A Mass Psychological Change

by: David Sirota

Wed Dec 03, 2008 at 15:00


What worries me about this moment is not whether Barack Obama will do good, progressive things. As I've said ad nauseum, I think he will. And what worries me is not debates on the merits of particular policy - let's have those on the merits, not on grounds that define "anything [insert beloved politician] does" right and true and pure and moral. What worries me is that the mass psychology of the country has changed - that our entire conception of what it means to live in a democracy has radically changed, and not for the better.

I encourage folks to go back through the posts on this site and others and look at the reaction to anyone who questions, points out, or raises a flag when our Dear Leader has backed off a campaign promise or made an appointment that seems at odds with policy pledges.* Obama has no anti-war voices in his cabinet? We shouldn't worry, and to even mention it is an act of treason. Obama put free-trading deregulators in his cabinet after campaigning against free trade and deregulation? STFU, you irrelevant jerk. Obama backed off major tax promises? No it's not true despite the facts, and who really cares - regulating the oil industry isn't important anymore.

In other words, whenever questions are raised - no matter how gently or how substantive - the person raising it is attacked as a "concern troll," a "whiner," a purist martyr on a crucifix, a self-important attention freak who thinks he/she is a hero, a horrifically disloyal traitor or a "liar" (the last of which is most appalling, since those making the accusations may disagree on opinion, but rarely actually offer up where the questioners are factually inaccurate).

This is the digital brownshirt-ism that Al Gore warned about - where merely questioning why a politician changed his position gets you slandered as disloyal, or worse, provokes absurd Orwellian denials that the policy has changed, when it inarguably has. The tenor of it suggests a crouched fear and paranoia - the kind displayed from the government in authoritarian countries whenever uncomfortable truths about the Dear Leader are raised.  

David Sirota :: A Mass Psychological Change
And so to me, the worry is not really whether Barack Obama will pass good policy - I think on the whole he will. The longer-term worry is that the mass psychology of the country has become that of dittoheads; that the idea of "citizenship" now means never questioning the Dear Leader, berating those who do, and setting up the false "your with us or against us" frame - the one where you're 100% disloyal (or "angry" or "negative" or "vituperative" or "on the fringe") if you question him at all. The one where it's only black and white, loyal or disloyal, the Dear Leader or Apostasy - and it's somehow impossible to support the Dear Leader when he does the right thing, and pressure him when he backs off his own promises.

Just because a leader is powerful doesn't mean it is a democratic citizenry's duty to treat him/her as a Dear Leader and worship that power - it was our Founding Fathers who made that point over and over again. Just because a leader is wildly popular doesn't mean he/she should be viewed as a Dear Leader never to be questioned or pressured - the refusal to pressure George W. Bush when he was at 90% in the polls after 9/11 helped get us the Iraq War. Just because a leader seems progressive in their heart and voiced power-challenging themes on the campaign trail, doesn't mean that, without pressure, they are going to be progressive or challenge power - on issues like NAFTA, Bill Clinton reminded us that "power concedes nothing without demand." And just because a movement might get repeateadly steamrolled by the Establishment doesn't mean that movement is irrelevant or unworthy of participation or "on the fringe" - were labor leaders killed at mines or civil rights workers lynched in the Jim Crow south irrelevant, "on the fringe" and unworthy of support?

Indeed, imagine where our country would be if the Dear Leader psychology was the norm for, say, the last 50 years. Imagine a mass movement not supporting  Martin Luther King, but berating him for putting oppositional pressure on Dear Leader Lyndon Johnson after Johnson's landslide 1964 victory. Imagine a mass movement not supporting the rights of workers, but berating labor leaders for politically threatening Dear Leader Franklin Roosevelt unless he passed labor laws. If that was the mass psychology in our history - if our history was one of organizing around and prioritizing support for individual Dear Leaders rather than a core set of issues and values - we'd still be living in a 19th century country.**

But I fear this may be becoming the mass psychology today. So sure, the current Dear Leader, Obama, may make some really progressive decisions and we may get out of this economic crisis. As I said, I think that's going to happen. However, if we have lost what it means to democratically engage in the act of governance, then we may have a much bigger and deeper crisis on our hands - one that undermines the self-determination, accountability and ownership of government that has positively differentiated America from a run-of-the-mill Third World autocracy and made our country that "shining city on a hill."

* Sure, website comments/discussion is not a scientific measure of American public opinion, but it is a decent snapshot of activist opinion and related - at least in some way - to the larger cultural psyche.

** As a sidenote, Obama himself seems to recognize these truths. In speeches during the campaign he noted that he would need an independent movement pressuring him. Additionally, his web team allowing an anti-FISA movement to grow on his website showed that the person being depicted as a Dear Leader does understand the danger of being seen as a Dear Leader. My guess is that's because he came out of community organizing - a discipline that is antithetical to Dear Leader-ism.


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Well I have to take issue with (4.00 / 3)
you here David?  The country hasn't changed one bit.  

What do you think happened in the run-up to Iraq to those of us who questioned it?

What has really happened is the neocons in the media and on the blogs who were always ditto heads, jumped ship on Bush and republicans and became dittoheads for Obama.

Obama does appear to have accomodated them since most the controversial picks in his adminstration are controversial for their alliances to the neocons.


As old as humanity (4.00 / 3)
Nothing new.

Also, I don't think the "however gently" is something David would have much experience with, so it is easy to confuse the various range of reactions.


[ Parent ]
heh. (2.00 / 4)
Also, I don't think the "however gently" is something David would have much experience with, so it is easy to confuse the various range of reactions.


[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 2)
Well, to be fair, what we're seeing is a lot of authoritarian-ish thinking on the left. It's not just (or even mostly) ObamaCons who are behaving this way.

This will possibly get easier when the Administration takes control and there's an actual policy agenda to back (or buck), but right now around appointments and everything else there's a big meta-debate, and it's clear that a number of vocal Obama supporters are allergic to criticism from the left.

It remains to be seen whether this is really a powerful Authoritarian mindset which (since the left hasn't had any credible authority figures for a while) has just been lurking below the surface, or more a case of political infatuation with a charismatic figure. Time will tell, but you're 100% right on the that parallels w/the run-up to war and post-9/11 mindset in general are what's disturbing.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
I don't know whether it is left (4.00 / 1)
In the media it is mostly coming from former Bush supporters and Democrats that were known to accommodate Bush like the DLC.

[ Parent ]
Just for fun, David and your worshipers enjoy your place with (0.00 / 0)
~20% of the bush supporters and the right fringe.

Obama Approv for transition picks and performance
75%+

Gates appointment 80%+

Clinton appointment %69+

CNN:
http://politicalticker.blogs.c...

Gallup:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/p...

P.S> Yea yea americans opinions dont matter! or I am sure polls don't reflect public opinion! (we have them were want them McCain would say!) oh and the polls proved so wrong this cycle they cant be possibly accurate! who cares what the absolute majority people say or think we know what is best for them!

Just preempting the deluded who discredit polls when they don't like the results. either from the left or right.


[ Parent ]
You could have made the same claim with (0.00 / 0)
the war.  Most people supported it and Bush so they must be right, and we should shut up.

[ Parent ]
Not really (0.00 / 0)
Show me where 70+% of the country supported the war before it started? after it started is a different story since they had troops in the line of fire to support.

[ Parent ]
Here is the poll (0.00 / 0)
They supported war over inspection by 46%.

[ Parent ]
So you're persisting with the "Dear Leader" terminology? (4.00 / 8)
Here's a bit on the cult surrounding the original "Dear Leader": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K...

Critics maintain Kim Jong-il is the centre of an elaborate personality cult inherited from his father and founder of the DPRK, Kim Il-sung. Defectors have been quoted as saying that North Korean schools deify both father and son

The term "Dear Leader" in this context invites a comparison between Barack Obama and Kim Jong-il. If I were a wingnut, I'd jump on that bandwagon.


The term "Dear Leader" (4.00 / 7)
can be applied to anyone who isn't to be questioned.

[ Parent ]
Isn't the term for that (4.00 / 6)
"sacred cow?"

"Dear Leader" brakes Godwin's Law and is far more disturbing.

Though I like David Sirota and have complimented him to his face, I think lately he has gone off the deep end. Sure, there are a few Obamabots at this web site, but so far I have seen him answer the easy answers and not the hard, challenging wons. To put it another way, he is attacking the straw men and not the iron men.  


[ Parent ]
I don't associate it with Nazis (0.00 / 0)
I associate the phrase with Kings.

[ Parent ]
In any event, (0.00 / 0)
I think the Logical Fallacy of Godwin's Law is misnamed. Fallacy Files suggests it should be "Argumentum Ad Nazium," (Latin, lit. "Argument to the Nazi") but I think it should be "Argumentum ad hominem, diabolus es" (Latin, lit. "Argument to the man, you are the devil). That is, the fallacy should be expanded to encompass any truly evil person or entity, and not be limited to Hitler or the Nazis.  

[ Parent ]
"Dear Leader" isn't associated with Nazis (4.00 / 5)
Brownshirts most definitely is.

Sorry, but Sirota is clearly and indefensibly over the line with these posts.


[ Parent ]
"Dear Leader" (4.00 / 2)
not nazis, no.  But it's the reference to Kim Jong-il of North Korea.  Nice, huh?

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




[ Parent ]
Orwellian (4.00 / 4)
I take Dear Leader as more of an Orwellian term.

[ Parent ]
Sure, but using it may have consequences (3.50 / 8)
such as pissing off other folks that might just feel compelled to return verbal fire.  If that's the goal, fine. But Sirota doesn't seem to be able to take what he dishes out. Its unfortunate because it diverts (to some extent) from the substance of the debates he sparks.

Ultimately, WTF? We are all imperfect humans, after all, so if I have to wade through a string of posts where David trades barbs with some other participant, it bums me out, but I'll survive :)

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I assume he is returning fire himself (0.00 / 0)
since he puts in quotes.  Using the phrases, "concern troll" and "purity troll" can have the same effects.

[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
trading barbs pretty much implies such

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Sorry, meta (4.00 / 2)
David Kowalski, what's up with all the troll-rating for reasonable disagreement?  Care to explain?

If you have something to argue, argue it.  Don't just go troll-rating anything you don't like.


[ Parent ]
I was wondering the same thing (4.00 / 1)
OTOH, its my first TR and I can't help feeling as though I've gone through some kind of "rite of passage".


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
It's possibly accidental (4.00 / 2)
If you're scrolling down the page with the mouse wheel, and it lands on one of the ratings drop-downs, it's possible to accidentally give a post a rating.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
TR abuse is not typical for him... (0.00 / 0)
as evident here:
http://www.openleft.com/userDi...

So, I guess you're right with your "accidental" explanation.


[ Parent ]
Its an accurate... (4.00 / 4)
Its an accurate way of describing how many Obama supporters are behaving, a little hyperbolic, but it gets the point across.

OBAMA! RIGHT OR WRONG!


[ Parent ]
Does it? (3.27 / 11)
Actually, it has made me tune out anything Sirota writes at this point. That seems less than ideal.

Although I must admit, I guess it is impressive that he can type the brown shirt drivel with his hands nailed to that cross he carries around. Props for that, I suppose.


[ Parent ]
Not all of us assume consensus (4.00 / 2)
is possible, or desirable.  People have different interests, though the poor generally have compelling ones, like health care, and good wages.

[ Parent ]
I'm not surprised... (4.00 / 3)
I'm not surprised you can't bypass your initial emotional reactions so as to be able to understand what he's trying to say.  

This is how many Obamaphiles behave when Obama is taken to task.


[ Parent ]
Name-calling, awesome (3.33 / 6)
What do you know about me, "mugshot", as I assume that is what is on your drivers license.

Jeebus.

That you, and Sirota, and whomever else cannot understand the constructive criticism that has been offered by a lot of people for the tone (bordering on invective) that is coming from him right now, makes me a bit sad. Again, it is a Fox News-style approach to things, and it is as ugly from the left as it is from the right.

"Brown shirts" is Fox News/Limbaugh style dehumanizing name-calling. It is offensive. And it makes Sirota not worth listening to. Same as from the right.


[ Parent ]
And people like you (2.67 / 3)
And people like you can't see that you're giving Obama carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants. But I suppose having a president with a (D) beside his name makes him too important to take to task.

[ Parent ]
You don't know anything about me (4.00 / 1)
That is the laughable part. Officious is as officious does, "mugshot".


[ Parent ]
Is that at me? (0.00 / 0)
I am "trolling" now?

Wow.


[ Parent ]
Or possibly flaming (0.00 / 0)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

I don't know whether you're doing it on purpose or not (which would be the critical info for the Troll definition) but it's quite effective in either case.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
So my option is to say nothing, then? (0.00 / 0)
I am always confused as to the rules for voicing agreement and disagreement in situations like this.

If my opinion is that the name-calling that Sirota and others are engaging in is generally unhelpful to their points, it is flaming to voice that opinion? How does one voice an opinion, then? E-mail? Flare? Letter to the editor?


[ Parent ]
flaming is cyclical (0.00 / 0)
Hey, since you seem genuine, here's my take.

I'm not suggesting you STFU or anything. I'm just flagging the cycle of name-calling (flaming) is based on people fueling the fire. There's tons of internet sociology about how all this works (and about how it's particularly bad given the pseudonymous medium), a lot of whichi s pretty fascinating reading. Anyway, you're pretty good at fueling the fire, which is saying something about your rhetorical skills at least. ;)

My honest suggestion would be to think about what your objective is; rather than trying to "score points" with rhetoric designed to inflame your opponents, try addressing their substantive points in a way that assumes they're actually trying to make some. You're likely to get something similar in response. Trying to one-up people just makes them want to one-up you back, and thus the flame war is born.

If you don't think they're making substantive points, it's generally best not to respond, or to simply register that you think it's bogus or the like. For instance, your first comment that i saw on this thread reads:

Actually, it has made me tune out anything Sirota writes at this point. That seems less than ideal.

Although I must admit, I guess it is impressive that he can type the brown shirt drivel with his hands nailed to that cross he carries around. Props for that, I suppose.

The first part of that comment is great. It's clear, to the point, etc.

But then the second part. There's no objective there other than to insult the author and provoke a similarly insult-oriented response, which is what you get. That's the etymological origin of "Trolling" btw: like in fishing, someone puts out inflammatory statements, trolling for a bite.

In the rest of the thread you also directly insult a bunch of other regular posters in ways that don't further any kind of mutual understanding. It doesn't serve anyone to call other people "O'Reily Clones" for instance, or to insult their intelligence, etc.  

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
The second part was over the top (4.00 / 1)
and I regret it. But, no edit function, so there it is.

The comments I have about "O'Reilly-like" behavior, I stand behind. I am NOT a fan of calling a group names, then, having marginalized and labeled them, using their objection to same to claim that makes the name accurate. That is a classic right-wing media tack, and it is a horrible look on this site.

Look, I have lurked much of the blogosphere for years. I diary only infrequently, because I don't have time. I have landed here at Open Left as my primary "home" because I am challenged more by Chris et al than at other sites.

But I do wish a few of the regulars would find a way to make their points without wearing the wounds from their battles so obviously.  And I do think there has to be room (or I hope there is) for people to disagree with a take that is critical of Obama without being reflexively called an Obama-bot. There are plenty of criticisms of Obama made by David, Paul, Chris, and others that I think are spot on, and I don't feel a need to respond to. There are others I disagree with. Does that make me an Obama-bot if I choose to infrequently weigh in at those times?

At any rate, I am simply hoping, in the final analysis, that Paul, David, Matt and whomever else will consider if it is really a help to their point to engage in "if the brownshirt fits, wear it" kind of behavior. I just don't understand how that helps them make their point, or persuade anyone.

---Aaron


[ Parent ]
I see yr point (0.00 / 0)
And when you say it that way, it's quite persuasive! ;)

This actually prompted me to write a little diary:

http://openleft.com/showDiary....

As to this thread, the charitable interpretation would be that the post isn't really directed at you, since you don't reflexively disagree with any critique of Obama. So you can make the point (as above) rather than being combative. Might get better results.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
If The Brownshirt Fits, Wear It (3.56 / 9)
If it's not an accurate description, then why does it get under your skin?

He's not labelling all support for Obama this way.  

Don't look now, but those of you who attack David this way are actually making his point for him.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Should have known this would draw you too (3.60 / 10)
You are so blind, at this point, that you cannot even grasp the criticism, is that it?

Does their need to be a litmus test for what I agree and disagree with Obama on? Does it need to be run by you, and Mizner, and Sirota, to find out if I am a "brown-shirt" or not? Does it need to dovetail with what you all agree and disagree with him on?

That you, Paul, cannot grasp exactly why that kind of inflammatory verbiage is unhelpful to your points, and the causes you are trying to forward, makes me question just how intelligent you are.  


[ Parent ]
I Grasp The Criticism (4.00 / 4)
And I could have sympathy for it, even.  But the way in which people respond to David's criticism--including fixating on his tone, choice of words, etc.--only serves to support his argument.

The problem for David's critics is that this did not all just begin yesterday.  He has a long history of nuanced commentary and reporting that people tend to misconstrue as much more black-and-white than it actually is.  His Nation interview/article with Obama was a classic exmple of this. After a couple of years of being consistently misconstrued and misrepresented, a fellah (or even a gal) does tend to get a bit testy from time to time.  And when they try to write about the experience, and place it in larger context, then the fat's really in fire.

That's what I see going on here, and yeah, every move that David makes isn't flawless.  But the fact is, there isn't any way to do this flawlessly.  It's inherently messy.  Which is one reason that few people have the courage to go this route.  

But even one is one too many, right?

These red herring arguments:

Does their need to be a litmus test for what I agree and disagree with Obama on? Does it need to be run by you, and Mizner, and Sirota, to find out if I am a "brown-shirt" or not? Does it need to dovetail with what you all agree and disagree with him on?

are the real give-away here.  It's not about what we agree or disagree over, it's about how.

I wrote a diary last weekend, criticizing Nate Silver's categorization of Obama's agenda as laid out on his website.  I was not criticizing Obama, or his agenda.  In fact, at the modest level of detail involved, there wasn't a single item I was opposed to. And yet, the knee-jerkers went wild accusing me of attacking Obama.

Well, people who do that have earned my scorn.  Not because they disagree with me.  But because they can't even read what I've written, but feel free to attack me anyway.

Disagreement I can handle.  Indeed, I welcome it, because dealing with disagreement is a vital part of how we learn and grow.  But disagreement based on careless misreading has no such potential to it.  Put in the work to respond to what's being said, instead of a strawman, and then see what kind of response you'll get.  But keep on attacking stawmen, and you will never gain the respect you seek.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"He has a long history of nuanced commentary" Nuanced? When? (0.00 / 0)
Sry, but that's not my impresion. I suspect David likes the "rabble rouser" label pinned on him by the NYT a bit too much and deliberately makes all those statements a la "brownshirts" that are GUARANTEED to put oil in the flames. And I have to say I'm a bit disappointed about you being unable to see how this Nazi comparison insults people, Paul.

[ Parent ]
Nuanced, Here (0.00 / 0)
"Mr. Obama Goes To Washington".  Quoting different passages would be misleading, as my point is that the whole has greater comlexity and nuance than the sum of its parts.

And the notion that "rabble rousing" and nuance can't go together is yet another Big Lie from the "serious people" who brought you the Iraq War, and everything else we love so much about the Bush years.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hey! Even though people accuse me of being too serious frequently, (0.00 / 0)
that point about rabble rousing was my original idea. I certainly didn't copy it from other "serious people", who are serious in a totally different way!
:D
As for your example - ok, ok, I stand corrected once again, apparently David CAN do nuance. I just wish he would use that talent much more often.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, I wonder about this too (3.11 / 9)
The mass of commenters doth protest too much, methinks.

[ Parent ]
Well, done, O'Reilly clone (2.91 / 11)
Textbook right-wing media playbook, right there. Name-call, and then respond to criticism of the invective by claiming that it proves the name-calling correct in the first place.

You should be ashamed.


[ Parent ]
Gee, Paul (4.00 / 4)
When did you stop beating your wife?

Seriously, have you ever convinced anyone of your point of view by calling them names?

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


[ Parent ]
That's quite a circle, Paul. (4.00 / 9)
We can't criticize David at all for making an inflammatory, hyperbolic argument because doing so proves his point?  Hardly.

No one's trying to silence anyone. No one's calling dissent "treason".  It's a martyr complex without a cross.


[ Parent ]
Double recommend (4.00 / 3)
Yeah, lately David's posts are like smoke to bees for the Obamabots.  I have a feeling they would mind if he applied the terms "brownshirts" or "Dear Leader" to the followers of someone else - say, a Republican or Ralph Nader.

[ Parent ]
correction: (0.00 / 0)
wouldn't mind

[ Parent ]
So anyone who disagrees with David is an Obamabot? (4.00 / 5)


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 3)
Of course. It's a very simple pattern, haven't you figured it out?

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
Of course not... (4.00 / 1)
but when they do so to nearly every post he writes that criticizes Obama, then it begins to appear robotic and mechanical.  

[ Parent ]
have you read my comments or those of others (4.00 / 2)
as to their basis of crique or is it the mere disagreement. its a little odd your argument. basically it is saying that you are being attacked for disagreement with Obama because we are disagreeing with the substance of the criticism. For instance, this diary is a product of myself and others disagreeing with david about the economic downturna nd what that means regarding a windfall tax. i happen to thinkt he economic down trun maybe as krugman says- a depression era event that must be addressed quickly. as i write below i think we maybe on an edge between a deep recession or a depression. therefore i want to focus on kenysian economic policies rather than even the take chance that david is wrong on someting about which in ordinary economic times I would agree with him on. but the question remains do you see these as ordinary times- even by recession standards, or are we seeing the precursor to a depression that can be prevented if we make the right decisions? that's not an argument about obama per se as much as it is about which of us , david or myself, is right about the economic situation. to then label that as obamabot is why i find the whole post offensive. several others made the exact same arguments along that prio thread.

[ Parent ]
It most definitely is NOT an accurate description (4.00 / 4)
The brownshirts were originally the Nazi storm troopers.

I have read a number of your comments admonishing others that "words have meaning". The term "brownshirts" has a clear historical meaning as well, and simply because Al Gore has used it without regard for its origination doesn't make its use acceptable in the present context.

Unless you can provide evidence that those who Gore, Sirota, and now you are labeling as "brownshirts" have engaged in physical attacks in paramilitary style, you should think twice before defending use of the term.

It really does seem that there is an argument being made for splitting the Democratic Party into Democratic and Progressive Parties. When some members of a political party are being told that their opinions are not only worthless but destructive to the country by other members of the party, the party is no longer a coalition. You need to think hard about making that argument, because the Democratic Party apparatus is very clearly under the control of Obama at the moment. Calling members of the Obama coalition "brownshirts" sets you clearly on a course for no longer being a part of that coalition - and that would mean creating a new party apparatus from scratch.

I'm not necessarily opposed to having that split. But it doesn't make sense to me as a strategy unless the Republican Party is considered clearly no longer viable: creating a new two party structure with Democratic and Progressive Parties is an idea that has its merits, but you are setting the Progressive Party up as the opposition to the Democratic Party that is now in power.


[ Parent ]
Actually the Brownshirts (0.00 / 0)
were the followers of Mussolini.  

[ Parent ]
Well, one shirt color is as good as another (4.00 / 3)
Mussolini's were actually blackshirts, at least according to Widipedia.

Sirota should show some imagination, and label his enemies "blueshirts". Or maybe dispense with colors - how about "changeshirts"?


[ Parent ]
at least we are (0.00 / 0)
arguing facts and not your personal issues with Sirota.  

[ Parent ]
Why did you get an addition to your name? (0.00 / 0)
?

[ Parent ]
Just a coincidence, I'm sure (2.00 / 2)
Suddenly the "Mithras" account stopped working, even after resetting the password. So I created a new one.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe your a zombie?n/t (0.00 / 0)
n/t

[ Parent ]
I don't think zombies change their names (0.00 / 0)
or acquire last names when they're reanimated.  

[ Parent ]
This most probably means you have been banned. (0.00 / 0)
No misunderstanding, happened to me once, too. And I also remember spending a lot of time checking my browser and wondering if anything was wrong with my username and/or password. Even being concerned that the OpenLeft website had crashed. I finally solved the issue by emailing Matt and Chris.

Since this incident, I have been arguing again and again that more transparency is needed. If people are banned, they should at least get an email telling them so. And a temporary ban for one or two days would be a good idea. Why ban good commenters for life because of a single day of bad temper? Sounds like breaking a fly on a wheel to me.


[ Parent ]
the fact you frame this as "Obama supporter" rather than the issues (4.00 / 6)
being discussed is actually the example of cult of personality analysis rather than discussing issues. Some one gave you a 4 for essentially saying nothing but "they are obama supproters.' For the record, I supported edwards during the primary, and was neutral until obama secured the nomination. during the election i was critical of his decision on FISA.

This is the record, and yet everyone is sweept under your rhectoric which is basically mindless jingoism about people with whom Sirota disagrees. You are here supporting tha tmindless thinking processes, as if you are in fact the ones thinking. When challneged on the tax issues for example- there was just this tendency to ignore any counter point.


[ Parent ]
Oh, please (4.00 / 5)
it's a comment on some Obama supporters not Obama himself.

[ Parent ]
Bullshit (3.33 / 12)
It's an offensive and officious dismissal of anyone who has questioned he nature and extent of Sirota's (or yours, for that matter) criticisms at this point.

And if you, and Sirota, don't understand how that kind of tone makes people tune you out, then there is nothing much else to say.  


[ Parent ]
You don't seem to be tuning Sirota out (4.00 / 7)
On the contrary you're here putting up a stink.

[ Parent ]
Well, David, (4.00 / 6)
I skip just about every fifth Sirota post at this point, and tepidly wade into that fifth one. This happened to be that one.

And where I have waded in, I have consistently urged that he consider finding a way to make his points that does not cause people to sua sponte tune him out.

But, hey, since I have long since tuned you out across the blogosphere, for your officious approach, I guess I will do that with Sirota as well, as that seems to be, as always, the childish response given when people question the effectiveness of the approach and tone you and Sirota have chosen to take. Same response Limbaugh and his ilk give when they are criticized. Fox-ization at its best. Congrats.


[ Parent ]
He wrote the post he wanted to write (3.33 / 6)
He wanted to say that there's a cult-like Dear leader aspect to the Obama movement.

Feel free to disagree but stop pretending that there's a way he could've made the same points in a fashion you'd find acceptable.

But I see this game all over the place...

You can say he leans to the center, or that he's a centrist on some issues but BY ALL MEANS YOU MUST NOT CALL HIM A CENTRIST BECAUSE THAT IS COUNTERFACTUAL AND INFLAMMATORY AND MIGHT HURT THE FEELINGS OF SOME OBAMA SUPPORTERS, WHO GODDAMNIT ARE JUST AS PROGRESSIVE AS YOU ARE, THEY JUST HAVE  A DIFFERENT IDEA...

my point being that there's a vasty higher threshold for taste, accuracy, and temperance in posts that involve Obama, which is part of the problem Sirota touches on here.


[ Parent ]
And the "Dear Leader" ... (4.00 / 4)
...bitterness posts and name-calling persuades people of your viewpoint, how, exactly? Any other way to get the point across, Mizner? Any way at all? Or is that a senseless idea?

[ Parent ]
let me say this one more time. (4.00 / 7)
That is his point.

[ Parent ]
I agree with the poster (4.00 / 4)
In context this post by sirota is b.s. and your knee jerk defense is tiring. The fact is this comes after he wrote a post in which ohters pointed out that progressive economist questioned raising taxes before obama's backing down on possible windfall taxes if we are in a potential depression era economy. Obama had little to do with my views other than it fit with what some economics were sayig. I was using rational thinking processes based on logic and data available to me. To then see this pos tis an afront to that exchange. it's meant to flare up people like you, but it elucidates nothing regarding that diary's exchange.

[ Parent ]
One other thing... (0.00 / 0)
...I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by calling my commentary a "stink". I am a pretty-damn left-leaning progressive. 37. Life-long movement political activist. What do you accomplish by pushing people like me away from whatever it is you have to say? What is the goal? To replace me with someone who thinks exactly like you do? To gather a bunch of children who think name-calling is conducive to discourse? What's the end game?  

[ Parent ]
David Sirota is attacking progressives. (2.50 / 8)
Progressives are fighting back.

[ Parent ]
What are (4.00 / 2)
"progressives"?  

That word seems to mean almost anything nowadays.


[ Parent ]
Sirota wrote this after I and others questioned (4.00 / 5)
his thinking regarding the windfall tax. I pointed out that many progressive economists including Krugman believe we are in a depression era type economy, and that means taxes must not b e raised and we must engage in heavy spending. krugman said this before Obama spoke on the subject. I was saying that i felt Obama may just be following these "big policy" shifts like was suggested as a result of the hitory coming out of FDR's struggle. Rather than discussing , you come here with this silliness which is mostly emotional button pushing. Truly unproductive.

[ Parent ]
Are you forgetting this post (4.00 / 1)
Where I show that FDR raised taxes a full three times during his administration, so that Krugman appears to be telling half truths, whether he knows it or not.

http://www.openleft.com/showCo...


[ Parent ]
I ignore you because you are factually wrong (2.00 / 2)
And now as then attacked people who have a better grounding in those facts than you do. More than that, the anlaysis was not asa Sirota is now claiming about Obama. it was about progressive economists making a certain argument based on historical analysis. There are other countries in whihch this has occured including Japan.  

[ Parent ]
You have a better grounding in fact but (4.00 / 1)
don't produce and facts, and you claim I am attacking you?

[ Parent ]
i support the windfall tax but actually bother to read (4.00 / 2)
people who disagree with my views. so yes, better grounding than yours which is mostly just you spending history so as to twist it into ways that do not pass the smell test. this is not about being progressive. it's about right. at least david is honest enough to admit that his analysis is based in part of the fact he thinks the economic crisis is not as bad as they claim. but you? you want to pretend that the historical analysis by progressive economists is a lie and that theya re not progressive economists. so no- id ont want to argue with someone like that .

[ Parent ]
Yes, his analyisis (4.00 / 1)
is false, and you have not proven otherwise.  Maybe your smelling is off.

[ Parent ]
Wait, you disagreed with Sirota for once? (0.00 / 0)
Seriously, point me to a conversation where you agreed with his criticism of Obama?  Talk about knee-jerk loyalty.

[ Parent ]
Do you think? (0.00 / 0)
Do you honestly thing he's responding exclusively to the bit about windfall taxes? Seems like a bigger point about what's been going on for about the past month, as the left collectively tries to figure out how/if/when to push back on BO.

Me | My Work | Future Majority

[ Parent ]
He isn't comparing Obama to Kim Jong-il. (4.00 / 1)
He is comparing Obama's fan club to Kim Jong-il's followers.  David supports Obama.  He's only said it a zillion times.  What he and many others don't support is the blind and unquestioning loyalty that some of his followers have pledged and demand from others.  If they need to get hit by the truck before they can surmise they are in the way, too bad for them.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
I generally agree with the points you raise (4.00 / 12)
It is good advice to re-read the posts, as you suggest.

But, I think your language is sometimes inflammatory. Case in point: the "Dear Leader" phrase. If you insist on pouring that gasoline on the flames, don't complain when you get burned.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


I agree. (4.00 / 5)
I usually agree with David and think he is a vital voice in the progressive movement, but think his rhetoric is sensationalistic without needing to be-- his arguments and intellect are strong enough to stand on their own without the glib or snide tone.  

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

[ Parent ]
"a vital voice"? Wouldn't "vitriolic" be more to the point? :D (0.00 / 0)
Only joking!

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (4.00 / 9)
The phrase has no function other than to be inflammatory. It's really too bad Sirota has this martyr complex or whatever that leads him to compulsively piss people off for no reason, then when he gets the reaction he provoked, to whine about being attacked. It's a wingnut meme about a guy who isn't even president yet.

Sirota seems terrified that somebody will cut Obama a little slack for a while, or wait and see what he'll do. Or just trust that his instincts are basically OK until he definitively proves otherwise. Sirota sometimes makes useful points that would be worth discussing, but the language and the attitude create a minefield that just ain't worth winding through. I get a strong sense of a hidden agenda with Sirota. If he's not willing to be open about what it is, all he's inviting is a bunch of psychobabble about his personal demons, which is of no interest at all.


[ Parent ]
Nah (3.33 / 6)
It's called rhetoric. What good would a blog post be if it didn't provoke?

And what's the with this concern for the fragile sensibilities of a few Obama supporters.


[ Parent ]
Now you are just spewing sewage (4.00 / 4)
You can't be serious with that.

There are many ways to "provoke". What I am repelled by, and I am not alone in this, is the Fox-ization of Sirota's approach at this point, and yours, Mizner.

This site ought to be better than that.  


[ Parent ]
Let me clarify (4.00 / 8)
Its not so much the provocation that gets me, its the whining about it when others play the same game.

That said, based on the posts David suggests we re-read, he knows very well what will come of using the "Dear Leader" phrase: more name calling.  How does that help?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 4)
Well I'd like to clone Sirota and extract his martyr complex.

[ Parent ]
No it isn't. (4.00 / 4)
It's called stupid name calling. Rhetoric is, at some level, based on reality and logic. When Sirota gets into his attack-0bama mode it's just straw men and made-up generalizations. I have yet to see three good examples of what Sirota (and you) claim is this pervasive cultural phenomenon. See, the thing is, when supposed Dems and liberals spin frantically to tar Obama supporters as beings who are behaving in some way that partisans never did before, and when there's not a jot of evidence for this new terror, the flags go up -- like it or not. If you and he really don't get that, well, some of us will just get in the habit of skipping your posts.

[ Parent ]
But David (4.00 / 3)
Do you feel that your freedom of speech is being threatened?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

You know, this kind of commentary would have more credibility if (4.00 / 9)
you weren't largely picking fights with 40 or so powerless blog readers, but rather had some basis (in terms of your actions, or the risks you have undertaken) for comparing yourself to MLK, lynched black men, or murdered labor leaders.

And no, I'm not the one making this comparison, or personalizing this discussion -- you are.    


David's NOT Comparing Himself To "MLK, lynched black men, or murdered labor leaders" (4.00 / 8)
He's writing about attitudes towards movement figures who follow their principles.

Because you don't like your attitudes scrutinized in this way, you're trying to pretend that the focus of David's comparison was the movement figures. But that's obviously not the case.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
i know what his primary point was, which i said "would have more credibility," (0.00 / 0)
implying that i found it partially worthwhile.  what i'm reacting to is the way in which he rhetorically escalates the stakes in ways that are totally absurd, in the context of the disagreements that have been happening on this board about obama and the left.

and just in terms of his rhetoric, he is in fact aligning himself with martyred movement leaders.  so... yeah.


[ Parent ]
Personally seabrook (4.00 / 7)
I've been convinced. I apologize for all those times I called David Sirota a traitor because he has the nerve to question Obama, my fuhrer. I realize now, had I been alive at any point in the last hundred years, I, and people like me, would have caused destroyed MLK's dream and the New Deal.

Its just that when Obama says anything I blush and my legs get all wobbly. I just do whatever he says because he's so COOL. I know thats weird, coming from someone like me who didn't even support Obama until Edwards was out and who is still uncomfortable with the "Yes We Can" chant... but its not just that Obama is cool and has seduced me with his signifiers of cultural leftiness-- I also just love following leaders. And really enjoy taking orders and doing whatever the Establishment tells me.

But I realize now every time I, and all the other Open Left commenters, claimed to be offering honest arguments, disagreeing with David Sirota on the substance of his claims I was actually attacking him for being just like MLK. I don't really remember anyone attacking him but he has a book deal and appears on Fox News, so he couldn't be lying. Anyway, I'm sure another round or two of insulting you (you mindless Obama stormtrooper!) and you'll be convinced too.

...

Sigh. Sarcasm is the last refuge of those whose arguments have been ignored...


[ Parent ]
You're probably over-extrapolating (4.00 / 6)
What happens in comment threads isn't a sign of the country's psychology.

Isn't necessarily, that is.

The truth is, it's hard to know how deep it goes, the often close-to-blind support for Obama, the kneejerk criticism of criticism, etc.

It's clear that the support for Obama has largely rendered Daily Kos (its frontpagers) a non-thinking entity, but how big a loss is that, really?

I do worry that a lot of young people mistake Obama's politics and movement for some genuine manifestation of up-from-the-bottom--progressivism. (He may be shifting the center in exactly the wrong direction.)

Obama is in many ways a realization of Thomas Frank's warnings in the Conquest of Cool, a brand that kills dissent by stealing its symbols and slogans.


this last bit about Frank is interesting to think about.... (4.00 / 2)
and is, at least at first blush, moderately plausible.

on the other hand, thinking back to my high school years (1990s), i don't remember more than 2 or 3 percent of students embracing symbols and slogans of dissent (it was lonely on the left).  so the notion that obama is co-opting the symbols of some largescale youth movement, and thus neutralizing said movement, strikes me as anachronistic and wrong.

or, put another way, the left was dead when i went to high school.  obama, while he may be able to walk on water ;), probably can't resuscitate the dead in order to steal their power and thus kill them off a second time.

this is not to say that we don't need to push obama supporters to be supporters of a left agenda, rather than a presidential administration.  of course, i imagine that the administration itself, with its inevitable betrayals of the left, will help make this happen.  


[ Parent ]
Well, contrary to (4.00 / 4)
the certainty I sometimes feel (and perhaps project) I don't know what's going to happen, whether Obama will strengthen or weaken the left, whether he'll move left or right as his power grows, etc. But I have my suspicions, and they're not pretty.

Yeah, there wasn't a huge culture of dissent and leftist action but I do feel that given the dire state of the country and the world and the idealism of young people, something is happening. Maybe their interaction with the Obama campaign will be the mere beginning of activism and engagement, I dunno.

Certainly, Obama tapped into something with his post-modern, pragmatic, anti-ideological ideology but I feel that that tea is too weak. I'd like to see these people get inspired by Obama and then move off in funkier directions. I hope they don't feel that O's politics and method will change the world.

I feel better when I see Obama supporters who somewhat detached, who view him from a knowing ironic distance.


[ Parent ]
yeah, i hear where you are coming from. (4.00 / 2)
and it does seem true that obama's campaign condensed a lot of latent dissent, which could have been condensed in a more radical direction.  

[ Parent ]
That's the core difference. (4.00 / 2)
I would have liked a more left candidate. My first choice was Kucinich among the 8. But the primary is over, and so is the election. We got what we got. I bitched and moaned throughtout the general about Obama's strategies and positions, but came to see that he played it brilliantly against incredible odds. He turned out to be a much better strategist than I was. So I'm willing to wait and see how how his presidential strategy works out.

Why do you assume that "obama's campaign condensed a lot of latent dissent, which could have been condensed in a more radical direction"? If it could have been, why wasn't it? Why has it never, ever, been? The fact is, the "left" in this country is just a bunch of reactionaries without a cause. FDR (who wouldn't come close to passing Sirota's sniff test) told progressives that he agreed with them, now they should go an make him do it. No president is ever going to transform the country overnight when there is no real left to back him up. Until this year, the "far left" was pretty much defined by universal health care and getting out of Iraq, both of which are on the Obama agenda.
But of course for the Sirotas the issues were never really the issues, were they?


[ Parent ]
Well Bush won too (0.00 / 0)
does that mean the antiwar movement should have been quiet?  

[ Parent ]
Ya lost me there. (4.00 / 5)
I think an objective observer could fairly believe that Bush and the gang are genuinely heirs of the fascist worldview. I think to call Obama a fascist (which is in fact precisely what Sirota keeps doing) is insane. As noted, before the election, "progressive" was pretty much defined by universal health care, getting out of Iraq, employee free choice, massive push for alternative energy. Obama has so far stood by all those goals, yet Sirota and his acolytes compare him to Mussolini, Kim Jong Il, and the rest of the sorry line of brute dictators on the right.

To me this is hyperbole raised to the level of insanity. I happen to agree with Sirota about the excess profits tax, but it's a small and arguable issue. Sirota's rush to martyrdom over it inclines me to reexamine my own thinking on that issue.


[ Parent ]
Hilarious (0.00 / 0)
Didn't I predict the attacks on me as portraying myself as a "martyr?"

Dear Leader followers - you need to get some new material. At least make it interesting.


[ Parent ]
You've been called a compulsive martyr (4.00 / 3)
for some time now, so it wasn't hard to predict.

[ Parent ]
Yes, I have died for all progressives sins (0.00 / 0)
I have died for all progressives' sins. I am St. David, the Martyr, who has come now become Lucifer, for daring to question in - gasp! - "inflammatory" terms our Dear Leader.

I am here, as the martyr, to save us all.


[ Parent ]
Actually it was I, one of your (4.00 / 2)
bigger fans on this site. who said you present yourself as a martyr, suffering for us all so that progressivism might live.

It doesn't undercut your primary points, it's just extremely off-putting.

The good news is that you seem to finally be taking the advice of me and other supporters--that is, you seem to be more of a happy warrior.

Enjoy the debate, David, and don't pretend that your life is harder than anyone else's.


[ Parent ]
"you need to get some new material" (4.00 / 1)
David, look in a mirror.  That you recognized that most here would see you as using hyperbole ("treason"?  really?) doesn't mean that you weren't, in fact, doing so.

I'm glad you got your token "Obama does something I don't object to" post in for December with the Becerra thing last night.  Makes the rest of the month easier for you.

But, seriously?  These diaries would be a lot more interesting if you just focused on why you believed Obama was wrong, rather than criticizing others for not seeing things the same way you do.  Attacking commenters never leads anywhere productive.


[ Parent ]
Just to repost (0.00 / 0)
Hmm...I didn't say why I believed Obama was wrong? Wow...I guess it wasn't me who wrote this:

Between this move and the move to wait to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it seems like the Obama team is buying into the right-wing frame that raising any taxes - even those on the richest citizens and wealthiest corporations - is bad for the economy. Of course, that frame is debunked by history. And while sure, it's OK to rack up deficits so as to spend our way out of the economic crisis, it's sorta silly to ignore the tax moves that could be implemented to limit those deficits where possible.

Oh, and one last thing - if oil prices are down and oil industry profits are truly down, what's the harm in passing a windfall profits tax? Even if you buy the right-wing nonsense about a windfall profits tax "hurting the industry" or "hurting the economy" when it is applied, if there really are no windfall profits to tax, then it won't be applied.

That's what a windfall profits tax really is - a safety valve regulation against profiteering, and one that can raise needed revenues when profiteering occurs. If there is supposedly no profiteering occurring, then what's the supposed harm? There is none even if you ignore history and believe taxing the wealthy/big corporations automatically hurts an economy. That is, unless you are ready to go down another right-wing rathole and argue that a windfall profits tax will somehow prevent energy companies from more energy exploration. But, then, if you are that far out on the fringe, then I guess your not interested in any facts whatsoever...

Wow...I guess that wasn't me. That was the other David Sirota.  


[ Parent ]
Yes. That's good. (4.00 / 1)
Limit it to that stuff -- as I said, "if you just focused".  Diaries like this go nowhere.  They're flypaper for side arguments, and are a distraction from significant policy issues.

[ Parent ]
Fair enough (4.00 / 2)
OK...That's fair.

[ Parent ]
Thanks for your relatively (4.00 / 3)
reasoned responses to David.

Good arguments are hard to find nowadays on blogs.  Just rage and anger.  

You and David do have differences (on both issues and on degree of deference to Obama/supporters) and they are real.  When you argue civilly, it helps clarify issues for others.


[ Parent ]
Copied from the Rove playbook (1.60 / 5)
Have you noticed that Sirota's argument is a mirror image of the paranoid fears of the far right? The right says Obama is a secret Muslim Nazi Marxist (or something) and that his followers are robots ready to carry out his commands to stifle conservative speech, take away their guns, and persecute Christians. Sirota is just a tad more subtle. He says Obama may or may not be a fascist, but his follows are robots ready to carry out his commands, no matter how conservative. Then if you call him on it, he says, "I predicted you would disagree with me, therefore I am right." It's almost as if he studied how to divide and rule like a Republican.

Even better, he's won the hearts of the PUMAs who were upset during the primary because they claimed the people who liked Obama were using right-wing talking points.  


[ Parent ]
Authoritarianism (4.00 / 2)
Psychologist Robert Alteymeyer has a free, online book summarizing his work on  the "right wing authoritarian" personality type. He claims he never found enough left wing examples to study.

What you are seeing may be a resurgence of the type. They were more prevalent during the early part of the 20th Century when they could be seen in the utopian battles between the socialists, communists and anarchists. They returned during the 1930's-1950's as the "old" left which blindly followed the lead of Stalinist USSR.

One has to wonder how much these people really believe in the idea of democracy and how much they are just adherents to a different strong leader.

I think they are more visible in the blogosphere because a) the cost of entry is zero and b) the passionate speak up, but I don't think the are a significant faction in the liberal universe.

Of course Obama will be a disappointment to those hoping for the most radical type of change, but one has to question whether he could do more even if he were more bold given the power of the permanent government and the bubble the president is placed in.

Notice that the first thing that happened after his election was that he started getting the daily threat briefings from the CIA. If you are told only about "threats" from alleged enemies every day how soon will it be before you start to become paranoid yourself? The government doesn't even have a way to tell the president about other regular issues, only the military gets to plead its case daily.

If you want to understand the "RWA" mindset (even when applied to "liberals") have a look at Altemeyer's book at theAuthoritarians.com

Policies not Politics


This is not about Obama (4.00 / 7)
It's about whether your analysis is right or wrong. Can people disagree with you without their being cultist? Obama can be wrong. I argued Obama was absolutely wrong on FISA. I can see when he's wrong. I can see when he's probably right. Do you have the ability to look in the mirror to objectively see your own thought processes enough to realize when they are valid, and when not?

They cannot (4.00 / 2)
Heck, they can't even point out that it is not really possible to even get to Sirota's point because his officiousness and martyr complex gets in the way without being called cultists.

[ Parent ]
People only said (4.00 / 1)
People only said Obama was wrong on FISA because the netroots had pre-existing consensus that FISA was bad. And that was largely in reaction to the fact that Bush wanted it.

But every other questionable thing that has come up about Obama's choices, cabinet etc... where the netroots did not a pre-existing consensus, has been given a total pass.


[ Parent ]
really, because i thought we derailed brennan's nomination. nt. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Apparently not. (4.00 / 1)
But, hey, Obamaphile! Obamabot! Brown shirt!

Have you been won over yet, seabrook? Perhaps other names can be hurled at you. What do you say, Mizner and Sirota? More name-calling?


[ Parent ]
Never try to explain something (0.00 / 0)
to someone whose job depends on not understanding it.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe you should (4.00 / 1)
hurl some more 'far left', 'concern trolling' attacks at people that criticize Obama?

[ Parent ]
Good luck finding anywhere where... (4.00 / 2)
...I have done that. You won't. Not here. Not on Kos. Not on booman, not anywhere.

It is a convenient strawman you have assembled, but don't project it on me.


[ Parent ]
No, you'll (4.00 / 1)
No, you'll just reply with inane snark and 'applaud' people who do the attacking.


[ Parent ]
OR... (4.00 / 1)
...I might ask if there are better ways for Sirota et al to communicate with regard to the criticism.

But, yeah, same thing.


[ Parent ]
That's... (0.00 / 0)
That's not reflected in your track record. But I suppose self-deception is not new for Obama 'super fans'.

[ Parent ]
Straw. Meet. Man. (0.00 / 0)
Would be it be helpful if I called you a name in return? Is that the child-like behavior that you thrive on?

[ Parent ]
Once again... (3.00 / 4)
That's only because he was involved in Bushes torture regime. Once again, we had a pre-Obama consensus that he was bad news.

But Obama can appointment as many right-wing appointments as he wants as long as the netroots did not have a pre-determined consensus on them.

The only standard Obama 'superfans' have is: did they support Bush?

But Obama can appoint as many right militarists and right free-market types as long as they never been associated with the Bush whitehouse.

Its a terrible way to mesure Obama's choices.


[ Parent ]
well, that is one interpretation of why people respond as they do... (4.00 / 2)
although, couldn't the same be said for people like clinton, who voted for the war (which we all agree was bad)?  or gates, who was involved with the bush administration?  why didn't the left blogosphere get up in arms about these picks?  

look, i'm not defending people's interest or disinterest in protesting various picks, but i think the notion that these choices can be explained as simply as you are suggesting is misguided.  


[ Parent ]
Clinton (4.00 / 2)
Hillary Clinton was never deeply tied to Bush in the netroots. She always been associated with the DLC and Dinos etc...and in her case she was trashed relentlessly by the netroots since the primaries, but when her name was thrown around for SOS people in the netroots freaked and said it was just a way 'keeping her under control'. Once again, Obama was excused.

In fact, had Hillary made the same appointements that Obama is making, the netoorts would have trashed the appointments and trashed her as a right-wing DLC hack.

But with Obama its wonderful pragmatism!


[ Parent ]
And (0.00 / 1)
gates? Cough up hypocrite.

[ Parent ]
your problem is you think I am a sheep like yourself (4.00 / 1)
I do not care what some random strangers thought if FISA. I came that position by doing my own research and coming to my own conclusion. I did the same with the diary that brought David to post this rant. I disagreed with him because I felt he was factually wrong as to the economics of the time. That if wea re facing a depression era moment- that we should learn from the past. one of those lessons was that you don't raist taxes in the middle of the events moving towards a depression. You use heavy deficit spending . You use a lo tof the techniques outlined by Krugman and others under the Kensyian model of economics. Now, you may disagree with that, but it's not about Obama. Obama is the vessel for a positon I already hold. It's insulting to assume anyone who dissagrees with you is doing so because they are acting like a cult. Respect the fact that I can and do think for myself, and when you decide that you want to not provide knee jerk responses, I will do the same with you.

[ Parent ]
Again, its a non-sequitur (4.00 / 4)
Obama said he's not for the windfall profits tax because oil prices are low. If oil prices are low, then the tax doesn't come into effect - and thus, doesn't "raise taxes in a recession."

So, your entire argument falls apart based on the very rationale Obama used to go back on his promise.


[ Parent ]
You do not handle disagree ment well (0.00 / 0)
First of all you could have dealt with the disagreement within the confines of the diary rather than calling anyone who disagrees with you essentially a mindless follower on the front page. Can you handle people disagreeing with you without resorting to such tactics?

The reality is about  what is the basic economic approach to take. Whether raising taxes, even symbolically (as you see it because we can not know if it will be symbolic), is a good idea in the middle of a depression era economy. Let me ask you this question- would you want to tax if it were not symbolic? What if you can not be sure if it's not just symbolic.? What then? Do you still find it okay to raise the taxes ?  


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 5)
I've said that before, and I said it in the very diary you originally commented in. I'll say it again, in case you didn't read: There is little historical evidence to suggest raising taxes on the super-rich or the wealthiest corporations hurts the economy. It is a right-wing theory, debunked by recent history when Bill Clinton raised taxes in an economic crisis and the economy recovered.

[ Parent ]
How exactly could we have much history since there has only been (4.00 / 1)
one depression in recent US history that resembles this one? Are you saying that the recession of 1992 -3 was somehow similar to what we face now? So while whatyou just wrote may work for your acolyted, my problem with your posts is that when I put meat to the bones, the arguments do not make much sense.

You seem to think that just because you say something that makes it true. The core problem as you admitted in the other thread, and has been made clear by people like Matt Stoller here is that you do not believe this economic situation is as severe as people say it is, and therefore, all anlaysis follow from that does it not?

You have told me your beliefs. Now, since you never asked, here is mine:

I think where America (and the world) is , based on what I am reading, is on an economic edge that can be either a depression or a recession depending on how we act in the near term. We can go either way and it wouldn't take much to push us into a depression. Even a seemingly symbolic tax hike.

We could go over the cliff. We could not. We have wasted several weeks and months on idealogical beliefs getting in the way of Kenysian economic strategies. Now, you want to replace it with idealogical believes from our side.

I tend to believe Krugman and others are right.

More importantly, however, is that your claim that we are all just Obamabots who disagree with you because some how Obama blinds us to the truth is in fact wrong.

I am basing it on a fundamental disagreement about where we are right now. Now, maybe if enough economists say that this will not have an impact even potentially then i will be more inclined to believe their evidence, but you don't provide any other than anlogies that fail on their face. I mean- seriously- the CLintons from the 1990s? Really? Is that where you see our economy?


[ Parent ]
Where is your concrete evidence? (4.00 / 3)
You offer no concrete evidence that raising taxes on the wealthy or on large corporations has hurt our economy. None. Not a single shred of actual substantive evidence.

Your "evidence" is supposition - that economists theorize that it would not be a good idea. I've offered facts - you may not think they are perfect facts, and they aren't because times certainly have changed. But I am making an argument grounded in undeniable fact. You are making an argument based wholly and completely on theory, and on theory from a discipline - academic economists - who (including Krugman) told us free trade and deregulation were awesome and would build a sustainable economy.

Now, I try to live in the reality-based world. I deal in facts. You can choose to not deal in facts - to merely decide that "if enough economists say" something then it's good with you - but I'll choose the reality-based world, thank you very much.


[ Parent ]
Reality? (0.00 / 0)
David:

Come on. This crap works on the clueless, but please. Your analysis is not based on reality. It's based on idealogical speculation of what you hope to be the case. You don't know that it will not harm us. You are right I can not conclusively prove that it will, but that's kind of besides the point since as I have said if we are on an edge between deep recession or depression- the issue is which of us has the burden. I know from the great depression that taxes hurt. That's my general factually basis of my assertion. What "facts" do you offer in return. The patently pathetic comparsion to the 1990s. I mean- seriously? You the 1990s. Areyou stuck in that decade?  You just compared the recession of 1990s to what's happening right now which may lead to depression similar to the 1930s. I suppose they are facts in the sense that an apple is like an orange in that they are both fruit. Or perhaps, I should say a whole truck full of rotten apples is the same as one orange. My facts are the great depression and knowing the consequences of that depression I am not willing, unlike yourself, to take a chance on what is speculation on your part. You think your speculation is justified because as you have amditted- you do not believe this situation is as a bad as they say. Thus, it's not facts that's drives you. So stop throwing out useless phrases that have nothing to actually do with what you and your acolytes here are doing.


[ Parent ]
I happen to agree (4.00 / 1)
about the profits tax. But what might or might no happen because of it or its absence in not a fact, it's a speculation, and it's no more "reality based" than the view of those who disagree. I suspect that Obama's thinking is that he won't get support for a tax to nowhere and it's strategically better to wait for the public outrage when gas prices inevitably rocket again. During the campaign he turned out to be a much better strategist than me, so I'm quite willing to let him do it his way. You seem to forget he's not even president yet, but you're already hysterically trying to micromanage his administration. To me, that makes your motives suspect and your credibility, sadly, greatly diminished.

[ Parent ]
The speculation in the middle of an economic crisis is where I draw the line (0.00 / 0)
As I keep saying the core problem of this site is that they do not believe the crisis is as severe as being reported. Thus, they are willing to take chances on their speculation that I am not willing to take until the crisis has passed. In a year or so when we have gotten the economy out of this mess, then windfall tax may make sense. But not right now. The issue I have is that they question the "progressiveness" of anyone who does not accept their formulation of the facts we do know.  

[ Parent ]
But everything is speculation (4.00 / 2)
By your definition, we should do nothing - change nothing - because everything in this situation is speculation.

It seems to me that you are being ideological in saying we shouldn't do X but should do Y based on economists theories, rather than being less ideological and saying, hey maybe we should do X because X (ie. raising taxes on the wealthy) didn't hurt when we did it last time during an economic crisis.


[ Parent ]
Well, if you want to argue from history, (0.00 / 0)
the fact is that Obama turned out to be a better political strategist than me or you. This is not about raising taxes (which I'm all for) because there is nothing for this tax to tax at the moment. I'm willing to wait and see what he does when the rather trivial subject arises, since he hasn't even moved into the White House yet or submitted a single bill to Congress. I don't know what Obama will do if there are actually excess profits to tax again. Neither do you, but you try to sell the idea that Obama has betrayed us and anyone who isn't hysterical is a fascist or a fool. Which, sincerely, is very disappointing.

[ Parent ]
no everything is not just speculation (0.00 / 0)
speculation has a value based on context. Some speculation is more right than other based on facts. Some things are more probably true than others. I am weighing the evidence as best I can rather than proceeding along the lines that i am certain.

The burden is on you to prove that a tax hike will not hurt right now given the circumstance. The burden is not on me to prove it will. Why? Because of the economic circumstances.

Your comparing this to the clinton recession indicates to me you do not appreciate the context, and therefore your speculation seems further from reality. This is why one of the first questions I asked you in the prior diary was whether or not you believe the economic situation is as bad as they describe? Do you believe the data? You said that you do partially believe its bad, but not as bad as they say. There is where you went wrong for me. The minute you deny reality about what's happening economically is where you lose someone like me.

by the same token , my comparison is based on what actually is  event thats are happening that economically resemble most closely what happened in the 1930s. That happened in Japan in the last decade but on a smaller scale.

That we are on edge between a deep recession and a depression is not merely theory. It's being born out by economic data. Thus, I am taking my cue from those who are arguing from the position closest to where it seems we are right now- namely on that edge.

If someone is going to argue like we are not on  that edge- I am going to thinkt hey are less connected to economic reality and the suffering that their speculation may unduly cause. I don't question whether whatyousay isn't a good idea. i question if its a good idea right now. I don't know. I don't want to take that chance given the circumstances.

No one is saying never to the windfall tax. I am saying based on where we are right now I would be really worried trying a move such as this based on speculation that it may not hurt our chances at a recovery.

The best you can argue is that it may not. You can not say with a high degree of certainty that you are right because your historical analogies are off. And that, is the diffeernce between an idealogue and a pragmatic thinker. Its not that I do not agree substantively. It's that I will weigh the priorities. The priority right now to me is making sure we do not fall into a depression. I m not willing to risk that on speculation driven by incorrect anlogies

that's not a progressive versus non progressive thing. its an idealogue versus prove it thing.


[ Parent ]
A depression is inevitable (0.00 / 0)
a Dark Age is preventable, however.

[ Parent ]
You're completely missing ... (4.00 / 3)
You're completely missing the point.  People who criticize Obama for his appointments and policy should not be jumped on as 'concern trolls' or 'far left' or 'fringe'.

That's the problem the netroots is having and citing FISA to dispel my argument is not legitimate because opposition to FISA existed before Obama.

But every decision that Obama has made that the netroots would have normally opposed is now going unopposed. Many in can't see the intellectual dishonesty and inconsistency they're using with regard to Obama.

The netroots almost always go easy on him.


[ Parent ]
I take issue with this... (4.00 / 1)
But every decision that Obama has made that the netroots would have normally opposed is now going unopposed. Many in can't see the intellectual dishonesty and inconsistency they're using with regard to Obama.

Tell that to Treasury Secretary Larry Summers and CIA Chief John Brennan.


[ Parent ]
lol (4.00 / 1)
A) Laurence Summers was appointed to promeninent economic role in the cabinet. The netroots hardly barely said a word against him.

B) John Brennan was only opposed because he was seen as a Bush cronies but all the other hawks and right-winger that are clean of deep Bush associations and being appointed with barely a peep from the netroots.


[ Parent ]
You're not a deep thinker, are you? (0.00 / 0)
Maybe it was because of the policies Brennan endorsed under Bush instead of his associations with Bush? It's not like we hate Bush because he's a republican, you know...

[ Parent ]
Sigh: Again? (4.00 / 12)
I'm continually amazed at how often insightful front-pagers like David persist in raising this straw-man attack against their own readers.

I've yet to see anyone here suggesting that it is wrong to question our "Dear Leader."  The fact that many happen to disagree with the substance of the criticism does not mean that people are suffering from blind devotion to Obama.  It merely means that they disagree with the merits of the criticisms.

It would be nice if we readers could be given just a little bit of credit.


Well, no one (4.00 / 6)
(except for a few commenters I've seen) would baldly say that it's wrong to criticize. It's (somewhat) more subtle than that.

They portray you as a purity troll, a joykill, a pedant, a unhinged obsessive if you criticize, even factually, Obama, unless you do so in he most gentle, but on- the-other-hand terms.

Just yesterday I was blasted ("he's off the rails" "purity troll") etc for simply pointing out that his choice to be SOS a hawk.

I--unlike David, whose skin is far too thin--enjoy the debate.

Worse, in any case than the smearing of Obama's critics, is the bending and outright denial of info that doesn't fit their preconceived notions.


[ Parent ]
We must be reading different things (4.00 / 2)
Seriously.  I don't even see the type of criticism you mention (i.e., calling people "purity-trolls" are the like.)  All I see is the front-pagers attacking unnamed posters for being so in awe of Obama that they are unwilling to express independent thought.

But it is entirely possible that I literally am not reading the comments that you and David find objectionable.  Admittedly, I don't read every single word posted on this forum (though I do read a lot).


[ Parent ]
You are such a (4.00 / 2)
Democrat, David!!!  And being a Democrat means you're a purity troll.  Haven't you gotten the memo?  
Partisan!!  :-)

You are right, though.  I've seen it with you and directed at me for the softest of criticism on issues.  


[ Parent ]
actually saying "I am on th eonly way to be a Democrat" (4.00 / 1)
is the definition of purity. If you aren't exactly like my thinkign then you are an obamabot or some other such name. But hey, someone gave you a 4 for essentially following the leader of this blog, so that's original.

[ Parent ]
WTF? (4.00 / 3)
Look your personal attack was uncalled for.  You do not really know me.  I don't follow David.  I pick and choose things.  I happen to agree with you about the windfall profits tax.  I side with David, although not all his rhetoric, on the need to be critical of Obama as anyone else.

I stated my views in my diary on Daily Kos last week:

 http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Whatever Obama does is okay?  This is the netroots?
by TomP [Subscribe] [Edit Diary]
Wed Nov 26, 2008 at 05:40:50 AM PST

I keep seeing this argument and it blows my mind.  Yes, it's early.  No, people should not panic.  He's made centrist and conservative (Gates) choices in appointments so far.  It's not the end of the world, but it's fair to criticize these choices.  I really do not like Gates.

I keep seeing this argument and it blows my mind.  Yes, it's early.  No, people should not panic.  He's made centrist and conservative (Gates) choices in appointments so far.  It's not the end of the world, but it's fair to criticize these choices.  I really do not like Gates.

U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates warned that limiting funding for the United States efforts in Iraq could lead to more bloodshed in the Middle Eastern country. In an interview with radio talk show host Laura Ingraham, he said it might even lead to ethnic cleansing in Bahgdad and elsewhere in Iraq.

Gates' comment followed a proposal from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to end most spending on the Iraq war in 2008, limiting it to targeted operations against al Qaeda, training for Iraqi troops and U.S. force protection.

Friday, April 6, 2007

We want this guy?  We're happy because Obama picked him, because whatever Obama does leads to the promised land of progressivism?

Give me a break.  I know this diary will piss off some, but that's the price of pluralism here.  

My style is different from David, just as it is from Markos.  Both often seek to inflame to drive traffic and create heated discussions.  But as my diary indicates, I agree with David on the need not to refrain from critcism.   I also agree with David M and S on labor/trade/economic issues.  I consider myself to be on the left of the Democratic Party.

If you're bruh from MyDD, I have always enjoyed your comments, but I don't see why you are now into personal attacks.  


[ Parent ]
here's your post (0.00 / 0)
" You are such a  (4.00 / 2)
Democrat, David!!!  And being a Democrat means you're a purity troll.  Haven't you gotten the memo?  
Partisan!!  :-)"

Except no one is saying what Mixner and others have wrote. I am specifically criticizing Sirota on specific things he is saying. Rather than  responding to that critique he broadsides with diaries like this that Mixner is now defending. Rather than defending that behavior or acting like I am "personally attacking" you for your defensive circling the wagon, why not realize who is inflaming whom with your choice of rhectoric.


[ Parent ]
I was joking with David. (4.00 / 2)
I know David rather well and was just playing around.  You seem to be projecting all sorts of crap of your own into a little comment.  I find your argument ridiculous.

Go fight with someone who cares.   You are lost.


[ Parent ]
I dont care ifyou people are buddies (4.00 / 1)
I was in the middle of a conversation online in which you seem to take the side of those who were acting like I and others can not criticize their position. Perhaps if you were not so busy trying to be buddies you would get that point. I am not picking a fight with you. vbut if you want to be buddy buddy there are better places to do it , such as personal email, than in the middle of a group of people being accused as David Sirota and his proxy David mixner did here. You people love talking accountability,b ut not taking it. I don't care how many 4s you are given. The fact is you did take a side here, and now when called on it, you were just joking. Fine, but then don't be surprised if some of us do not like being attacked by your friends.

[ Parent ]
David Mizner is not his proxy. (0.00 / 0)
You take yourself too seriously.

Whatever.  


[ Parent ]
Mixner's comments above speak for themselves (0.00 / 0)
Sirota called those who disagreed brownshirts or fascists. Mixner had no problem with that and in fact participates above. If you are not willing to admit to  context of the diary, then that sums up a lot.

And, yes, I take being called names merely for disagreeing  on a so-called progressive site seriously. I expect this from Fox News. Not a site that's supposedly progressive.

Learn to respect other people, even if they are not your friends.


[ Parent ]
Starting as a misunderstanding, your reaction adds insult to injury. (0.00 / 0)
Well, I didn't get it that you were joking, too. And I do think your reaction now is quite over the top.  

[ Parent ]
Take note of behavior along this thread (4.00 / 6)
If you will note along the thread- who are the cult of personality types here. who are basing their judgment on emotional concepts of "movement" rather than policies being discussed?

Nearly to the  poster, it's people running here to defend you because they like you or consider this a movement rather than because theya re discussing the issues and whether or not we agree or disagree on the issues based on the facts availalbe.

This is in fact where this site is headed- a cult of personality movement in which you are right because you say something is wrong about Obama. That's emotion driven- not expertise driven analysis.


Bull (4.00 / 3)
That's Bull. Everyone has been critizing Obama on appointments, records and policy.  Its been Obama "superfans' that have been calling people 'far left','concern trolls' and other non sense to shut people up.

[ Parent ]
I hope making stuff up makes you feel better (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Keep it up, David. (4.00 / 2)
I need something to balance my time at DailyKos and restore balance to my psyche.

Though lose the "Dear Leader" talk.  It does suggest Kim, and he's a murdering dictator.


your post is intellectual not sound (4.00 / 2)
you are essentially assuming that the people here disagreeng with david are the people you do not like at daily kos. and odd position to take, and is only doing what sirota claims he is against.

[ Parent ]
No, no. (0.00 / 0)
I didn't mean that at all.  I just meant that I appreciate criticism of Obama from the left.  I wasn't talking about the comments.  But, if I were, I find the disagreement here refreshing, too.

[ Parent ]
Shorter David Sirota (4.00 / 7)
If you have the temerity to express your disagreement with me, you're a brownshirt and a threat the very fabric of our democracy.

Protip: if you compare people to Nazis, authoritarians, call them names, etc. you and expect the same in kind.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!


Yup (2.00 / 4)
Bill O'Reilly would recognize Sirota's approach. And approve.

[ Parent ]
Woah now... (4.00 / 2)
I know David's directed some nasty names at commenters, but comparing him to Bill-O is beyond the pale.

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
"Brown-shirts" (4.00 / 2)
Needless, dehumanizing, officious.

I recognize that approach from the Fox News and Rush-radio empire. They do it there for the apparent same reasons that Sirota is doing it here.

I would challenge him to reflect on that. That approach is no more persuasive and looks no better coming from him than it does coming from the O'Reilly/Limbaugh Fox media right.


[ Parent ]
Internet does not transmit sarcasm (0.00 / 0)
I was making a joke (i.e. that comparing somebody to Bill O'Reilly is even worse than comparing them to Nazis).

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

[ Parent ]
Sorry, fwiffo (0.00 / 0)
I am horrible at getting the typed sarcasm, sometimes.

[ Parent ]
Heh (4.00 / 1)
Yea, I head david likes to show up there and advertise his fox visits here. My guess is they are getting along with the fox crew and learning from each other

[ Parent ]
It is what it is (4.00 / 2)
and, frankly, nothing more.


Without any evidence (4.00 / 3)
I'm going to take any suggestions of a mass psychological change with a large grain of salt.  The idea that a society's current generation is in moral or psychological decline, thus spelling the society's future demise or ills, has been a popular trope since at least Roman times and was equally ephemeral back then.  

The argument is all the more overstated due to the fact that Obama was only elected a month ago and is not yet the President.  As such, it is unclear whether or not he is a more trustworthy steward of progressive ideals than those currently criticizing him on a routine basis.  However, since very few members of the blogosphere have any experience governing, it is also unclear why such bloggers would automatically be more trustworthy than members of the soon-to-be Obama Administration.    

My two cents are that some criticisms are justified at this point and that some of them have been premature and/or immature.  Time will tell whose approach is best.


That's the whole point (2.00 / 6)
"A trustworthy steward" - that's the very mass psychology I'm talking about. Trust the Dear Leader.  

[ Parent ]
oh my god. this is the sentence you are referring to: (4.00 / 7)
As such, it is unclear whether or not he is a more trustworthy steward of progressive ideals than those currently criticizing him on a routine basis.

um... am i missing something?


[ Parent ]
That's not exactly the way I see it. (4.00 / 1)
My point is that there seems to be a competition here and other places by bloggers to set themselves up as the "Dear Leader," in your phraseology.  Or, in other words, to portray the - incoming - Administration officials as the new "insiders" and to portray everyone else as the "outsiders" railing against the "insiders."  

Obviously that is an oversimplification and the relationship will be both cooperative and adversarial in varying degrees, but what I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with a preference to see what the new Administration does before deciding whom we trust more on the issues that affect us, and to question whether those who advocate for or against certain policies and politicians know what they are talking about.  


[ Parent ]
No you are right (4.00 / 3)
This is at least on this site a concerted effort to position Obama has a kinder gentler Bush or DLCer and anyone who disagrees as an Obama bot, not a real progressive, etc. Some of this is I think to gain more attention. It's like the lieberman effect except from progressives. I have been coming to this conclusion recently. I still hope I am wrong. They are tyring to position themselves as the loyal progressive opposition so anything he does is per se bad because It's Obama so of course its bad.

[ Parent ]
Republicans and Progressives (4.00 / 1)
both seem to me, to need to do exactly the same thing.

It's time to examine all this angst and "evidence" of head-talk.

The "center" is the "center" because it's not confused by ideology.

We see a campaign nonsense meme for what it is:  Politics as usual.  "Hillary really just drank tea.  She's not really equipped."

It's the ideologues that get whipped around when then she's later chosen as the obvious SoS.  Why?

You're the only nitwits who bought the "Bosnia story/tea story!"  Omigosh!

I don't feel one bit sorry for those surprised or trying hard now to scramble about his choice for SoS.

You were always in a minority believing that this campaign meme was real.

Real America knew better.

PhD or not.


Obama is much more aware of (4.00 / 3)
his own fallibity than some of his netroots supporters.

You also touched on an issue that affect this when you descibed the Obama campaign as a celebrity movement, or soemthing like that, the other day.  Some supporters are tied to Obama not becuase of issues, but because of projection into a charismatic figure.  I first saw this in May 2007 when, as an Edwards supporter, I found that criticism of Obama on issues was met be a few with a rage suggestive of a severe internal issues.  In effect, I had to be silenced for the projection to continue.  Obama had to be prefect and no criticism was alolowed, for it there was criticism, the fantasy a few projected on Obama would break down in their own minds.  Now this is only a few and on the blogs.  Most Obama supporters even in the priamry wars were more politically mature.

Interesting diary, David.  That this exists in the netroots is fascinating and calls into question a few of the premises of the progressive blogosphere.
 


No straw man (3.00 / 4)
Have you been driven from web site to web site because of the attacks of Obama followers during the primaries?  Labelled racist?  

Do you feel as comfortable ctiticizing Obama in a public place as you would criticizing George W. Bush?  

Do you notice that on Fox, for example, it is perfectly "normal" to attack Democrats but people like O'Reilly feel like they have to say they hope Obama succeeds.  They never felt the need to say that with Bill Clinton.

Most of this, as noted above, seems to come from some of the followers although it is quite possible that it is deliberately encouraged as a political tactic.

Or not.

I am sure that David Sirota has felt the sting of these attacks and wondered, at least a little, whether caution is the better part of valor.  The subject is legitimate.  How do we push things to the left and away from the grasping hands of the corporates and Broderites?  How is it donw without "criticism."


There is a small group (4.00 / 4)
who coordinates attacks on David S. as part of their self appointed role as moderators of Daily Kos.  They are tolerated by not directed by Dkos FPers. All the main cites are here:

http://openleft.com/showCommen...

This is the website:

http://ugog.soapblox.net/

This appears to be the leader.  In the comments, you will see discussions of troll rating expeditions into Sirota  diaries.  

http://ugog.soapblox.net/userD...

David has been sigled out to be attacked and they converge on Dkos diaries.  Not everyone who attacks David is part of this, though.

Many, like Adam B and others, disagree on issues and on style.  They are not part of the group.  David does bring some on himself with harsh rhetoric.

It's okay to disagree vehemently with him.  But there have been attacks on him.



[ Parent ]
Ugh (4.00 / 2)
That's some disturbing crap. Is that what factionalism is like on other big blogs? No wonder Sirota is paranoid.  

[ Parent ]
It is disturbing (4.00 / 2)
And that part of the blogosphere confuses me, as I even wonder who has time to engage in that kind of behavior.


[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm just some hippy-dippy liberal (0.00 / 0)
but I really thought for a while there that progressive blogs were going to be a positive force. Instead it's all about intrigue and dividing people up into traitors and Obamabots.  

[ Parent ]
It's part of the reason. (4.00 / 2)
This group is not entirely political.  But they target Sirota.  Then he gets attacked by others who are very hard core Obama supporters.  Then soem others are just critcial.  Some remember David from promary wars.

Much of Sirota's argument is related to his reception on Daily Kos from some folks.  He also has supporters and neutrals there.

And David does create some of it.  "Brownshirts" is quite loaded.

So it's a whole mix of things.  

The core point on which I agree with David is that it is not only okay, but essential to criticize Obama from the left when appropriate.  But we also should praise Obama when agree, and I see David S. doing that.


[ Parent ]
That's substantive (4.00 / 3)
The core point on which I agree with David is that it is not only okay, but essential to criticize Obama from the left when appropriate.

Of course. And there probably will be lots to criticize as well as lots to like after January 20th. But when we disagree about what the right policy is, we need to be honest about the facts. What really disturbs me here is that Sirota seems to be deliberating distorting events and statements and using hyperbolic rhetoric in order to polarize people.  


[ Parent ]
Then call him on it. (4.00 / 2)
That's fair and legitimate criticism.  It makes for a real discussion.

[ Parent ]
Ridiculous (4.00 / 1)
"deliberating distorting events and statements"

Please point me to a post where I have done that. How is pointing out a Reuters story about Obama not following through on a windfall profits tax "deliberately distorting events and statements."

Screaming "liar" is the last refuge of liars - liars who cannot accept the reality about their Dear Leader.


[ Parent ]
Sock pupperts are a serious problem... (0.00 / 0)
and this kind of discussions happens at Wikipedia regularly. No surprise that this spreads to blogs now, especially to communities like DKos. And while those folks are a bit paranoid about "Dave" (that's Sirota?), all they did was making a background check with public informations found in the intertubes. No big deal, imho.

[ Parent ]
Different Dave in (0.00 / 0)
that thread that they are talking about.  Not David S.  Sirota is not the main focus of that group.

No, it's not okay.  There have been outings of people and group, gang intimidation.  Your analogy with wikiperidia does not fit.

In addition, this is a self appointed group who imposes its will on others.  It is the antithesis of progressivism.

 


[ Parent ]
Well, maybe it's just your example that's not so good. (0.00 / 0)
After all, Lee Rockwell used his real name, and published personal information in the internet. I can't really see what harm was done by some guys checking this readily avialable background info. What real outings do you refer too, any examples?

Oh, and I don't see what should be wrong with my comparison of Wikipedia and DKos. Both are online comminities and share some problems. Wikipedia is much more civil, of course, but yet...


[ Parent ]
Look, I don't want to be in the middle of (0.00 / 0)
their wars.  The links in my comment lead to a diary.  Read the 500 comments and there is evidence.

I just oppose bullying tactics on blogs.  These tactics are akin to brownshirts, even if they are not fascists.  The tactics are done to intimidate and to persoanlly destroy.  In one comment on that diary, there is a copy of a discussion in which one perosn proposes to send emails to teh employer of an an opponent regarding use of Dkos during work hours, seeking to get that person fired.  I don't know if it was ever followed through.

Some of these acts can be legally actionable.  People may think they can anything they want on blogs, but there are both ethical aspects and legal aspects to what they do.

It's not my war, but i do oppose these tactics.  Im sure you don't think trying to persoanlly harm blog enemies is appropriate.  

But my original point is that David Sirota was the target of coordinated personal attacks by a group that hangs out on Daily Kos.  It is part explanation of his acts.


[ Parent ]
"Read the 500 comments"??? (0.00 / 0)
Are you serious? I've read the diary, ok. No evidence of bullying or imposing one's will in it. You mean, the evidence is is one of the 500 (!) comments? Well, then, can't you provide a quote, an excerpt, or a direct link? After all, it's not me who is crying wolf here, you are. Is it too much to ask you for evidence for your statements???

[ Parent ]
I've read about 50 now. No evidence in them. Just wild accusations. (0.00 / 0)
Well, this DKos thread supports my worst prejudices about that site. Wild accusations, based on NO evidence at all, idiotic misunderstandings and misinterpretations, and a general attitude of assuming the worst about the fellow commenter. No, thanks. That's exactly why I haven't used my DKos login for years, and why I only go there if someone else provides a link and gives good reason to look at that mess. What a waste of time.

[ Parent ]
Hmm, maybe you should just provide more details.. (0.00 / 0)
and then I would be able to see your point. For instance, this statement:
"a self appointed group who imposes its will on others"
Well, where is the evidence? What I found at the only one of your links that still leads to content is some guys discussing if another user is really who he pretends to be. Obviously they share some concerns about sock puppeting by a guy called "Dave". Really, what's so shocking about that? They may be a bit paranoid, I dunno, but they don't sound unresonable. And there isn't any conspiracy at work to impose their will on others, not afaics. So, could you pls explain your reasons for the statment above?

Also, as already explained, I can't see what's so shocking about the Lee Rockwell example. That guy used his real name, and there is somepersonal information to be found in the internet. What's your point with telling this story? Do you wanna say that one is not allowed to look for further informations in the internet? Or is it just not right to mention these public informations publicly? Or is the critical point here that it's not "nice" to share this informations at another website, and it should be done openly, in the presence of that user, as embarassing as this may be? Or do you seriously think that the identity of any user should never be questioned, and those guys who exposed the Lee Siegel kabuki theatre were misguided? Really, honestly, I don't get your point! Pls explain.


[ Parent ]
I don't have time to get involved in that (0.00 / 0)
war.  if you wish, there are links in my comment.  Read through 500 comments and make up your own mind.  Their are multiple aspects to their wars and a long history.

Yes, I think that outing individuals on blogs is immoral.

If you don't, then I think we havw a fundamental disagreement.

I oppose gamng intimidation in attempts to shut down political discussion, especially when it involvees attempts to personally harm people in their employment or personal lives.  It seems to be a simple concept.  basic decency.

I don't who or what Lee Siegel is.


[ Parent ]
"outing"??? That guy used his real name! He can't be outed! (0.00 / 0)
He is already out in the open. And if you use your real name, people can (and certainly will) sometimes look for additional information about you. That's obvious. If you don't want that, use a pseaudonym.  

Sry, but really, your statement doesn't make any sense in this context. Yes, generally, without urgent necessity, outing individuals is immoral. But, so what? That's not the problem here at all.


[ Parent ]
I don't really know what (0.00 / 0)
we are talking about anymore.

What guy used his real name?

It doesn't matter.

I don't think you see the problem and further discussion is useless.  If you are involved in their fights, and seem to know more about details than I do, have at it.


[ Parent ]
That's the problem with only replying without seeing the whole thread (0.00 / 0)
This often results in getting confused about what was already said, happems to me, too, very often. Well, I was referring to the example you cited, Glenn, uh, no, George Gould (not Lee Rockwell, that was my mistake). He used hois real name, so any argument about outing someone is pointless.

" If you are involved in their fights, and seem to know more about details than I do, have at it."
me? YOU started this distraction, remember? And after I looked into the "evidence" you cited, readig DKos for the first time again in months, my conclusion is that this is just an orange madness hype, exaggerated beyond recongnition, and I really wonder why you brought this up here. This isn't our fight, and it has no connection whatever to what we discuss here.


[ Parent ]
Are you talking about that one diary? (0.00 / 0)
Where the guy said he was "investigated"?  There's far more to it than that guy.  Tip of the iceberg.  That was not what I was talking about.

And, yes, FBI wanaabees investigating commenters on-line is a problem.  It chills free discussion.  

The blogs seem to be place for people to play out what they cannot do in real life.  Petty tyrants seeking e-power.  It's crap and very far from anything progressive.  

We have self appointed police at Daily Kos, which is community moderated.  The community is all, and it is not delegated to one little group of 10 people.  They play their games and get in wars with other people.  But, in the end, the entire community can squash them if they go too far.

   


[ Parent ]
Yup, that's the diary YOU linked. (0.00 / 0)
"That was not what I was talking about."

Helloooo? Then why did you bring that up? I know your comments generally cover serious stuff, that was the only reason I started looking into this.

"And, yes, FBI wanaabees investigating commenters on-line is a problem.  It chills free discussion."
I don't think so. By participating in blog discussions, commenters have to be aware that it may happen it will be checked if they are sock puppets. Happened to me at Wikipedia, too. No big deal. Btw, pls read the Wikipedia article about Lee Siegel (not the prof, the other one) and the New Republic controversy to understand why sock puppetry is a problem.

"We have self appointed police at Daily Kos, which is community moderated."
It's a nuthouse.


[ Parent ]
I see the problem. (0.00 / 0)
My original comment with the links was about Sirota and linked to that diary from last week.

If you have time, go through the comments here (500 or more) and you will learn all sides of the issue.

I'm TomP there.

I dealt with these people in 2007 briefly when I was a prominant advocate for Edwards on Daily Kos.  Primary wars.  

But the subsided.  I learned about all this new stuff in this diary:

  http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

It's a mess and neither of the two major sides are all right or all wrong.

I just don't like gangs targetting people and was bothered by the fact they seemed to be targetting Sirota also, although he is a sideshow to them.

The "troll hunters" are in a war with people who are at the freespeechzoneblog, which I discovered in this diary.

Some people I have long known at Daily Kos, like pager, who was a big Obama supporter in primary wars and with whom I used to argue, got caught up in it.  Read her comments.  She and I are cool and have been since primary wars.

For the most part, the troll hunters are just people who get off on autobanning real trolls, although that can be debated.  The freespeechzoneblog seems to be a folow up blog to pff.

It all goes back and these people are in a war, but when it impacts innocents and political discussion, I think it's wrong.

Anyway, when you have time, read the comments in this diary.  There are links to all sorts of things.

Remember, there are two sides to this:

freespeechzoneblog


[ Parent ]
Well, imho it's a nuthouse. (4.00 / 1)
And I learned from this episode that DKos isn't a platform where I would like to participate. Too chaotic, too much peer pressure aggainst dissenting voices, no real oversight at all, all that name calling and ratings abuse - that's not my cup of beer.

However, regarding that "sock puppet patrol" gang obsessed about "Dave Weintraub", whoever that is, imho they're mostly harmless. I guess we can only agree that we disagree about them.  


[ Parent ]
Agreed. :-) (4.00 / 1)
Daily Kos is a lot of things.  It has lots of readers.  There's good and bad there.  That whole war thing is not the good.  :-)

You can reach numbers though.  I sometimes promote issues like unions/green, etc., and you can reach several thousand.

This diary had a 1927 readers, and like 500 or 600 recommends.  A Guy named jotter does it:

rank nrec ncom tators cnx viewers impact Diary Author EST
1 810 673 316 984 3608 8.87 Goodbye to My Old Friends of the Radical Left... mka193 13:45

2 786 562 307 962 4053 8.63 [updated] Apparently you people don't know Barack Obama (And I do) - Part 2 Reaper0Bot0 01:14

3 748 244 154 814 3692 7.92 Obama: Hire These Heroes from the Bush Era (Update x 5) DrSteveB 12:45

4 500 1088 414 780 1927 6.03 Whatever Obama does is okay?  This is the netroots? TomP 08:40

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

I like the software there, but the real discussions here are better.  I'll still be at both places, but I do agree that the pressure against dissenting voices there is bad.  if one wants to try to persuade on an issue or candidate, dkos has eyes that are reachable, if you are successful.

Lately, Dkos has been boring.  A lot of cheerleading of Obama, even on the front page, and not as much real analysis.  Open Left has had better analysis and discussions.

Take care.

 


[ Parent ]
Be careful what you wish for. (0.00 / 0)
Do you somehow think that blind adherence to ideology and personality was somehow the province of Republicans and conservatives only, and that Democrats and progressives are somehow more evolved human beings?

If so, I'd like to point out that Stalin was getting great press in the US from liberals, while kulaks were being shot in the USSR, during the 1920's and 1930's. So it's not like this is a) unique in history or b) unique to a political movement. Liberals have party hacks as part of their "movement", too. Welcome to reality circa 2008.

This is why talking about "OMG, we need a MOVEMENT like the right-wingers do!" scares the crap out of me. No, we don't. This talk of emulating the Right Wing Wurlitzer is really dangerous stuff. I prefer some decentralization to my side of the political spectrum, even if it comes at some cost.

Also:

Sure, website comments/discussion is not a scientific measure of American public opinion, but it is a decent snapshot of activist opinion and related - at least in some way - to the larger cultural psyche.

You don't get out much, do you? I've seen comment sections on newspapers or political discussions on USENET, and they make blogospheric bunfights look like tea parties.

If I start seeing rallies/protest marches/etc., THEN I might think it's more than hot air. Otherwise- everyone remember PUMA? And the "OMGWTFBBQ IT'S TEH APOCALYPSE?!?!?!!!111" attitude about it on the blogosphere? Gone by October.


More "Dear Leader" stuff, huh? (4.00 / 8)
OK.  Instead of saying anything that will be misinterpretted (willfully or otherwise) as "STFU" I'm going to answer this point by point.


What worries me is that the mass psychology of the country has changed - that our entire conception of what it means to live in a democracy has radically changed, and not for the better.

Let's agree on this point.  There has been a change in mass psychology, for the worse.  I want to articulate what I believe has driven this change:

1. The American public has by and large grown cynical about government, because government has been consistently revealed to be corrupt and largely up for sale for amounts greater than most of us have at our disposal.

2. The global AND domestic political climate is overwhelmingly complex, making a republican democracy ideal (in that there are political "experts" who know more than us about what the heck is going on) and at the same time dangerous (in that these "experts" can form an oligarchy particularly with the excuse that we just don't understand what's really going on.).

3. There is a practical perceived need for secrecy that undermines our attempts at understanding what the heck our government is doing.

4. Our government is largely too big and inaccessible for us to effectively (and within the context of our busy citizen's lives) monitor the work of our government.

5. There is a mass marketing of fear that undermines our willingness to challenge our government (Shameless plug for Bob Cesca's book, though everyone here probably doesn't NEED to read it, it's likely a great holiday gift.)

I encourage folks to go back through the posts on this site and others and look at the reaction to anyone who questions, points out, or raises a flag when our Dear Leader

Unfortunately you raise red flags for me every time you use this phrasing.  I find it insulting, unfair, and tactically stupid.  If indeed you are aiming to convince those who don't see things the way you see them, it's not really the best idea to insult their character and intelligence by using rhetoric like this.

...has backed off a campaign promise or made an appointment that seems at odds with policy pledges.* Obama has no anti-war voices in his cabinet? We shouldn't worry, and to even mention it is an act of treason. Obama put free-trading deregulators in his cabinet after campaigning against free trade and deregulation? STFU, you irrelevant jerk. Obama backed off major tax promises? No it's not true despite the facts, and who really cares - regulating the oil industry isn't important anymore.

As mentioned above - it seems to me that you might be a little bit tone-deaf... hearing other people's arguments in opposition to your own as "STFU." It's actually fairly common in internet communications that people mistake oppositional arguments as requests for you to be silent.

Dealing with the specific criticisms you lay at Obama's feet, it is entirely possible that you're just prioritizing quite differently than some of us.  I don't dare speak for anyone but myself, since my views are the most different here, but every one of the objections you raise filter (at least for me) through the five points I outlined earlier - and when I get finished filtering, I find, fundamentally, that I don't much care.  I'm MUCH more concerned about whether or not Obama delivers on change that rectifies those five points. I can't even know about my government, and what is true or not true, unless those five points are resolved.

The Obama candidacy (under the auspices of what you disparage as "dear leaderism") has promised to rectify much of this - and if his administration succeeds - I think we will all be on much surer footing when it comes to making our government responsive to us.  Indeed, I understand that progressives believe in expansion of government and the perpetual advancement of ideals, but I honestly don't see how any expansion of government can ever be trusted or even desired (in short, how can the progressive ideal become the American ideal - without people self-labelling as something other than liberal or progressive) if we start from a fundamental distrust in government?  Even your arguments about Obama changing policies, breaking promises, etc., fail to address the most salient point of all of this... how is this any different from any government we've had in our lifetimes, and if it isn't different, what are we (those of us who don't much care) expecting in return?  Maybe it isn't the stuff that you think we should care about.  Maybe its some other stuff, without which all the rest is just window-dressing?

Again - I don't suppose anyone but me feels this way, but I'll argue that there are a lot of people who are celebrating what feels like the beginnings of a infrastructure repair of government by the Obama administration, and we like it - even if it sometimes comes at the expense of some "purist" milestones.

In other words, whenever questions are raised - no matter how gently or how substantive - the person raising it is attacked as a "concern troll," a "whiner," a purist martyr on a crucifix, a self-important attention freak who thinks he/she is a hero, a horrifically disloyal traitor or a "liar" (the last of which is most appalling, since those making the accusations may disagree on opinion, but rarely actually offer up where the questioners are factually inaccurate).

I have seen legitimate criticism passed over illegitimately.  Can we possibly agree that this so-called "digital brownshirtism" goes both ways?  And - especially since in this space it is you and Matt and Chris and Paul and a couple of others who have authority to shape discourse on the front page - in this microcosm - its actually you guys who are being actively rebelled against - the very opposite of "brownshirtism."  Structurally, whiny, rebellious, hyperbolic responses are just about all the power we have - and that is limited with the threat of a ban.

*********************

I have to admit that I came to post after composing this in notepad, only to discover I missed fully half of the original post beneath the fold.  I apologize for that, and will read and possibly respond later.  I will say that I think that much of what I wanted to say won't be changed based on the limited scan of the material I missed.

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




Wonderful post, QueenTiye... (4.00 / 2)
...thanks for the effort in raising those points in return.

[ Parent ]
Well stated! (4.00 / 3)
It's nice to be reminded that disagreement can be respectful. You've done a perfect job, and your feelings are shared by many.



[ Parent ]
Oh, David, David ... (4.00 / 1)
>>whenever questions are raised - no matter how gently or how substantive - the person raising it is attacked as a "concern troll," a "whiner," a purist martyr on a crucifix, a self-important attention freak who thinks he/she is a hero, a horrifically disloyal traitor or a "liar"

This has been happening to Clinton supporters since February.  We were so brutally beaten up at some of the more popular so-called progressive sites that we just left and started our own network of sites.

You never noticed?  Only now that YOU're the one being brownshirted do you deign to acknowledge what's been happening to many of us for almost a year?

You'll get pity from me when you start acknowledging what really put Obama in the White House.  Hate.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com


???? (4.00 / 1)
"You'll get pity from me when you start acknowledging what really put Obama in the White House.  Hate. "

I don't follow.  Are you implying that a majority of American voters are hateful? Was it hate that drove record turn-out?  



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Obamabotics... (2.00 / 2)
is Hillary-hatred transferred but not transformed (or reformed).

[ Parent ]
Its a stretch to claim that hatred of Hillary put Obama in the WH (4.00 / 1)
Just as its a stretch to assume that because a certain voter considered HC a poor choice for the Democratic nomination did so out of hatred.

I guess that's where the term "PUMA" came from....just to sprinkle some new fuel on the fire of name-calling.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Yes, it's a stretch. However, Obama fans made an impact... (4.00 / 1)
by taking over the discussion boards of several liberal blogs and pushing long term commenters, who happened to support Clinton, out. This left some scars, and while I think cora is exaggerating, I totally understand her point of view.

[ Parent ]
One more thing (4.00 / 3)
I don't buy the underlying assumption that HC would have won the election against McCain, so its the fault of those Democrats that supported Obama in the primaries and caucuses that prevented HC from attaining the WH.

I just don't think HC would have run as effective a campaign as BO in the GE. If she couldn't get it together enough to win the nomination, its a pipedream to believe she could have overcome the "hatred" to beat McCain.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Hard to say... (0.00 / 0)
but I do believe she polled higher on election day vs. McCain than Obama did.

[ Parent ]
When I go to the shopping malls and the sports venues (0.00 / 0)
I don't see much to be desired.

You are saying you do?

That says a lot about you.


[ Parent ]
Living with contradictions in this emerging culture (4.00 / 1)
is one of the challenges to being an American living in the US. I'm no fan of conspicuous consumption, or the frenzied marketing on parade at the Malls.

But the relationship of those to hatred and the HC/OB campaigns is well beyond my kenn.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Hate? (4.00 / 3)
Wow. If it's pity you're in the market for, you have it from me.

[ Parent ]
There was hate alright. Even if it didn't put Obama in the WH. (0.00 / 0)
But in this regard cora is right, the discussion forums of most blogs had become nuthouses during the primary.

[ Parent ]
oops, sry,... (0.00 / 0)
the name is Caro, of course.  

[ Parent ]
there is a problem, but underlying symptom is different (4.00 / 4)
I think you're on to something, but I'd say you're just seeing a symptom of a different underlying problem.

One of the major issues with the Bush administration, along with the Republicans and Democrats that enabled it, was the lack of accountability for corrupt practices and failed policies.

Alas, although we have succeeded in replacing Bush and many of those who enabled him, establishing a culture of accountability in Washington, D.C. is a more distant goal.

Most people just want a government that works. They want problems solved. That's what Obama ran on. Change you can believe in. Change that will work for you.

Those who believe in accountability and those who are are convinced Obama needs support to restore a working government are sometimes at odds over how to get to similar, but not the same, goals. Thus, the conflict.

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue


You said it better than me! :) (4.00 / 1)
[ Parent ]
Wonderful post (4.00 / 1)
That distills it as well as anything I have seen WVA. Thanks for the insight.

[ Parent ]
For instance... (0.00 / 0)
...I am mad as hell at the lack of over-sight with regard to the first $700 billion dollar giveaway. I think Obama should address that issue here in the interim, particularly since he was one of the drivers of that rushed and flawed piece of legislation, and since he has saddled himself with that pile of dung.

What do I do about that anger? I have expressed the view to my Congressman (Steve Cohen) that this needs to be addressed. Should I also do a diary on it? That I have not, does that make me a brown shirt?

Does my concern that Obama get the support he needs to be begin to fix the shitstorm of governmental incompetence that the Bushies are leaving outweigh my desire for accountability? Where is the line? And why is a genuine struggle with those issues so easily dismissed by people on this post and comments thread with name-calling?

Is it not possible for us on this part of the progressive left to have this conversation without the invective? I would have hoped so. I guess I still hope so.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (2.00 / 2)
You say that when it comes to the bailout, you hope Obama "begins to fix the shitstorm of governmental incompetence that the Bushies are leaving." But of course, you don't mention that Obama voted for the bailout.

We can't mention that, of course - it might offend the Dear Leader.


[ Parent ]
Can you not read, David? (4.00 / 1)
Jesus, grow the fuck up.

There are two concepts there, and I covered them.

Concept 1: Specifically, there is an oversight gap with regard to the $700 billion dollar handout, and Obama owns that in large part. I said that in the first paragraph, second sentence. Look at it again. Read it slowly. That is a full-blown criticism I have of Obama and that particular handicap he has handed himself, and in fact, continues to hand himself because of the continued failed oversight. Got that?

However, that leads to:

Concept 2:  The GENERAL shitstorm that the Bush administration has left behind, which is larger than even the $700 billion dollar turd that Obama helped push through. THOSE issues, including the ones that terrify me because of their enormity (global warming, the crash of the world economy, systemic educational failures, need for green energy and general energy independence), are inherited issues for which Obama is going to need support to begin to address what has been left for him.

Hence, my mention of the "conflict" between the two. How to bring pressure to bear on the first, without impairing his ability to deal with the second. And, please, for fuckssake, STOP with Dear Leader stuff when addressing that issue. You have rendered yourself to be an infant at this point, with that silliness.

Seriously, grow up.


[ Parent ]
membengal (4.00 / 2)
 membengal, you can make your point without swearing. You're behavior is very trashy.

[ Parent ]
Mugshot (4.00 / 1)
I hardly think anyone's ears on this site are THAT delicate. Thanks for the laugh, though.

[ Parent ]
Its not about feelings (0.00 / 0)
Its about class. Get some.

[ Parent ]
No offense, but (0.00 / 0)
your impressions of me matter not a whit.

And, once again, you take a sidetrack to make an issue out of anything other than what is being discussed.

Laugable.


[ Parent ]
lol (0.00 / 1)
lol. I wasn't even involved in this specific discussion. I was just pointing out that you're acting like trailer park trash that just rolled in from Tennessee.

[ Parent ]
Let me know when you can make a point (0.00 / 1)
without name calling.

I will assume you are about 13 years old at this point, as that seems to the level that you are operating on.


[ Parent ]
Wrong. There are some nitpicking people. (0.00 / 0)
I just recently had an argument with a ser who thinks even harsh criticism without name calling deserves to be rated 0.

However, gtfu is insulting, by ANY measure. Only the fact that more than 90% of your comment consists of reasonable arguments saved you from a trollrating, imho.


[ Parent ]
Wow, did you notice that move? (0.00 / 0)
Sirota takes the fact that Obama voted for the bailout bill - which has oversight provisions in it - and then characterizes it as responsibility for lack of oversight. The mendacity.

[ Parent ]
"oversight" (4.00 / 1)
The major criticism about the bill was that it included very little oversight. Attempting to claim that the bill has oversight, but its the Bush administration's fault for not exerting it, is beyond silly. It's straight up dishonest, especially when Democrats control the congressional oversight committees.

[ Parent ]
I agree David (0.00 / 0)
This is yet another example of the Dems falling down on their job as leaders of Congress. And Obama owns a big part of that, as a member of that body, and as the Pres Elect.

It needs to be addressed. And he needs to lead on it. Soon. Now. Yesterday.

But, again returning to the point I was making above, it is hard to know how to pressure that, in light of the larger battles I am hoping he will take up. And I don't clearly know how the one (the putrid bailout) impacts the agenda that I want forwarded. Or his ability to carry that agenda out. Or even if he will carry that agenda out.

But that is also why I keep cautioning you that people's feeling their way along in regard to lodging criticisms of Obama is perhaps more nuanced than your approach, and perhaps why it would be hella cool if you would stop name-calling those who voice some concerns along those lines brown-shirts, Obama-bots, or whatever else is levied.


[ Parent ]
You don't know how the bailout impacts the agenda? (4.00 / 3)
$700 billion handed over to Wall Street will (and is!) being used as a reason why Obama supposedly can't do big things like universal health care, etc.

[ Parent ]
Yes, I get that, David, at least that's the pushback from the right (0.00 / 0)
I am hoping that Obama smacks down that pushback. I hope that he had that in mind when he was passing that putrid piece of crap, and that it won't impact the program with regard to green jobs etc. Just because Versailles bleats that doesn't make it so, I would hope. I know what the arguments are for trying to hem in the agenda, I am hoping that he will simply push through that.

But since the bailout falls under what's done is done (at least $380 billiion dollars worth), and we are stuck with it, I am betting on Obama being large enough to meet the moment, and move beyond the Washington chattering class and what should be discredited Wall Street minions.

So, what are my options?

1. I hope that he is large enough to meet the moment.

2. I have been in constant contact with my own Congressman (Cohen) urging/begging/pleading for oversight.

3. I have withheld money from the DSCC and DCCC for 1 1/2 years now because of their absolute inability to, yaknow, LEAD.

Now what? Diaries? What else to do?

I think, in large measure, I am stuck waiting to see how this plays out. I have to trust, somewhat, that Obama is as intelligent as I think he is, and will work as hard as he can to bring about changes to the world that are lasting. That means prioritizing energy independence, green jobs, alternative sources of energy, dealing with carbon emissions, dealing with the failure of our educational system, and about 10 other issues that are near and dear to my heart and which, I am certain, I am FAR left of the mainstream, a lot of Dems, and the President. There is only so much pressure I can bear.

You, however, with your platform, can bring more. And I think, frankly, that when you set aside the name-calling etc., and focus on the constructive criticisms (which for me means acknowledging the challenges he faces in addressing these issues) of his approach, you can be effective. I just wish you would do it without the "Dear Leader" stuff. I think you are tilting at a few windmills of random annonymous internet commentors, and would be better served setting your sites and aims higher. For G-d's sake, not many of us have acccess to Maddow's show as a guest...

---Peace.

---Aaron


[ Parent ]
Excellent! (4.00 / 4)
Thanks, David.  I've been lurking for weeks and this post finally got me to sign on and say how strongly I agree with your perspective.  I'm feeling the same sort of disconnect that I felt during the lead up to the Iraq War and it is indeed disturbing.  It took a long, long time and too much damage for this country to wake up and start thinking critically and asking, out loud, the hard questions.  There is nothing - nothing - wrong with holding your government accountable to serve the interests of its citizens.  Obama's election was a sweet victory, but we have some serious work to do.  Time to put away the party hats.

The Psychological Realm is a Battlefront (0.00 / 0)
I believe that authoritarianism may be the resulting condition of prolonged exposure to psychological crossfire.  Our daily lives are bombarded with psychologically subversive material including but not limited to advertising.  Authoritarianism may be a kind of preemptive attack to shut down debate on a subject which one may perceive as threatening.

Psychological subversion was a tactic employed by the KGB to destabilize and /or demoralize a target group.  During the cold war it was employed against the United States.  It's a process which can take decades to initiate but may be devastatingly effective.