why the media likes to call them "third parties", its just like calling other nations the "third world", it denigrates them in a nice way.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I don't mind dengrating them (0.00 / 0)
Third parties and their supporters work against their own purposes. They're useless.

Sure, if we had IRV or fusion voting, it might be a different story. But changing the whole electoral system to make third parties viable is an impossible project. Fixing the Democratic party is easy by comparison.

If we collect a few high-profile scalps in primaries, we'll get the change we need. We just have to be careful not to become the Club for Growth in the process.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
I'd like to see the math on that (4.00 / 2)
What does the math say about the makeup of a party big enough to win in our winner-take all system? Tell me how you make a party big enough to win while it is still directed enough to move the country in a desirable direction.

There have been times in our history when progress has happened, so logically we know it is possible. What are the conditions necessary to make that happen again?

The Democratic Party is not pulling the country to the left; it is chasing the Republicans to the right.  Winning over enough republican voters to the dem side affects the mix of voters within the dem party -- making progressive action less likely, not more likely.

A pool of voters who won't vote for the Democrats automatically, if there are enough of them, can force the Democrats to compromise (something I'm told is very admirable) and halt their run to the right.

Yes, it's apparent that there aren't enough contingent voters yet, but it's also apparent that disillusionment within the Democratic Party is growing. It's getting harder and harder to rationalize away what Dems do once they're elected.


[ Parent ]
You're still wrong (4.00 / 1)
The Democratic party today is better than the Democratic party of a few years ago. As of Nov. 4, a greater portion of the house is progressive. A few years ago 99 senators voted for the Patriot act. Now there's a significant number of Democrats that are willing to speak out against it and vote against renewing it. There are a lot fewer Democrats today willing to stand by their vote in favor of the AUMF.

The Democratic party is moving in the right (left) direction, it's just happening slowly.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
Please provide evidence of this: (0.00 / 0)
"The Democratic party today is better than the Democratic party of a few years ago."

I don't see it. I see a bunch of people losing faith in the GOP, and turning to the ONLY alternative our truncated political system can muster, yeah, but a "better Democratic Party"?  I await the evidence.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I'll believe it when I see it (0.00 / 0)
I confess I want actual progressive outcomes. There is so much Kabuki from our Congresscritters that their words mean nothing to me. I want actual progress in actual laws and policies.

I'll even settle for a mere restoration of the Constitution -- which should be a baseline expectation for US citizens.


[ Parent ]
I pretty much consider the MSPs useless (0.00 / 0)
Unless you happen to be a broke banker, or an arms dealer.

MSP = Main Stream Parties


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I'd be surprised if they did anything else (0.00 / 0)
term limits, please.

The voters of CT will limit Holy Joe's term in 2012 (4.00 / 1)


Howard Dean in 2016

[ Parent ]
asdf (4.00 / 4)
I myself can't stand the whole term limit thing. It's a ruse. It's like throwing meat to the wolves and hoping it'll keep 'em quite for a while - and the wolves in this case are the "reformers" and "activists". Besides, where where I live once someone is termed-out they usually just run (and win) a different elected office.

Under the current system, term limits are nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs. We need fundamental change to our system in order to get better representation. Clean Money elections would be a great start. That way we have a better chance of getting quality candidates to run - not just those who want to gain money and power.  


[ Parent ]
Term limits already exist (0.00 / 0)
every time there is an election.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
The solution to anti-democratic electoral systems (4.00 / 2)
is not to make them even more anti democratic. The problem with the system is that is is essentially a bribocracy fueled by money from people and entities with too much of it. We need a level playing field and mandatory transparency, not even more constraints on our freedom to choose our leaders.

[ Parent ]
Bribocracy (0.00 / 0)
I generally go with the more graphic version: Whoracracy.

Political acts done dirt cheap.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Nah. (0.00 / 0)
In my limited experience whores do provide at least a modicum of satisfaction.

[ Parent ]
Yeah. (4.00 / 2)
And let's not insult people who actually do honest work.  

[ Parent ]
Hey, at least we're not ideological purists. (4.00 / 3)
I for one am glad that we will vote for lousy Democrats merely to keep Republicans out of power. Because the ass-reaming I'm getting today from Senate Dems feels at least 1.5% less painful than the ass-reaming I get from Senate Republicans. THE INCREMENTALLY LESS ODIOUS THAN REPUBLICAN PARTY ERA BEGINS!

We need more than a little breathing room. (4.00 / 1)
We need to either get on board working for revolutionary change or we need to just STFU. Either we dedicate our resources to destroying the "two-party system" before all else or we just resign ourselves to be betrayed by the pols we work so hard for every few years.

It's also way past time to take Nader's description of the duopoly as the truest definition of our political environment that we'll hear from any politician.

I think the much-quoted story of FDR telling progressives to "go out and make me do it" is worth making the center our perceptions. Obama will bring change just by his presence, whether he intends to or not. However much he may secretly wish otherwise, he has set the stage for a new era. Now it's up to us to forget the Democratic Party and form a real-world political force that the party pols have to reckon with. They can yap all they want to about how they have to stay at the "center" (ie to the right of Nixon), but the fact is that Obama would have lost without us, and Congress would not have shifted without us. We are so unorganized that it's hard to be sure, but I'd bet a lot that there are way  more of us than there are "religious right" morons, for example. It's way past time to use that power outside the partisan framework -- "non-partisanship" you can believe in.

If we take the right lessons from the Obama era, this Lieberman Betrayal may yet turn out to be a turning point for a better American body politic. Yes we can.


Reform electoral rules and laws (4.00 / 2)
to support alternative parties. Instant run-off, or propotional voting, for example.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Yes. (0.00 / 0)
And get the power of money out of campaigning. Free time to all qualified candidates, with time deducted equal to paid ad time. All candidates get the same TV/radio exposure, no matter how much money they spend.

[ Parent ]
As long as the campaigns are shorter and less costly (0.00 / 0)
I'll go along.  No way my tax dollars are going to fund 2 years of a presidential campaign. Why even have paid advertising?  Does it ever ad anything useful to the discussion?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
No. (0.00 / 0)
But we can sidestep the civil liberties roadblocks to banning ads by setting up a system where paying for ads becomes a clear disadvantage. And by all means, shorten to campaign season to the month or 2 seen in the civilized world.

[ Parent ]
OK, if you can pull that off (0.00 / 0)
I'll sign on.

I don't see why the civil liberties are such an issue in this regard, many types of advertising are banned and restricted. Negative political ads are just as damaging to our kids and culture as Joe Camel and hard liquor.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
over their dead bodies (0.00 / 0)
This is a necessary step.  I just hope everyone understands that

A) Both the Democratic or Republican Party will fight against this, so it will be necessary to summon the political will to do it despite them.

B) It will have to be something that doesn't get put on hold for the electoral cycle.  That is, you can't set this aside to make sure that Democrat X defeats Republican Y.  


[ Parent ]
More To The Point (4.00 / 4)
So, are we really surprised that they have rewarded Joe Lieberman with a chairmanship that he can use to investigate the president he said poses a danger to America?

We should realize that a President who signaled that he wanted such enemy to have such a position really can't be relied on for anything.  If he won't even protect himself, when it's easily done, who can we count on him to actually fight for?

No one on our side, that's for damn sure.  He might fight for us. He might fight against us.  But you can never count on him.

And, of course, that's why the Dems have appeared so weak on national security for so long.  If they won't even demand simple respect, what will they stand for?

Absolutely nothing.

We're making progress, tho.  The Reps are sociopaths. The Dems, simply nihilists.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Nihilists??? (4.00 / 2)
According to Webster online, nihilism is

1 a: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2 a: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination

I can only wish that the Dems held any position nearly that sophisticated or defensible. I'm afraid the best they can be called is opportunists. Or maybe brand managers.


[ Parent ]
Gotta disagree with you Paul (0.00 / 0)
If he won't even protect himself, when it's easily done, who can we count on him to actually fight for?

He may have all the gentlemen's agreements or blackmail chits he needs to protect HIMSELF.  I would always assume a politician would protect HIMSELF.  Obama's not stupid like that.

On the other hand, I do agree with you that we can't COUNT on him.  It doesn't necessarily mean he'll ALWAYS screw us, just that we should never count on him not to.

And also on the bright side, now that the Republicans are not in power, the arguments pushing us toward uncritical support (be an ATM) of the Democrats lose some of their force.  

There's less push to all unite against Bush.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Huh??? (0.00 / 0)
He may have all the gentlemen's agreements or blackmail chits he needs to protect HIMSELF.

Gentlemen's agreements? Blackmail chits?

We're talking Joe Lieberman here.  He blackmails God.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think (4.00 / 3)
this is one of the great reasons why it was so important for the netroots to come to the defense of ACORN, which is a non-party appendage with its own constituency to which it is accountable. It shares progressive values, but is interested in using elections to move public policy, not just to win elections. So having more progressive people in office means there are more opportunites to hold people accountable to progressive public policies.

And I know that ACORN will be willing to do just that because it is working for its members, not for party leaders.

Having said that ACORN trys to be strategic in the ways it moves campaigns so that they build progressive power, rather than diluting it or acting as a spoiled brat (helloooo Green Party!).


democratic (little d) reform (0.00 / 0)
Clearly, instant run off voting or fusion voting and other democratic reforms are very important to the health of our country. Kos's strategy is all about crashing the gates, aka shock and awe the current system until we own it. At least thats what I gather from the outlook generally that pervades dailykos. But democratic reforms are not a left/right issue. Why can't we ally with grassroots movements on the right like the Ron Paul campaign? Don't you all think that they would be just as amenable to IRV and significant campaign finance reform? I think we saw during the first bailout vote that the corporatist hold on the parties isn't 100%. We saw the moderate centrists (aka corporatists) vote their level of contributions and the true believers vote their beliefs.

Besides actual voting reforms, i would love to see budget reform in this country as well, such as the national level initiative component being pushed by Mike Gravel, and participatory budgeting on a more significant level. Those are issues that we could push in tandem with the right, because they would be boons to both sides. I really believe we need to look into this. Regardless of how odious we find some of their beliefs, surely there are many dissatisfied with their party as well. thoughts? I was planning on writing a big diary about participatory budgeting soon, perhaps I will try to expand into this topic.


Yes, do. (0.00 / 0)
I'd like to see what you're talking about, exactly, and this diary will soon scroll off into oblivion.

[ Parent ]
Unfortunately I am in crunch time mode with (0.00 / 0)
exams/papers/presentations (an ugly trifecta), but I will try to post it on Thursday evening.

Here is an overview of participatory budgeting (http://www.participatorybudgeting.org/) which is an exciting tool that, while subject to establishment push back like many tools, would revolutionize how we think about government IMO. More on Thursday though.


[ Parent ]
MoveOn (0.00 / 0)
When the vote to censure MoveOn came up Obama voted in favor of Censure and Hillary voted against it. MoveOn endorsed Obama in the primary.

MoveOn does not respect itself, why should anyone else?


Since When is Removing Liebermann's Chair a Progressive Issue? (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, I think you are all a bit hysterical here.  I am looking to Obama to pass legislation and to change executive orders such that I see progressive issues moving forward in this country.  What does this Liebermann issue have to do with anything?  This was simply a political game.  Two options - turn Liebermann into a martyr and make the Democrats look like vengeful geeks or be magnanimous and turn Liebermann into an ally beholden to Obama.  Obama chose the latter move, which makes absolute sense.  You choose to take this personally?  This is some afront to the people on the left, the progressives?  Well, only if they stupidly stuck their noses in, made a big stink, and sashayed around demanding a move that didn't make a bit of difference to anyone in the long run.  You chose the wrong move to champion.  The smart move was taken and now the left look like asses.  So now you are angry?  
I am a progressive, even radical leftist.  I don't give a damn about Liebermann and my feelings are not hurt that Obama made a move contrary to what you all wanted.  Did you think he was just joking about the 60 votes in the senate?  How ridiculous of you to believe this was an issue worth putting your reputation on the line over.
Now, let's talk real turkey - don't do battle until battle is called for.  Fight for something that matters - like health care, Iraq, etc.  Right now everyone is getting so uptight about positioning.  You know what?  Obama can put all of Clinton's staff in place and still do everything differently from Clinton.  He can make every change he promised, because this is a different time, a different national mood, a different expectation.
Pick your battles.  Then fight like hell!  Don't get bent out of shape over garbage like Liebermann.  Who the f*** cares?

Great Post. (0.00 / 0)
After reading this post at HuffPo about Evan Bayh misleading people by saying "The caucus still has the right to remove him from that position at any time" I started fantasizing.

Perhaps a deal could be brokered by the 13 that opposed Lieberman, however many others could be convinced and Senate Republicans to filibuster any Organizing Resolution that includes a Lieberman chairmanship (and/or fails to include something the Republicans want).

Your post has helped bring me back to reality.  "don't do battle until battle is called for" -- that's great advice :).

I will, however, keep an eye on Lieberman's performance and how things actually work out.


[ Parent ]
This post is the perfect arguement for Better Democrats (0.00 / 0)
Not tryin to shill for DKos. I'm just sayin'.

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