Raising the Bar: Praising Obama Is Fine For Starters, But Not Being Bush Is Just The Beginning

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 16:30


From the DKos Abbreviated Pundit Round-Up:

Bob Herbert is thrilled that we will finally have a president who "gets it" when it comes to job creation:
    The idea that the nation had all but stopped investing in its infrastructure, and that officials in Washington have ignored the crucial role of job creation as the cornerstone of a thriving economy is beyond mind-boggling. It's impossible to understand.

    Impossible, that is, until you realize that bandits don't waste time repairing a building that they're looting.

This nails it exactly, I think.  After all, it wasn't Markos, or Chris, or Matt, or David, or even me who called the Bush Administration budgets "a kind of looting."  It was Nobel Prize-winning economist George Akerlof.  But, by the same token, getting this basic fact and pledging up front to take significant action on it does not equate to being a progressive.  Heck, there was a time when someone might have cited this as evidence of being a proud, far-sighted, but sober-minded American conservative.

More importantly, perhaps, given how confused folks have gotten about labels lately, this pledge is not enough to make sense economically, in terms of basic economic justice. Which is why we need to raise the bar in terms of what we should expect from Obama.  Without more details, this could be just be a different--albeit much more responsible--way to make wealthy Americans even wealthier, using taxpayer money.  This was explained by economic analyst and historian Michael Hudson explained on Democracy Now! this morning, as part of a powerhouse interview also including Robert Kuttner and Naomi Klein.  As Hudson explained, multi-billion dollar infrastructure investments routinely increase nearby property values by considerably more than the cost of such public investments:

Paul Rosenberg :: Raising the Bar: Praising Obama Is Fine For Starters, But Not Being Bush Is Just The Beginning
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Hudson, at least when he is talking about infrastructure, is he talking about mass transportation?

MICHAEL HUDSON: Largely that.

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, as opposed to highways and roads, and actually mass transit?

MICHAEL HUDSON: That is certainly the key. Mass-transit and almost every country creates an increase in real estate values along the routes that could actually rental that is increased by this could actually finance the entire transport system. In London when they built the tube extension to their financial district of the loop, they created 13 billion pounds worth of increased in real estate value. The tube itself cost only $8 billion. They left this $13 billion real estate value in the hands of the private landlords. Same thing in Chicago in the US. It can be a very heavy investment in mass transportation here. This is going to create enormous real-estate values. The tax system, leaves these in private hands. I think all of the tax proposals that Mr. Obama have spoken about, have to do with income tax primarily. The rich people prefer not to earn income. They prefer to make capital gains. So the intention of the economic gain that Mr. Obama brought in is really to create a huge capital gains economy. Even more disparity of wealth while leaving in place the one thing that should address in the last year and that is the enormous debt overhead. Nothing is happening on that. He is adding to debt, not reducing it.

Hudson has been an economic advisor to Dennis Kucinich, and he writes books with words like "imperialism" in their titles, so I don't expect Obama to name him as a top economic advisor.  But Hudson does have a point, and the fact that he makes it-while virtually no one else does-underscores something vital at the heart of the debate about the sorts of advisors Obama is appointing: without some who thinks about such things in the room, the idea of creating equity among the beneficiaries of large-scale investments will not even be raised in a rigorous fashion.

This is one very concrete reason why it matters whether or not you have progressives in the top ranks of Obama advisors.  There are very real, very pragmatic consequences to excluding people on the basis of "ideology."  Without such advocates for the economic interests of the broad mass of people, the vast majority of the benefits flowing from Obama's substantial infrastructure initiatives may be expected to flow to the already wealthy, much the same way that Bush's tax cuts primarily benefited that same group.

Of course, the infrastructure will be beneficial in and of itself.  But if tens of millions of people will not only pay for it with their taxes, and then pay for it again with higher rents, or costlier mortgages, while a relative handful of wealthy real estate investors, land speculators and the like pocket literally billions of dollars, then it should not be hard to see how this doesn't exactly qualify as government for the people, of the people and by the people.  Nor should it be hard to see why people might not keep voting Democratic in eternal gratitude for such an outcome.

This gets back to the great contradiction between the world's-eye-view and the Versailles view of things: In the Versailles view, progressives are "extremists" who are "beyond the pale," whose ideas will quickly lose Democrats all the power they've worked so hard to win.  In the real world, however, it's precisely the popular "extremist" views that progressives espouse which makes them more popular than "pragmatic" centrists, who differ relatively little from their Republican counterparts.

So which one is really pragmatic, after all?

Update/Recap:  What I'm saying, essentially, is that if you capture the externalized benefits, rather than letting wealthy speculators, investors and others pocket it for themselves, then large infrastructure projects can literally pay for themselves, leaving the construction profits, jobs and all the multpilier effects as pure gravy.  It is, in fact, the legendary non-existent free lunch made manifest.


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liberal shock doctrine (4.00 / 6)
Now is the time to start exerting pressure on Obama and Congress on what's going to be in that half-trillion-dollar stimulus bill that Obama will evidently be signing his first day in office. One thing I'd like to see is a real serious high-speed rail service, especially one connecting the midwest (Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh, at least) and the northeast. Let's count the benefits of such a plan:

1) It's construction would provide jobs - green jobs, no less! - in the hardest hit arreas of the Rust Belt, helping that region in the short to medium term.

2) It would help to economically integrate the midwest with the northeast, making it more desirable to do business with the region, as Mr. Yglesias points out, helping the region economically over the long term.

3) It would help in the fight against global warming.

4) It would help in the fight for energy independence.

5) It would help prepare the country to deal with a post-peak oil world.


Yes, liberal shock doctrine. (4.00 / 4)
We have to spend hindreds of billions to stimulate the economy.  We might as well build something that helps long term.  I think Obama may well do that, even though I'm disappointed by his choices for people so far.

It's a long struggle.  Obama is progress, if we organize a real Democratic Left now to pressure him.

EFCA and growing unions is key.

Better than Bush!!  :-)


[ Parent ]
Kerry-Specter High-Speed Rail for America Act of 2008 (0.00 / 0)
Just read this on Prairie State Blue: lots of links in this dKos post.


[ Parent ]
it's a start, but - (0.00 / 0)
Notice the funding numbers in the bill - it looks like they total less than $20 billion. Chump change! Think of what we could do with $200 billion!

[ Parent ]
In Illinois, Amtrak is seeking only millions... (0.00 / 0)
Enough money, about $100 million, was found for the St. Louis-to-Chicago route. By 2004, track was improved to handle trains at speeds of 110 mph. At the same time, four safety gates, instead of the usual two, were installed at 69 public road crossings. Private crossings received two gates.
This improvement stalled when the company couldn't find modern signals that worked to ensure safety. Installing signals to allow the higher speeds needs an additional $10-$12 million for the Chicago-Springfield portion, and the 2004 cost has now escalated to $125 million to fund the improvements on the Springfield to St. Louis segment. I'm sure the Midwest High Speed Rail Association would dearly love to have their pittance, thank you!

[ Parent ]
I want to see those projects (0.00 / 0)
built with UNION labor.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Also (4.00 / 1)
a high speed rail between Nashville and Atlanta. A wooden stake right through the heart of vampire conservatism.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Cool. (4.00 / 1)
I just read Kerry's proposal -- a line from Texas, through Atlanta, to Boston. Now that's a big fat wooden stake.

Throw in a line through Nashville to Chicago, maybe?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Hell (4.00 / 1)
ATL to JAX to Orlando. Feed tourism is a climate friendly manner.

[ Parent ]
A Simple Question (0.00 / 0)
What exactly is the difference between the management of financial institutions buying government policy via lobbyists, and the government buying the financial institutions, then allowing their management to serve as the government's management of its interest in the institutions?

Doesn't this same class of looters wind up owning the government under either scenario? (Plus or minus, more or less, and a slightly different dramatis personae granted at the outset to those inclined by instinct to shout NO the minute they hear such a blasphemy.)


You are right (4.00 / 4)
A "great" example is AIG.  We own 79% of the turkey now so the management now has access to a second and a third helping of government cash.  Whoa, big fella.  Put in people akin to bankruptcy trustees to get a handle on things.

One point about the railroads.  Conservatives always gripe about government building things instaead of "private industry."  It was government land grants to railroads that essentially built the railroads and government highways and interstates that built their competitor, the highway system.  We do better when we realize this than when we try to disguise the fact.


[ Parent ]
The Difference Is (0.00 / 0)
entirely outside the frame you've drawn.  In the present circumstnaces that difference isn't very much. But if you look at the environment of the 1930s, you can see how it could be enormous.

Heck, FDR appointing old man Kennedy to head the SEC was a classic case of the fox guarding the henhouse.  Only thing was, he really was Roosevelt's fox.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Exactly! (4.00 / 3)
Perhaps I've spent too much time surrounded by Glenn's coterie of Libertarian Lounge Lizards™, but yes, that's the answer I've been angling for. If events provide the President with a genuine mandate, even if never expressed explicitly in the details of policy debates; if the President is intelligent, charismatic, and above all, determined, perhaps the masters can be converted to servants. This is even more likely if the initial policy decisions are carried out faithfully, and are widely seen to work.

Still, Paul, I do sometimes think that we're playing roulette here, rather than chess. I've got no choice but to bet on Obama, but even if I did, I have to say that I think he may be prove even more capable than FDR. (Then again, FDR had Eleanor, peace be upon her.)

We really don't know how it's going to go, do we?


[ Parent ]
I Don't Trust Obama (4.00 / 4)
I don't trust anyone that high up.  They're too far removed for rational trust to apply, and I've got no faith at all in faith-based trust.

But I do think we have some leverage, which we're only just beginning to figure out how we might use.  For example, I think the withdrawal of Brennan was largely, though not exclusively our doing.  Without the blogosphere, the other forces couldn't have gotten it done.  With the blogosphere, the psychologists' letter today became the last straw. Obama could have resisted, but resisting longer meant there would be an increasing price to pay, and no real upside for it.

This is a first sign of what can done.  There will be others. And we will continue to learn.  Slowly at first, perhaps.  But this cycle, everything changed.    I think that the combo of a few expert blogs, a mass of larger blogs, Brave New Films, some savvy troops on the ground and some poking from Colbert can be enough to win a few battles, and start to catalyze a more organized effort.  Nothing is certain, of course.  But I can at least begin to sense how things might start moving forward.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 2)
One of the problems all along has been the systematic, and often successful attacks by the Republicans on all our traditional sources of organized pushback left over from the New Deal -- labor unions, universities, professional associations, non-conglomerate news organs, hell, even the Civil Service.

Many of us have certainly hoped that the Internet could give us back some of what we've lost. MoveOn and ActBlue were promising signs, and bloggers are even more portentious. It certainly would be nice if this Brennan thing turned out to be the first of many signs of a growing influence on policy makers.

But damn, there's such a long way yet to go. In its present form, for example, the Democratic Party in many parts of the country is still part of the problem, not part of the solution. (Which is sort of where I came in forty years ago, but what the hell.)

As Crumb put it, Keep on truckin'. You yourself drive a pretty mean eighteen-wheeler, if you don't mind my saying so.


[ Parent ]
Raising the bar (4.00 / 4)
I like that framing far better than the "oh no! Obama's doing everything wrong!" framing that seems to be prevalent.

Here's a story: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

In it the environmentalists apparently pushed their own opinions and agenda, rather than just endorsing Obama's.  They have an ask, they've made it, and presumably will lobby or organize around it.  This has nothing to do with personnel, and everything to do with pushing to get the agenda shaped the way you want it.

Seems appropriate.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




I've Been Chewing On This For Some Time (4.00 / 2)
and I think that there's something distinctly important about the fact that there's a definite, very well-established DC environmental community.  They are almost perfectly made for this moment, it seems to me.  Things that have other times been seen (rightly, for most part, I think) as weaknesses now can manifest as strengths.

This is not an excuse letting others off the hook.  It's more a sense of why they may be more effective as pace-setters.

The ACLU has a very well thought-out plan of recover, as it were.  But they don't have quite the range of powerful allies one can find in the DC environmental sector.  Still, these are two examples of folks who have things very well mapped out.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Really tiring (4.00 / 1)
This is just more of the same crap. People on the outside who don't know what Obama is going to do telling us with certainty what he's going to do. Bullshit.

Wake me up when we start discussing Obama's actual policies.


You're A Fucking Idiot (2.67 / 3)
QueenTiye gets it.  You don't.

You've just clearly demonstrated that nothing will satisfy you short of everyone totally agreeing with you.  So, really, no one has any reason to try.

The notion that we can't discuss prospective policies until they're sent to us in triplicate by registered mail has been debunked so thoroughly it makes my head hurt.  But you're just in Limbaugh love with it, so there's no point in anyone paying you any mind.

QT, on the other hand, is someone who has a very different take on things than I do, but I've told her several times that I think she makes an important contribution here.  I'm not saying that I feel I have to persuade her.  Or that she's going to persuade me.  But I have to listen to her, for one simple reason: she shows that she listens, too.  That's not the end of it, of course.  But that alone is enough.  It earns respect.  It establishes a foundation.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks for your kind words Paul (0.00 / 0)
and Semblance, I feel your pain.  

But I'm arguing from a different point.  A lot of folks on OpenLeft have gotten into what I consider a rut of going on and on about how Obama hasn't hired any progressives and yadayadayada.  I just wrote a diary arguing that that's doing more harm than good.

BUT - grassroots organizing is all about an outside in posture, and Obama comes from a grassroots organizing background.

I would argue that he EXPECTS various progressive activist movements to lobby from the outside, to gain a hearing and to influence policy - and I would further argue that everytime progressives move from that frame, instead of hand-wringing about what Obama appointments mean about his policy choices, they are acting in a way the President-Elect will appreciate and respect.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




[ Parent ]
who still doesn't get what? (0.00 / 0)
How does this sound: "You should do something actually constructive and productive instead of bitching and moaning about what bloggers post."

Let me see if I really understand you: everyone should fit into Obama's (your) frame of what he expects from outside petitioners, and he is (you are) sure that being concerned about his staff picks isn't in his frame?

Meanwhile, David's on TV knocking Norquist on his ass, Chris Bowers is on his way to Washington to meet with members of the transition team.

I just read your post.  

Wow.  Just...wow.

So the right is happy with Obama because liberal bloggers are labelling his staff picks as centrists?

Couldn't it be that they are happy with Obama BECAUSE his staff picks are people they like (which is what liberal bloggers have been warning about)?



[ Parent ]
Could be. (0.00 / 0)
But in fact, I don't think so.  I think they're making shtuff up.  I think they are framing a media narrative that allows them to stay viable when they've been completely discredited - now all of a sudden Obama is their pick.

And, no - everyone should do what their conscience dictates.  I'm sharing an opinion of what will actually work.

Chris going to Washington is great. I take note of what he did in his post.  He thought about it - and came up with an ask.  (Isn't that what I said?)  David I only agree with about half of the time, so I can't comment too much on that.   For the record, Norquist seems to be an idiot, so if anyone knocked him down, good. :)

I'm being a little flippant, because I honestly don't understand the hostility.

If it helps some to explain my position, I'm very much on board for cooperating with the Obama administration in transforming the way we interact with government and the way government is done.  I have been an Obama supporter all along (unlike some here who supported Obama only when he became the best last standing), so my perspective is obviously different.  A lot of people on the left favored other candidates, and now want to pull Obama more to the left now that he's been elected.  I don't want to pull him more to the left.  I've been happy with him and his decisions about 90% of the time.  BUT - in sympathy with the goals of this community as they seem to me, I'm offering a perspective - I think that the framing of "raising the bar" is more useful than labelling people who really are liberal or at least center left as otherwise, just because they aren't where you want them to be.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




[ Parent ]
OK. We do have different perspectives (0.00 / 0)
I can respect that you like Obama AND the team he's putting together. But I'm one of those people who see Obama as better than McCain and also as a possible obstacle to what I think this country needs (like reviving the constitution).

Still, I don't approve of the argument that people who are warning about a danger are responsible for it. It reminds me of many a right-wing pundit who said that those of us who said Iraq would be a quagmire were hurting our troops.


[ Parent ]
Let me see if I've got this straight (0.00 / 0)
Maybe I'm just not a progressive. This is what I've been struggling with. Let me try to honestly set down my beliefs.

I'm for gay marriage. I'm an atheist who favors the separation between church and state and protecting the scientific method and a woman's right to choose. I believe that national defense is necessary, that every once in a while there's a fight that needs to be fought but that generally our interests are best served through restraint, cooperation, and diplomacy. And I believe that capitalism is at once extremely messy and necessary. I believe that a market works best when it is transparently and regulated as much as is necessary and no more. I'm no libertarian, however. The regulation needed to, say, reduce corruption to manageable areas is pretty significant.

I believe that creating 2.5 million jobs, many of which will be in alternative energy, is both a necessary short and medium-term form of economic recovery and a long-term path to getting our economy on track. I believe that everyone should have access to the health care system -- in the same way that everyone has access to legal care. If they choose to opt out for financial reasons, so be it. I believe, like Obama, that getting out of Iraq is a damn tricky business and it's okay to do it slowly but surely. I believe that trade is generally a good thing but not everyone benefits. These national benefits from trade should be used to benefit those individuals harmed. I am opposed to protectionism. I support the right to unionize.

I believe that Obama's inclinations are generally close to mine and his political approach, skill and style, including the choices he's been making lately, are generally quite effective.

So I'm not progressive.


What Exactly (0.00 / 0)
does your comment have to do with my diary?

I'm utterly mystified.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Heh (0.00 / 0)
We've had a number of run-ins today, all of which I think more or less stem from this issue of definitions and labels and what it means to be a progressive. Since you referred to it directly (quoted below), I addressed the issue of what it means to be a progressive. I should have added another sentence or two upfront I suppose, making the connection.

But, by the same token, getting this basic fact and pledging up front to take significant action on it does not equate to being a progressive.  Heck, there was a time when someone might have cited this as evidence of being a proud, far-sighted, but sober-minded American conservative.

More importantly, perhaps, given how confused folks have gotten about labels lately, this pledge is not enough to make sense economically, in terms of basic economic justice. Which is why we need to raise the bar in terms of what we should expect from Obama.

I read the above and ran with it. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I'm not saying you're accusing those of us who don't agree with you of not being progressives. But from a practical perspective, that's sorta how it feels.  


[ Parent ]
Actually, What I'm Saying Is "Forget The Labels For A Moment, (0.00 / 0)
"And Let's Just Focus On What's Needed"

Let's talk about concrete results, with some specificity, so we know what we're talking about.

Because I hear folks like you saying, "Stimulus Package! Stimulus Package!  What more do you want?"

And I suspect that folks like you hear folks like me saying, "Not Enough! Not Enough! Whatever he does it's Not Enough!"

So, I wanted to bring it down to a more concrete discussion.  

And, instead of responding to that discussion.  Instead of listening to what I was saying about the concerns that flow from not having a progressive in the room.  Instead of any sign that you'd read what I was writing about, I got a virtual replay of exactly the sort of "poor me!" whine that I was hoping that we could get beyond.

Now, I'm not saying you didn't have your reasons.  You've just explained them to me.

But in retrospect, doesn't it seem that at least some of the problem here comes from how you are listening?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Perhaps (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, I saw those two full paragraphs and decided to respond to them rather than the meat of the post. Guilty as charged. I read a lot of your posts and respect and appreciate your work here. But those two paragraphs were like a big, shiny object to me.

But you also could have explained the purpose a bit clearer, IMO, by saying what you've just said.

As for the substance, you make some pretty good points. It's an interesting take. But I got to the update:

What I'm saying, essentially, is that if you capture the externalized benefits, rather than letting wealthy speculators, investors and others pocket it for themselves, then large infrastructure projects can literally pay for themselves, leaving the construction profits, jobs and all the multpilier effects as pure gravy.  It is, in fact, the legendary non-existent free lunch made manifest.

and immediately thought of Harrison Ford in the original Star Wars movie when told by Alec Guinness that they'll need to be able avoid the attention of the Empire and Ford responds, "Well, that's the trick, isn't it?" How do we capture the externalized benefits without creating unintended consequences?  


[ Parent ]
Good diary (4.00 / 2)
Back in the 1980s, before our railways were privatised and screwed up more comprehensively than government managers could have dreamed of, my father worked for the property section of British Rail.

They dealt with BR's estates by railway property, generally fields and open land, most of which was probably bought about 150 years ago by the first railway proprietors from local farmers.

But this land was worth millions by now. Because, as much as everybody hates the noise of the railway when you back on to it, you have a prime location and the value of that is hard to overstate.

Infrastructure is worth building because it creates jobs and has a positive long-term effect on efficiency. It connects communities, bringing new opportunities for employment. And it is used by people in their day-to-day lives, especially to get to work. And this makes land by it insanely profitable.

These kinds of opportunities need to be seized on if we want to create long-term dividends for investment in people.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


fairness (4.00 / 1)
Its a good point about infrastructure and wealth. Here in Oregon and elsewhere I'm sure we have a horrible  libertarian "takings" law, where the government has to pay for any possible property value lost through a new regulation, even during the bubble when everybody had made a mint on their property values. I've always thought there should also be a "givings" law, where if government rezoning or other action caused a massive increase in property value, the property owner has to share it with the people.

One other point- people who've been responsible with their mortgages resent watching tax money go to the reckless people. Likewise, take a state like Oregon that has managed to do pretty well with infrastructure, and made fair progress with green energy, all through income tax (ouch). Do we now watch the stimulus money go to other states? Unemployment is very high here since the timber and nursery businesses are construction-dependent. Somebody else made a point that some states could manage general stimulus grants well, but in other states government cronies will capture an unfair share.


I'm Sorry, But This Is SOOOOO Bogus (4.00 / 1)
One other point- people who've been responsible with their mortgages resent watching tax money go to the reckless people.

First off, so far virtually nothing has gone to people who got sub-prime mortagages.  The money is going to investment bankers and the like, and there's no reason that responsible people with mortgages should have any special sort of moral standing to be indignant of that.  Anyone at all has an equal right to be outraged.

Second, when we do talk about mortgage relief for those with sub-prime mortgages, the vast majority of folks we are talking about (who, again, have not received any of the trillions of dollars being tossed around) were not reckless people. They were being actively and intentionally mislead.  Many of them were steered toward subprime mortgages, even though they qualified for normal mortgages.  And the ones who didn't qualify were simply being punished for being poor with much harder terms.  In contrast, 50-60 years ago, people in similar circumstances were getting low-interest government mortgages with low or no down-payments.

So, as usual, there's a lot of misinformation that goes into feeding resentment, which actually does nothing at all to make things better for anyone.

Now, when it comes to developing green infrastructure, I think it's only fair to look at what peole have already done, and then seek to go farther.  So that states that have already made a considerable investment should be in line to go even further.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Infrastructure still helps (0.00 / 0)
The timber industry is construction dependent. And large infrastructure projects require a lot of construction work. So I'm not really seeing the problem with the stimulus for Oregon.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Spot On! (4.00 / 2)
There are very real, very pragmatic consequences to excluding people on the basis of "ideology."

Oh yeah. By now everyone should have noticed the only people excluded from policy positions for ideological reasons are vaguely from "The Left." Rightists are apparently not ideological people, under the Conventional Wizdumb these days. Funny, that.

If anyone has any doubts about the realities of ideology in DC Bubble World, just start Googling all the various appointees and you'll find lots of references to one ideology or another for each person--these people all went to schools that have Schools of Thought, so they all have ideologies. It's a given in the real world and there's certainly no shame in that. We ALL mature politically from one set of philosophies or another, so it only makes sense that we should all be able to identify those philosophies in order to gauge their practical implications in the real world, yes?

Indeed, one's ideology defines one's priorities, so this really does matter to most people whose lives will be greatly affected by decisions made by these ideology-free eunichs, yes? Like Who Wins and Who Loses? Thus far, only Wall Street seems to be winning much of anything....

Yet somehow, if one is judged to be "progressive" or something else the Villagers don't like, well, then ideology becomes this vague problem all of a sudden. Progressives are "angry" and "ideological," and Obama himself today said The People don't want "ideological." But even Obama has an ideology of some sort. He just won't say what it is.

Still, after seeing the demise of Brennan's attempt at getting CIA, it seems the netroots do have some pull after all. So perhaps they are listening. Well, they're listening on things not Wall Street Executive Wealthcare Program anyway.

--End Diatribe--



When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


Has this been tried anywhere? (0.00 / 0)
What I'm saying, essentially, is that if you capture the externalized benefits, rather than letting wealthy speculators, investors and others pocket it for themselves, then large infrastructure projects can literally pay for themselves, leaving the construction profits, jobs and all the multpilier effects as pure gravy.

You're advocating some sort of confiscatory tax on capital gains from the sale of real estate near train lines. Is that right? How would this work? I've never heard anyone advocate it before. Are you just going to seize the profits of the wealthy land owners, or everyone? Why not a 100% tax on business profits, too, since those profits are also a positive externality, the sale price of a business is based on operating profits, and the sale would otherwise also result in a capital gain?


Missing My Point, Somewhat (4.00 / 1)
First off, "confiscatory tax" is a loaded ideological term.  You can't be hatin on ideology and then talk like that at the same time.

So, take a clear-eyed, unbiased look at what I'm saying, it looks like this: If an infrastructure project increases property values more than 150% of the value of the project, then a 66 2/3% windfall profit tax still leaves tens, maybe hudred of billions in windfall profits, that no one outside of the multi-millionaire class or the Ayn Rand fan club would ever think about complaining over.  The multi-millionaire class is still going to get a much bigger chunk out of this than anyone else on a per-capita basis.  So they really don't have anything to complain about.

Has this ever been tried?  Not on the scale I'm talking about, no.  Which is precisely why we ought to have folks on Obama's team who are economically very experienced and interested in getting something new like this to work.  It may not turn out to be fully feasible, which is why I'd want to have the most dedicated people possible on the job, so that if we only recover 50% of the cost, and 1/3 of the externalized benefits, we'll know that it was not for the lack of trying, and we can then use that effort as a sound building block for improving on the next time around.

Hope this makes things clearer for you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You should have seen my comment before I edited it (0.00 / 0)
Okay, that's more specific as a thought experiment: "If an infrastructure project increases property values more than 150% of the value of the project, then a 66 2/3% windfall profit tax still leaves tens, maybe hudred of billions in windfall profits". (Don't you think "windfall profits" is a loaded ideological term? Never mind.) I have a couple of objections, some practical and some political.

Practically, how do you figure out causation, so you can identify the gains caused by the public works project v. the gains from some other cause? Do you say everything within a three-mile radius of a new train station is subject to the windfall profits tax?

What about timing: Say I built an apartment complex in 2000, the train station opens in 2010, and I sell it in 2015, realizing a capital gain. I might think the gain proceeded from the population growth in the area that increased demand for apartments, which was a cause not an effect of the opening of the train station.

The biggest problem is tax collection. Many commercial real estate sales involving selling ownership interests in single-purpose entities that own the underlying real estate, not in selling the deed to the property itself. When the taxes are paid on those transactions, the state and federal taxing authorities have no way of knowing where the underlying real estate is located, or even that real estate is involved. Your windfall-profits tax idea hinges on knowing that 1925 Chester Pike was sold, but 1925 Chester Pike is owned by 1925 Chester Pike LLC, which in turn is owned by SoPenn REIT, a publicly traded entity that owns property all over the country (I made all that up). When  stock in SoPenn REIT is sold, and a capital gain is realized, how much of it is subject to the windfall profits tax?

Politically, just my opinion, but the whole idea is electoral suicide for any member of Congress with a public transit project in his or her district. A party or President that seriously backed such a proposal would encounter a major revolt.

Anyway, off to do Thanksgiving traveling. I'll see your reply later.


[ Parent ]
Editing Comments, What A Novel Idea! (0.00 / 0)
(Yeah, I try it myself, too, I'm embarrassed to admit.  I like to pretend otherwise, but...)

Foist things foist, before foisting anything else on you:

(Don't you think "windfall profits" is a loaded ideological term? Never mind.)

It can be, I suppose.  But if this isn't a textbook case, I don't know what is.  Give me a better term, and I'll happily use it instead.  However, "confiscatory tax" is a rightwing propaganda term that refers to any tax the speaker/writer doesn't like.  "Windfall profits" can be used ideologically, but originates from a non-ideological framework.  History means something in defining and characterizing terms, as all good dictionaries attest to.

Now, onto the rest.  Which is, really, surprisingly brief: You're right.  There are implmentation challenges of both a conceptual and a technical/operational nature.  The conceptual challenges include ethical conserations as well as other concerns.  All this is precisely why you want to have folks crafting policy who believe in the underlying premise--that when government creates private wealth, it should get something back, in order to be able to continue the cycle all over again, rather than continually just sucking the money out of the taxpayers at large, and disproporionately benefitting only the wealthy and well-connected.

As for the potentially deadly political costs.  I'm glad you brought this up.  Because the only realistic way I think you can handle this (though I could be wrong, anytime anyone--including me--says "the only way" one ought to be suspicious) involves some sort of public education/buy-in process.  So you have to have a wide-ranging public discussion process about what is the fair way to proceed.  This process doesn't necessarily have to involve the fine-print stage--though it could.  But it should involve the drafting of a conceptual framework document that gets wide circulation and support before proceeding to implementation.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Straight up capital gains tax, that's all. (4.00 / 1)
It's called "unearned income" for a reason.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
ps (0.00 / 0)
and on what wingnut site did you learn profits are an externality? Profits are the point of being in business, not an externality.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
trains!!!!! (4.00 / 1)
i love trains :)

okay, now that i've stated my biases up front, I have to say that I think the excitement in this post and the post itself are fabulous and refreshing.  In terms of getting to the nitty gritty, I wonder how you do the prioritization of subway style transportaton (or other mass transportatiion systems like effective bus systems in cities like LA) or intercity travel and what the costs and benefits are.

Note, I'm not talking economically - which is a cost/benefit that is always done - but in terms of social and political and psychological structural gains.  For example, the same way that the highway in part spawned the suburbs and the strip mall and people sitting at home on september 12 watching fox news in terror and buying gas masks while people in new york sort of lived, the creation of livable cities and more of them and a more connected country by train (like europe) would be an enormous enormonus improvement on so many levels.

amtrak's gotta go  though - sometimes you need new institutions because that one's got a terrible rep whether deserved or not.  Sneakily make a new institution that's essentially the same thing or bigger - and then fold in the working parts of amtrak into that (sort of like they did with DHS and the INS, except without the continued incompetence, orwellianism, and draconian violence).

Okay, awesome!  I'm superpsyched!  trains!!!!
 


and on an aside (0.00 / 0)
someone convince the autoworkers union to make the case for setting up a pilot project in detroit.  if there was ever a city that needed improved mass transit, jobs that pay okay, and increased housing values, that would be it.  Ask them  to get the Democratic leadership to toss it in with the inevitable bailout.

[ Parent ]
Livable cities connected by trains ... (4.00 / 1)
isn't that what happened to Europe when they abandoned their dreams of empire? I'm just saying.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I Don't Have An Answer (0.00 / 0)
In terms of getting to the nitty gritty, I wonder how you do the prioritization of subway style transportaton (or other mass transportatiion systems like effective bus systems in cities like LA) or intercity travel and what the costs and benefits are.

Note, I'm not talking economically - which is a cost/benefit that is always done - but in terms of social and political and psychological structural gains.

But this is precisely the right question.

So my answer is, study this question.  Don't take forever on it, before doing anything else.  We can get started on initiatives right now without having the end-game mapped out.  But we need to institute a serious multi-factor, multi-dimensional planning process that aims toward meeting the goals you describe.  Some good examples of guideline approaches that can be built upon and expanded can be found at Redefining Progress and SustainLane.

Redefining Progress I've known about for some time.  SustainLane just came onto my radar screen a couple of months ago, when LA's rather disappointing sustainability ranking (#28 out of America's 50 largest cities, down from #25 in 2006) was included in a presentation supporting a sustainable alternative model for developing the LA waterfront in San Pedro.  One of the factors that goes into SustainLane's ranking is affordable housing.  Reason: without affordable housing you create a tremendous commmuting cost.

This is just the tip of a much bigger iceberg:  There is an inherent connection between sustainability and overall equality.  I'm not necessarily saying a classless society--though that's certainly where Star Trek socialism is headed in the long run.  But I am saying that there are inherent costs to inequality that grow intolerable and unsustainable beyond a certain point, and we need a public ethos that reflects consciousness of that.  Maybe something along the lines that "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into heaven."

So, in addition to the whole reality-based planning side of things, I also think it would be really cool if maybe we tried getting the faith-based crowd thinking about our public parts instead of our private parts for a change.

Ya think?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Corporate Greed (0.00 / 0)
The problem we face is that it isn't really all about Bush.  Framing today's economic disaster in political terms simply doesn't wash, because the corporate financial guys have been cooking the books through several presidents.  Today, it's a fine art.

Right now, the name of the game is to be big and appear to be on the brink of complete collapse.  That's not at all hard for the magicians in the CFO offices to conjure up, just as it's not hard to appear to be pulling in a good quarter when, in fact, profits are down.

Until we see an end, a real end, to corporate theft of assets through these methods, the problem will continue.

I'm fairly convinced that some people need to be held truly accountable and charged with the crime of embezzlement, which is what it is when you lie to your stockholders about the state of the business.  

I wait to see if Obama has the courage to take that route.

That, and that alone, will stop this fraudulant approach to business.


Thanks. (4.00 / 1)
I caught that Democracy Now segment in the middle and had no idea what that guy was talking about. Thanks for the summary.

You make a great point about having progressives in the room to point out stuff like that. I am really hoping that some of the mid-level positions will be real progressives and that they will actually be in the room when the high level discussions are occurring.

miasmo.com


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