Auto Bailout Deal Collapses (For Now)

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 23:25


No deal in D.C.:

An eleventh-hour effort to salvage a proposed $14 billion rescue plan for the auto industry collapsed tonight as Republicans and Democrats failed to agree on the timing of deep wage cuts for union workers, killing the legislative plan and threatening America's carmakers with bankruptcy.

"We're not going to get to the finish. That's just the way it is. There too much difference between the two sides," Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) announced after 10 p.m., concluding a marathon negotiating session that ended in gridlock. Reid warned that markets could plummet when trading begins this morning.

"I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight," he said.

Reid said the Senate would adjourn after a procedural vote on the bill later tonight that he said he expected would fail.

Now, the final vote was 52-35. On January 6th, Democrats gain a minimum of seven votes in the Senate, which would likely move us to 59 votes in this bill, only one short of passage. The roll call is not yet available, but if any Democrats did not vote, if Franken wins the recount, or if Reid voted with Republicans (as Majority Leaders sometimes do on these bills for procedural purposes), then it will pass in early January anyway. If none of these three are the case, then we need to find one more vote between now and January 6th. That is, of course, assuming that there are still any auto manufacturers in America to bailout by that date. (Update: Four Democrats did not vote, and Reid voted with Republicans. With nine ten Republicans defecting, six seven of whom will be around in 2009, new legislation will easily pass in January upon the arrival of at least seven new Democratic votes.)

In the meantime, as lord_mike notes in Quick Hits, Bush may well instruct Paulson to provide the auto industry with a bridge through the Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP. It would be a surprising move, and I will believe it when I see it, but perhaps the Gringch's heart is growing a size toward the end of his term. He also just might find the collapse of the American auto industry during his final month in office too hard to swallow.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Auto Bailout Deal Collapses (For Now)
I am of two minds on this. First, I think the American automakers should be bailed out, although strings should be attached and the government should get an ownership stake. After all, as Matt writes, why should the financial sector get $700 billion, but manufactures who produce cars and provide three million middle class jobs get nothing? Surely, if we can spend $700 billion to "save" Wall Street, $25 billion of that money can be spent to save Detroit. The collapse of this bailout leave me worried that these jobs will all be gone by January. We are not talking chapter eleven bankruptcy here, but possible chapter seven, which means total liquidation. It might very well happen before Congress re-convenes.

Second, this bill kept getting worse every day. Concession after concession after concession was made, and it still didn't pass. This legislation had turned into a real stinker, which would have actually retarded the growth of cleaner vehicles in America rather than attached strings to push them along. The government would likely have not received any meaningful investment stake, either. We need to save these jobs and this domestic industry, but swallowing this pill would have been extremely difficult.

Clearly, winning the election did not guarantee progressive governance. Here is Harry Reid's statement:

"Given the unhappy choice between a bridge loan and bankruptcy, Democrats have always believed that we must give the Big Three and the millions of Americans they employ every possible chance to succeed.

"By rejecting every good-faith bipartisan compromise - including those from the White House and Senator Bob Corker - it is now abundantly clear that Republicans have no interest in keeping the Big Three from collapsing.

"Because Republicans failed to act, three million Americans are more likely than ever to lose their jobs and our economy is at risk of suffering even
greater damage. Our hearts go out to those families who will now have to deal with this burden as the holidays near.

"Republicans may think that rejecting this legislation sent a message to the auto industry.  Instead, they sent a message to every single American that they are more interested in settling scores than solving problems

I know how it feels to lose a job close to the holidays, and to have family members lose jobs close to the holidays. Pretty bad stuff.


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Reid voted with the republicans (4.00 / 1)
I saw the roll-call.

Procedural. (4.00 / 4)
   He votes against it so he can bring up the bill again.

John McCain lets lobbyists shape his economic policy

[ Parent ]
Yes, I know. (4.00 / 3)
Just confirming Chris's hunch on the roll-call vote.

[ Parent ]
Roll Call (4.00 / 2)
Baucus, Tester, and Lincoln voted no.

10 Republicans (Bond, Brownback, Collins, Dole, Domenici, Lugar, Snowe, Specter, Voinovich, and Warner) voted Yes.

12 were absent (Alexander, Biden, Cornyn, Craig, Graham, Hagel, Kennedy, Kerry, Smith, Stevens, Sununu, and Wyden).

http://www.senate.gov/legislat...


[ Parent ]
We have the votes NOW in this session to pass a bill (0.00 / 0)
4 Democrats voted NO

Pryor
Baucus
Lincoln
Tester

If they would vote yes that gets up to 56, 57 with Reid

So say  those who weren't there came back to vote like

Wyden
Kennedy
Kerry
Biden?

That means NOW before the end of the month we could get to 60 without Biden and sadly without Obama .  

Hagel didn't vote,  could he vote with the Dems on this?

And of those Dems who voted NO,  are they movable?

We potentially have the votes NOW before the month is over....Isn't saving 3 million jobs worth coming back to DC for?  Avoiding a potential recession worth getting on a plane for?  I think this vote is as important as the AUMF in 2002.  This will have enormous consequences. Are they hoping this puts pressure on Bush and Paulsen to use the TARP funds?  It feels like playing chicken.

I think Reid and Durbin need to be whipping their own members...if we get those 8 votes,  we may only have a deep recession not a depression.

Anybody calculate what the unemployment rate would be with 3,000,000 Three Million more people out of work.? Definitely double digits.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
My, my. Isn't Tester one of the "progressives" (4.00 / 4)
dkos raised money for?  This is another example of why just being a D isn't good enough.  IF we have an auto industry left to finish the restructuring it was involved in before the meltdown, I hope they remember which states did and did not support them when they close plants.  Nothing would make me happier than to see those states have "their chickens come home to roost".

Credit unions in four midwest states have joined together and pledged billions in auto loans.  As I said, friends and enemies.  The autos need to remember which is which.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
Tester must have a principled reason to vote no (4.00 / 1)
I heard him on Ed Shultz the other day and he was adiment about saving the big 3 and providing the loan.  I'd check his website before making a judgement.  and hopefully that goes for the other Democrats as well.  Mabye they knew the votes weren't there and far too many concessions were made already.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, well we all ought to have a (0.00 / 0)
principled reason for taking out farm aid and clean coal.  There are no excuses.  Tester is a Democrat.  Democrats represent the working/middle class - alledgedly.  "We aren't red states and blue states, we are all Americans." Ha!   The next time he shows up at dkos with his tin cut, he can kma.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Some interesting news I posted in a quick hit... (4.00 / 3)
I guess Bush was warning the GOP to pass the bill or he'd use TARP funds:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/1...

If that eventually happens, then we've scored a HUGE win!  I don't think it will happen, but the fact that he even brought it up makes me wonder if Bush really gives a damn about his legacy.  GM failing on his watch would not be looked upon well in history.

I'm not getting my hopes up, but if that has been discussed by the white house, then the option is at least being discussed...

So, maybe there will be a Christmas miracle for the blue midwest...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


"makes me wonder if Bush really gives a damn about his legacy" (4.00 / 3)
or that Paulson wants his $350 billion before Obama gets it.

[ Parent ]
Probably both... (0.00 / 0)
...but, at this point, he can have the rest if they give a substantial sum to the Big 3.

I guess the democrats DO have some leverage...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
I think the big boys .. (4.00 / 3)
of industry have been bending Bush's ear .. Do you really believe the titans of industry want to see The Big Three go under right now?  Even the nitwits on CNBC know that a collapse of the Big Three right now would make our present economic problems a lot worse .. so no .. I don't think Bush gives a shit .. I think it is more so .. possible donors to his Presidential Library saying that if Bush doesn't get his head out of his ass .. they won't have the money to give the library

[ Parent ]
It does make you wonder (4.00 / 2)
On the one hand, allowing the Big 3 to go under is consistent with both RW ideology (laissez-faire) and long-term GOP political goals (burning down the village in order to take it over). Yet on the other hand, if they do go under, lots of his rich friends (i.e. his true GOP base) will lose big, as will some Repubs--forget about them keeping Voinovich or Gregg's seats in '10.

On the horns of a real dilemmma there, eh, Georgie Boy?  

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I just saw an article .. (4.00 / 7)
a lot of auto dealers in KY are pissed at McConnell .. seems like he promised them he wouldn't stand in the way of the bailout .. and a lot of dealers are probably Republicans .. just look at the roll call .. very interesting .. look at the Repubs who voted yea

[ Parent ]
I just love it when one GOP constituency is pitted against another (4.00 / 4)
A la Dubai, Harriet Miers and Medicare D. In this case it's the economic free-marketers, foreign auto lobby and political ratfuckers, pitted against Joe Sixpack, small business owners and working class red America--i.e. Joetheplummer, who can forget about his plumbing business, and maybe even his job. In order to benefit certain FOREIGN-owned companies, union busters, Miltonians, and their red state constituents, they're willing to screw over millions of workers and small business owners, many of whom are Repubs. It's surreal. And surreally stupid. They're willing to go over a cliff so long as they take the rest of us down with them. Except, we shouldn't have to. We're not anchored to them.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
KY car jobs (4.00 / 1)
You'd never know it from the ceaseless PR, but Ford employs more workers in KY (9,000 in two Louisville plants) than Toyota (8,000).  The Explorers are made in Louisville.  When that started to slump, the plant was partially retooled and some small car production went there.


[ Parent ]
Maybe (4.00 / 2)
But really how much money does a library of picture books, Classic Literature Comics and baseball magazines REALLY need... ;-)

[ Parent ]
What I Find Interesting (0.00 / 0)
Is that even Toyota and Honda don't really want the Big 3 to go under right now. They use a lot of the same suppliers, to say nothing of selling a lot of cars here, so a collapse at the moment is going to be as bad for their bottom line, between suppliers going out of business and fewer people buying cars as the recession deepens, as much as anyone's. So whatever Corker, Shelby, Demint, etc. are doing, they're not going to bat for the Japanese manufacturers.  

[ Parent ]
Whoops! (4.00 / 1)
I didn't notice at first that Chris quoted me!  Sorry! :-)  And thanks for the rec, I feel like a real celebrity now! :-D

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
Scary to think (4.00 / 6)
there are actually times when the Bush administration appears more moderate and reasonable than the rest of the party.  

[ Parent ]
I think what Bush is being (0.00 / 0)
told is that the damage to these brands is so severe that if they go into Chapter 11 they will never get out.  As a result, I think it is dawning on him that this can't wait for Obama.  

I don't think GM and Chrysler will be here on January 20th if they don't get the money.  I shudder to think what is going to happen to their market share while these talks are going on.


[ Parent ]
I wonder too (4.00 / 12)
if Bush will work some deal where he'll use TARP funds to bail them out if Dems play ball and release the last $350 billion of TARP funds for Paulson.

Also, Reid really really really needs to think up another strategy to deal with republican filibsuters. This is getting ridiculous. You know that even if we get 60 votes all the time on major bills, the republicans are going to force cloture votes even more-so than this year just to clog things up since each of those roll call votes takes about 30-40 minutes to get through. They can object to whatever the hell they want.

Time to make filibusters actually mean filibusters. If republicans want to make 60 votes the threshold for everything, then they should have to debate non-stop.  


That would be a big win for us, too... (0.00 / 0)
...although I don't like the idea of them getting more money... they can't spend it all in a month...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
HEAR HEAR! (4.00 / 6)
Seriously, let em roll out the cots and fillibuster. Let's see their faces on tv before the holidays speaking about wage cuts and job loss.  Talk about the grinch.

[ Parent ]
Dumb question (0.00 / 0)
some deal where he'll use TARP funds to bail them out if Dems play ball and release the last $350 billion of TARP funds for Paulson

Is this possible without 60 senate votes?


[ Parent ]
No votes are needed... (4.00 / 5)
...it requires a 2/3rds majority for congress to deny TARP funds, but not to allocate the second half.  That discretion goes to the treasury secretary...

So, all the dems have to do is promise not to vote it down.  They could vote it down easily... the republicans have no love for Bush at the moment and would certainly join many dems to bring that down.  There would be no political harm on either side for doing so, and Bush knows it!

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
ah, smells like bribery (4.00 / 8)
and you're right... these filibusters are ridiculous. Harry Reid acts as if he's in the freaking minority, sitting on his hands and afraid he'll pee his pants if some Republican goes "boo".

He needs to shout the words "Republicans are FILIBUSTERING to kill 3 million jobs". And make them really filibuster, make them read the freaking phone book in Congress while people lose their homes.


[ Parent ]
Well uh (4.00 / 1)
I was gonna post this article to quick hits noting that the bailout could have potential negative effects on Tesla Motors (they're building their first stateside plant using a loan which is drawn from the fund that was going to be raided to fund the auto bailout; so if the money leaves the fund the plant could have to be put on hold. This is not an argument against the bailout, it just means that Congress has to replenish the money in the fund quickly or there is a problem).

...but never mind. :(


I'm not a big fan of Tesla Motors... (4.00 / 4)
..from what I'm hearing it's a pretty shady operation...  Perhaps it's newbie incompetence on their part, but I'm not going to bet the green future on a company that seems not to be on the up and up...

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
funny how Tesla's having problems selling their $109,000 vehicle (4.00 / 5)
and their investors are bailing... yet so many people who know nothing about the auto industry assume that Tesla is the model company and ideal for which GM, Ford and Chrysler should strive for. I actually had a discussion with someone last week - here in freaking Detroit! - who claimed that Tesla knows what they're doing, while GM/Chrysler/Ford are completely clueless, and therefore Tesla should take over the other US auto companies. I couldn't even respond, I was so shocked by the lack of knowledge.

[ Parent ]
Detroit Free Press (4.00 / 11)
According to the Detroit Free Press (freep.com), the major reason for Republican opposition is the $2 million per year in political contributions the UAW gives each year.  The Free Press specifically mentioned "payback" for a $40,000 contribution to Mitch McConnell's opponent this cycle.

Corker had the same gripe.  They must have donated to Harold Ford.  So even after they win, these **** will ruin the retirements of millions and the livelihood of a similar amount of people because of legal political donations.

I thought Mitch McConnell was a horrible person but my opinion of the man dropped about a thousand notches if this is it.  McConnell and Corker and their buddies will have enormous karma to pay back, that's for sure.


When were Republicans ever not petty? ... (4.00 / 3)
You do remember two months ago on the original Bank bailout vote .. right? ..  when Pelosi hurt those poor Rethuglicans feelings?

[ Parent ]
of course this is the reason they oppose it (4.00 / 6)
it is the opportunity for the Republicans to drive a stake into the heart of the labor movement - one of the largest organizers and contributors to the Democratic party.

If you listed to Thom Hartmann today, he spoke eloquently about this point. Hartmann pointed out that organized labor drives more people to vote than just about any group - it certainly is responsible for the largest percentage of voters for the Democratic party than any other organization. Killing the unions means killing the progressive movement.

This is all about power and politics. And, the unfortunate result of this little game is that millions of people will lose their way of life. An entire region will be destroyed (hey, the second one in Bush's presidency). It will cost the US government a hell of a lot more money than this bridge loan would have cost... and therefore, it will cripple the Obama administration.

It's all about power and politics. Screw the little people.


[ Parent ]
If they thought they had labor against them before, (0.00 / 0)
wait till the next time they run.  There won't even be a presidential election around to divert labors take down.  For this, I would donate - lots.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
if any of us in organized labor have a job so we can donate (0.00 / 0)
it's a great argument.

But you know, as well as I do, what it's like here in our home state right now.


[ Parent ]
It's not just losing a job - it's destroying the middle class (4.00 / 7)
The entire Michigan economy, and the economy of many cities and towns throughout the country, and millions upon millions of people, is being thrown away.

All so that the Republicans can grasp their last final chance of power, so they can try to destroy the middle class even more. Their last chance to destroy it before their numbers diminish in the next Congress.

I can't tell you how sick to my stomach I am tonight.

And, to add extra insult to the most devastating blow, they (and the AP) have the freaking nerve to try and blame this on the auto unions - directly putting this on the shoulders of the men & women of the UAW because they won't bow to every ridiculous demand that a small number of smug senators are calling for. (Demands that the conservative Senators knew the UAW would never be able to accept.)

This is such a sick situation. I can't understand why Americans are not standing up in droves to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Millions of people will lose their entire way of life, and these smug Senators laugh it off as if its a game.

Where the F*** were the Senators who did not vote? Kerry and Biden missed the vote? What the HELL?


Kerry is in Poland right now... (4.00 / 3)
....and Biden said he's come if needed...  their votes wouldn't have made a difference..

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
Biden should have been there on PRINCIPLE (4.00 / 1)
I don't care what is going on. He's the incoming Vice President. Even if his vote on paper doesn't make a difference, his presence could make a difference.

It's a terrible signal to send to the American workforce.


[ Parent ]
All of their votes pooled together would have gotten us to 60 (4.00 / 2)
5 Dems voted NO (including Reid)

That gets you to 57

3 Dems weren't there that gets you to 60 and with Biden there is the safety of 61.  If Obama hadn't resigned that would maybe get you 62.  A margin of error if a Dem who voted no wouldn't change his vote.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
the AP is a dying institution .. (0.00 / 0)
they are in the tank for the Rethugs .. see Fournier and "Sprinkles" Sidoti for easy examples

[ Parent ]
Legacy Costs (4.00 / 4)
Why whenever that phrase was uttered the response wasn't "you mean pensions?" is beyond me.
We may have lost the battle over "collateral damage" (killing innocents) but we haven't lost this one yet.
They chose the ground, fine, lets hammer them with it. Where is the I'm a "legacy cost" campaign?  

Nationalize Pensions (4.00 / 3)
I really think we should nationalize the pensions of these companies.  It would instantly make them more competitive while guaranteeing an income to retirees if the company goes under.

[ Parent ]
Health care too. (4.00 / 1)
The big three are really getting a bum rap. Here's the link for the quote below. Bolding is mine.

In fact, many of the problems facing the Big Three aren't specific to them.  The worldwide auto industry is a mess, due to the freeze on credit; worldwide trade is expected to decline for the first time since 1982.  

What makes the situation so dire for GM and Chrysler is that they're currently in the midst of major restructuring, and they are the only auto producers in the world that have massive built-in legacy costs.  It's cheaper to produce cars in Canada, despite comparable labor costs and higher taxes, because the auto companies don't have to pay for health care for current and retired workers, both unionized and non-unionized.  Take away the massive health care and pension costs borne by the Big Three-costs which foreign producers in the US don't have to the same degree, because they have almost no retirees-and the Big Three would be hurting like the rest of the global auto industry, but GM and Chrysler probably wouldn't be on the verge of a catastrophe.




They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Just goes to show you how the Dems are idiots (0.00 / 0)
They have Detroit over a barrel.

They could go to them and say, "You want the money?  We want your support on single-payer health care.  We'll remove some of the legacy costs."

Dems think small and get poor results.


[ Parent ]
That would be a good tactical strategy... (4.00 / 1)
...if the Dems were really interested in single-payer, but they obviously have no interest in taking on the insurance companies.  You can bet that health care will be 'fixed' while somehow preserving insurance company profits.

Decarbonize, Deglobalize, Demilitarize

[ Parent ]
The big three and Gettelfinger (0.00 / 0)
made a joint public statement in support of universal health care months ago.   Failure?  Mismanagement?  Bad Practices?  Lets talk about Congress.  

Congress failed to enforce trade agreement they passed against the best interest of Americans.  Congress failed to pass a national energy policy that didn't support oil consumption and create a stable market for fuel efficient cars.  Congress failed to pass national health care so that American business, particularly American autos with their 100 years of legacy costs, could compete against countries who had national health care.  Congress failed to pass Economic Development programs that provided as much money to companies already here and trying to "stay" here as they provide to "new" companies moving in resulting in states robbing other state for jobs and all on the taxpayers dime.

How dare Obama, Democrats and liberals call the kettle black.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
You could not be more right (0.00 / 0)
Legacy costs are killing a significant portion of manaufacturing in this country.  The problem extends beyond the auto industry.


[ Parent ]
legacy costs (0.00 / 0)
is a polite way of saying union costs

[ Parent ]
No, the cost of human capital... (0.00 / 0)
Paraphrasing what Wagoner said to one of the asses during his water boardingtestimony on the Hill: If you want me to dump widows and old people on the streets, just say so.

For much of the 100 years these companies were in business, they were prosperous.  The unions and companies negotiated contracts that shared the wealth.  How stupid of them not to predict in 1908 that:

*  George W. Bush and his pals were going to bankrupt the country and cause a credit meltdown in 2008;
* That Democrats would pass trade agreements that would use US taxpayer money to move competition in while refusing to help US companies compete;

well you get my point.
   

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
if they get a pension (0.00 / 0)
paid by tax dollars why don't we all?

~* the * Will * to go on *~

[ Parent ]
brilliant opinion piece in Detroit Free Press (4.00 / 3)
the most important paragraph:
The Senate rejection appears rooted in the extraordinary assumptions that Congress can by legislation act as a bankruptcy judge or design the perfect car - so sexy, emission-free and cheap that every American will want one. Yet the final bill negotiated by the White House was, in fact, very much a form of bankruptcy lite. It would have caused plenty of pain here, if that was what Detroit's opponents were really seeking.

And, as Senator Debbie Stabenow said on the Senate floor Thursday night, "Don't 2.5 million people ... deserve three months?"

Apparently not. And, it will be a lot more than 2.5 million people in the next three months.

Read the whole article. It's short, and very well presented.
http://www.freep.com/article/2...


3 More Weeks (4.00 / 4)
and there are 58 Dem votes in the Senate.  5 more weeks and we have President Obama.  

One thought I had is couldn't Treasury and the Fed use the power of TARP to force a consortium of banks to provide a 5 week line of credit to the auto industry to get to Obama's inauguration.  If McCain were taking over Jan 20 I would see it as hopeless but there has to be a creative way to limp the automakers through the next few weeks.


They say they can't make it to Jan 6th without bridge loans (4.00 / 1)
They go to bankruptcy before the year is out.  It seemed so full of promise..and it could end really badly...very very badly.

Anybody got an apple?

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I Understand That (0.00 / 0)
I just can't believe there isn't a creative finance mechanism or a govt hammer that can't be used to get these companies the money they need to get to late Jan when there will be much bigger Dem majorities and President Obama.  Some of it maybe a lack of will on the Bush Admin but considering the fact the taxpayers just gave the banks $350 billion it would seem to me there is major leverage for a 6 week line of credit.

[ Parent ]
you would think so (0.00 / 0)
but you can't rely on it.  hope is a plan

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
They say they can't make it to Jan 6th without bridge loans (0.00 / 0)
They go to bankruptcy before the year is out.  It seemed so full of promise..and it could end really badly...very very badly.

Anybody got an apple?

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
My prediction? (4.00 / 2)
Dow down 1000.

You think the 777 after failure of TARP 1 was bad, wait until you see tomorrow.


aren't you glad you dont buy stocks based on your political emotions (4.00 / 1)
DOW currently 8479.15 -85.94 (-1.00%)

~* the * Will * to go on *~

[ Parent ]
One more important thing (4.00 / 2)
I am of two minds on this. First, I think the American automakers should be bailed out, although strings should be attached and the government should get an ownership stake.

They should admit that they are the ones who failed.  

Right now I get the sense that they still want to keep on producing the shitty products they always have and just want to blame the rest of the country for not giving enough money to keep them afloat or buying their products.

The financial industry at least publicly said that they failed.  That they made a mistake.  Currently the automakers seem to think that the only mistake that could be made is congress not just permanently funding their failures.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


Hmmm (4.00 / 2)
They should admit that they are the ones who failed.

U.S. auto companies have been lagging behind Toyota and Honda for quite some time.  But it isn't a coincidence that all three need cash right this second.  It is because of (1) the recession caused by the collapse of the housing bubble and (2) the credit freeze caused by the financial sector.  Those aren't the fault of the Detroit execs.

I'll also be the first to admit that I did not like the short-sighted approach of the Big 3 to focus on SUVs and light trucks and avoid producing smaller, more-efficient cars.  But they did it for a reason.  Until gas prices shot above $4, selling SUVs and trucks has been more profitable.  Do you honestly think that the Big 3 would have had more cash on hand if they had been selling more compact cars the past 5 years?

Not only that, but Congress, through tax breaks, etc., has been a major accomplice in encouraging Americans to buy SUVs.  It is the height of hypocracy (and stupidity) for Congress to whine and deny needed bailout money because the Big 3 were making the types of vehicles that Congress encouraged with tax incentives.  Are these idiots for real?

Finally, I can't believe how willing many Dems are to accept the destruction of our last remaining union manufacturing jobs?  Does anybody think that the execs that made these "bad choices" are going to pay the biggest prices?  Of course not. They will golden-parachute themselves to safety (and likely get jobs with VW, Honda, etc.) while the workers get the shaft.  This is insanity to even contemplate letting them fail.

Dems shouldn't be whining about what Detroit did wrong in the past. They should be using this opportunity to get concessions on the environment, on fuel efficiency, on health care. Dems are in a position of total strength and they are acting like they need a permission slip to do their jobs.


[ Parent ]
small cars can be profitable (0.00 / 0)
the american automakers were unable to devise a business model to profit off of small cars....however foreign car companies somehow were able to do this. wonder why?

the denial around this place is off the charts.


[ Parent ]
SUVs are more profitable (0.00 / 0)
because their manufacturing costs are not much different than small cars, but they sell for a lot more, plus Bush had a business tax break for purchasing a truck and SUVs were allowed to be qualified as a truck -- IIRC. so in the end the margins on SUVs were more profitable. small cars can be profitable too, but the margins are smaller.

~* the * Will * to go on *~

[ Parent ]
what i meant is that the prevailing attitude (0.00 / 0)
get as much as i can now and worry about tomorrow later has obvious consequences.  

[ Parent ]
I never said that they couldn't devise a new business model (0.00 / 0)
I was making the point that, given existing technologies, the price of fuel until this year, costs of production, and consumer preferences, and current tax law, it was more profitable in the short term for car companies to make and sell SUVs than small cars.

Are some foreign car companies successful with different business models?  Sure.  But in many cases, it has required that they look more long term.

Now, let me ask you this: Do you think that telling domestic car companies that they are on their own in the event of a global economic downturn will make them more or less to think long term?  Why would car companies invest in long-term technologies if a severe recession might hit the country and bankrupt the companies before the technologies can be brought to market?  

By letting the Big 3 fail, we are creating a disincentive, not an incentive, for companies to invest in the future.  Better to stick with what works, hoard cash, and let the next guy worry about the problem.

I'm certainly not defending the business decisions of Detroit.  There is no denial here.  But I'm not also not going to blame them for the sins of others. Nor am I going to push America's last remaining manufacturing base into oblivion in order to punish bad business decisions.  This is insanely spiteful.

Trillions of dollars for Wall Street, no questions asked, but we can't provide $25B in freaking bridge loans to an industry that directly or indirectly employs millions?


[ Parent ]
i get your point (0.00 / 0)
agree in principal. i have family at chrysler. i know how bad it is going to hurt.

this is a dying industry. maybe one will survive-retool and become successful. we are just putting off the inevitable. we should have demanded accountability in the 70s...they have had 40 years to get their shit together. they don't deserve much.

short term thinking is a dead-end in this environment. only the big thinkers...big ideas...and long term planning will succeed.

krugman said we can only support 1 or 2...they won't all fail. but at least one will.

fine with me to put off the pain as long as possible but it is inevitable.  


[ Parent ]
Not a dying industry (0.00 / 0)
Cars will continue to be made. And Americans will continue to buy them.  The question is whether they will be built by Americans, and more specifically, unionized Americans.

If there is no bailout, the companies will go into complete liquidation.  Plants closing.  Assets sold off.  Gone.  Say goodbye to the Midwest.

A bailout would be more or less like a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which would allow consolidation and operations to continue, while the various stakeholders settled for fractions on a dollar.

I also can't believe the total negativity about the U.S. auto industry.  Yes, Toyota and Honda make superior products, but the gap has been closing in recent years, not widening.  It isn't like Toyota and Honda are cranking out 80mpg or electric cars.  They just make stuff that is a little more reliable and slightly more fuel efficient.  And for this, we want to flush 3 million jobs down the toilet?  Insanity.


[ Parent ]
GMAC (0.00 / 0)
GMAC also has or at least had a mortgage subsidiary that made lots of bad loans.  It buened up cash and GM sold 51% of it to Chrysler's current parent, Cerberus.  Right now the cut off point for a GMAC loan is a credit score of 700.  No wonder they have trouble selling $30,000 and $40,000 vehicles.


[ Parent ]
Do you get paid to say this from blog to blog? (0.00 / 0)
Do you care that you are wrong and haven't a clue of what the facts are?  

If I cared or had the energy, I would find you the links to the quotes that would make you eat your words.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
It's amazing what we've been reduced to ... (4.00 / 1)
...in this matter: backing bailout legislation that has squeezed and squeezed the UAW (and, by extension, unionism in general). Why? Because not backing it would make matters even worse for the workers. I hate this kind of damned if you don't, fucked it you do situation.

Treasury to keep GM and Chrysler afloat (0.00 / 0)
At least until Jan. and the new Congress. According to CNBC.

No hiding from Global Wage Arbitrage (4.00 / 1)
Gettelfinger had this to say today:

"Gettelfinger said comparing salaries of U.S. and overseas auto workers is like comparing apples and oranges"

he's quite wrong, in fact they are comparable, and this is what is hammering down on the UAW. at this point, IMHO the UAW is lying to itself. it needs to make this fight about our free trade situation and the cost differences of manufacturing in the US vs overseas. no bailout will save the UAW from Global Wage Arbitrage unless the global manufacturing playing field is leveled in terms favorable to the US labor market. right now its being leveled in an unsavory direction, lower wages and less environmental impact regulation. the UAW is fighting the tidal wave. instead they should be focused on changing the tide.  

~* the * Will * to go on *~


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