Christophobia??? Wait A Second, Fellah! YOU'RE The Christophobe!

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Dec 27, 2008 at 07:30


Raw Story has a pretty succinct take on the deteriorating state of Rick Warren's mental health:

MSNBC's Rachel Maddow believes that the uproar over Barack Obama's selection of Pastor Rick Warren to deliver his inaugural invocation might have been subsiding by now, except that Warren himself -- very much like Reverend Jeremiah Wright last spring -- has stirred things up again with a video address in which he accuses his critics of being "Christophobes."

"Not only it is getting worse," commented Maddow, "it's getting weirder."

In the 22 minute message to his congregation placed on his website last Sunday, Warren first denied ever "equating gay partnership with incest and pedophilia" -- which Maddow quickly disproved with a clip of him doing just that -- and then went on to attack his critics for their "false accusations, attacks, outright lies, and hateful slander, and really a lot of hate speech."

"It's what I would call 'Christophobia.'" Warren concluded. "People who are afraid of any Christian."

"Might those people possibly just be Pastor Rick-o-phobes?" Maddow asked.

But there's a deeper story than Rick's mental ticks.

You see, here's what Christ said about homosexuals:


That's right.  Let me repeat that:


And that's just got to scare Pastor Rick, don'tcha think?

You betcha!  In fact, it already has....

Paul Rosenberg :: Christophobia??? Wait A Second, Fellah! YOU'RE The Christophobe!
As I discussed in my diary "Whatever Happened To 'Respect Is Earned?'", last weekend, Dan Radosh wrote:

Being disagreeable

Barack Obama is defending his invitation to Rick Warren with a plea for postpartisanship.

    What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues... That dialogue, I think, is a part of what my campaign's been all about, that we're never going to agree on every single issue. What we have to do is create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable, and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans.

Greg Seargant asks "why campaigning against division and polarization by picking an equally radical choice on the left to give the invocation would be politically unthinkable?"

Meanwhile, consider how agreeable Warren himself chose to be -- how open to dialogue -- after the gay group Soulforce prematurely announced that leaders of Warren's Saddleback church, perhaps including Warren and his wife Kay, had agreed to break bread with gay Christian families on Father's Day:

    We did not invite this group and I will not be meeting with them. They invited themselves to draw attention to their cross country publicity stunt. My staff has already told them that neither my wife nor I will meet with them for any discussion or debate.

Bear in mind that the Soulforce families were not asking to speak from the pulpit, or for Warren to publicly embrace them. They wanted a private conversation, to let Warren get to know some real people who were being hurt by his teachings and actions. And yet, not a chance.

But that's not just being disagreeable.  That's being Chistophobic!  Soulforce is a Christian organization. Those are other Christians  that Warren is apparent afraid to meet with.

Perhaps even more to the point, he's afraid to confront what they know--and he knows it too!  The fact that Jesus Christ never said anything against homorsexuals.

In fact, Soulforce has a pamplet, "What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality".   Early on, it says:

As you may know, biblical ignorance is an epidemic in the United States. A recent study quoted by Dr. Peter Gomes in The Good Book found that 38 percent of Americans polled were certain the Old Testament was written a few years after Jesus' death. Ten percent believed Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. Many even thought the epistles were the wives of the apostles.

This same kind of biblical ignorance is all too present around the topic of homosexuality. Often people who love and trust God's Word have never given careful and prayerful attention to what the Bible does or doesn't say about homosexuality.
For example, many Christians don't know that:

  • Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
  • The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
  • Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven't read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written.

The whole pamphlet is well worth reading.  But that one sentence: "Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior."

That sentence is priceless.

Because that's the sentence that Rick Warren is terrrified of.

Rick Warren: Christophobe!


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Pam's House Blend ran an account of the Soulforce-Rick Warren (4.00 / 1)
meeting:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...
As Jeff Lutes describes it, it was only after Newsweek published a note about the upcoming encounter that the plans for the meeting went downhill. Seriously creepy behavior for a purported great ideologue.

Hard To Get Much Creepier (0.00 / 0)
than being the loudmouth bigot we already know him to be, IMHO.

But, then, I'm just a DFH blogger.

Now, where are my PJs?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is an oppurtunistic bigot worse than a deeply felt one? (0.00 / 0)
Something for the experts to ponder...

[ Parent ]
I Think That Warren Gives Us The Best Of Both! (0.00 / 0)
And, of course, by "best", I mean "worst."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I just read Mel White's autobiography and his account in 1994 is the same as Jeff Lute's. (0.00 / 0)
The book is Stranger at the Gate.

[ Parent ]
Obama should invite a gay pastor (4.00 / 2)
to partner with warren at the inaguration, if really doesn't want to endorce this man's views.

Biblical ignorance indeed. (4.00 / 4)
As I recall, both Jesus and his Old Man had some very strong opinions on usury. Yet I have never seen a church that didn't have an endowment.

Montani semper liberi

So, When Jesus Drove The Money-Changers From The Temple... (4.00 / 1)
it wasn't in a Cadillac?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The 5,000 year lie (4.00 / 1)
Warren and others frequently use the phrase "5,000 year definition of marriage", which is never challenged.  A few notes on that 5,000 year old definition: the Mormons, big financial backers of prop 8 officially allowed polygamy just 120 years ago, and (reportedly) unofficially as recently as 70 years ago.  The Roman Catholic church allowed up to 10 wives in the years after the Thirty Years War (also known as the War to Kill Everyone Who Worships Jesus in a Different Way from Me).  In the time of Jesus, Jews were allowed to have mulitple wives.  And do you think that Rick Warren has ever read about King David and his wives.  He has?  Then he is a liar.  He lies every time he uses the "5,000 year old definition of marriage" line.  BTW, in colonial New England, there was no religious marriage ceremony.  None.  All marriages were civil.  All.

Busted! (4.00 / 2)
Paul, if FedEx keeps delivering barrels of fish and boxes of shotgun shells to your back door, people are gonna think you've joined the NRA.

And wipe that smile off your face, mister. Even if Rick Warren has decided to make a career out of putting on a suit and announcing that we haven't learned anything in the last 2,000 years, and even if the President-elect finds some hidden virtue in being a bit more than merely polite to the man, you take entirely too much pleasure in telling it like it is.

Now, if you were really civic-minded, you'd go help Senator What's-His-Nose find some economists -- credentialed economists, mind -- who still believe in the tooth fairy.


What I Can't Figure Out Is (0.00 / 0)
what makes the fish jump into the barrel of my shotgun.

Until the first time it happened, I had no idea what "shooting fish in a barrel" really meant.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
this sentence is priceless too (0.00 / 0)
Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers.

Real Christian believers don't follow Leviticus!


Sure Don't! God Hates Shrimp, But Christians Love It! (4.00 / 1)
Leviticus, Leschmiticus!

From God Hates Shrimp:

Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.




"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
can we try a stronger argument please? (0.00 / 0)
no, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. I remember a biblical scholar saying that in a congregation in Chicago back in the 70s and a woman responding with "I knew he was too damn liberal!"  

unfortunately it is not the best argument to make in fighting homophobia. Jesus didn't say anything about torture, nuclear weapons, or internet spam, either.


Dude! (0.00 / 0)
If you need a religious argument against internet spam, you're in a lot more trouble than I can handle.

No, seriously (what, that wasn't joke? oh, wasn't funny. Well...), this isn't about being "the best argument to make in fighting homophobia".  It's about punching this particular bigot with a particularly sharp punch in the schnauzer at this particular moment in time.

"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" --- The Greatest


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
of course it is not a joke (0.00 / 0)
i am addressing 2 issues at the same time.
is that difficult for you?

i agree we should take on Warren.
i am not interested here in spam.
i am saying the idea that Jesus did not specifically mention homosexuality is a weak argument, given the many other things he did not mention.
the issue is bigger than a quote here or a citation there.
we can not fall into that trap.


[ Parent ]
The Myth of the Killer App Argument (0.00 / 0)
You seem to think there's some killer app argument out there, and you're upset that I'm not making that argument.

Furthermore, you think that you're making a killer app argument by saying this.

I think you first need an existence proof for killer app arguments.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
what Jesus didn't say (0.00 / 0)
no, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. I remember a biblical scholar saying that in a congregation in Chicago back in the 70s and a woman responding with "I knew he was too damn liberal!"  

unfortunately it is not the best argument to make in fighting homophobia. Jesus didn't say anything about torture, nuclear weapons, or internet spam, either.


Jesus (0.00 / 0)
I'm liberal, but I'm not nearly as liberal as Jesus.

[ Parent ]
Soulforce (4.00 / 1)
That Soulforce pamphlet was fantastic.  It makes a much better Biblical case than I was expecting.  Personally, I rejected the concept of trying to make a Biblical case for most anything long ago, so I'm surprised how strong their case appears.

I was actually Born Again from roughly ages 13 through 20.  Eventually the conservatives convinced me their interpretation of the Bible was mostly correct, leading me to reject the Bible.  (And really, why should we be surprised that many Biblical authors were conservatives?)

Stepping back from personal views, I consider the Religious Left to be perhaps the single most important force in this country for restoring our morality and improving our politics.  So this is very good to see.


I Was Originally Planning To Do A Diary All About The Soulforce Pamphlet (0.00 / 0)
But then this whole circus just exploded and that started to seem sort of boring and pedantic by comparison.

Of course, I just love boring and pedantic, so I read the pamphlet eagerly & I have to agree with you.  Their case is really strong, and their tone is really centered.

Actually, that's a bit unfair.  It really wasn't boring and pedantic.  It was just... not sensationalistic.

I liked how he explained about Holiness codes, for example, by using an example from his own experience.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He actually is more like Jeremiah Wright than it first seems. (4.00 / 1)
I remember after watching the whole Bill Moyers interview, the whole speech at the Press Club, the Q&A after the speech at the Press Club, and then the subsequent coverage of the Q&A in all media, including lefty media, coming to a realization that people who are steeped deeply in their own world, such as Wright who was steeped deeply and completely in the world of the African-American Church, can sound insane when transplanted into a different context.  In the minds of political people, Wright was a foolish, childish buffoon at the Press Club that day.  Having spent the prior two hours letting him into my head just a bit, I could see that from his perspective, he was merely ridiculing people -- in this case, journalists -- who richly deserved it.  I was sympathetic to Wright, but eventually came to see that a mind like his just didn't make sense in the political discourse we have (which is a very troubling thing to realize).  The answers that were obviously right to him sounded unhinged to his audience, not just wrong in rational ways but in emotional ways too, angry at the wrong times, laughing at the wrong times, completely unpredictable and disconnected in the mind of his audience.

Rick Warren, while he is not nearly as admirable a person, is going through a similar thing here.  Having been an ardent evangelical as a teen, before I became the gay secular progressive that I am ten years later, I can say that I know the language of American evangelicalism reasonably well.  I haven't seen a lot of Rick Warren talking (I should go dig up that two minute clip everyone posted a week ago), but the sentences I see in print are all normal and sensible and even measured and appropriate for someone who lives in his world.  Within his own context, his is distinctly not a bigot and not hateful even, which is why he keeps saying so, much to our own amusement.  He actually directs charity to people with AIDS and willingly interacts with gay people, which is considerably more tolerant and loving than is common in his universe.

----- Comment interrupted when the cat I adopted yesterday decided to stop crying and climb directly onto my stomach, between me and the laptop.  Who can say no to a heartbroken cat?  Not me.  -----

Anyway, I've got to go to work now so I can't formulate this argument as carefully as I intended, but I'm sure everyone can see where I was going.  Within his own world, Rick Warren is not only sane, but on the generous and tolerant end of the scale.  In our world, Rachel Maddow can offer up his comments and they appear self-refuting, absurd, illogical, and in other instances they can even reach the deranged (Katrina as punishment for gays, for instance -- Warren didn't say that but others in his world did).  The problem is not that Rick Warren the person is a bigot.  In fact, relative to the rest of his milieu, he's noteworthy for being more accepting than most.  The problem is that Rick Warren's mental universe is, to our point of view, wrong to the point of being hurtful and even dangerous.  (They think much the same of us, natch.)  Our conflict is with a thought-system that is wrong, hurtful and dangerous, not with any individual.  And if we decide to try to humiliate Rick Warren, for instance, it should be because we think it will improve our position in the war against bad ideas, not because we think of Rick Warren himself as anything other than an effective advocate of bad ideas.  Because actually, Rick Warren the person isn't particularly a bigot.  It's Rick Warren's beliefs that are.

(And the cat returns!  No further editing!)


You're Right (0.00 / 0)
That it's not Warren personally.  But he does put himself in such a prominent position that he's literally demanding to be accepted on his own terms, without question, or else be laughed at to his face.

It is, in short, a delusional worldview.

Wright's may be as insular.  But it's not delusional at all, so far as I've seen.

Cat got a name yet?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think it's gonna be Buster. (4.00 / 1)
Which is profoundly silly.  But his first name that I know of was Batman (obviously inflicted by a small child), and then his next owner eased him into Bruce (as in Bruce Wayne), and I'm unwilling to have my cat be named Bruce.  Buster preserves the B and R sounds, and was my dad's nickname growing up, and is silly enough to belong to a pretty silly (and also headstrong) cat.  And I smile inside when I say it, which is really about the best reason I can think of to choose a name.

But I may change my mind still.  It's not like the cat will notice.


[ Parent ]
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