Conservative Politics = Death

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 21:56


David's diary Cato Echoes Kristol's Point on Health Care is a stark reminder that conservative politics is intimately related to spreading human suffering, and yes, even death.  It's not just that conservatives are warmongers, moreso than liberals.  And it's not just that they care about money, and don't care who dies so they can get more of it.  Both those are quite true, of course, but they are only secondary manifestations.  One can turn from one form of conservatism to another, over and over again, and repeatedly come up against this is one form or another: Conservative policies hurt people.  Conservative policies kill people.  And conservative policies tend to look worse to people as their lives become better.

The basic reason for this is quite simple, as George Lakoff, for one, has pointed out: empathy is a core liberal value, and because of it liberals don't believe in hurting people.  While this is true of many individual conservatives as well, it is true of them in spite of their conservative beliefs, not because of them.  Now that Bush is on the verge of leaving the national stage, it's worth recalling that he climbed up onto it under the banner of "compassionate conservatism," a tacit--if unintended--admission that conservatism normally is mean-spirited, if not downright cruel.  Only thing was, the same turned out to be true of "compassionate conservatism" as well.

Paul Rosenberg :: Conservative Politics = Death
Lakoff provides the most economically way of understanding what's going on here.  Conservatism derives from a family model that in turn is premised on a the presumption of a "dangerous world".  This does not simply mean a world with dangers in it.  No one doubts there are things that can harm one in the world.  The question is, are these characteristic of the world as a whole? Do they predominate to such an extent that one should always be focused on them, rather than the benign and beneficent aspects of the world?

Belief in a dangerous world means living with an ever-present underlying attitude of distrust, and this inevitably leads to taking on a greater or lesser degree of indifference, contempt and ultimately hostility towards ones fellow brothers and sisters.

This is why, for example, conservatives are so utterly incompetent in defending against terrorism.  Rather than focus on the relatively small group of terrorists who attacked us on 9/11--who could have been brought to justice within a matter of months--conservatives have decided that we had to go to war with the largest possible group of people we could find to pick a fight with.  If they have their way, we will ultimately be at war with the entire Moslem world, at the very least.

They claim, of course, that it is liberals who can't be trusted to counter terrorism.  Liberals are too weak, too indecisive, too easily bullied into submission by the evildoers out there.  It's considered "weak" to not go out and kill the innocent in a blind psychotic rage.

Well, we've tried that way for over seven years now, and it doesn't seem to be too much to ask that we try something different, something saner now, instead.

This is, of course, a "far left" thing to ask: instead of gasoline, let's try putting out the fire with something that doesn't feed it.


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Hobbes vs. Locke (4.00 / 2)
isn't it?

Yeah, It Is (0.00 / 0)
But not just Hobbes vs. Locke.

It's common to every form of conservatism.  That's what I was trying to stress.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Or Cain vs. Abel (0.00 / 0)


"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
"compassionate conservativism" was a slogan, nothing more (0.00 / 0)
Remember that Texas Gov. Bush, the "compassionate conservative," gleefully presided over the executions of over 150 death row inmates, and often seemed to be smirking as he did so, which was where, I believe, the circa 2001 anti-Bush website "Smirking Chimp" got its name.  

"Compassionate" was meant to suggest something different from nasty Newt Gingrich and those awful people who brought you the impeachment of Bill Clinton - as you point out, this is an interesting acknowledgment of conservatism's basic flaw - but there was never the slightest reality to it and not worth analyzing as a real phenomenon.  

I think your larger point is also correct.  It's always about a dangerous world that the "grownups" will protect you from.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Actually, It WAS More Than A Slogan (4.00 / 4)
It came from Marvin Olasky, and his fantasy history, The Tragedy of American Compassion.

It was a totally bogus historical argument in which mass death in the Victorian Age was preferable to mass survival in our own time, because the poor folks got Bibles in the 1890s.  (As if people can't get Bibles now, just because government workers don't hand them out.)

The fact that you don't even know about Olasky just goes to show how utterly dispensible ideas--even totally bogus ones--really are to conservatives. They are important only to support the claim that conservatives have ideas.  To ask them to actually remember them, or for the ideas to make any sense (much less be, you know, true) is simply making impossible elitist demands.  Probably in French.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Wow, yeah, I once knew that (4.00 / 2)
Olasky had something do with that but had forgotten about him.

Well let me amend my statement then.  In George Bush's hands, Compassionate Conservatism was never anything but a slogan.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Amendment Accepted! (0.00 / 0)
Or seconded, whatever.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
As Aaron Sorkin loved to rub in the right's face on the West Wing (4.00 / 1)
so often via Jed Bartlet's mastery of scripture, liberals actually know the bible better than conservatives. Put Clinton or Obama up against Gingrich or Bush on their knowledge of the bible, and they'd cut them to shreds. Hell, put them up against Dobson or Hagee, and they would. A literary reading of the bible is infinitely richer and more revealing than the literal one.

As the right is finding out these days, he who troubles his own house shall inherit the wind.

Oh, and my sig line.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Didn't William the Bloody ... (4.00 / 1)
This is why, for example, conservatives are so utterly incompetent in defending against terrorism.  Rather than focus on the relatively small group of terrorists who attacked us on 9/11--who could have been brought to justice within a matter of months--conservatives have decided that we had to go to war with the largest possible group of people we could find to pick a fight with.  If they have their way, we will ultimately be at war with the entire Moslem world, at the very least.

want to go to war with the Chinese soon after 9/11? .. Or was that after they downed our spy plane?  I know Kristol and his ilk had been agitating for war against Iraq for a long time .. but he seemed especially unhinged between 1998 and around the time the war actually started .. he was looking to start wars with anyone who he thought looked at him wrong


It Was The Spy Plane (4.00 / 1)
Insecure manhood.  Always gotta be fighting someone.

Only, of course, that means having someone else fighting someone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
ugh (0.00 / 0)
Theres no need to slander all conservatives. Conservatives believe each person or each family or each community is responsible for their own. The shouldn't be interfered with, and have an obligation to themself for their needs. It isn't about [i]hurting[/i] people, it is about the scope of responsibility and freedom.

hurting (4.00 / 1)
True, conservatism is technically about hurting people.  But it is about not helping people.  You say tomato, I say...

[ Parent ]
Nice Fairy Tale (0.00 / 0)
And yet, somehow it never comes true.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That's the exact problem with conservatism (4.00 / 2)
They define "interference" personally and insist that they're own definition of interference become a social and governing norm for everyone. Of course it's not about hurting people in their POV, just so long as they're not the ones feeling the pain.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
I think the deeper problem is too much abstract principles and not enough instantiated empathy. It is a system of thought that is based on incorrect ideas about humans psychology and society.

[ Parent ]
Conservatives slander themselves (4.00 / 1)
Through their continual heartlessness, selfishness and cruelty. Wrap it up in any ideological framework that you like, it is what it is. For a movement that continually harps about virtue and morality, it's ironic that it doesn't even begin to know what they are. Self-reliance is certainly a virtue, but not when it requires or condones taking from others what's not yours to take from them. And what your buddy Bush has done these past 8 years is take, take, take.

And nobody likes a cheat or thief.

Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
But which is it? (4.00 / 2)
Person, family, or community? Who is "their own," and what happens to people who are not "their own?"

Something I've noticed is, that circle of responsibility grows big or small, as needed, to justify their actions. It is only the size of the individual when we talk about guns, for example, yet it is the size of the "community" when we talk about gay marriage. And that "not interfering with" idea is really only for themselves, because what is more interfering than using the government to force women to have children against their wills?

Seriously, conservativism is nothing more than "every man for himself and devil take the hindmost." If there is one thing people should have learned from the past eight years, it is this.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Quite True (4.00 / 1)
The arbitrariness that you point to--how big is the circle?  what counts as "interfering"--is in part a function of the fact that they don't have a larger framework of systematic thought--which comes naturally as part of the package at Kegan's Level 4.

They have strong "principles", but they have no way to organize them.  This isn't that much of a problem in a fairly static traditional society, because society itself provides the framework for applying the principles.  Kegan at one point analogizes this to driving with an automatic transmission, where the adjustment of the gears gets done for you, and you don't even know it's happening.   But automatic transmissions aren't made for rapidly-changing circumstances, or driving on rough terrain.  And the modern world (i.e. the world since Early Modern Europe, even before the Protestant Reformation) is very much full of the sort of circumstances that automatic transmissions can't handle very well.  The unchanging social rules to guide the application of principles simply don't exist--at least not workable and sensible ones.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
There is no need (4.00 / 1)
to pretend that either party embodies any sort of consistent philosophy or worldview, especially in Lakoff's black-hat/white-hat formulation when in fact political parties are largely haphazard coalitions strung together by convenience.  The party of empathy for the working class was the party of racism, until the Southern strategy.

I'm sure it makes some people feel good, to believe that their politics are some sort of reflection of personal moral superiority.  The adults have no need of Lakoff's reassuarnces.



[ Parent ]
Simply Pretending That Someone Else Is An Idiot Doesn't Make It So (0.00 / 0)
Anyone who's actually familiar with Lakoff's work knows that you're lying out your ass.

Why do you continually do this?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It isn't as if (0.00 / 0)
I'm the only person on earth who finds Lakoff shallow, immature, and irrelevant.  A more detailed and objective discussion is here:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs...

Funny how disagreement is lying, in your eyes.  Not only that, but "continual" lying.

Seriously, though: what is the point of this "analysis" other than to make liberals feel superior?  You will find the exact same sort of analysis on freerepublic.  There, they believe that conservatives believe in the triumph of the human spirit and indepedence, because of their faith in the market and small government, and liberals believe in a "paternalistic" government and authoritarianism.  And it's equally invalid, immature, and pointless.


[ Parent ]
Empathy as a core value (0.00 / 0)
I may be as empathetic as the next person, or not, but isn't empathy a crappy value to guide hard political choices?

For example, I oppose the Iraq war because I am in favor of international law, and we were misled as to both the WMDs and the possibility of success.  If Bush had, in an alternative universe, made the case that Iraq were a threat and had a plan to create a stable government, I would likely support the war to this day, even though civilians would die.

I oppose torture because I believe in human rights, that everyone is entitled to a process to prove one's innocence, and because the empirical evidence shows torture doesn't work.  My view might change if the evidence were that the torturees were legitimately convicted and torture was the best way to gather evidence to save lives.

I support universal health care because I believe that government needs to create a system that delivers basic needs to as many people as possible, and the one we have fails on every measure.  I may feel differently about a system that left a smaller number of people excluded to some degree, if including them would cause greater hardship on others.

This is a dangerous, unfair world of limited resources.  No matter what governments do, someone suffers, and someone dies.  I wouldn't vote for anyone who stated that "empathy" was a "core" value.  


[ Parent ]
In my experience (4.00 / 1)
I think the extension to community is too much for most conservatives. Rarely does the concern extend beyond family and friends. Communities in a societal sense include people who don't think like you and who you don't know very well and aren't considered friends but acquaintances.

Where you get it right is "responsible for their own" which to me says "suck as much as you can out of society, culture and government as you can while giving as little back as possible".

Conservatism is a philosophy that draws circles to exclude those who are just outside what conservatives approve of. It's a philosophy that doesn't like differences and looks for them in every nook and cranny and uses them to exclude rather than revel in.



[ Parent ]
It's too bad conservatives don't know about Christianity, (4.00 / 1)
which teaches that it's not enough to love our friends, we must love our enemies, because after all even tax collectors love their friends.

Or Judaism, which teaches that we should be kind to the stranger "for you were strangers in Egypt."

Maybe we can just chalk religion up to "another thing conservatives don't do well."



Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
The religious conservatives insist (4.00 / 1)
they love everyone but it's just words backed by nothing. As long as they can say "I love gay people" with conviction then it's true in their minds.

After that everything they do such as take away their rights and treat them like second class citizens is done with love.


[ Parent ]
The one right way (4.00 / 5)
As someone who was raised in a conservative household, I can attest to the conservative mindset as being one that is totally committed to the belief that there is only "one true" perspective on every situation. This unwillingness to imagine all the possible solutions to a problem, due to ideological blinders, leads many conservative approaches to problem solving to march off the cliff into disaster. For instance, as this nation marched off to war in Iraq, no one  on the conservative side was brave enough to ask the question "What if we're wrong." Conservatives just don't think that way. They're "sure" that if the ideology "works" then the conclusion is right and there's no need to consider other POVs. It becomes a form of self-righteousness akin to a religion.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

Good point (4.00 / 1)
An many ways, the opposite of a conservative isn't a liberal, but another conservative raised in a different culture, with different "right" answers.

But stepping back, we realize those different conservatives in different cultures have much in common, as well, even if the "one right way" may differ between them.


[ Parent ]
Opposite? (0.00 / 0)
Not sure that's the right word, because a true opposite would allow for ambiguity rather than insisting on certaintude that is ideologically driven. But never the less, I get your point that the Taliban, for instance, is an opposite to free market capitalists in that they have a strict set of values that is as unwavering as George Will's, yet they aren't going to agree on the actual outcomes of their ideology.

Save Our Schools! March & National Call to Action, July 28-31, 2011 in Washington, DC: http://www.saveourschoolsmarch...

[ Parent ]
Those who voted no (4.00 / 2)
Seven Republicans votes against the Authorization of Military Force (AUMF), 1 Senator and 6 Representatives.  Only two still survive, Ron Paul and Jimmy Duncan.  Duncan probably meeets the criteria as a conservative opposed to the war.  Most of the rest were moderates (Lincoln Chafee, Amo Houghton, Jim Leach, Connie Morella).  John Hostettler was kind of a maverick conservative.

So the answer is Duncan and possibly Hosteeler fit the bill as conserevatives opposed to the war.  At best, 1%.


[ Parent ]
I see this allthe time (4.00 / 2)
in the way that conservatives present their view of a given issue as a categorical imperative. I.e. it's not just their opinion, but indisputible fact that cannot possibly be refuted, so there's no point in discussion or arguing about it. I've been told that it's just a tactic intended to shut down debate before it starts, and perhaps it is. But I also sense that it's actually how they think. Invading Iraq was justified because invading Iraq was justified. It just was. Circular and self-referential "logic" are hallmarks of conservative "thinking".

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
The real question is.. (0.00 / 0)
...will we be able to peel off those 2 (hopefully 1) senators that we need to get our bills past cloture?

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


Specter should be one .. (0.00 / 0)
considering how Democrats have won statewide here lately .. Specter has to be shitting his pants if Sestak or Patrick Murphy decides to run

[ Parent ]
Important reminder, Paul (4.00 / 1)
The darkness in the conservative heart is real, and very sad in its way. A great challenge is to find compassion for that dark heart, without capitulating to its consuming desire for authority and control.

It's dark, but smart. Their efforts at making human empathy seem a liberal weakness have been too often successful, in part because they have the advantage of conscience-free death dealing.

But dark-hearted conservatives are never happy, their desire never fulfilled, the universe always far beyond the control they seek. And that's sad, even in the murderous.


It's funny... (4.00 / 3)
Some of them basically admit this to me.

A friend of mine who I consider a generally smart guy said that the human condition requires some sort of "bogeyman" like thing to fight against in order to feel... secure?  Happy?  Err, motivated?  I have no idea.  He just thought it was part of the human condition.

I presented him with the alternative that perhaps that mindset is what gets us into trouble, and that rather than seek out the next bogeyman we should try to tolerate our differences (to the extent that our differences don't infringe on each other's human/civil rights). This didn't seem to compute with him... he rather thought that the world needed to be more like Orwell's 1984, apparently.


A typical defense of this stance (4.00 / 3)
is that tree-hugging liberals live in idyllic fantasy worlds in which they've never been subjected to the world's evils, and thus have no knowledge of them. Try to explain that to Elie Wiesel, Nelson Mandela or all those liberal New Yorkers who lived through 9/11 (like me).

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
This Is A VERY Important Point (4.00 / 2)
What this shows, once you think about it, is just what chickenshits conservatives really are, underneath all that bluster.  They are the ones who scare easily.  They are the ones who can't confront the evil in the world.  They go all into a tizzy if someone wants to dance, for cryin' out loud, at the same time that they take slavery for granted.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Even self-styled RW "tough guys" like Liddy or North (0.00 / 0)
I think, are insecure cowards at bottom. Being ok with cruelty and constantly flexing one's muscles doesn't make one tough. It makes one a bully. They all appear to be on the verge of tears when their worldview is (rightly) challenged and ridiculed. Not the tears of a grown man, but that of a 12 year old boy whose daddy was just made fun of by the other boys. That is the age at which a typical wingnut stops developing emotionally and spiritually--i.e. just before the maturing process of adolescence and young adulthood.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
People do that all that the time. (4.00 / 2)
They overgeneralize, think that "because I am this way, everyone is this way." It sounds like your friend is one of them.

You should say to him (if you are good enough friends to joke about it) "that's not part of the human condition, it's part of your condition." And who knows, he might think about it, because authoritarian followers want very much to fit in.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Next step (4.00 / 3)
Your thesis makes a lot of sense. Taking it one step further, we could probably argue that Conservatives try to force others to be like them so there won't be so many scary people in the world. The definition of scary people being those who don't look, sound, act, and think like me, of course.

my dad was a conservative (4.00 / 2)
he was 100% pro war on vietnam. i was 1-y, i wasn't going anyplace. i couldn't get him to come around on the war. he loved numbers, so one day i asked him to keep a tabulation of the body count for us. that did it, in a very short time he was calling us cannon fodder. he didn't change his ideology. is there is anyway to do that? i don't know.

Compartmentalization? (4.00 / 1)
It's something conservatives seem to be very, very good at. "Here is fact A, and here is fact B, and there is no relationship whatsoever between the two."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well done (4.00 / 1)
I cross posted this here. I hope you don't mind. As you pointed out, conservatives are a problem everywhere.

Thanks! (4.00 / 1)
You're absolutely right.  There's very little difference in the core of conservatism whereever it is found.  The history of how the orthodox have persecuted Sufis throughout the history of Islam is most instructive as an example on this point.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Lot's of good ideas around here (4.00 / 2)
In regards to the related article about Malaysian yoga, I've started a google ad campaign that is only running in Malaysia that includes the words "deviant" and 'imperialism" and whose keywords include the name of the spokesperson for the council. Even if some government toady blocks my blog they probably can't stop the google campaign.

[ Parent ]
Health care is important... (0.00 / 1)
Health care is important in order to for a person to be healthy. If the people of a country were not healthy there would be a decrease on production because a person who has sickness could not function well. That's why the government must not set aside the health care of the people. However the American system of economics and of medicine are both in great periods of constraint. Regulation has hampered access to medical care and to financial options, such as short term installment loans. For emergencies, there should still be options open for both medicine and for finances. Read more Short Term Installment Loans .

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