Sometimes "Bias" Is Called For

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 15:30


A few hysterics have been trying to peddle the line that an unnamed leftists are just as biased against Israel as the M$M is biased against Palestinians.  It is not enough, in their view, that people like myself denounce violence on both sides.  We must denounce it with equal vigor.  And they will be the judges of whether our vigor is sufficient. Otherwise, we are but a mirror image of the warmonger "pro-Israeli" M$M, and no better than they are.

There are so many things wrong with this sort of "holier-than thou" false equivilency stance, that we could talk of nothing else for days on end.  But the bottom line is really pretty simple.

You see, I think it's pretty obvious, and quite rational why a progressive blog, particularly one with a significant Jewish presence, would focus much more attention on Isreali state violence rather than Palestinian violence--reasons in addtion to the obvious fact that Israeli state violence is so vastly more extensive than Palestinian violence, however indiscriminate violence on both sides may be.

The reason we focus more on Isreali state violence is that we are morally, legally and politically responsible for that violence in ways that we are not responsible for the Palestinian violence.  And if we truly wish to end the violence on both sides, then the way to do that is to work strenuously to end the violence on our side--and that will give us moral standing and credibility to call for ending violence on the Palestinian side as well.

A wee more specificity and detail on the flip

Paul Rosenberg :: Sometimes "Bias" Is Called For
What finally pushed me over the edge to blog about this was this comment and self-response by vastleft in my diary Beyond Gaza--A One State Solution And More, which pairs a false equivalency argument with a denial that that's what he's doing.  The false equivilency should be pretty obvious: instituionally biased reporting pretending to be objective that floods every channel of communications simply cannot be compared to individual political commentary on a mid-sized political blog using common context-free standards.

Here goes:

I'm not arguing for equivalency  

In fact, I'm the sworn enemy of false equivalency.

But the fact remains that in lefty circles, you'd almost never get the sense that bad acts by Palestinians are deplored, or that they play a role in fanning the flames.

I am decrying two parallel forms of limited-context reporting and analysis, one on the the right (and in mainstream media and political circles) that is blind to the situation on the ground for Palestinians and one on the left that is blind to the situation on the ground for Israelis.

I make no claim that the crimes of both sides are equivalent. I am just frustrated that no one's reporting seems well-rounded and fair.

by: vastleft @ Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 08:41

To which I responded:

When A "Fact" Isn't Actually A Fact  (0.00 / 0)

But the fact remains that in lefty circles, you'd almost never get the sense that bad acts by Palestinians are deplored, or that they play a role in fanning the flames.

We're arguing facts. You're arguing feelings as "facts".

Bit of a difference there.

But not before vastleft responded to himself:

See Glenn on how the MSM approach works (0.00 / 0)

(Which is indistinguishable from the right-wing and mainstream political view):

http://www.salon.com/opinion/g...

Now, look at the leftysphere and see how rarely Palestinian actions are scrutinized. Apparently their suicide bombs and rocket attacks are wholly benign and justified and play no discernible role in the ongoing strife. How often in a lefty blog do you see a photo of wounded or mourning Israelis? Do they not bleed? Or do they deserve it?

It seems that acknowledging the humanity of Israelis is off the table in our world, just as acknowledging the humanity of Palestinians is off the table in that other world.

To give a shit about the victims of Palestinian attacks is tantamount to treason in the left, and it's reliably and instantly contorted into being a rationalization for Israeli misdeeds. I used to admire my fellow lefties for their gift for nuance, but the handling of I/P issues and of the "death march" 2008 primary have given me pause.

by: vastleft @ Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:36

One just has to ask, what purpose would it serve to recycle images of Palestinian-inflicted violence against Israeli Jews that's been plastered all over the M$M?  Vastleft seems to think it would show that we care about the victims.  And the failure to recycle such images shows that we don't care.  This is, to put it mildly, absurd.  It is worse than that.  It is a morally obscene accusation.

The reason that people post images in blogs are widely varied, to be sure.  But one of the most common ones is to remind folks of things that the M$M either wants us to forget, or simply under-emphasizes.  This certainly does apply to the Palestinian victims of Israeli state violence, and it certainly does not apply to the Jewish Israeli victims of Palestinian violence.

There, in the simplest of terms, you have a completely unbiased explanation for a "biased" appearance.  It says absolutely nothing about biased attitudes, for the simple reason that there is no evidence of such attitudes.

Oh, sure there are some rare individuals who are biased to the point of being indifferent to Israeli suffering.  There are some so disgusted with decades upon decades of this same wretched dehumanization of the Palestinian people that they have become desensitized and dehumanized as well.  But these people are nowhere near the majority.  They aren't even a significant minority. And the only way that false-equivilence advocates like vastleft can pretend otherwise is by jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions that take no heed whatsoever of the obvious differences between the nature of discourse in two totally different types of media.

Finally, there are very good reasons why a progress blogosphere with an over-representation of Jews (look at how we vote, hint! hint! hint!) should look "biased" by vastleft's context-free standards.  In contrast to his feelings-as-facts, here are a few actual facts to keep in mind that help explain why certain sorts of discussions go on here and elsewhere in the blogosphere:

(1) We're Americans.

(2) Many of us are Jews.

(3) America supports Isreal to the tune of several billion dollars a year.

(4) As Americans we have both the influence (however small) and the obligaiton to participate in changing our country's policies, which support the murderous acts of the Israeli state.

(5) As Americans we have no such parallel influence over Palestinian violence.

(6) As Jews, we have the moral obligation to object to immoral acts done in our name.

(7) As Jews, we have no such moral obligation to object to immoral acts done against other Jews.  In fact, the only way to have moral credibility in objecting to such acts is to concentrate the bulk of our attention on the immoral acts of other Jews.  That way, when we do denounce Palestinian violence, we are not guilty of special pleading.

None of any of the above should be taken as a justification or excuse for devaluing Jewish life or Jewish suffering.  And it's a hideoous slander to accuse Jews who care about other people--as the Torah instructs us--of not caring about our own.

Indeed, we care about others precisely because we care about our own.  This is both because it is certain that violence done to others will come back to us, and because doing violence to others in itself does violence to ourselves--even when it is absolutely necessary.  


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"M$M" (4.00 / 4)
An excellent acronym!

About the substance of your diary...

As nearly as I can calculate it, about 17 people have been killed by rocket attacks on southern Israel in the relevant time-frame. The figure for Israel's attack on Gaza seems to be about 300.

Is that approximately correct?

Maybe I'm just an arithmetic-obsessed gear-head, but this fantastic disproportionality is one of the most salient features of what's happening in Gaza now, for me.

Maybe an argument can be made for the old-school justice of "an eye for an eye," but 300 for 17 is madness.


Connection (0.00 / 0)
I sort of forgot to connect that comment with your diary, but the idea was that the supposedly "even-handed" attitude of the M$M is out of place when one side is so disproportionately destructive.

[ Parent ]
None since Israel broke the ceasefire on Nov. 4 (4.00 / 2)
One Israeli was killed by the rockets on Saturday, after the bombardment of Gaza began. Last I heard, the ratio stands at roughly 330:1 killed, 1000:6 wounded.

The Israel Project lists 16 Israeli deaths from the Qassams since they began in 2001:

http://www.theisraelproject.or...


[ Parent ]
the chorus breaks down (4.00 / 6)
(1) any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.
(2) any Jew criticizing Israel (such as my wife) is a self-hating Jew.

The circularity of the above is pathetically obvious.  The reason Zionism has gotten away with it so long is that it has been broadcast in massive, lockstep chorus, not because of its cogency.

Somehow the chorus isn't working.  CNN's Rick Sanchez grills a female supporter of the Palestinians as if he were the Spanish Inquisition, and she rips him a new one.  And as he drones on, the screen is showing pictures of the carnage.

And suddenly, suddenly, inexplicably, people are noticing that the emperor has no clothes.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Thank you for clear thinking clear writing and a commitment to peace. (4.00 / 11)
I am grateful for the dedication you show day in day out. This is some of the best writing on the meta discussion about the discussion of how to contribute to ending the disastrous polices that are prolonging the destruction of Palestine/Israel. As it is also a follow up to the actual discussion is all the better. Thank you, your plea contains a clear eyed, heart felt, call for an end to the policies prolonging the violence as succinctly as your examination here places your speech in the context of your social voice and personal responsibility.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


That responsibility does cut both ways (0.00 / 0)
If we are responsible for what Israel's doing wrong here, we are also responsible for the implications for public safety of what we suggest.  Even if you think the Israelis are dead wrong in their approach, I suspect that you would concede that the desire for public safety is at least partial motivation.

The rockets (while they do completely shut down life in the areas they affect) are not that deadly, but it's worth remembering that Hamas has about 1000 Israeli scalps collected during the bombing campaigns of a few years back.  The core problem has been the tightness of the blockade.  Well, that blockade, as much human suffering and damage as it's caused, made it a hell of a lot harder to get out teenagers trained and equipped to blow up people in city buses.

What we do now can help very much save Palestinian lives.  It can also help get Israelis killed.


True, But This Is Hardly Unique (0.00 / 0)
BushCo had good justifications for many of its actions as well.  I'm not just being cavalier here.  There are costs of respecting human rights in the short run.  But there are enormous benefits in the long run.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I agree, up to a point (4.00 / 1)
I would not be surprised if you have family in Israel, so this is likely not going to be completely theoretical.

Bush's war in Iraq was a war of choice.  Israel's war with Hamas (of which this is only the latest round) is not voluntary in the same way.

I agree that there are great benefits of respect for human right.  For example, the right to cross borders unhindered is such a right.

The cost for a more humane border crossing strategy, as I pointed out, and as you know, came to more than 1000 people out of a population of about 6 million.  That may be a short run cost, but to paraphrase J.M.Keynes, in the short run, all those people are dead.  That's a lot to ask of Israelis, and since shutting down border crossings cut down those killings to a trickle, it isn't too surprising that there isn't much support for loosing things up.  Unless, I think, Hamas' leadership is willing to reassure the Israeli public at least a little.

You're probably also reading at least some of the Israeli press, so you'll know that there are also Israelis who think Ehud Barack has lost his damn mind.  I generally agree with Daniel Levi's piece in the Huff Post, which is not far from this position.

But... generally speaking, I don't find you glib.  The comparison with Bush's war, is, well, glib.  I suspect you can do better than that.


[ Parent ]
This Is Even MORE A War Of Choice (0.00 / 0)
Since it was Israel's past choices that created Hamas in the first place.

Though, come to think of it, the same could be said of Sadam, though not Iraq itself.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's a war of choice. But protecting their public is not. (4.00 / 1)
I recommend again to you Daniel Levy's piece in the Huff Post, which goes through the series of stupidities since the withdrawal from Gaza.  According Levi, the better part of that stupidity being Olmert's government and the Bush Admin, which decided to treat this as of it was part of their damn GWOT.

Something needed to be done well shy of the end of the truce, since if things got to that point, there wasn't much to keep things from going down the path we're on now.  But Hamas, apparently, has been fighting internally between their political and military wings, with the military wing generally on top.  It took something like 20 years to build up the kind of people-to-people links between Fatah and Israelis that made diplomacy in the 1990s workable.  You have likely been to any number of quiet meetings between Jewish progressives in the States, and Palestinian activists.  As have I.  But you probably have never met with anyone in a similar meeting with Hamas supporters.  Hamas supporters don't do the the touchy feeling stuff.

Hamas has mostly made do with interfering with that process, and since they held that diplomacy was useless and needed to be curtailed, now that they are control, they are discovering that they don't have those people-to-people links, and they don't know how to establish them.  And the people who are trying are at a political disadvantage.

I personally would have preferred if the US and the Israelis had given Hamas the space to establish themselves after the elections, even if that meant allowing them to arm themselves up the way the Hezbollah people did in Lebanon.  But I'm not as willing to be, once again, glib about it.  The lives people are risking are not my own.  Nor yours.

Generally, the thing I like most about your posts is that you know your history, and you make use of it.  I gather you're angry as hell at what you're seeing on the news.  But consider gathering back your wits and cut it with the "same could be said" shit.  You're better than that.


[ Parent ]
We're Supposed To Be The Grown-Ups, Right? (4.00 / 3)
And the Palestinians are the children?

Well, guess who's legally responsible when the children get into trouble?

My point:  All of this could have and should have been foreseen by the Isreali political establishment.  It was clearly foreseeable, and we're the ones with the stable political institutions and the discursive space and resources to work this all out.  But we utterly failed to do so.  That is why the responsibility lies with us.

I know there are many complications.  There are always many complications.  And I don't for a minute mean to suggest a zero-sum view of responsibiity here.  There is more than enough to go around, and everyone has earned their share.  But we have earned the lion's share and done so rather handsomely.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm a "rational actors" kind of guy (0.00 / 0)
What's this about "And the Palestinians are the children?".  Ain't in my post.  Don't read it in.

No, they are a sophisticated lot, many Western educated people who understand something about press management, and a great deal more about the mechanics of the war they are fighting.

There's a different argument whether they (or most of the Israelis) really understand the thinking of the other side.  This is an old IR problem, but it applies here.  Since misinterpreting what the other side intends is a bit piece of the problem both sides.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, But I Didn't Say That Was Your Argument (0.00 / 0)
I was just riffing on an all-to-common rhetorical trope, turning it back on itself.

I actually think that the argument about how long it took to find someone to negotiate with is hokum.  If you really want to negotiate you can find a partner, stat.  If you don't, you can't.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh c'mon (4.00 / 1)
"Since it was Israel's past choices that created Hamas in the first place."

You know this is disingenuous. The point is that there is a real national security threat to Israel- rockets are flying into the state, which makes it clearly less a war of choice than Iraq.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with 99% of what you are arguing here, im just saying it hurts the legitimacy of your argument when you have to win every subpoint at 100% strength.


the funk can move and the funk can remove- dig?


[ Parent ]
It's Not About Winning Subpoints (4.00 / 2)
Long-term thinking about consequences is the very essence of my argument.  The failure to think things through is what allows impulsive fools to parade themselves around as heroes of the people, when all they produce is ultimately more and more bloodshed without end.

How is that a subpoint?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Would a citation help? (0.00 / 0)
From a comment by Vosh:

http://openleft.com/showCommen...


[ Parent ]
Whoa ... (0.00 / 0)
Israel's past choices created Hamas? Come again? You want to step in behind that statement? I'm no shrinking violet in criticizing Israel, but that's ridiculous. There's a lot of moral responsibility theory that has to be thrown out the window to get to that point.

[ Parent ]
Hamas Is Barely 20 Years Old (4.00 / 2)
Israel had 20 years after the '67 War to make a just and lasting peace with the Palestinians.  It spent those 20 years finding excuses not to.  The first Intifada--during which Hamas was formed--was a natural and foreseeable outcome of that 20 years of excuse-making.  The creation of Hamas itself was likewise a foreseeable result.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I/P is not a progressive issue (4.00 / 1)
I want to make a couple points in this post:

First, the I/P question is simply not a progressive issue.  Yes, the asshole Likud conservatives in Israel are at least as bad and often worse than the asshole Republicans here.  Yes, Israel has made grave mistakes in dealing with the Palestinians and their other Arab neighbors (see the second Lebanon war for a salient example).  However, Hamas is absolutely the worse of these two evils.  They specifically target civilians and children.  They oppress and kill dissenters (see their takeover of the PLO).  They are vitriolically antisemitic.  Justifying Hamas's actions is the antithesis of progressive ideals.  

Second, comparing body counts to see who is more culpable is a ridiculous way of determining who is morally right or wrong.  Clearly, intent is a big factor.  Israel's military does not specifically target civilians and their deaths are an unintended (though inevitable) side effect of killing Hamas "security forces" (as the traditional media is calling them). In fact, most of the people killed by the Israeli strikes so far are Hamas forces.  Innocent people have died too.  It's awful, but that is the effect of housing military and paramilitary forces in residential areas.

There is a good reason why none of the front-pagers at dailykos have yet commented on I/P:  This isn't our (e.g., the progressive's) fight.  It distracts our attention and splinters our ranks.  There simply isn't a clear-cut progressive position on the struggle.    


Nonsense! Nothing Could Be Farther From The Truth (4.00 / 10)
Israel was far and away one of the most progressive nations on earth before the 1967 war.  It had a Peace Corps second only to the US, and was deeply involved in development assistance all across Africa.  That hasn't been the case for 40 years now.  Getting Israel out of its reactionary death spiral after all this time would be a tremendous boon for progressive politics on a world-wide level.

You want to argue all the minutua that comes as a result of failing to take a clear progressive stand much, much earlier in the struggle.  But that is merely accepting the way that reactionary forces have defined the issue.  And nothing could possibly be more reactionary than accepting that.

Is Hamas horrible?  Absolutely!  By why does Hamas even exist?  Because of progressives' repeated failure to step up and solve the problem in the first place.  Continuing to evade responsibility will only mean that the options on both sides will continue to get worse and worse and worse.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the response n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Hamas exists (0.00 / 0)
because in a poor society like that with little hope, the strongest, most violent, most bombastic force wins out. And it sustains itself because it's leaders are undermined by peace and promoted to greater power by war.

I suppose you could make the macro argument that Gaza is poor because of Israeli economic policy-making, but that's extremely arguable (it's also very corrupt) and a different subject.


[ Parent ]
State of Siege (4.00 / 5)
FYI, Gaza has been under a state of siege for more than two years now. Starved of potable water, food, fuel to cook with and medicines. No work, no healthcare, water treatment plants bombed, sewage in the streets. Hundreds have died (many women and children) because they can't get medicines. Power outages all the time, which makes keeping perishable food (when those items can be had) almost impossible. That's the intent, of course.

So one might say that yes, the poverty there has something to do with that, without even considering corruption, which has it's own complexities.

Collective punishment can have that affect.

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
What would happen if ... (0.00 / 0)
...Hamas quit calling for the destruction of Israel and stopped sending rockets into Israel?

McCain on the minimum wage

[ Parent ]
What would have happened if (4.00 / 3)
the citizens of Lexington and Concord had stopped shooting at the British?

[ Parent ]
You have picked a side in the revolution? (0.00 / 0)
So I guess what you are saying is that it is a revolution and you want Hamas to win?

What would happen if Hamas had the bigger weapons and Israel had none?



McCain on the minimum wage


[ Parent ]
The question isn't how I view it (4.00 / 2)
The question is how Hamas views it. If the only alternative to firing rockets into Israel is to accept the Israelis' characterization of them as a conquered people who should know their place, perhaps, given our history, we shouldn't be surprised that they choose rockets.

Whether you or I like it or not, the humiliations offered them by the Israelis since 1948 have gone far beyond the taxation without representation which led our own ancestors to grab their muskets and head to the rude bridge so central to the American legend of national identity.

The Israelis would like us to overlook this. Hamas does not overlook it, and we shouldn't either. If you want to know what I think about what the Israelis or Palestinians should do -- or we should do, for that matter -- you have to ask another kind of question.


[ Parent ]
More to the point (4.00 / 3)
What would have happened if the British had been armed with F-16s mounted with cluster bombs, helicopter gunships, guided missile frigates, long-range artillery, and 70 ton main battle tanks, and the citizens of Lexington and Concord didn't stop shooting at them.

Oh, and the French? What if the French had issued communiques defending the right -- the inalienable right -- of British troops to defend themselves when fired upon.


[ Parent ]
That's Just Pure BS (4.00 / 5)
Hamas exists because Israel wasted 20 years after the '67 War making excuses about why it couldn't make peace.  If you make an entire generation grow up in a state of colonial oppression, you are going to end up with something more or less like Hamas.  That's just what happens.

You can engage in all the name-calling you want, but that's precisely why Hamas exists: Israel spent 20 years name-calling the PLO instead of deciding to make peace, and then they ended up with Hamas as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Colonialism (4.00 / 3)
The standard argument is that colonialism destroys both sides.  The "master" is slowly corrupted and becomes a harsh occupier who loses the subtleties of his/her soul.  Of couse, that was written re: the occupation of the colonial French primarily in North Africa but it applied as well to other places and other times.  It certainly was frequently referenced to the US in Vietnam.

Well, we are still fighting that war and its offshoots at home 30+ years after the helicopters left Saigon.  That was a side show compared to the occupation of Lebanon and Israel's role in Gaza.  The strange thing is that if Israel is to be free to set its own course it desperately needs to shed Palestinian population.  With it, it becomes either a multi-cultural society with two major religions or a society of occupier and occupied.  Neither course is promising.

From a safe distance, no return but no occupation seems the best way to go.  But what do I know on this one?  


[ Parent ]
Let's not use Daily Kos as the standard-bearer (4.00 / 6)
One of the reasons I love this site is because it's NOT the Daily Kos.

On the broader issue: the United States government is lending its full support to Israel in its actions against the Palestinians; it is a direct accomplice to Israel's crimes. This is a perverse and immoral use of American taxpayer money and this is therefore most definitely a progressive issue.  


[ Parent ]
Rhetoric (0.00 / 0)
I agree; it's nice to have dKos alternatives.  I love it and this site.

I think it's a stretch to say the Israel's actions are criminal and that supporting Israel is "perverse and immoral."  Many of us do not see it that way.  Self-defense is morally-justifiable, even if it entails killing civilians in the process.  This isn't to say that this current fight is morally-justified. I think that remains to be determined.


[ Parent ]
They are definitely war crimes (4.00 / 8)
Richard Falk, Princeton professor and eminent authority on international law:

"The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war. Those violations include ... Collective Punishment ... Targeting civilians ... Disproportionate military response ...

"Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response."

Just because the Israeli government slaps the label "Self Defense" on something doesn't exempt it from the strictures of international law. If one accepts the premise that the Palestinians are always the aggressor and Israel is always the victim, many of Israel's actions might appear justified, but of course that is a completely false premise.


[ Parent ]
How is a nation supposed to defend itself or its people (4.00 / 1)
if the enemy in question IS a civilian population? Or at least is indistinguishable from it? Is that it? No defense is allowable? Remember, those rocket attacks into southern Israel kill Israelis all the time.

[ Parent ]
Ending the illegal occupation (4.00 / 4)
would be a pretty good first step.

It is sort of absurd to treat Israel's attacks on "the enemy" in Gaza as "self-defense." I'm sure Hamas regards its rocket attacks as self-defense, don't you think?  


[ Parent ]
Self-defense? (4.00 / 6)
Are you willing to apply that same argument to the Palestinian position?

It's not perverse or immoral to support Israel (I do as well, but I'm not liking it right now), but to do so while ignoring almost all of reality certainly isn't anything approaching ethical or honest. War crimes are being committed as we type these notes. This isn't some fantastical notion or a set of avant garde policy ideas. These are concepts that were laid down a half century ago. Start with the Nuremberg trials.

Self-defense is morally-justifiable, even if it entails killing civilians in the process.

I trust you probably don't realize it, but this is the language of a fanatic. When you can blithely talk about the need to kill civilians, you're taking an awfully big step. But we seem to have a lot of fanatics in this country, as this is all we hear in the media this week. But I'd suggest you can't morally justify killing civilians and still be moral. Sure, it happens even in the most justifiable wars (which is only a few), but that still doesn't make it "moral."

War is and always will be the Last, Worst, Option. War is murder and as such is almost never "moral." Especially when one is the aggressor and is using methods guaranteed to create lots and lots of civilian casualties, as this one is. They're using our GBU-39s we sold them in September and just delivered a couple weeks ago.

So when we go to war or support others in their aggression, let's at least dispense with this notion that it's somehow moral. It may be necessary, as it was in WW2, but even then it was rarely, if ever, moral. When we kid ourselves that mass murder is somehow moral, atrocities are just around the corner. It would be better if we could just learn to live with the fact that we're really not all that moral when it comes to this subject. Even when it's actually necessary to do. Murder is not moral, even when it's justifiable (self-defense).

I'm not a pacifist, by the way. I'm just a realist. We can't possibly deal with the subject of warfare in real terms unless we're really willing to accept that even in the best of circumstances, we're still doing something horrible. If we're not willing to deal with that, then we shouldn't be doing it.

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
And each and every Palestinian movement will fail the test (4.00 / 17)
It's amazing, but it appears that each and every Palestinian movement and agency and representative and government has failed to be worthy of negotiations with Israel.

Oh, sure, elsewhere in the world you have negotiations and peace settlements between governments and parties where one or both sides are morally unsound, murderous thugs, etc.

But that's because in those contexts, it's understood that the warring and disputing parties negotiate because they are the ones warring and disputing.

So, this time it'll be because Hamas is a bunch of gangsters;  and while true, they are also the elected representatives of the Palestinians.  Of course, Fatah before them was unacceptable, except for a small time period around the disaster-bound Oslo negotiations.  And before Fatah the PLO was the problem.  And before the PLO it was the Arab League.

And if somehow Hamas falls and some uglier party crawls out from under the debris, then suddenly it will be their fault that Israeli militarists are rejecting final status negotiations.

Israelis too are sick of this crap.  They're tired of hearing about how they have 'no negotiating partner' because one or more of the parties to be negotiated with include thugs and murderers among their ranks and their sub-organizations.  They watched their government blow the hell out of Lebanon again 2 years ago, with the following benefit that the hand of Hizbullah was strengthened on the ground of Southern Lebanon even more.

The Gazans?  They're barely alive after 2 years of punishing sanctions that no one seems to give the slightest damn about.

Hell, even human rights workers on the ground in Darfur / Sudan have impressed upon the necessary gains of the negotiations among groups of unspeakable violence and detestable evil.  It's not fair, and it certainly would be nicer if the angels / extraterrestrials came down and replaced all the morally inferior parties with better ones.

But that's how it works -- the parties in conflict negotiate not because one party approves of the other, but because they are the parties in conflict.


[ Parent ]
I also cannot recommend enough emphasizing debate WITHIN Israel (4.00 / 9)
Although in no way do I have to condition my own intellectual processes on what Israeli Jewish (or any other) citizens are thinking, it is my experience that it is a huge, huge surprise to my fellow Americans that large numbers (whether that be a small minority or majority, proportionately) of Israeli Jews criticize Israeli establishment militarism.

Of course, the internet is a huge boon to this ideological clarification, since now you can easily quote from Israeli writers and publications.

In fact, many of the so-called "defenders" of "Israel" seem to me to care nothing about "Israel" itself, or what in fact would be good or bad for its Israeli Jewish, Israeli Arab, or occupied Palestinian inhabitants.

A lot of people "care" about Israel in the same way that they "cared" about the USA in cheering for Bush Jr's march to invade Iraq.  Supporting the militarist cause is seen as supporting the state, and supporting the state is seen as supporting its people, and dissenting from one is to harm them all.

The crowd which is usually called "pro-Israel" in the U.S. is happy to continue a situation of instability and insecurity and death for Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, because what they love is their attraction to Israeli militarists, and the fantasy war they are happy to see continue.

It's not dissimilar to the way in which the 28%-ers scream loudest about how they "love" America more than anyone else, yet they are most happy when their right wing colleagues are working to destroy our nation, our economy, and our people as the Reaganites have for the last 28 years.


Criticism of Israel's government (4.00 / 5)
is far more taboo in the United States than it is in Israel.

It is really a very strange phenomenon.  


[ Parent ]
There is the issue of "skin in the game" (4.00 / 1)
Certainly, there's a big neocon contingent in the Jewish community (in absolute numbers; they are in fact a minority -- just a ridiculously vocal one), and those people will try to shout you down.  It's what they do; in Jewish organizations, I'll tell you frankly that they behave the same way.

But there's another side of it, which is more relevant in talking about Jewish progressives.  A lot of us have spent at least a little time in Israel, or have family there, or both.  Many of us feel very honestly that there are no good solutions to the problems there, and certainly no simple ones.  And we're acutely aware that it's one thing to talk about "taking risks for peace" from the comfort and safety of the states, and saying "taking risks for peace" when you have 2 boys in high school who are trying to figure out what kind of army service they want to do.  I have a nephew finishing up his service now, and it's reasonable to assume that he's busy right now.  I worry for him, and I worry for my brother and sister-in-law.

Between those worries on one hand, and the very angry and sometimes self righteous moralizing I hear, especially from folks from new left sorts of backgrounds, I get a little cross sometimes with people who are proposing things that are not only likely to get Israelis killed, but are likely to get Palestinians killed as well.  Lots of people think this conflict is a lot simpler than it really is.  And simple in this cause is dead, dead wrong.


[ Parent ]
But It IS Very Simple (4.00 / 2)
That's what's so maddening.  It's both very simple and incredibly complex at the same time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Thanks To Pacifica Radio (4.00 / 6)
I have been quite aware of the internal Isreali debates as far back as the 1960s when I was a teenager.  But you're absolutely right, it's now ridiculously easy to be aware of these debates in detail and in real time.  Our ignorance now is a matter of choice.

In fact, ironically, the vitality of dissent within Isreal is the strongest argument there is for regarding Isreal as particularly worth caring about, regardless of your religion or anything else.  It really is unique.  And it's the cantankerous Jews over there (my counterparts) that make it so.  There are also, thank God, a few cantankerous Arabs and specifically Palestinians out there as well.  But they haven't been so lucky with their govenments and civil societies.  So we have to make the most of what we have, since it is, however shabby, the best thing we have going right now to fight for something far, far better, which is only what all our children deserve.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Are you spell checking your post? (0.00 / 0)
I find the "Isreal" thing a bit distracting.  You gonna keep doing that?

[ Parent ]
Sorry 'Bout That (0.00 / 0)
Both I and my computer have been sick for about a week now.  (My computer somewhat longer, actually.) Meaning I've been a bit distracted from the moment I've woken up each morning.

I guess it's just my funny little way of sharing the love.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
These are such obvious points (4.00 / 7)
it's sad they even have to be pointed out.

The principle behind the idea that we cannot talk about Israel's crimes without a perfectly balanced discussion of the evils of Hamas would also mean that we couldn't talk about Abu Ghraib without a fair and balanced expression of outrage about the atrocities of the Iraqi insurgents. We couldn't talk about the illegality of Bush's invasion of Iraq without also lamenting Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

Of course, given the shortage of coverage in the corporate press about the crimes of the U.S. and its allies, the net result will be a disproportionate share of attention dedicated to the wrongdoings of others, and a comparatively minor amount of outrage directed towards the wrongs that we actually bear some responsibility for and control over. But at least the New Republic-ans will be happy, right?*

*Just kidding, of course; they don't want Israeli atrocities to be treated on a par with Palestinian crimes. They want Israeli atrocities ignored altogether!


? (0.00 / 0)
illegality of Bush's invasion of Iraq without also lamenting Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.
Bush Sr?

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Stay classy, Paul! (0.00 / 0)
When I attempt to bow out of the mutual time sink that our interactions of the past few days have proven -- promising not to read or comment on your future posts -- you frontpage a post that slams me (and which continues your misrepresentation of my perspective and comments).

If I have some time to waste a little later on, I'll favor your readers with a more detailed response.



Don't Flatter Yourself (0.00 / 0)
You just happened to be the most flagrant in expressing the contradictions in a low-hangning-fruit manner.

But, as Json C says above, "These are such obvious points it's sad they even have to be pointed out."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You've changed the argument here... (0.00 / 0)
But I attempted to see if vastleft's "feelings" about a lack of interest in Hamas attacks on Israel here on Open Left were correct, and it seems they are.  If you have a better method of searching, please let me know.

But the lack of coverage of rocket attacks into Israel isn't the main part of your post.  You claim that there is no need for us to write about Palestinian violence on Israel because that's already covered by the MSM.  Frankly, I'm not seeing it: again and again, I hear about how the body count is overwhelmingly lopsided with numbers like 300 to 1, and how Israel's response was "disproportionate" (I did like one snippet of a comment on Ezra's site: "What would a proportionate response be, to fire rockets indiscriminately into the Gaza Strip?"  To be clear, I don't think Israel's response is the correct one, but I also don't think allowing its citizens to cower under daily rocket attacks is resonable or, frankly, moral.  Ask yourself if it would be acceptable to have to live every day of your life under the threat of rocket attacks, even if "nobody died").

Of course, the reason for this is that I no longer read news from the MSM.  They have been shown to be an unreliable source.  This "supplement" theory you're presenting ("we're showing facts the MSM aren't showing, so that in the end people can synthesize them to get a balanced view") doesn't jive with how people actually get their news: they get it from sources they trust, and ignore it from sources they don't trust.  I think the point vastleft was trying to make is that, by discounting the real threat people in Sderot felt, it makes your source less trustworthy, to the point where people you might be able to get to listen to you will shut you out instead.

Mind you, in one respect that would be fine by me, and I say this as someone who has plenty of your longer articles on my mental reading list.  But a one state solution?  When you get that International Law thing really humming, to the point where it actually works, then we can talk about not needing a Jewish refuge.  Good luck with that.

One last thing.  I find this baffling:

(7) As Jews, we have no such moral obligation to object to immoral acts done against other Jews.  In fact, the only way to have moral credibility in objecting to such acts is to concentrate the bulk of our attention on the immoral acts of other Jews.  That way, when we do denounce Palestinian violence, we are not guilty of special pleading.

I honestly can't believe you wrote this, Paul.  We may disagree on things here or there, but I regard you as a man of conscience.  To silence oneself because of concern about some unformed accusation of "special pleading", well, it kind of turns this conversation on its head:  I think this accusation of "special pleading" is just a feeling you have, and even if it existed, so what?  Immoral is immoral, and it's our duty to speak out regardless who the actors are.


That's not what he said (4.00 / 5)
or at least, that's not what I understood him to be saying. He wasn't saying that Jews should be silent about crimes against other Jews - quite the opposite. But if Jews want to immunize themselves from charges of special pleading when they denounce violence perpetrated against Jews, they had better be scrupulous about denouncing violence perpetrated by Jews.  

[ Parent ]
This Whole Comment Seems Terribly Muddled To Me (4.00 / 2)
Your frames of reference just keep jumping around every couple of seconds.  But you can't get around the fact that commentary and news reporting simply can't be judged by the same standards.  They are, quite simply, different kinds of discourse with different rules, different purposes, and different expectations.  When you arbitrarily impose your own rules, purposes and expectations, then you are, de facto, engaging in a biased evaluation.  And no matter what else you are doing in the above comment, you are most assuredly doing this--engaging in a biased evaluation.

As for your final objection, Jason C. has answered the main thrust quite well.   However, there's a severe distortion that he did not speak to.  The first sentence says, "As Jews, we have no such moral obligation..."  The "such" refers to the moral obligation spelled out in #6:

(6) As Jews, we have the moral obligation to object to immoral acts done in our name.

By ignoring that context, you have utterly perverted the meaning of what I wrote.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Regarding different forms of discourse (0.00 / 0)
I'm not that polished a writer, and I had a lot of different things to say, so it's not surprising that it would seem muddled.  I'll try splitting things up into smaller posts.  Here's a (hopefully) more concise explanation of my position about different forms of discourse:

- The line between news and commentary is thinner than you're implying (e.g., was news ever immune to Overton's Window?), and the rules and expectations for each type of discourse change over time.  In fact, I argue that the rules and expectations for blog discourse aren't firm at all, and are changing rapidly.

- The norms of a blog are, in the end, what the posters and commenters deem it to be, but don't pretend that there's a non-arbitrary set of norms that you're following.  In the end, it's (partially) your blog, so you can feel free to emphasize whatever you want.

- Just because we can emphasize whatever we want doesn't mean we should.  If we're going to brag about being a "reality-based community", then we ought to consider the entirety of reality.  It think this is the crux of what vastleft was criticizing.  For example, recognizing that the rocket attacks are a threat to Israel's population doesn't dilute outrage at Israel's response, it just makes it clear that you're considering a fuller picture. Ezra did it just fine in this post.  Are we interested in finding a solution, or just scoring points?

- In the end, it's less of a big deal than I originally thought.  I was suggesting in my comment that by not incorporating the entire situation, some people would tune you out.  I've thought about it more, and I don't think that's true.  Once people have a feel for your style, they'll pick and choose what to read from you, and what to ignore.


[ Parent ]
Regarding "special pleading" (0.00 / 0)
Regarding your point (7):  Although I didn't read the word "such", I still don't agree with everything past the first sentence, which is concerned about the accusation of "special pleading".  How is what you're suggesting different from, for example, my Mother In-Law saying that Michael Moore should be disregarded, because he takes too much money for himself from the revenues of his movies, and therfore has no standing to speak for the poor?  By your logic, this would be correct since, by making so much money, his speaking out against other people who make too much money is special pleading.

"[S]ilence oneself" is too harsh, and I apologize for saying that, but I still disagree that we should be concerned with whether or not some outside party thinks we have standing in objecting to something we think is immoral.  (Technically, you didn't mention an outside party, but John C.'s explanation of "immuniz[ing oneself] from charges of special pleading" implies one.)  As Jews, we have an obligation to speak out, period.

Regarding your first sentence in (7), help me out here:  Are you saying we have no moral obligation to speak out against immoral acts done to other Jews, or just not as much of an obligation as compared to speaking out against immoral acts done in our name?  I have to assume it's the latter, since you objected to my reading it as the former, but even with the word "such" in there, it's not obvious to me that it couldn't be read as either.  To me, saying I "perverted the meaning" of what you wrote implies that it was intentional, when it was anything but (hence my incredulity that you wrote it).  I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of ranking immoral acts on the basis of the affiliation of the actor, rather than the act.


[ Parent ]
Damn. (4.00 / 2)
I seem to have been commenting on the wrong Israeli/Palestinian diary (Jacob Freeze's) today. There appear to be some very much more complex and interesting exchanges going on here.

I suppose, Paul, that at some point you simply will have to discuss just what Israel's right of self-defense entails, and what, if anything, it doesn't entail. Your public seems to be demanding it.

One thing I would like to say is that after 1948, it was hard not to be sympathetic with the Israeli position, not least because many of us didn't know until much later exactly what lay behind the Palestinian refugee situation. (Leon Uris made sure of that.) After 1967, though, it was clear that, if ever there was going to be peace, the time for genuine Israeli overtures to the PAlestinians and the rest of the Arab world had arrived.

Instead, it seemed to me that Israel decided to let their contempt for the weakness of their enemies overwhelm their good sense, and what Tom Englehardt called -- in another context -- Victory Culture carried them away from their own roots toward the disaster we now see unfolding.


A heuristic that I've found useful for deciding which posts to read (0.00 / 0)
Generally, I've learned it's best not to invest a lot of time in posts that label opponents as "hysterical."

For one thing, whatever such posts may be about, they can't be about reasoned debate, because by definition one can't have rational debate with a hysterical person.

For another, too often it turns out that there is an awful lot of projection going on from the poster.

Just saying.

NOTE I maintain the same policy for posts that use the word "spew."

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


Aw, c'mon.... (4.00 / 1)
This is a political discussion we're having here. Somebody calls you a hysteric, set 'em straight. Think of this as the House of Commons -- the rules of civility are stretched a little to accommodate the passions of the engaged.

In my opinion, there's nothing particularly vicious or personal about the way Paul calls people out; he just doesn't have the patience to suffer those he considers to be fools, or rather people he believes to be making foolish or ill-considered arguments.

Sometimes I think his judgments are wrong, but if I were on the wrong end of one, I'd be thinking counterattack, not appealing to the teacher. If I got tired of being bested, I might move on, but it wouldn't seem appropriate to blame him for being mean if I did.


[ Parent ]
Sorry! (0.00 / 0)
I meant to use the Klingon word for "hysterical", because it's so much classier.

Only I don't know the Klingon word for "hysterical."

And it nearly made me hysterical thinking what I would do instead.

So, I decided to go with "hysterical" after all.

Where's Worf when you really need him?

It's all his fault.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Funny... (0.00 / 0)
... but the original point remains. Some rhetorical tropes might as well be self-cancelling. This one is.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Sometimes A Word Is Just A Word (0.00 / 0)
And since a trope is a "turning", it does seem quite a trick for a word to turn on itself.  Unless that word is "ouroboros" or "self-referential."

Anyway, given that you yourself called it a heuristic, I'd suggest you double-check my post on heuristics and fallacies.

No antonyms were destroyed in the writing of this comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Feg (0.00 / 0)
Well, I can think of other metaphors for useless self-turning, but let's not go there. Not even in Klingon.

I spent a few minutes checking your post for evidence of "hysteria." Nothing proferred -- though there are, as is typical in a democracy, people who don't share your views. As I predicted, a waste of time. The heuristic works for me!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
And Yet You Ignored THIS Post, Which Where All The Action Is (0.00 / 0)
The amazement just doesn't end.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A little cryptic... (0.00 / 0)
Not sure what the expanded GI bill could possibly have to do with the putative hysteria of those who don't share your views.

Care to expand on why your response is on point?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
hysterical (0.00 / 0)
The guy who thought the Obama campaign ominously evoked the Nazis is now lecturing others on what is and isn't reasoned debate. Would that you could find a heuristic to keep you from being such a smarmy git, Lambert!  

[ Parent ]
Hilarity ensues... (0.00 / 0)
.... as stalker dmd76 attempts to disprove the existence of groupthink and authoritarian followership by prosecuting a Godwin's Law misdemeanor from (get this) May, 2008. The primaries are long over, big guy. I suggest you get over them. I have. Trust me, you'll feel a lot better!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
really? (0.00 / 0)
You're over the primaries? And here I thought all of the Obama-bashing tilting at windmills at correntewire was in earnest. You really should inform all of the PUMA stragglers over at your site that you're "over them". That, and you should stop defending your idiotic comparison of Obama to the Nazis.  

[ Parent ]
Hey, dmd76? (0.00 / 0)
Get over it.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
You're obviously not Jewish (4.00 / 1)
Every single -- only a slight exaggeration -- gathering of any significant number of American Jews eventually hits on the topic of Israeli defense policy when something like this happens. At least in my experience. Some are fiercely pro-government all the time. Some are always anti-government. Most are in the middle, exactly as in Israel.

Don't fall into the same trap you're criticizing. Criticism of Israel is only taboo among conservative political figures. Everyone else, including most Jews, criticize like you've never heard.


Oops (0.00 / 0)
Replied to wrong poster. Sorry.

[ Parent ]
It is true (4.00 / 2)
that among actual people, criticism of Israel is not taboo; but for some reason among the political establishment, it is considered as such. Some pundits wondered if Obama had committed a huge gaffe by saying that the U.S. should be "even-handed" in its relations with Israel and Palestine!

[ Parent ]
Most of Hamas' Funding Comes from Saudi Arabia (0.00 / 0)
So needless to say, both Israel and Hamas receive significant support, both monetary and political, from America. True, in the case of pure dollars, it's direct support for Israel and indirect (through oil purchases and military assistance) for Saudi Arabia. But both are solid American political allies. I don't think your fundamental point -- that we should criticize Israel more than Hamas because Israel is in some ways "ours" -- holds much water. It's also rather belittling, as Israel now is a major world economy -- our annual strategic "gift" is I'm sure nice but not a bit part of the budget -- doing much better than ours right now, thank you very much.

That's just one of Paul's points (4.00 / 4)
And I think it's a very valid one, but the big one is
(4) As Americans we have both the influence (however small) and the obligaiton to participate in changing our country's policies, which support the murderous acts of the Israeli state.

And that goes not just for the government, including the Democratic Party, but for the corporate media as well. The US does not support Hamas. The US does not even recognize the Palestinians' right to elect Hamas. The US always condemns Hamas' rocket fire but never calls for Israel to cease its slaughter of innocents. US support for Israel's terrorism is a mere routine.


[ Parent ]
A response (0.00 / 0)
First if not foremost, Paul, writing a post slamming me after I specifically promised not to read or comment on your future posts seems like an awfully boorish use of the bully pulpit that is Open Left.

I had concluded, evidently with very good cause, that we don't play well together. Your decision to pillory me as an "hysteric" is especially dispiriting given that I consider this site a must-read destination.

In any case, you have successfully dragged me back in for the moment. I guess this is the way truces end. Well played, sir!

Anyone with the barest familiarity of the I/P discussions in lefty blogs is well aware that they skew toward outrage about Israeli wrongdoing rather than Palestinian wrongdoing. To observe that is neither to indulge in a fiction nor to suggest moral equivalence of any particular actions or of the whole of the I/P conflict.

One who gets his or her information about the conflict from lefty sources would get a huge dose of news and opinion about Israeli misdeeds, and very little about Palestinian misdeeds (likewise, as I noted numerous times in our prior discussion, I see a profound bias in the other direction in the MSM, rightwing blogs, and in mainstream political opinion [I haven't yet read your comments thread, but doubtless these observations will be ignored as I'm painted as some kind of Zionist propagandist chasing phantasms of anti-Semitism]). There may or may not be good reasons for the left's bias, but said bias is the nature of I/P commentary in the left blogosphere.

Paul makes great sport of the notion that it's just my "feeling" that Palestinian attacks on Israelis get scant coverage in the leftysphere.

Do you know who turns out to be aware of this tendency which I "feel" exists? One Paul Rosenberg, who explains in great detail why that, um, fact, would be:

...here are a few actual facts to keep in mind that help explain why certain sorts of discussions go on here and elsewhere in the blogosphere:

(1) We're Americans.

(2) Many of us are Jews.

(3) America supports Isreal to the tune of several billion dollars a year.

(4) As Americans we have both the influence (however small) and the obligaiton to participate in changing our country's policies, which support the murderous acts of the Israeli state.

(5) As Americans we have no such parallel influence over Palestinian violence.

(6) As Jews, we have the moral obligation to object to immoral acts done in our name.

(7) As Jews, we have no such moral obligation to object to immoral acts done against other Jews.  In fact, the only way to have moral credibility in objecting to such acts is to concentrate the bulk of our attention on the immoral acts of other Jews.  That way, when we do denounce Palestinian violence, we are not guilty of special pleading..

A man who has chosen to publicly vilify me for having the temerity to suggest that lefty blogs have a certain bias on this topic provides seven reasons for the fact (or, if it's me saying it, "feeling") of that bias.

This fellow even calls his opus "Sometimes 'Bias' Is Called For." The "Bias, What Bias?" argument appears to have gone out the window.

He also notes:

You see, I think it's pretty obvious, and quite rational why a progressive blog, particularly one with a significant Jewish presence, would focus much more attention on Isreali state violence rather than Palestinian violence--reasons in addtion to the obvious fact that Israeli state violence is so vastly more extensive than Palestinian violence, however indiscriminate violence on both sides may be.

The reason we focus more on Isreali state violence is that we are morally, legally and politically responsible for that violence in ways that we are not responsible for the Palestinian violence. And if we truly wish to end the violence on both sides, then the way to do that is to work strenuously to end the violence on our side--and that will give us moral standing and credibility to call for ending violence on the Palestinian side as well.

So, then, we agree that lefty blogs are relatively uninterested in discussing any Palestinian role in the conflict.

You could simply have said, "Well y'know, Vastleft, there's a good reason why that is..." instead of taking such a snotty tone with me - a snotty tone I'd come to know and love this past weekend as you found my lack of deference to organized religion "deeply embarrassing."

You can't imagine how much it stings to be a source of embarrassment to someone who trades in Yoda-eqsue smarm like:

"So we must teach them.  And the first act of such teaching is, we must remember how to be ourselves."

And

"So the first thing I would say is we should listen for a change in ourselves."

Pardon me for getting a little churlish. In our recent interactions, I've found you to be awfully defensive and uninterested in engaging in the substance of my arguments, so I felt it was better to stay out of your orbit, and it's rather annoying to be dragged back in so unceremoniously.

When I find the time, which is in short supply at present, I will expand at my site on why I think it's problematical for the left blogosphere to be one-sided in its focus on I/P.

I can be sure that no matter how fair and rational a case I make - and no matter how explicit I make it that I'm not passing judgment on the relative moral weight of the sides' actions - it will be greeted with unfounded cries of false equivalence.

And it is because of this, well, hysteria, that I blog. Because groupthink - no matter how well-meaning - is dangerous stuff.

When a group of people who respect each other's opinions arrive at a unanimous view, each member is likely to feel that the belief must be true. This reliance on consensual validation tends to replace individual critical thinking and reality-testing, unless there are clear-cut disagreements among the members.  -- Irving Janis, Groupthink

The first edition of Janis's book was called Victims of Groupthink. I'm not sure whether "victims" meant  those who fell under its spell or those who were harmed by them.

Seems to me that the Middle East has been home to many victims of groupthink, one way or another. Your feelings may vary.


Back To Basics (0.00 / 0)
This fellow even calls his opus "Sometimes 'Bias' Is Called For." The "Bias, What Bias?" argument appears to have gone out the window.

An imbalance (bias) of attention for a rational purpose does not constitute unfairness (bias) of judgment.

Pretty simle point, really.

Would you care to address it?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
gqmartinez speaks for me here (not that I've seen "24," tho) (0.00 / 0)
http://www.correntewire.com/va...

I always avoid discussion of this issue with activists from either side because it always has to be a one sided discussion. Ironically, I think the best discussion of this issue to be mainstream is from the sixth season of "24" (See Wayne Palmer and Hamri al-Hassad). Reconciliation will only happen when each side takes the time to see the world from the other side's eyes and agree to put past differences behind them. But since every discussion I've ever had on this issue (with pro-Israeli folk or pro-Palestinian folk--as if you can't be both) has been one sided, I have found the discussion to be unproductive.

I see no progress on this issue until the onesidedness is dropped. Onesidedness allows the generalized demonization of an entire people and once that demonization and dehumanization takes root, you stop considering the means you use to pursue your ends.

My issue is the lack of a reliable source for holistic understanding of I/P. Idealist that I am, I wish for that from my colleagues on the left.

And my argument is that constantly viewing a complex system through a given filter -- and in an echo chamber, to boot -- probably does not ultimately lead to the best judgment.


[ Parent ]
gqmartinez (0.00 / 0)
First of all, someone who lets gqmartinez's saccharine pablum ("Reconciliation will only happen when each side takes the time to see the world from the other side's eyes and agree to put past differences behind them") speak for him really has no place criticizing anybody's prose, Yoda-esque or not. Secondly, I find your enterprise here meaningless. Why is it Paul or the lefty blogosphere's responsibility to provide you with a "holistic understanding of I/P"? What does that even mean? Is it really that surprising that a group of people with a certain set of shared principles would tend to analyze this issue in similar ways?

This quest for an unbiased opinion is mystifying. I have no idea what such a thing looks like, and, if I were to find one, I don't know what I would do with it. As far as I can tell, every opinion I've ever had has been biased.  


[ Parent ]
Hats off to Open Left readers! (0.00 / 0)
It is refreshing to see that after Paul queued me up for the Two Minutes Hate, a lively and multifarious discussion was had instead.

Yes, there was the requisite bogus claim that someone was making bogus claims (or, in fact, any claims) about anti-Semitism. And, as always, there was dmd76's ongoing impersonation of Vonnegut's Paul Lazzaro (though, hats off to you, too, dmd for also posting an on-point comment, not that I endorse it).

Of course, there was the kind of comment that fulfills Paul R's agenda of misconstruing my argument:

These are such obvious points it's sad they even have to be pointed out.

The principle behind the idea that we cannot talk about Israel's crimes without a perfectly balanced discussion of the evils of Hamas would also mean that we couldn't talk about Abu Ghraib without a fair and balanced expression of outrage about the atrocities of the Iraqi insurgents. We couldn't talk about the illegality of Bush's invasion of Iraq without also lamenting Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

And, of course, given the shortage of coverage in the corporate press about the crimes of the U.S. and its allies, the net result will be a disproportionate share of attention dedicated to the wrongdoings of others, and a comparatively minor amount of outrage directed towards the wrongs that we actually bear some responsibility for and control over. But at least the New Republic-ans will be happy, right?*

*Just kidding, of course; they don't want Israeli atrocities to be treated on a par with Palestinian crimes. They want Israeli atrocities ignored altogether!

I'll repeat here what I just wrote at my house:

I'm arguing for being willing to tell the whole truth. Since lefty blogs will reliably write only about Israel's sins, even when there are substantial wrongs committed against them, the blogs cannot be relied on to tell the whole truth.

They can only be relied upon to condemn Israel. At a certain point, their judgments aren't judgments, they're reflexes. That's not to say that Israel doesn't deserve condemnation, just that lefty blogs are an echo chamber for anti-Israel sentiments, morning noon and night. If Israel is unremittingly evil, that approach is just fine, I guess. If the situation is something more complex than that, then maybe it's not so fine.

One reason why it's refreshing to read someone like Somerby is that his world doesn't collapse if he defends a Sarah Palin or a John McCain against an unfair attack. He can still stand foursquare against their conservative politics while criticizing a faulty criticism of them.

I don't pretend to be the most astute judge of the sins of the Middle East (though I'm pretty damned sure that our culture of respecting religious superstition is a huge contributor), but I know when I'm hearing a one-sided argument. And that's all one can get from most any liberal blog about this topic.

If Israel is indeed as bad as or worse than apartheid-era South Africa, let that be shown in a context that recognizes the fears and prejudices and over-reactions of people who face Intifadas and hostile neighbors. If the arguments about Israel as a tyrannical, genocidal oppressor are sound, they ought to be able to withstand being seen in such a context. Yet such a context does not exist in these blogs, and it makes me wonder why.

All told, I am impressed that the quality of debate here, which is all I'm asking for: a forum for the whole truth, not just the "Go, team!" truth.

In my idealized progressive blogosphere, we are an honest broker, and not a counterweight. Perhaps some of you agree with that agenda....


Typo (0.00 / 0)
That should be "All told, I am impressed with the quality of debate here."

[ Parent ]
Wow (0.00 / 0)
Could you be more self-involved? First, you set yourself up to be the arbiter of "truth". Then, you cast aspersions on anyone who doesn't present that "truth" in the manner you find appropriate ("their judgments aren't judgments, they're reflexes") (is this the MO of all of the Corrente Senior Fellows?). Let me suggest something: if you find the Israelis are getting short shrift in lefty blog discussions, then rectify that when you write about the I/P situation and convince people that you are correct. Don't tell people they need to write one way or another so that they appear to be "honest brokers". Your opinion of what constitutes a balanced approach to this or any other issue is unimportant to anyone but you.

Meta discussions are so fucking tedious.


[ Parent ]
"Meta discussions are so fucking tedious." (0.00 / 0)
Unlike, say, obsessively hounding people over an analogy used in a months-ago blog post?

[ Parent ]
That... (0.00 / 0)
is a public service, so that people are aware of the quality of discussion purveyed and encouraged by the Senior Fellows of correntewire. Lambert chose to compare the Obama campaign to the Nazis. You and he should accept that I will call him out for it every opportunity I get. A person so dedicated to finding "honest brokers" should see the value of my endeavor.  

I must say, vastleft, I'm very disappointed in your completely off-topic comment. You add nothing to the discussion of this very important issue, and address none of my points.  


[ Parent ]
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