Now The DLC Is Leftist

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 18:30


Note: I don't usually think it is cool to single out individual commenters since they don't have an equal platform with which to respond, but I was pushed on this one by multiple people in the comments. So, please consider it a respectful rebuttal rather than an angry singling out. Also, consider it a rare event. I'm not going to make a habit of this--Chris

Over the past week, I have argued on several occasions that Obama's cabinet picks have been unanimously centrist so far. Commenter devilrays disputes this, and provides the following ideological classification of the picks so far:

1. Liberals / progressives: Hillary Clinton, Janet Napolitano, Eric Holder, Bill Richardson, Tom Daschle, John Podesta, and Rahm Emanuel

2. Moderates / centrists: Timothy Geithner, Lawrence Summers

3. Conservatives / Republicans: Robert Gates, Jim Jones

It will come as no surprise that, with the possible exception of Eric Holder, I completely disagree with the top cabinet and White House classifications who are listed here as "liberals / progressives." I won't discuss John Podesta, who doesn't occupy either an Obama administration position or a cabinet one. Instead, Podesta is leading Obama's transition team.

The main justification used in the above classifications are voting records provided by various organizations. The inadequacy of such a measure should be obvious to all those who follow Congress closely. Simply put, Congress does not vote on, nor do issue group voting records measure, a broad range of ideologically varied legislation. Members of Congress vote on legislation brought before their committee, and on legislation brought to the floor of their given branch of Congress. Left-wing legislation has reached the floor of Congress on rare occasions during the past fourteen years. Opposing the Bush administration most of the time, along with 70% of the country, does not necessarily make someone left-wing.

In order to develop a fuller picture of an individual's ideological leanings, consider the causes they have championed and, even more importantly, the groups with whom they publicly associate. It is in this way that Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, Rahm Emanuel, Janet Napolitano and Bill Richardson are most clearly and easily understood as centrists. This is because, within the Democratic Party, all five of them associate with the Democratic Leadership Council and various "New" Democratic organizations. These are groups that were founded explicitly to push the Democratic Party to the right and to allow their membership means to avoid being labeled left-wing.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Now The DLC Is Leftist
First, while Hillary Clinton calls herself a progressive, she is also one of the five participants in the Third Way roundtable discussion, which is about as overtly centrist as is humanly possible.  Third Way, as an ideological term, is synonymous with centrism. Clinton is also on the senior leadership for the Democratic Leadership Council, an organization designed to push the Democratic Party to the right. If Hillary Clinton is the new definition of liberals / progressives, then so is the DLC. Of course, last year the DLC justified its tax-exempt status by claiming that Republicans actually support DLC positions more than Democrats:

The DLC responds that its exclusive purpose is to develop and promote its "Third Way" agenda and that some causes it has lobbied for--e.g., welfare reform, fast-track approval of free-trade agreements--got more Republican than Democratic votes in Congress.

Second, both Janet Napolitano and Bill Richardson are "New Democrats." A quick list of the Governors who consider themselves "New Democrats" can be found here. As with Third Way and the DLC, the various New Democratic organizations were founded in order to push the Democratic Party to the right, and provide a way for their memberships to avoid being identified as left-wing. Even though Third Way denies that this is it's purpose, consider the etymological origin of the term "Blue Dog," a related organization:

"Blue Dog Democrat" is playfully derived from the original term Yellow Dog Democrat. It was former Texas Democratic Rep. Pete Geren who said that the members had been "choked blue" by those "extreme" Democrats, from the left.[2] Thus, he is credited for coining the term Blue Dog Democrat.

Blue Dogs are overtly anti-lefitst. In the previous session of Congress, the Blue Dogs and the New Democrats shared 15 members, roughly 30% of their overall membership. That is a lot of overlap. The reason these groups can share so many members is because the two groups share primary reasons for their existence: to push the party to the right and distance themselves from the left. Consider how the New Democrats describe themselves, while keeping in mind the origin of the term "Blue Dog:"

Founded in 1997, The New Democrat Coalition (NDC) provides moderate, pro-growth Members of Congress with the opportunity to advance a common sense policy agenda to move our country in the right direction. New Democrats have built a reputation as the "go-to" group in Congress on the critical issues of economic growth, national security, personal responsibility, and technology development.

Hailing from every region of the country, New Democrats are intent on modernizing both the Democratic Party and the country.

So, one group wants to prevent being "'choked blue' by those 'extreme' Democrats from the left," while the other is intent on "modernizing the Democratic Party and the country." Given that the two groups share 30% of their membership, and that they both vote noticeably to the right of the rest of the Democratic Party, it isn't difficult to figure out that Blue Dogs and New Democrats exist, at least in part, as a means for centrist and conservative Democrats to push the party to the right, and to distance their membership from the left.

Moving along, Rahm Emanuel was a member of the New Democratic coalition when he was in the House, and centrists have mourned his leaving the House as a major downturn for centrist power within the Democratic caucus. Further, Tom Daschle was one of about three-dozen Democrats who, in 2004, were endorsed by the New Democratic Network PAC. Every candidate who won went on to join the New Democratic coalition in Congress. Also, it is worth keeping in mind what NDN's endorsement criteria were like back then:

To ensure that liberals don't slip through the cracks, NDN requires each politician who seeks entree to its largesse and contacts to fill out a questionnaire that asks his or her views on trade, economics, education, welfare reform, and other issues. The questions are detailed, forcing candidates to state clearly whether or not they support views associated with the New Democrat Coalition, and it concludes by asking, "Will you join the NDC when you come to Congress?" Next, Rosenberg interviews each candidate, and then NDN determines which candidacies are viable before providing financial support.

New Democrats, including Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, Rahm Emanuel, Janet Napolitano and Bill Richardson, are not leftists. They all associate with, and have received the endorsement of, groups that are largely designed to thwart the left-wing of the Democratic Party, and to otherwise save America from leftists. To then call them leftists and claim that most of Obama's cabinet picks have been leftists so far is to equate groups like the Blue Dogs, Third Way, the DLC and New Democrats with leftism, even though they all of those groups were founded explicitly to organize against, and distance their membership, from the left.

So, that leaves us with Eric Holder. Since he was never in Congress, there is comparatively little public record about the causes he has championed and the groups he has associated with. However, representing Chiquita in a dispute with the Justice Department over funding right-wing paramilitary groups in Columbia is not very promising. Still, I admit that I don't think Holder's record is as clear, so I will reserve judgment.

At the very least, that leaves only one of the five cabinet picks discussed here as possibly left-wing. It should be noted that Tom Daschle might (I re-emphasize might) be in the opposite situation as Hillary Clinton, in that he will be overseeing a policy area where he actually is progressive, even though his overall record is not. I have also heard from sources that I trust that Daschle, unlike Harry Reid, regularly encouraged the Democratic Senate caucus to take a more progressive approach. I didn't hear any examples, and I am just repeating what I have heard. So, maybe Daschle will be alright. I have a wait and see attitude on his tenure.

Still, this does mean that Obama's current cabinet picks, or his rumored to be leading choices, are almost entirely Republicans or DLC "New" Democrats. To put my complaint more succinctly, it is a centrist cabinet lacking any clear progressives. While there are at least three examples of progressives scoring senior staff positions within the White House, the same cannot be said, as of this writing, of the cabinet picks. If this really is going to be an administration that listens to diverse voices, we need representation in both areas. Right now, progressives are not represented in the new cabinet.


Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
I think (4.00 / 4)
 that Holder is pretty progressive especially as it relates to the War on Terror, speaking against warrantless wiretapes, Gitmo, and torture.

As for Daschle, if you agree he is progressive on the one issue he is in the cabinet to deal with, healthcare, how can you not consider him a progressive pick?

And what, specifically is your objection to Richardson?

 


Read closer (4.00 / 10)
I said that Daschle might be more progressive on that issue. I didn't say it was a certainty.

Hopefully, after 1,600 words, my objections were clear: if you overtly associate with groups that overtly work against leftists, then you should not be considered a leftist. My broader point is that Obama's picks have been centrists. That Obama's Democratic cabinet picks almost all overtly associate with overtly centrist groups is the proof for that argument.

The jury is out on Holder. Opposing torture and warrantless wiretapping does not make someone a progressive in and of itself. We will have to see more of what he does.


[ Parent ]
It is kind of funny (4.00 / 2)
 That even after the election Obama is still be attacked via association.  

[ Parent ]
sfd (4.00 / 2)
some people don't know how to be happy. Our side one. Let's think of new ways to ensure that Obama's agenda, which by all accounts, would be the most progressive agenda since LBJ get's implemented. But noooooo, we must spend our time attacking very competent people as not being progressive. I can see if it's 2010 and all we've gotten was the same ish we've been getting. Three weeks ago our side won. It's amazingly and shockingly pathetic. I wonder when embarrassment sets in.

[ Parent ]
Ummm (4.00 / 11)
Let's think of new ways to ensure that Obama's agenda, which by all accounts, would be the most progressive agenda since LBJ, get's implemented.

"By all accounts" is basically what? Stuff people said? You'll have to pardon the less faithful among us.

I don't think anyone will oppose a progressive agenda if and when such a thing emerges.

In the mean time, what you have is appointments. Which haven't been all that awesome.

The early Clinton years were very similar. A lot of goodwill and trust, followed by Epic Failure to actually get any results. Obama not only needs help implementing his agenda, he needs pressure from the people to do the right thing.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
This comment needs to be repeated endlessly (0.00 / 0)
when we bitch and moan about jumping the gun on criticising Obama.  

[ Parent ]
You want to (4.00 / 2)
compare every elected president's campaign agenda since LBJ? His platform was certainly more progressive then Carter's and it would be hard to argue it's less progressive then Clinton's.

And you'd be delusional if you said he's less progressive then any Republican president in modern history.

Obama certainly ran on a much more progressive platform then anything Carter or Clinton did. I'd be interested if you wanted to try to prove otherwise.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
Campaign Platform != Governing Agenda != Actual Outcomes (0.00 / 0)
It's not about semantics of who's platform is "more progresive." That's a distraction at best and I'm afraid I'm  not interested in debating Carter vs. LBJ vs. Clinton.

I'm interested in the president elect, and in words vs. deeds.

Thusfar, the deeds (few that they are) are falling well short of the words. So we push back.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
It is kind of funny (4.00 / 5)
That even after the election Obamaphiles won't hold him accountable for anything -- not even the personnel choices of his own campaign team.



I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I'd consider myself an "Obamaphile" (0.00 / 0)
and yet I think it's entirely useful to examine his cabinet and other staffing choices. He's got the hardest job in the world with enormous pressure from wealthy elites who control the media and don't want the status quo tampered with. Standing up for our agenda is just basic democracy. Otherwise we're just trading in an incompetent asshole dictator for a hopefully competent benevolent dictator, but a dictator nonetheless.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
And if he does, that will be great (0.00 / 0)
I'm reacting to the "Wait til he does something" meme, which I consider destructive.

If you're an Obama-phile who will call b*****t, then you're doing the Lord's work!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Oh I see (4.00 / 9)
Criticizing him for his cabinet appointments is the same thing as attacking him for knowing Bill Ayers. Yeah, that is what I am saying.

That is pretty fucking offensive to make that implication.


[ Parent ]
My point wasnt to offend (0.00 / 0)
 But why not wait until you actually see what policies he adopts, or even until he actually takes office, before attacking him.

 


[ Parent ]
Good idea (4.00 / 10)
I should have refrained from criticizing John McCain during the campaign, because he hadn't taken office yet at the time. For all I knew, he was going to be a big progressive.

We should always wait until laws are passed before criticizing them, and wait until politicians are elected before doing the same. Criticizing laws before they are passed or politicians before they are elected is unproductive.

That's a good idea. And while we are at it, why don't you refrain from criticizing me until I take office? I'm not in office yet, so I fail to see why you should be criticizing me.


[ Parent ]
What policies of Obama's (0.00 / 0)
 has he changed since he won?  

[ Parent ]
Although I do concede your point (0.00 / 0)
 to some degree,

What policies does he prepose that you

1.) Object to
2.) are different than he ran on

 


[ Parent ]
Oh for the love of God (4.00 / 8)
Not everything is policy and legislation--a lot of it is management and administration. Most of what the President does is appoint people who then manage and administer the entire executive branch. The most important of those people are the cabinet secretaries.

I have been criticizing his appointments, not his policies. His appointements will mange the government, and advise on policies. If those appointements are centrist, then the government will be managed in a centrist fashion, and the advice he receive will be centrist. And then well, I'm sure you will come up with another one-line response to change the subject anyway. How you even got to asking me "what policies has be changed" in a post discussing cabinet appointements is beyond me.


[ Parent ]
You administer based on policies (0.00 / 0)
 So yes, actual agendas do matter.

But fair enough, we can return soley to the issue of the cabinet.

 What is the point to which you will be satisfied? If after you learn more about Holder, and more about Daschle and his health care policy and if you are satisfied that both are progressive, at least within the spheres they will handle, will that reassure you?

   


[ Parent ]
Taking office. (4.00 / 3)
Err, Chris ... Pennsylvania State Democratic Committee?  I heard something about it on the radio last week. :)

[ Parent ]
Big difference... (0.00 / 0)
Obama proposed ambitious plans that we (potentially) liked.  We hope that Obama will follow-through and implement his agenda.

McCain proposed an agenda that we don't like, we didn't want to see implemented, etc.  It's easy to criticize when we don't agree with what's proposed.

I certainly agree with having a healthy dose of skepticism, but at the same time if Obama is able to implement his agenda that he talked about, that's what I'll be judging him by.  Do his appointments indicate what he'll do?  Maybe... but maybe not.  We'll have to wait and see.


[ Parent ]
good cop bad cop (0.00 / 0)
Whether such skepticism proves well founded is not the entire point. There is no downside to criticizing from the left. At best, we can pressure Obama to move left. At worst, it works as a good cop/bad cop situation where whatever positions he takes look all the more reasonable and centrist to the other side. Either way, criticism from the left is helpful. I really don't understand the strategery of getting all worked up and defensive about criticizing Obama from the left. As long as we're not making personal or character based attacks, what's the problem?

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Well, here are two of them... (4.00 / 2)
before Obama even took office:

1. He voted for FISA.

2. He voted for the bailout and was in fact the major force in the Democratic Party pushing for it.

But, he is a progressive.


[ Parent ]
His policies as President-Elect (0.00 / 0)
 If your point is he wasnt a progressive senator, I disagree, but if that is your belief, then nothing has changed I guess.

 


[ Parent ]
So... (4.00 / 4)
no matter what laws Obama voted for, no matter who he chooses for his cabinet, he is a progressive because...why is that again?

[ Parent ]
If you dont consider him a progressive (0.00 / 0)
because of his senate record, then there is nothing to be upset about now. He would merely be fullfilling your expectations.  

[ Parent ]
Excellent post, Chris. (4.00 / 2)
It will be difficult to fight for real progressive change.  On the bright side, with a few notable exceptions like yourself and many front pagers here, Obama may be more left than many of the "netroots."  Scary, isn't it?

It's a long struggle.  

We need EFCA to build unions and build a real movement for change.  Obama may provide us social room to sucessfully organize.


[ Parent ]
Holder (4.00 / 7)
is strongly associated with the American Constitution Society, which is a pretty liberal organization as far as I can tell (Holder is on the board of directors, and has given keynote addresses to their convention in 2004 and 2008).

So based on the criteria for calling Clinton, Emmanuel, et al centrists in this post (which I don't necessarily disagree with), I think Holder probably counts as a liberal.


[ Parent ]
He very well might (0.00 / 0)
I'm learning more about him all the time.

[ Parent ]
He's also been (4.00 / 8)
a major donor to the ACS.

And he's donated to Waxman, Markey, Franken, Lehey, Whitehouse, Conyers and Linda Sanchez. A pretty good roster of progressives.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
I'm just saying (4.00 / 4)
that based on your post you seem to be arguing that people like Clinton and Emanuel are centrist because they have traveled in centrist circles and been major participants in centrist organizations, but not willing to call someone like Eric Holder a liberal despite (apparently) equally strong associations with liberal organizations.

I don't think past associations are destiny, but they certainly provide a good starting point for assessing someone's policies. Eric Holder should get as much "liberal cred" for liberal associations as Clinton, Emanuel, and others get "centrist cred" for centrist associations.


[ Parent ]
As an ACS lawyers' chapter chair (4.00 / 2)
I sure as hell hope we're progressive.

[ Parent ]
good clarification (4.00 / 11)
Lots of Open Left commenters are confused about progressivism, progressive policies and who has progressive records. You start to make this all clear in this post. There were a lot of posts when Open Left was founded last year that explained all of this too .. what is Open Left, what do progressives fight for, what's the difference with progressives, old liberalism and Democratic centrism. Maybe it's time to put together a greatest hits library of old posts so newer readers can understand where you're coming from.

definitions and soul-searching (0.00 / 0)
     I have heard that there will be a lot of soul-searching (and finger-pointing) among the Republicans. They will ask themselves: "Why did we lose? Was it Bush? Was it McCain? Was it Palin? Were we too moderate or too conservative or too old or too inexperienced or... what?"
    We can hope that this finger-pointing keeps them divided and fighing amongst themselves at least until after the 2010 mid-term elections.
    On our side, there is soul-searching as well. There were a few pro-Clinton or anti-Obama Democrats who either supported McCain or stayed home on election day. But most of us really, REALLY did not want to see McCain carry out a third Bush term.
    Now that we have won, though... what next? Open Left is supposed to promote Progressive values, and not just Democratic ones. I am a bit fuzzy at times on which lines separate progressives from liberals from moderates/
centrists from conservatives. I am 100% anti-Bush and mostly anti-conservative, but I like some moderates. I REALLY agree with T Maysle; please PLEASE post some sort of "progressive scorecard" to help us keep track of what is Left and what is Center. Having those definitions handy will help us save a lot of time on pointless arguments.

1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) - "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."/ GOP = Greedy Old Privatizers or Greedy Old Privateers?

[ Parent ]
A question never answered... (4.00 / 5)

 ...is why these people self-identify as "Democrats" to begin with.

  Rahm Emanuel, in particular, has never to my knowledge been associated with any legislation that actually embodies traditional Democratic values. For all his reputation as an aggressive attack dog, his legislative behaviors suggest that his deepest desire is approval from Republicans. And that applies, to a comparable extent, to the other figures on the list, Hillary included.

 And one wonders why they don't do what is obvious -- become Republicans, explicitly, and leave the Democratic Party to, well, Democrats.

 Really, if you love war, hate labor, worship Joe Lieberman and scoff at Howard Dean, what the hell are you doing in the Democratic Party anyway?
 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


While I basically agree with Chris (4.00 / 1)
There are a lot of former Republicans - and Obamicans who are now in the party.

I basically agree with Chris in that I am disappointed at the lack of progressives (so far) in the cabinet. But not all Democrats are progressives.

And what would be wrong is to exclude dissenting Democrats. That's what Republicans have done over the past 8 years (and more). We are not that party.

Yes, this puts me in opposition to the "Bush Dog" thrust on this site.

But I'm a believer in working with - in finding areas of agreement with other Democrats.

One more bit - I don't know much in terms of Geithner's positions - at least for now, I'd put him in a fourth category: Technocrat - as in someone who solves problems as opposed to someone who leans politically one way or another.


[ Parent ]
It's not really about exclusion (4.00 / 2)

 I was just wondering how a Rahm Emanuel, who doesn't have a progressive bone in his body, came to personally identify as a Democrat to begin with. To the point where he sought out the Democratic Party infrastructure to cultivate his ambitions.

 I mean, if during your political formative years you realize that you're anti-labor and pro-war, wouldn't you naturally gravitate to the Republican Party and try to develop your career there? Why DID Rahm Emanuel (and others like him, like Harold Ford) identify as a Democrat to begin with?

 That's the question I've never gotten a good answer for.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
he was an original co-sponsor of the EFCA (4.00 / 2)
I don't think it is really fair to call him anti-labor. I think you could fairly call him a mixed bag on labor issues, given his past support for NAFTA and similar trade deals.

But he isn't a Republican, and even a cursory examination of his voting record will show that.

Just because he is towards the center of the Democratic party doesn't make Emanuel a Republican.


[ Parent ]
Pro-Labor and Pro-NAFTA are mutually exclusive (4.00 / 3)

 Labor is THE Democratic constituency. Working people are the main reason the Democratic Party exists.

 You can't be a "mixed bag" on labor and be a good Democrat.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
noone believes this (0.00 / 0)
labour comes a distant umpteenth behind environment, gay rights, abortion, middle class kids going to college, medicaire, and a shitload of other bourgeois demands. Democrats are not the party of labour.  

[ Parent ]
Answer (4.00 / 3)
Everyone in Chicago politics is a "Democrat".  The term is essentially meaningless there, and real elections happen during the primaries.

[ Parent ]
not to become a Rahm apologist (4.00 / 3)
but he is also liberal on family planning/choice and on the environment.

He is bad on trade and most foreign policy issues.

Yes, he is nowhere near perfect, but it isn't like he has no liberal positions. He just doesn't have liberal positions on war and trade. If you think liberalism is entirely defined by war and trade, sure, he doesn't have a progressive bone in his body. I happen to think that there are other issues that are pretty important too, and on many of those issues Emanuel has often been pretty good, so I think it is more complicated than just "he's actually a Republican."  


[ Parent ]
Emanuel (4.00 / 2)
I certainly don't disagree with Chris that Emanuel is basically a centrist, but I think this post is rather extreme.

Here is some legislation that Rahm Emanuel was either the sponsor of, or an original co-sponsor of:

A bill to allow the re-importation of prescription drugs from Canada.

A bill to provide criminal penalties for certain voter suppression tactics.

An amendment to prohibit the use of executive branch funds to fund the office of the Vice President, as he has stated that he is not part of the executive branch.

The Employee Free Choice Act of 2007.

That is just a sampling of what I found with 10 minutes on Thomas. While he wasn't pushing the left wing of the party to be sure, it isn't like Rahm Emanuel votes like a Republican.


[ Parent ]
A much needed post (4.00 / 2)
But it begs the questions - what power does the DLC hold at this juncture? To what degree is Obama calling the shots, and to what degree will his staff follow his lead, and vice versa?

You're analysis is based on the idea that 'once a centrist, always a centrist'. Well, it's a new era in politics following '06 and '08, so I wonder to what degree the DLC vision, and those involved in crafting it, will shift to the left.

I'm not arguing that it WILL shift to the left, but it seems awfully presumptuous to assume that the centrist trend in the Dem party and the individuals who support it cannot change due to changing circumstances. After all, one set of circumstances resulted in the creation and rise to power of 'third way' Democrats, so couldn't another set of circumstances usher in their demise?  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


yep, we're seeing a lot of "New Democrats" from the 80s and 90s, at best. (4.00 / 4)
And at worst, we're getting Blue Dogs and moderate Republicans.

This isn't exactly in line with what Obama campaigned on. I'm not saying that Obama has shown definitive evidence that he's about to back down on campaign promises. But it does make you scratch your head on his level of commitment to statements like "let's re-evaluate trade deals like NAFTA that haven't been fair to American workers", or "what I oppose is a dumb war", or "I reject the idea that talking to our enemies is somehow letting them win", or "the old philosophy that prosperity will just trickle down has been discredited".

Yeah, maybe Obama will whip his cabinet into shape. But it's also possible that his cabinet will whip him: "The executive keeps telling me that I need to tack to the center because of political reasons, or because the current situation calls for the same approach that we used in the 1980s and 1990s." Policies may get put through a real hardcore filter that hurts America in the long run.

Probably our best insurance is to see some real progressives in the White House. We're not even asking to run the show, at this point. We're just worried that progressives aren't even invited to the most important table in the country.


well, Summers has certainly changed his tune (4.00 / 1)
The former high priest of Rubinomics is now calling for $700 billion plus in infrastructure investment and massive new regulation.

I certainly don't think anybody should discount what these people did in the 1980s and 1990s, but let's at least acknowledge that they are currently saying the right things.


[ Parent ]
I think it's possible that there's been a huge mental shift (4.00 / 5)
and not just a huge political shift. If you have someone like Ben Stein, a pretty hardcore intellectual conservative, advocating for a bailout of the auto industry... then yes, a lot of shit has been flipped on its head. And even a high priest of Rubinomics, let alone Reaganomics, could see the light of reality.

But if I can acknowledge that, then you have to acknowledge the warning signs. Not a "sky is falling" kind of warning, but a "let's be vigilant and remember to hold our government to a high standard" kind of warning.


[ Parent ]
of course (4.00 / 1)
I'm happy to acknowledge that there are warning signs. I think it is clear that Obama is appointing a Cabinet (so far) that is much more centrist than liberal, and that a lot of the people he is appointing to enact his policies have supported some questionable (or downright destructive, even) policies in the past.

That they are saying the right things now is encouraging, but no guarantee.


[ Parent ]
I think this is all pretty fair (4.00 / 1)
and I think that openleft has done a good job identifying the warning signs, but they haven't done the best job of separating speculation from what we actually know. i think this debate is mostly about tone. (although there are a lot of people who will be thrilled to repeat the Clinton years.)

[ Parent ]
But the devil is in the details. (4.00 / 2)
Infrastructure investment, sure, that sounds good.

But is the work being done by union workers, or by Kellogg Brown & Root, who then turn around and use prison labor for less than $1 an hour, and keep the change?

Is that $700 billion for us, really, or just another handout for the usual suspects?

Personally I find the Kellogg Brown & Root version easier to believe than that the leopard Larry Summers has changed his spots.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
um... the prison labor thing would be entirely (0.00 / 0)
counterproductive, economically speaking...

i agree that we should fight to ensure that unions get these jobs, and that workers employed by the state can unionize if they aren't already, but i can't see the money not going to workers, in large measure (as this is, after all, the entire point of the stimulus).  


[ Parent ]
I don't know ... (0.00 / 0)
It is easy to emphasize what one wants to hear.

Obama did campaign an awful lot about "post partisanship" and "reaching across the aisle" ... one of the things the Clinton campaing criticized iirc


[ Parent ]
Cognitive dissonance (4.00 / 5)
People can't handle the way that Obama's cabinet is shaping up, so they keep moving the goalposts to reassure themselves that there's actually plenty of progressives in his administration.

We may have reached the point of psychological discomfort where we actually need a checklist of things that progressives stand for. I'll offer one:

1. Single-payer healthcare.
2. Reducing the military budget.
3. Ending the death penalty.
4. Opposition to free trade.
5. A carbon tax.

Show me a member of Obama's cabinet who supports one of the above, and I'll give you my hat.


your 5 things of importance are silly. (4.00 / 1)
why? because i say so. Anyone can come up with their own top five.

Also, Pat Buchanan is against free trade. He's more liberal than Richardson?


[ Parent ]
That's a worthless contribution (4.00 / 1)
Would you argue that since Buchanan is against free trade, he is more liberal than Richardson? If you think you're skewering my argument, you need to learn something about arguments.

[ Parent ]
sdfd (0.00 / 0)
I'm showing you the stupidity of progressive litmus tests by noting that someone you likely abhor agrees with you on some issues.

[ Parent ]
Of course people I abhor people who (4.00 / 1)
Agree with me on some issues. There are racists who believe in universal health care and there are pedophiles who think we need to do something about global warming.

The five issues I listed are sufficiently unrelated to each other that they are not a "litmus test" so much as a definition of what it means to be a progressive. If you disagree with them, then you're not a progressive, and I'd be surprised if any of Obama's appointments thus far are in favor of any of those positions.


[ Parent ]
sorry, but I'm progressive (4.00 / 2)
and I'm pro free trade and am not for a single payer health care system. Get off your high horse. You don't get to define what progressive means.

[ Parent ]
That's the problem with defining an ideology around specific policy goals (0.00 / 0)
No one will ever come to an (already almost impossible to come by) agreement.

What ideas form the basis of what you call "progressivism" since you self-identify as such?


[ Parent ]
You're not progressive. (4.00 / 1)
You're a biconceptual.
Ever hear of George Lakoff?

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

[ Parent ]
You're not progressive. (0.00 / 0)
You're a biconceptual.
Ever hear of George Lakoff?

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

[ Parent ]
When I worked for the big airplane company (0.00 / 0)
I was pro-Free Trade, and a pro-Dukakis progressive.

Things have changed. I see that current free trade agreements hurt us.

But I believe it is possible to have progressive free trade agreements.

Just need appropriate bits about labor rights and environmental protection for all countries in the agreement.


[ Parent ]
That is not a counter argument. (4.00 / 3)
Calling someone's point silly is not an argument.

Those are 5 key issues most progressives would sign on to, and there are a lot progressive groups working on them.

Sad to see the day when "silly" is the best a commenter can do.  

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  


[ Parent ]
That's a pretty simplistic (0.00 / 0)
list. Many progressives (myself included) think cap and trade is a more effective way to go and that a HCAN style healthcare plan is more realistic at the moment then single-payer which it could very well transition to eventually. Also immigration reform and civil liberties (End torture, Guantanamo, etc) I think are more important then the military budget and the death penalty.

He's a mainstream progressive who is for a HCAN style healthcare plan, immigration reform, free and fair trade and a cap-auction-invest system to reducing global warming and restoring basic civil liberties. That's what he campaigned on.

I just don't get this. Can anyone point to major differences between the plans Obama campaigned on and his advisers views? Obviously there are some in the details (mandates for one) but none of them don't support the basic vision he laid out on the campaign trail. Obama is basically staffing up with smart, well respected people who basically share his views. If any of them have some kind of major difference with his campaign pledges or convince him to change a policy then that's a problem. But right now he's staffing up with people who agree with his platform, is that so surprising?


John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
You can't just call yourself a progressive (4.00 / 4)
And then advocate non-progressive positions. We have to show more respect for language: words need to retain their meaning.

Cap and trade is a bullshit solution to global warming that will lead to all manner of complex loopholes which allow big business to continue dumping carbon into the atmosphere at their current levels.

A HCAN style healthcare plan may be more realistic at the moment, but that does not make it progressive. It is also a bullshit compromise to a severe problem.

Civil liberties are hugely important, and even more so given the systematic attack that the Bush administration has launched upon them. These liberties however are basic, and simply reinstating the Constitution as the foundation of our government has more to do with fixing damage than a vision for the future. We also do not need to discuss whether civil liberties are more important than the military budget or the death penalty. They are all important and they should all be acted upon.

I'm under no illusion as to Obama's policy positions and I agree that his advisors and appointees largely share his views. It is very important, however, for the sake of intellectual honesty, and for the sanity of us all, that we don't describe these as progressive positions. Because they are not.


[ Parent ]
I'm talking about (4.00 / 1)
cap-auction and invest. Cap and giveaway style cap and trade as practiced in Europe doesn't work but cap-auction and invest is a much better solution to reducing emissions and done right it does not have loopholes. I'd be happy to debate you on that if you want to post a diary advocating for a carbon tax over cap and auction.

And if your going to redefine progressive only as rigidly for single-payer and a carbon tax, then yes, Barack Obama is not a progressive. And if not supporting those as the only solutions make you not a progressive then I'm not sure I'd qualify and I don't think a whole lot of people would either.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
I'm not redefining (4.00 / 2)
The thing that single-payer healthcare and a carbon tax have in common is that they both go up against big business and the profit motive, and this is what makes them progressive.

Proponents of single-payer argue that healthcare should not be administered on a for-profit basis. It is a fundamental human need, not a product to be consumed for the benefit of insurance companies. The various "compromise" health plans that have been proposed by the likes of Obama, Clinton and Max Baucus are not progressive because they allow insurance companies to continue existing on a for-profit basis. They are the very epitome of incremental, centrist thinking.


[ Parent ]
OK (4.00 / 1)
Then ACORN, AFL-CIO, Change to Win, Campaign for America's Future, Campaign for Community Change, Center for American Progress, Children's Defense Fund, CREDO Mobile, MoveOn, National Council of La Raza, the NEA, Progressive States Network, USAction, Brave New Films and Planned Parenthood all are not progressive groups and writers like Erza Klein, David Sirota, Paul Krugman and Matthew Yglesias are all not progressive.

But boy, President-elect Dennis Kucinich sure is popular!  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
There's your flaw (4.00 / 2)
You are defining progressivism as adherence to individuals and institutions when it is in fact adherence to a coherent ideology.

Your entire premise is in fact anti-ideological, which in practice is anti-progressive.


[ Parent ]
cap and trade (4.00 / 1)
A carbon tax is not a goal, in and of itself. If carbon dioxide didn't cause global warming, there would be no reason to put a price on carbon.

I certainly agree that the progressive position is that global warming is man-made, an environmental catastrophe, and must be addressed by a mechanism that reduces the carbon dioxide in our atmosphere to a level that scientists have determined will limit the worse effects of climate change. To specify that a certain policy approach to achieving this is the only one that can be called progressive is silly, especially given that there is plenty of debate within the environmental community as to which approach is actually better.


[ Parent ]
HCAN's plan is NOT progressive (4.00 / 1)
By definition. The Rockridge Institute had a very important report on "the logic of the health care debate" titled Don't Think of a Sick Child. Folks ought to read that before defining up as down, or defining a fundamentally neoliberal policy (mandated purchase of health insurance) as something progressive.

You can't redefine terminologies when it suits your purposes.


[ Parent ]
Nice start but too specific (4.00 / 1)
1. Single-payer healthcare.
2. Reducing the military budget.
3. Ending the death penalty.
4. Opposition to free trade.
5. A carbon tax.

You can't simultaneously claim progressivism is the same as pragmatism (as Paul, at least, claims) and also make the list this narrowly specific.

For example, Ezra Klien has claimed France seems to have the best health care system but it isn't technically single payer.  As others have pointed out, a carbon tax is just one way to go among similar options and not necessarily the best.

And then there is the whole theory of change issue.  Is incrementalism by definition anti progressive or is it just making sure the good isn't destroyed by the perfect?  Depends on the details and motivations of the individual, doesn't it.


[ Parent ]
Obama didn't run on a single one of these (0.00 / 0)
So I don't understand why Chammy is complaining, he or she never could have thought Obama (or any other major candidate in the primaries) was a progressive.



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
I know (0.00 / 0)
I'll quote myself from above:

I'm under no illusion as to Obama's policy positions and I agree that his advisors and appointees largely share his views. It is very important, however, for the sake of intellectual honesty, and for the sanity of us all, that we don't describe these as progressive positions. Because they are not.


[ Parent ]
i'm sympathetic to your issue list, but progressivism isn't an issue list (4.00 / 5)
neither is conservatism.

Conservatives may disagree about how to deal with abortion: make it a state issue, erode it, abolish it entirely -- but they're the party of "traditional values".

We can start to translate your issues into principles:

1. Health care is a right, not a privilege.
2. Diplomacy and statecraft. Unilateral military force as a last resort.
3. Crime prevention through economic opportunity.
4. Worker-friendly and environmentally-friendly trade.
5. Carbon neutrality as soon as possible.

Take #1. Obama campaigned on affordable health insurance, with mandates to cover kids. Edwards demanded mandates. Everyone wants single payer, but have different strategies for getting there. Despite differences on the issues, we're all progressives.

... anyway, kind of off topic. But a litmus test is a bad idea. Really, we need to look at broad principles, and see who has a record of siding with progressives, or who has a record of favoring corporate lobbyists, or Republican-lite.


[ Parent ]
This is much better. (4.00 / 1)
I could maybe quibble with #2, because I really do think the military budget is way too big, but overall this is more ends than means oriented, which I like.

[ Parent ]
as i wrote that, i thought to myself... "you know, #2 is actually a pretty good principle by itself" (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
"Opposition to free trade"? (0.00 / 0)
Frankly, this is a know-nothing position. I can see opposing specific trade agreements as they are proposed, or demanding that workers negatively affected by trade receive some kind of compensation or assistance, but saying that you're against trade is nonsensical. Trade is mostly a good thing.

For example, I oppose CAFTA. But the potential impact of CAFTA on American workers is minuscule; Colombia is a tiny country. However, I oppose the agreement because Colombia seems to have a history of looking the other way when labor leaders are killed. I think we can say to a country like Colombia, "Until you protect the rights of your workers to organize, we will limit your access to our markets." In the short run, we will be hurting ourselves (slightly), by not getting cheaper goods from Colombia. But in the long run hopefully Colombia will see the light, the lots of their workers will improve, they'll get higher wages, we'll open our markets, and our workers and theirs will benefit.

Furthermore, the trade agreements that have been made over the past two decades have been highly flawed, but one thing they have not been is "free trade." You don't need 2000-page agreements to get free trade; those agreements are adjustments in the degree to which various industries get protection.

Paraphrasing our President-elect, I'm not against all trade agreements; I'm against dumb trade agreements.


[ Parent ]
Depends on what the definition of "is" is. (0.00 / 0)
Maybe what he/she calls 'free trade' is exactly the type of agreements you oppose and what he/she calls 'fair trade' is exactly the type of agreements you support.

After all, the deals that have been promulgated in the last 16 years have all been promoted as "free trade", right?


[ Parent ]
That's a fair point (0.00 / 0)
It could be. Still, I think people on the left should realize that to someone like me, who is admittedly to the right of many here on economic issues, the demonization of trade looks similar to the way the loony right treats global warming. It's no longer based on normative issues but actively denying reality and science. To the extent that people want to argue normative issues regarding the effects of trade, I'm OK, but I get the sense that many OpenLeft posters are just flatly (or at least reflexively) opposed to trade, and that seems weird to me.

[ Parent ]
Well I'd tend to disagree with that assumption (4.00 / 1)
my own opinion is that many OpenLeft posters are reflexively opposed to how current or currently proposed trade agreements are drawn up; i.e. always with loopholes for corporations so they don't have to actually worry about ILO or environmental standards. As evidence of this, when was the last time you heard corporate America bemoan a trade agreement that was introduced in Congress? Wouldn't that say something about the effectiveness of the labor and environmental standards? Because otherwise, what's the point of having the agreement (in corporate america's eyes) in the first place if it isn't to reduce labor and regulatory costs? Yes, there's comparative advantage and all that, but in all these agreements, I fail to see for instance, what comparative advantage China has to manufacture dog food half a world away with American and Canadian raw food stuffs other than poverty-level wages and no governmental oversight of practices and procedures.  

[ Parent ]
so you're saying that (4.00 / 1)
Clinton, Napolitano, and Richardson don't affiliate with some left wing groups either? Centrist by association huh? right...

New Democrats (4.00 / 3)
To ensure that liberals don't slip through the cracks, ...

No.  They're not liberals.  That's an explicit criteria of the group.


[ Parent ]
that was (0.00 / 0)
the gloss some dumb writer put on it. its not in their chater or something.

[ Parent ]
Eric Holder (4.00 / 9)
was one of the key figures in the founding of the American Constitutional Society, the progressive alternative to the Federalist Society. He's served on their board and helped provide them the funding and direction to get started. I would consider him a progressive if not a totally pure one (who is?)

On healthcare (his policy area) Tom Daschle is most certainly progressive unless a progressive must be a hardcore single-payer advocate. So I would move down the "liberals/progressives" with the exception of Daschle and Holder.

But understand this is not all the cabinent picks and most of the power in modern White House's belong to the White House staff which includes many progressives.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


Congrats (4.00 / 2)
for making the most substantive comment in this post

[ Parent ]
As I said, the jury is out (4.00 / 1)
That is certainly a very good point about Holder, and a big positive in his direction. However, it isn't all clear. He has spoken out against the way the Patriot Act has been implemented, but he also fought for its renewal.

I think it is possible that Holder is a progressive, as I admit in the article, but that it is also possible he is not. I'm pretty open minded on Holder.

But if Holder is the big progressive champion in the cabinet so far--and I think he probably is the most progressive cabinet member appointed so far--then it speaks to the relative rarity of progressive appointments in the administration to this point.


[ Parent ]
The jury is out on Matt Stoller? (4.00 / 2)
As I understand, Matt originally supported the invasion of Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong. It's also my understanding that he helped start Draft Clark (Clark has ties to the DLC) and worked for Simon Rosenberg's DNC Chair campaign who runs the New Democratic Network that you mentioned above.

He also has done a lot to build the online progressive movement and I would consider him a progressive.

This is not to attack Matt, just to point out even progressives have mixed records. Paul Wellstone voted for DOMA and the Patriot Act, should the jury be out on him? Feingold voted for Roberts and Ashcroft, does that mean he's not progressive?

No one is perfect, Eric Holder included. Pretty much anyone included. Name me pretty much any public figgure who's considered progressive and I'll name you something unprogressive they did.

Overall though Matt Stoller, Paul Wellstone, Russ Feingold and Eric Holder all are progressives in my book beacuse on the whole they have progressive records and have either lead on progressive issues or have helped build progressive infrastructure.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
I think Bowers .. (0.00 / 0)
is talking about overall .. not one specific issue .. no one is perfect .. not even Feingold .. or Bernie Sanders .. or Dennis

[ Parent ]
Chris, you are actually contradicting your own statements from the past (4.00 / 3)
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005...

Hillary Hatred On the Left

When I was younger I bought into a lot of Noise Machine lies about Democrats, even though I still voted for them. I think this goes for a lot of other Democrats as well. In particular, I am thinking of Hillary Clinton hatred among the netroots.

Here you call some of the "themes" established about Clinton part of "Noise machine lies about Democrats."

Then you go on to passionately make a case for Hillary based on her voting record and Progressive Punch ranking:

While I never liked the way in which Clinton's trade and other policies worked against labor and working people, Hillary's voting record is very progressive.

Note that you don't argue that sites like Progressive Punch are worthless or poor indicators, instead you claimed (at the time) that "Hillary's voting record is VERY progressive" matter of factly.

Then you go on to flesh the veracity of the rankings out:


In fact, she ranks eighth among all Senators according to Progressive Punch, including 1st among "Health Care," "Housing" and "Corporate Subsidies." She ranks second on "Government Checks on Corporate Power," and third on "Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad." She is tied for eighth on "Labor Rights."

What follows is your personal valuation of that voting record:


This is not the voting record of a corporate tool--it is the voting record of one of the greatest opponents of corporate power we have.

This bears repeating:  You claimed  that the record shows H. Clinton to be the opposite of 'a corporate tool,' indeed "one of the greatest opponents of corporate power we have.

You go on to specify that her war vote/record is the one chink in the "progressive" armor, here:


The only area where she clearly strikes out on being a progressive is "War and Peace," which admittedly is a top issue for many these days.

Yet, it did not deter you from drawing an overall picture of a strong progressive:


In her overall rankings, she is ranked as more progressive than liberal icons such as Frank Lautenberg, Tom Harkin, Charles Schumer, Patty Murray, Patrick Leahy, Barbara Milkulski, and, yes, Russ Feingold, who actually ranks behind everyone listed here.

Further down the diary you go on to list what you call some of the right-wing lies about H. Clinton that the netroots have swallowed too easily, and ask the reader to stop swallowing them:


So to summarize, I'd like it if we stopped swallowing right wing lies about Hillary Clinton, including:
Everyone hates her.

She is unelectable.

Republicans want her to run; Democrats don't.

She is not a progressive.

People did not like the Clinton years

Note that in the above segment you clearly consider the statement "She [Hillary] is not a progressive" to be nothing but a right-wing lie worthy of scorn and rebuke.  

You underscore the strong rebuke once more at the end of the paragraph:

However, that does not mean that I can stomach it when the netroots swallows Limbaugh-esque lies about her. It has to stop. I for one refuse to carry water on behalf of the Noise Machine.

Let's be clear here.  When you wrote the diary you strongly objected to anyone claiming that H. Clinton is "not a progressive," went as far as calling it a Limbaugh-esque lie.  

The points in that diary were made with clarity and logic, and the justification of your argument was the Progressive Punch rankings, which you used front and center to make your "Hillary is a strong progressive" argument at the time.  Why then is it now invalid to use the same ranking sites - I expanded it to include rankings from Progressive Punch, Govtrack and ADA - for any of the other appointees?    


why is it invalid? (4.00 / 4)
It's invalid because now that Democrats are in power, we must now have something to complain about. Our new complaint is that the people we once liked, are no longer likable because they are now "centrist". They are centrist because they attend meetings at centrist organizations, even though I'm sure they are affiliated with left wing groups too...

[ Parent ]
please (4.00 / 4)
It's invalid because now that Democrats are in power, we must now have something to complain about.

As someone who disagrees with just about everything you've written on this subject, I want to assure you that this is not what motivates me, and I'm sure it isn't what motivates anyone else here. Please take my word for it.

It's a shame that you believe that people who care enough about where this country is going to participate in a discussion for several days are motivated by nothing more than a desire to complain.

Perhaps we have failed to express ourselves in a way that clarifies our reasoning to you.  If so, that's a shame too.

Nevertheless, will you please take my word for it?  A desire to complain is not what motivates us, and I'd like you to stop saying it is.


[ Parent ]
That post is four years old (4.00 / 10)
I wrote that post four years ago, and at the time I was not aware either of her senior leadership position at the DLC, or her role in founding Third Way. In fact, you can see my evolving understanding of the ideological caucuses in the Democratic Party in a different post I wrote three months after that one.

Further, Clinton has dropped percipitously in the Progressive Punch rankings since that time. Last year, she ranked 30th, and 31st overall. That is a big drop from where she was four years ago.

Finally, since you are key on using my own words, note this passage from the article you linked:

The only area where she clearly strikes out on being a progressive is "War and Peace," which admittedly is a top issue for many these days.

Given that this is the same area of policy that she will be covering as Secretary of State, there is no contradiction here at all. Five years ago, I said she voted like a progressive overall, but not on foreign policy. In this post, I say that she is not a progressive on foreign policy. It's the same thing. Plus, she holds leadership roles in centrist groups I was unaware of at the time (I was unaware of her roles, not the groups).


[ Parent ]
At the time you strongly objected to anyone claiming (0.00 / 0)
H. Clinton was not a progressive for the stated reasons.  I think you were exactly right, because too many in the netroots had bought into the right-wing lies, the noise machine, as you call it.  

At the time you argued that Hillary Clinton is a strong progressive, and it was a rather strong endorsement to call her "one of the greatest opponents of corporate power we have."   Are you saying that you were dead wrong with that diary?  I disagree.  

Now you claim that on foreign policy she is more of a centrist, an assertion I don't disagree with, fair enough.  But if you pick single issues like that rather than overall ideological record then you can't make it so easy on yourself and issue blanket ideological blanket judgments for the others.  For instance, Daschle is clearly a progressive when it comes to health care, which by your definition therefore makes Daschle a defacto progressive, given the cabinet post he is nominated for.  

Five years ago, I said she voted like a progressive overall, but not on foreign policy.

No, less than 4 years ago you said she has a VERY progressive record and is "one of the greatest opponents of corporate power we have," and you considered "She is not a progressive" to be a Limbuagh-esque right-wing lie.    

If you talk rankings, Clinton's PP ranking is 16 slots higher than Obama's.  His comments on foreign politics during the campaign can be considered to the right of Clinton by some (i.e. comments about smoking out Al-Quaida and Bin Ladin by crossing into Pakistan, if need be.)  His health care proposals were not universal, while Edwards' and Hillary's were.  It becomes a circular discussion when it can be conceivably argued that in some way the cabinet appointments might pull Obama to the left of his own statements in some instances.  Daschle might make universal health care a possibility, something Obama did not even campaign on, Hillary might promote a more careful, measured, approach towards Pakistan.  

Overall the voting record and governance record of those listed is considered "liberal" aka "progressive."  It is easy to see, as it is unison on any ranking site available.  If you ignore actual voting records and just go with personal quotas or litmus tests, you essentially invalidate ideological labels.  At the very least you pick and choose whether to categorize a pol in one ideological corner with uneven hand, as sometimes you pick a certain voting area for proof, at other times it is the overall record.    The other unfortunate effect this overreaction has is that you are doing the bidding for those media outlets who claim that this is still a right-of-center country.  That is done by bloggers moving the goal posts to the right again, claiming that lifelong liberals are really centrists, thereby validating those claims.      


[ Parent ]
Has your view of the DLC changed that much? (0.00 / 0)
In the DLC section of the serious of articles he linked to above Bowers wrote:

this study has revealed to me that the DLC is hyper-disorganized and does not seem to have either a clear policy thread or a noticeable amount of influence among its membership.

That would seem to weaken the thrust of the current article (that DLC membership = "not progressive").  Has your understanding of the DLC changed significantly since then (or perhaps the DLC itself has changed)?


[ Parent ]
it's a progressive voting record because it opposed Bush. (4.00 / 3)
But it takes more than opposing Bush to make progress. Many of the troubling trends in this country started long before Bush, and continued right through the 1990s until now.

[ Parent ]
I do think there is a contradiction (0.00 / 0)
 Why the sea-change on Clinton.

While it is true he did say that Clinton was less progressive on foreign policy, that did not seem to be as much of a problem back then. As President she obviously would be overseeing foreign policy.

So, is she a progressive or not? If she isn't now, what has changed since the original diary?  


What contradiction? (4.00 / 1)
Are you even reading these posts? I wrote then:

The only area where she clearly strikes out on being a progressive is "War and Peace," which admittedly is a top issue for many these days.

I wrote now:

It should be noted that Tom Daschle might (I re-emphasize might) be in the opposite situation as Hillary Clinton, in that he will be overseeing a policy area where he actually is progressive, even though his overall record is not.

Given that you are arguing I am criticizing Obama too harshly, I would at least hope that you are willing to reserve harsh judgment from me. But it doesn't seem that way at all.


[ Parent ]
So, the standard to which you will judge Obama (4.00 / 1)
 Is not his record, nor even the record of those around him, but rather whether or members of his cabinet have ever belonged to a Democratic organization you dont like?

 


this isn't a judgment on his presidency. it's a warning sign for progressives. (4.00 / 5)


[ Parent ]
At the moment (4.00 / 4)
This is the information we have.

And it's not good.

I suppose we could all just go shopping instead though. ;)

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You (4.00 / 1)
Especially for the rundown on HRC and Emmanuel.  The "Rahm is totally a leftist" meme has been festering on both sides of the 'sphere for days now and I'm glad someone finally called b.s. and pointed out how slimy the DLC mob really is.

Also, on HRC, let's never ever forget "obliterate Iran".  Never.  


well apparently (0.00 / 0)
Obama forgot it.

[ Parent ]
Just like Bill Clinton (4.00 / 12)
All of this "progressive vs. centrist" talk reminds me of when Bill Clinton was elected in 1992. After twelve years of Reagan and Bush, Sr., people were overjoyed when Clinton--the man from hope, who, as a boy, had shaken JFK's hand--was elected president. Too many, it felt that we were finally out of the conservative wilderness, and a new progressive era had been launched. And then I watched people spend the next eight years twisting themselves into pretzels to show how Clinton's pro-business, centrist policies where somehow progressive. It is only now, eight years after the end of his presidency, that we are able to see Clinton in a more realistic light.

Having lived through the Clinton years, I refuse to be fooled by Obama, he seems to me a centrist in progressive clothing. I am a progressive, and I want progressive policies enacted, and I will do whatever I can in my small way to make sure they are enacted. I will not roll over and blindly support obviously centrist cabinet selections. As a matter of fact, I do not even understand why people are upset about the centrist complaints against Obama. After watching Bush for the past eight years, haven't we learned how important it is to constantly monitor and pressure politicians? It is almost like people feel that Obama is their friend, and that by criticizing him, we are hurting his feelings. Well, Obama is not our friend--he has made it clear he does not care what the netroots think--he is a politician, and I do not believe in leaving him alone and hoping that he will do the right thing.  


And by the way (0.00 / 0)
 The idea that belonging to an organization is the surest sign of ideological purety is a stretch.

Politicians join groups for all kinds of reasons, including political calculation.  


So what does the 'progress' (0.00 / 0)
in 'progressive' mean to you? And do you identify yourself as a 'progressive'?

[ Parent ]
Yes I do (0.00 / 0)
 And yes I believe Obama is as well.

 


[ Parent ]
And what is a progressive to you? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
"Someone who supports Obama." (4.00 / 3)
Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Carry on.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
John Edwards was one of the founders of the New Democrats (4.00 / 1)
and he voted for the war resolution, had a much more centrist record while in the Senate than either Clinton or Daschle.   It was argued by his supporters, who all claim to be strong progressives, that he had to vote centrist, even conservative, to keep in line with the conservative state he is from.  

Yet, I seriously doubt that if he were selected for a cabinet post it would be argued  that he is a centrist, even though that would be the conclusion one would have to arrive at by reading the argumentation here.  


Edwards "came to Jesus." (4.00 / 2)
He renounced his war vote, and ran an unapologetically populist campaign.

When and where did any of the people we are talking about exhibit any public change of heart?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Whenever someone (0.00 / 0)
talks about renunciations of that vote I always have to ask what it was spefically about that vote they were renouncing.

Did he admit to making a political calculation that was motivated by ambition, putting his political career before what the thought was best for the country?

Is that how he renounced his vote?


[ Parent ]
I'm just saying (4.00 / 1)
none of the so-called secret progressives in Obama's cabinet ever renounced any of their mistakes. Was Edwards sincere? Who knows?

But you have to admit it's a hell of a stretch to ask me to believe that the secret progressives have all quietly learned their lessons, and changed their ways, and that none of them will ever backslide again.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I think he was sincere (0.00 / 0)
I just pay attention to what people say they're apologizing for.

[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
politicans don't go around 'renouncing' things they've done in the past, unless they know its going to be something people are going to call them on. If they make mistakes, they just pretend they didn't happen and hope noone ever brings it up.

[ Parent ]
One of the habits I got into (0.00 / 0)
When I first heard about the netroots' pathological hatred of the DLC was, whenever I heard someone say something about where the DLC stood on an issue, I would invariably go check their website and find out they did not have that position on the issue.

Case in point was Bush's tax cuts.  Everyone on the internet will tell you the DLC is in favor of Bush's tax cuts.  And in 2000 when there was a budget surplus, that might have been correct.  But they have been calling for the repeal of the bush tax cuts for 6 years now.

And that's just the fact.  No narrative repeated over and over again by wannabe consultants is going to change that fact.

Most of this is about marketing strategies.  Some of which I agree with.

I'll add this to the discussion.  the DLC endorsed voting "Yes" on FISA.  Given that we know who voted for it and who did not, we now know what we can do with the Guilt by Membership/Association argument articulated above.

Ignore it.


This is the dynamic (4.00 / 6)
That will define the blogs over the next two years.

Commenters like devilrays and Seth who refuse to accept any criticism of Obama as legitimate, and folks like Chris who actually want progressive change even if that means criticizing Obama to get it. Everyone else is on one side or the other, though their closeness to the dividing line may vary.

That's what all this is about. Way too many people in the netroots have identified themselves primarily as Obama supporters and not progressives. Witness some of the attempts above to redefine what "progressivism" is.

I do not, for the life of me, understand the resistance to criticism of Obama. It defies reason.


You are wrong. I am far from an Obamaphyle (4.00 / 2)
I did not support him in the primaries, and his overall posture was a bit too close to the center for me. Of course I supported him with money and vote once in the general.

Obama is probably going to make a lot of mistakes.  I have never advocated waiting until he is president before criticizing him.  The only thing I was objecting to was the classification advanced that every single member of the cabinet is either centrist or Republican.  That is wrong on both scores.  Gates is technically not a Republican, we don't know the political affiliation of James.  But, more importantly, the cabinet members listed at the top of this thread are classified as liberals, not moderates, by every single ranking site known to us.   It should be allowed to disagree with the "common wisdom" meme when we have evidence to support disagreement.  Otherwise you are just advocating for an echo chamber with narrow beliefs that are to be adhered to, or else.  


[ Parent ]
I still feel like there is a real problem here with definitions (4.00 / 2)
Progressive is such an amorphous term to so many people that depending on your ideological predilictions, you can label just about whomever you want a "progressive". That's both it's strength and weakness as an alternative self-identifying term to replace the dreaded "liberal". Everyone wants to be "progressive" because the opposite is "regressive". One poll I would really like dailyKos to commission is how many people self-identify as that. I bet it would rival or even overtake "conservative", which is the last wobbly leg that conservatives have to stand on to argue that this is a "center-right" nation.

Conservative also tends to have more positive connotations in our society because it evokes feelings of thoughtfulness, due diligence, and caution (incidentally, attributes often related to Obama). Liberal on the other hand, too often in our society means "excess" or "too much". So progressive is a good alternative, but then there's the problem of what exactly do people mean by the term. Is it really a set of narrow beliefs? Does the available voting record over the last 8 years when basically zero 'progressive' (however you define it) legislation could be voted on, really give a good indication of how 'progressive' someone is?

Just one more example of how amorphous this term is...one of Sarah Palin's favorite phrases was how we're going to "progress" the country. Shows the potential power of that word when even she was using it, sometimes more-so than the word "conservative".  


[ Parent ]
I suppose everyone has their own definition of 'progressive' (0.00 / 0)
In contrast to other ideological groups I believe a liberal/progressive adheres to a majority of the following values:

1. Strong belief in distribution of wealth from the bottom up.  The major difference between progressives and conservatives - the belief that if you give more wealth and opportunity to those at the bottom it will then also trickle up to the "owners" of wealth.  Everybody wins.   That brings with it a much more progressive tax distribution and an expansion of the Earned Income Tax credit as well as increased investments in public education.  Referred to as 'socialism' by detractors.  

2. Equality for all.  No income disparity based on gender. Support for equal treatment regardless of sexual orientation, which includes support for gay marriage.

3.  Health care is a right.  Everybody should have access to universal health care, be it via a single payer system or another universal system, such as the French health care system.

4. A woman's right to choose, unequivocally.

5. Government can and will (if done efficiently) always beat market based solutions in matters of public welfare.  It should not be less government, but smart government.  The people benefit exponentially.  

6. A "cradle to grave" security net encompassing paid maternity leave, health care for all, full unemployment benefits, as it is common in almost all industrialized nations aside from the US, is not welfare but infinitely smart.  It furthers the populace's sense of well being, puts a premium on prevention, and thereby makes for a healthier, happier and more balanced society.

7. Labor issues.  Strengthening of labor unions to have equal weight at the negotiation table.    Everybody should be entitled to a living wage. Minimum wage should be set to allow for a life outside of poverty, and then automatically adjusted to keep pace with inflation.

8. A clean environment benefits all. We can't sustain the planet with current levels of pollution.  We need to pass carbon emissions legislation that puts teeth back into environmental protection.  Related here is increased research into and implementation of alternative energy sources.  

9. As it relates to foreign policy, human rights should always be the guiding principle.  We should fight against poverty, oppression, exploitation.  Cooperation with other nations via the UN is tantamount to bring about a world with minimized strife and enhanced equality.

Those are my personal defining progressive values, my raison d'etre. There are more, but those values came to me first, which means they are, to me, probably the most important distinguishing morals that cause me to identify myself as a progressive.  

I don't see much justification to support the notion that at least some of the individuals discussed in this thread as to their "progressive" vs. "centrist" leanings do not also adhere overall to a similarly progressive value system and understanding of government, at least in the majority of cases, as I have defined for myself.


[ Parent ]
Well those are a good group of issue statements and beliefs (0.00 / 0)
but I would also challenge your assertion that the cabinet picks adhere to the same set of beliefs. Probably won't here Napolitano support for instance a "cradle to grave" welfare system.

And I think that's probably where this whole argument originates from. We're each ascribing more or less to the people in question than what the public record allows us to know for sure. Oh well. Not much we can do about his cabinet picks, whether we really like them or not. It's his decision, and rightly so. But what we can do is lobby for legislation and policies that we favor with the team he has. I just mentioned as an idea attaching the card check bill to the stimulus package. Seems like a great way to beat a republican filibuster on it if it were a stand-along bill. I think that sort of thing is a better use of our time than these arguments.


[ Parent ]
Well, I think anyone who believes in a majority of the (0.00 / 0)
values that can be considered "progressive" should be allowed to call himself or herself such without derision.  I think that Obama himself is in there, as are most of the cabinetsters mentioned.  Pragmatism allows at times only for a more incremental approach rather than full throated yelling from the roof tops, as would be the case for Napolitano in governing her Republican state of Arizona with a mostly progressive thrust, albeit in small steps due to the necessity of having to deal with Republican legislatures.

Anyway, the idea you bring up is a good one.  Attaching card check to another bill which would be hard to filibuster may be what is needed.  A straight-line vote is iffy, given that a few Democrats may even join a Republican filibuster in the Senate.


[ Parent ]
Also, the redefining of what progressivism is comes entirely (0.00 / 0)
from one side.  Note that C. Bowers himself considered H. Clinton very progressive a few years ago and took exception to anyone who would claim that she is not a progressive.  He called her "one of the greatest opponents of corporate power we have" (can't get much more progressive than that.)Obviously, something changed, a redefinition of what "progressive means", if you will.  Perhaps your definition of "progressive" simply varies from what others understand it to be.  At that point it becomes highly subjective and can lead to such a narrow litmus test as to basically disqualify everyone but a select handful.  

[ Parent ]
Holy jumping to conclusions, Batman! (4.00 / 1)
Commenters like devilrays and Seth who refuse to accept any criticism of Obama as legitimate ...
It's possible that such commenters don't accept this criticism of Obama, but are amenable to other critiques.  No?

[ Parent ]
This is why I LOVE open left.... (4.00 / 1)
It's like one big, smart, progressive bar brawl.
Beautiful.  

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

Progressive Center (0.00 / 0)
There was a time not so long ago that if someone spoke about the importance of recycling and alternative energy and eating organic foods and preserving the environment and the humane treatment of animals and natural childbirth and protecting the dolphins and any number of other issues, one could expect to be labeled a tree-hugger or a hippie or (gulp) a liberal.

But look at the world we live in today. We have industries devoted to recycled paper. Energy-efficient light bulbs and chemical-free cleaning products are easily available. We have dolphin-friendly tuna and natural childbirth is casually offered in our hospitals. We've seen "An Inconvenient Truth" winning an Oscar, and billionaire oilman T. Boone Pickens demanding that we must get off our addiction to oil. National health-care is seen as a need by even some on the right, and the threat of global warming has become accepted as a reality by even those who made a living of arguing against it.

Many ideas that were once vilified as "liberal" are now casually accepted as mainstream. Many progressive ideas are no longer solely offered by those on the far-left of the Democratic party, rather moderates on both sides of the aisle are seeing the light and coming to adopt them as well. Progressive ideas are no longer portrayed as a leftist manifesto, thus conservative democrats no longer fear the same policies they once ran away from. Many of those same progressive ideas now occupy the Democratic Party platform.


It's the Overton window at work (0.00 / 0)
That's why it's important for progressives NOT to sell out.  By pushing hard to the left, you actually make compromise positions seem moderate / conservative.  The right has done this for years.  It's an idea that's known as the Overton Window.

[ Parent ]
There are no progressives in this cabinet (0.00 / 0)
Basically, progressives have been locked out.  By the way, the environment on Obama's campaign blog is downright hostile towards progressives.  I got so tired of it that I removed my userid from the site.  It's clear to me that progressives are being dumped on.  If there is no real change from Obama's administration, it's the last time I'll expend any of my time on helping Democratic candidates get elected.

Fantastic Anaysis, Chris! (0.00 / 0)
I agree with every word!  I voted for Obama with the belief that he would be your typical centrist Democrat in the Bill Clinton mold. I truly hope I'm wrong, but I don't expect much more than very cautious and incremental change when it comes to fundamental issues like universal health care, global warming  or withdrawing from Iraq.

I'm very unhappy with an Attorney General who has represented Chiquita Bananas, which has such a sordid past! Nor am I happy with Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State. She's never held a diplomatic post in her life! Lawrence Summers is another very bad choice! He's behaved  more than once as an idiot in public. Of all the eminent economists in the United States, why did Obama have to pick such a Clinton retread?

I couldn't agree more with what my mechanic said to me today while changing my oil, "I thought Obama was all about change. Why is he choosing so many Clinton people for his cabinet?"

May Obama decide otherwise when it comes to EPA, Interior, Education and Energy! One can only hope!

Give a DINO more than a bone!


Donate to Open Left









QUICK HITS

Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.


blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search