Obama's "Avoidance of Ideology"

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jan 18, 2009 at 14:03


The first draft of my diary, "Obama's 'Mandate' To Slash Medicare, Medicaid & Social Security" was written through the prism of a column by E.J. Dionne this past Thursday, "Audacity Without Ideology".  Regardless of whether or not my fears expressed in that earlier diary prove well-founded, I believe that Dionne's article can help us unpack some of the misgivings I have about Obama's approach that I think many others share as well, albeit to varying degress.

In his column Dionne cited "at least three keys to understanding Obama's approach to (and avoidance of) ideology."  First, "his simple joy in testing himself against those who disagree with him. Someone who knows the president-elect well says that he likes talking with philosophical adversaries more than with allies."  Second, "Right now, being empirical is in the progressive interest," since rightwing policies since Reagan "have been based more on faith in their worldview than on empirical tests."  But third, Obama believes in a non-ideological approach. that a "pragmatic" "non-ideological" path--a "grand bargain" with conservatives involving "sacrifice" for all will result in political "sustainability"--a solution that Republicans won't want to undo, when they return to power someday.

This last point was particularly salient in putting me deeply on guard about cutting Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.  Indeed, I had an early draft done before I even saw the short notice in the Post that I eventually used instead of Dionne's piece.  This is why I found it faintly humorous that several commentators jumped on my interpretation of the replacement piece from The Fix that I used instead.  Whether or not my fears prove justified, Dionne's interpretation of what Obama is up to does reflect a widely perceived reality.  And in politics, perceived realities all too often trump actual realities.  So it's best to take them very seriously, no matter how silly they seem, or for that matter, no matter how silly you seem by doing so.

I parse my way through Dionne's "three keys" on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama's "Avoidance of Ideology"
Key One: Simple Joy In Testing Himself Against Those Who Disagree With Him.

Dionne:

There is, first, his simple joy in testing himself against those who disagree with him. Someone who knows the president-elect well says that he likes talking with philosophical adversaries more than with allies.

This part of him was once the detached writer and professor who could view even his own life from a distance and with a degree of abstraction. Seen with perspective, after all, the ideological differences in the United States are rather small. We have no major socialist party, and when it comes down to it, even conservatives are reluctant to dismantle our limited social insurance and welfare programs.

This explanation starts off innocently enough, but quickly shifts into pure Versailles sophistry and mendacity--and Dionne is, all things considered, one of the good guys.  But how anyone can have lived through the past 8 years and concluded that "the ideological differences in the United States are rather small" is utterly beyond me.  The ideological differences in Versailles may be rather small--for example, both Democrats and Republicans agree that Republicans should never be punished, but they differ on how much Democrats should be punished--but this is certainly not the case about America at large.  And while it's true that we have no major socialist party, the claim that "even conservatives are reluctant to dismantle our limited social insurance and welfare programs," is misleading at best, if not downright false.  Certainly the likes of Grover Norquist are not shy about discussing the matter, it's just that (a) there's a stiff political price for trying, and (b) there's a lot more money to be made simply by subverting social welfare systems into corporate cash cows.

Delusional as all that may be, it's only one side of the coin.  If it actually were true that our ideological differences were minimal, then (a) what the hell has everyone be fighting over the last 30-40 years?  and (b) what the hell is so special about Obama not wanting to fight?

In fact, a much more realistic view is that (A) US ideological differences are intense and extreme, but truncated on the left, due to intense, long-term demonization. (B) US elites have moved sharply to the right over the past 30-40 years while the American people have not.  (C) Obama's detached manner has long represented the extreme left position of acceptable political engagement in academia, and is entirely unremarkable, far less the exception than the rule.

Consequently, either (A') he must be a courageous bridge-builder, or (B') the differences aren't that large, or (C') the differences are largely illusionary--and he is a courageous bridge-builder for challenging the appearance of conflict, when the differences aren't really that large.  This latter seems to be his position, which sheds a good deal of light on his behavior, in ways that Dionne's remarks do not.

Let me elaborate.  Because the differences are largely illusionary, Obama can argue with conservatives, and show by his manner that they have little to fear from him, and everyone can just be friends.  However, those on his own side can potentially challenge his "illusionary differences" rap in ways that are a good deal more uncomfortable for him, which is the real reason Obama is less interested in talking with them.  Not everyone on his own side will challenge him, of course.  Those who simply agree--or more recently, adore--are just intellectually boring, however, and need not be considered at all.  The ones who count are the ones who refuse to have their concerns finessed, and these are simply no fun at all for Obama to talk with.  He'd much rather debate with Rick Warren, even though--or perhaps even because--Rick Warren cheats.

Some will doubtless find the above discussion difficult to stomach.  It depends on social observations and judgments that are clearly both contestable and contested, but it needs to be stated because of the sense of psychological realism (even if mistaken) that comes with it.  In contrast, the next "key" simply makes no sense on its own--it is an easily dismissible argument, and precisely because it can so easily be dismissed, we stand in need of some other explanation--such as that just proffered above.  And thus we turn to key number two.

Key Two: Being Empirical Is In The Progressive Interest

Dionne:

But Obama's anti-ideological turn is also a functional one for a progressive, at least for now. Since Ronald Reagan, ideology has been the terrain of the right. Many of the programs that conservatives have pushed have been based more on faith in their worldview than on empirical tests. How else could conservatives claim that cutting taxes would actually increase government revenue, or that trickle-down economic approaches were working when the evidence of middle-class incomes said otherwise?

Thus the second key: Right now, being empirical is in the progressive interest. Note that data show that the parts of the stimulus package most congenial to liberals (increases in unemployment insurance and food stamps; fiscal aid to the states; government spending on public projects) are also the parts with the most economic bang. In other words, progressives don't need ideology to make their case.

In this respect, at least, Obama is rather like Franklin D. Roosevelt, who dismissed the conservative economic doctrines of the 1920s. "We must lay hold of the fact that economic laws are not made by nature," Roosevelt said, directly countering the central premises of orthodox economics. "They are made by human beings." Thus did Roosevelt make pragmatism and experimentation enemies of conservative ideology. Obama, wearing a smile as he stands on a mountain of data, is doing the same.

This gets everything wrong in at least three fundamental ways: First, it posits ideology and empiricism as mutually exclusive.  Second, it reiterates the long-standing Democratic delusion that facts and ideas can just sell themselves.  Third, it completely mangles the comparison between Roosevelt and Obama.  Let's take these one at a time.

First, positing ideology and empiricism as mutually exclusive  This is only true in general of the right. Indeed, as far back as ancient Greece, conservatives have stood on the side of myth and emotion, while liberals have stood on the side of reason and empirical evidence. As Eric Alfred Havelock explained in The Liberal Temper in Greek Politics, the conservative myth of decline from a past golden age was challenged by natural philosophers who empirically observed developmental phenomena, and developed a general theory of evolution that included natural phenomena as well as human skills, both technological and social, up to and including the evolution of societies.  Thus, liberals had an over-arching narrative--a narrative of progress--that was every bit as sweeping, inclusive and ideological as the conservative narrative of decline and decay.  The only difference was, it was founded on observation and reason.

Modern (post-Renaissance) liberals substantially under-appreciate the importance and significance of framing narratives, even though they, too, are motivated by the narrative of progress.  (I'll have more to say about the contradictions involved in a separate diary.)  This background contradiction plays itself out in various ways, and one of them is Obama's contradictory impulses toward centrism and progressivism.

Obama ought to be attacking conservative ideology for being at war with reality.  That's what's been going on for the past four decades, and liberals have not been doing anything remotely similar. Attacking ideology per se unfairly blames liberals for the sins of those who have been slandering them for forty years. Yet, lacking a clearly articulated ideology of progress, Indeed, it is Obama's attempt to steer a middle course between liberals and conservatives that drags him into the murky realms of pseudo-science and pseudo-facts, with fantasies such as "clean coal" and "tolerant" bigots such as Rick Warren.

Second, the passage above reiterates the long-standing Democratic delusion that facts and ideas can just sell themselves:

Thus the second key: Right now, being empirical is in the progressive interest. Note that data show that the parts of the stimulus package most congenial to liberals (increases in unemployment insurance and food stamps; fiscal aid to the states; government spending on public projects) are also the parts with the most economic bang. In other words, progressives don't need ideology to make their case.

Remarkably, this appears to be a delusion not just of Dionne's accounting, but of Obama himself--despite the fact that Obama is quite facile at framing issues, and obviously understands in action that facts and ideas don't just sell themselves.  Now, of course it's possible that Obama is just being deliberately disingenuous, using a "no frame/just the facts" frame to frame his argument.  But this simply doesn't square with the way he and the Democrats generally are failing to dominate the stimulus debate, as Digby observed in the diary I cited last night, "'Serious People' Part XXVI", in which she quoted a portion of Lou Dobbs show, and then remarked:

You try to untangle that rats nest because I couldn't. Apparently, the 8 trillion dollar Iraq war failed to fix the recession so Obama needs to get the private sector to create more jobs because Bill Clinton's hundred thousand police jobs didn't solve the crime problem and the jobs were lost. Oh, and the New Deal was a bust and everybody hates bailouts.

This is a particularly ugly example of the economic ignorance among the punditocrisy, but there is very little I've heard that sounds remotely convincing from our side anywhere. That is why bringing up "entitlements" and the deficit is such a threat to any successful recovery --- it's something about which people have been throughly indoctrinated and they can easily understand it. Nobody has bothered to educate them about liberal economics in decades, so when they are confused they turn to familiar refrains about how the government screws everything up and how it should be run like a business and how taxes are too high etc. Even the professionals don't know how to make a convincing case for government action in a crisis and they really need to.

The belief that this stuff just sells itself after 40+ years of intense ideological warfare by the right is beyond naïve.  It is willful denial of reality.

Third, and finally, the above passage it completely mangles the comparison between Roosevelt and Obama.  The Roosevelt quote--"We must lay hold of the fact that economic laws are not made by nature, they are made by human beings."--is quite misguided, though trying to make a valid point, that there are ideological choices involved in shaping economic reality, which is a taken, not a given.  This is precisely the opposite of Obama's passive attitude, which Dionne richly conveys when he writes of "Obama, wearing a smile as he stands on a mountain of data."  After all, "data" means "given", not taken.  It is inherently passive, and that passivity is precisely what Roosevelt rejected as biased against what was needed--a spirit of experimentation to strike out in new directions.

While Roosevelt's spirit was right, his description was not. It was not the basic economic laws we could rewrite.  In fact, the problem was that we didn't know the laws, we only thought we did, and so we had to experiment to find our way.  Either that, or listen to Keynes, who was several steps ahead of everyone else.  We're in a very different place today, facing different unknowns, but ideologically ignoring important things that now are known.  And Obama is certainly not doing the same as Roosevelt did.  To the contrary, with his support for the bailout and tax-cuts he's playing halvsies between Hoover and FDR.

All of which brings us to Dionne's third key.

Key Three: Obama's Anti-Ideological Talk Is Not Just A Vehicle For Progressive Inclinations But The Real Deal

Dionne:

But in a third respect, Obama's anti-ideological talk is not just a vehicle for progressive inclinations but the real deal. Obama regularly offers three telltale notions that will define his presidency -- if events allow him to define it himself: "sacrifice," "grand bargain" and "sustainability."

To listen to Obama and his budget director Peter Orszag is to hear a tale of long-term fiscal woe. The government may have to spend and cut taxes in a big way now, but in the long run, the federal budget is unsustainable.

That's where sacrifice kicks in. There will be signs of it in Obama's first budget, in his efforts to contain health-care costs and, down the road, in his call for entitlement reform and limits on carbon emissions. His camp is selling the idea that if he wants authority for new initiatives and new spending, Obama will have to prove his willingness to cut some programs and reform others.

The "grand bargain" they are talking about is a mix and match of boldness and prudence. It involves expansive government where necessary, balanced by tough management, unpopular cuts -- and, yes, eventually some tax increases. Everyone, they say, will have to give up something.

First off, I just have to ask--How is this not ideological?  Any decision about who wins and who loses is inherently ideological, and one that makes a "balanced" decision after decades of wild imbalance clearly intends to consolidate--rather than challenge--the ideological direction that has preceded it

In short, the problem with this proposed direction is (1) it follows on 35 years of sacrifice from the bottom 80%, (2) it proposes a "grand bargain" with a bunch of swindlers, and (3) it promises "sustainability" in the face of a rapacious foe who will rip it to shreds at their first opportunity, given their past track record.  It is, thus, not only inherently conservative because it accommodates past conservative gains, it is doomed to fail on it's own terms, because it is oblivious to how conservatives actually operate.

And how pragmatic is that?

Now, of course, critics will rightly point out that this is E.J. Dionne interpreting Obama, this is not Obama himself.  But Dionne is a considerable Beltway influence--a conscious person's David Broder, as it were--and his interpretation of Obama's modus operandi and rationale is integrally related to how they will be construed in Versailles.  Given that Obama's "no ideology" ideology is intellectually incoherent from the get-go, a social construction is almost bound to be as good as it gets--at least until a whole lot more pressure is brought to bear on Obama to explain and justify himself.  With his approval ratings as high as they are now, we shouldn't expect that anytime soon.
 


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Wrong again (4.00 / 1)
The first error of your post is to assume that Dionne has any idea what he is talking about. Rather, Dionne is a representative of DC establishment thinking and he has absolutely no idea of what Obama is about. However, your enthusiasm for Dionne's analysis is not surprising, because Dionne it allows you to wax indignant about the shallowness and naivete of Obama - as presented by Dionne.

Someone who during the entire primary and general election vociferously pushed an analysis that has turned out to be entirely wrong would benefit from a little self doubt and reassessment. Instead, like the people who went on TV to explain the advantages of the Iraq war and have moved on as if events had not proved them to be delusional, you have skipped on to the next error.


Where You Been Troll? (4.00 / 2)
Long time no see!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
that response is intellectually on par for your post (2.00 / 2)
You insist that anyone who finds your empirically incorrect and philosophically naive essays unpersuasive is a "troll".

[ Parent ]
Not Just Anyone, Sweetie! (4.00 / 2)
You'se special!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I guess Axelrod renewed their contract (4.00 / 2)
Good news for everyone!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
as always, you fanatasize that people need to be paid (2.00 / 2)
to refute your drivel.

[ Parent ]
Well, just saying... (0.00 / 0)
... that there certainly seem to be a lot of our old friends about awfully suddenly.  'Cause being called a racist fucktard makes me feel, oh, all warm and runny on the inside. Just bringing back memories of the good times, ya know? Back when the Unity Pony dropped its first steaming load....

But hey, if you're actually capable of polluting a thread as thoroughly as you have this one, and for nothing, I just have to give you a tip of the ol' chapeau! No, seriously.

Oh, and it's "fantasize." Little Freudian slip where you project your own fanatacism, perhaps?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
maybe you should have considered why Xan had to leave your little viper pit (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Well, unlike you (0.00 / 0)
she wasn't purged for being a troll.

You would also be well-advised not to talk of matters of which you know nothing.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
"Someone who during the entire primary (4.00 / 6)
 and general election vociferously pushed an analysis that has turned out to be entirely wrong would benefit from a little self doubt and reassessment."

You'd think that would be true, yet here you are, still attacking Paul, who read Obama clearly from the get-go.

I think your real problem is, you know he's right. If you thought he was wrong, you would have no worries and would be free to ignore him, because the future would soon vindicate your point of view. But you can't.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Paul (0.00 / 0)
is never right.  

[ Parent ]
Paul-- (4.00 / 1)
not to alarm you but I think your ex-wife has broken the perimeter. Code red.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
sdf (0.00 / 0)
Code Red is obviously taken. So which color code are we using when someone makes a corny ass joke?

[ Parent ]
You'll be the first to know. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
He Also Might Offer A SPECIFIC Criticism (4.00 / 1)
which we could then debate.

Horrors!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you have to troll rate me because you have no argument (0.00 / 0)

Hilda Solis is on track to the most pro labor Sec of Labor since there has been such a position.

The OLC is going to be run by a brilliant legal scholar who has dissected both the legal and moral bankruptcy of the Bush/Yoo torture regime.

Stiglitz's most brilliant student is going to head OMB.

and so on, yet, Paul who explained that poor dumb Obama would not win the election except by embracing the political strategy that took Kucinich well up into the single digits of popular support, continues to pontificate.


[ Parent ]
exactly.. (4.00 / 1)
I'm tired of these people acting as though they have good ideas. They don't. They aren't REALLY interested in governance. They just want to throw bombs. That's why they place tactics above policy.

[ Parent ]
Again, No Links! (4.00 / 3)
Because it's all just made up lies.

F'rinstance, I never said he wouldn't make some good appointments.  In fact, I don't know anyone at Open Left who ever said such a thing.  Certainly none of the frontpagers.

Your fundamental problem, rootless, is that you simply seem to be a pathological liar, which is why no one takes you seriously.

You don't even try to make rebutable arguments.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
what a bunch of crap (0.00 / 1)
Do you really want me to post a bunch of links back to your stupid remarks from the primaries - again?

[ Parent ]
I troll rated you (4.00 / 3)
for calling Paul racist based on absolutely nothing.

If you have a case, come forth with it, otherwise you are just degrading the discourse. After all, if everyone is racist then no one is racist, and words no longer have any meaning.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Good to know the OFB racist smears go on (4.00 / 1)
Why tamper with success?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Really ridiculous (0.00 / 0)
.  Given that Obama's "no ideology" ideology is intellectually incoherent from the get-go, a social construction is almost bound to be as good as it gets--at least until a whole lot more pressure is brought to bear on Obama to explain and justify himself.  With his approval ratings as high as they are now, we shouldn't expect that anytime soon.

See Richard Rorty. There is absolutely nothing incoherent about the political and moral platform expressed by Obama and its rejection of "ideology." There are indeed contradictions, but that's because Obama is producing a governing program not a term paper for a freshman poli-sci class.  


Actually (0.00 / 0)
Though I haven't read much of Rorty's later stuff, work such as The Mirror of Nature falls squarely into the anti-essentiallist embodied reason tradition that's fundamentally opposed to the Platonic/transcendental rationalist roots of the anti-ideology ideology.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Platonic? (0.00 / 0)
Rorty would see Obama as squarely within Dewey's very un-platonic and explicitly anti-ideological political tradition, but Obama's has added Alinsky and MLK to the mix for a far more politically and morally sophisticated approach than Dewey managed.  

[ Parent ]
Who You Quote Means Nothing (4.00 / 2)
It's what you do that matters.

The Devil. Scriptures.  Ever heard of that one?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
weak evasion (0.00 / 0)
I'm not talking about who Obama quotes, I'm talking about your claim that his "post-partisan" position is "intellectually incoherent". There is a reason you have never been able to come to terms with Lakoff's endorsement of Obama and that has to do with your utterly shallow understanding of what Obama is saying.  

[ Parent ]
yup-- both Obama and the media start from a default position that (4.00 / 3)
is automatically and inherently on the right. These pundits don't value empiricism -- they peddle narratives, and prop up the "system".

Republican and pro-corporate and hawkish and "conservative" ideologies are the default position for all of them. It's totally coherent -- and totally amoral and authoritarian and not what Americans believe or want.

Paul, do you read Silber? He's very very good on this kind of stuff -- http://powerofnarrative.blogsp...


[ Parent ]
Hey, Thanks For The Link! (4.00 / 1)
You know, I have read him before, but I can't remember when.  And just taking a quick peek, I can't see why I haven't paid more attention to him.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
anytime -- this too, from BAR -- (4.00 / 4)
http://www.blackagendareport.c... --
When Barack Obama started praising Ronald Reagan the candidate's apologists claimed he was just paying respect to a dead president. Now it's clear that Obama's affection for the raging old reactionary was heartfelt. With his latest pronouncements on cutting "entitlements," Obama "has proven himself to be a true believer in the Reagan revolution." The almost-president "is repeating the Reagan mantra about 'reforming' Social Security and Medicare or cutting their rate of growth" - music to Republican ears. If Obama starts slashing at Social Security, those "progressives" that have excused his rightward lunges will bear responsibility.

Barack Obama just loves Ronald Reagan, the late president but still idolized leader of the American right wing. During his campaign for the presidency Obama famously said that unlike Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton didn't transform the country in a fundamental way. At the time he was in the thick of his primary battle against Hillary Clinton and the remark was perceived mainly as a dig against his opponent and her husband. When he later said that he would have a foreign policy like Ronald Reagan, it was seen as an attempt to get the votes of rural "Reagan Democrats" in the Pennsylvania primary. It is now clear that Obama's paeans to Reagan were not mere vote getting efforts or jabs at the Clintons. Barack Obama has proven himself to be a true believer in the Reagan revolution. ...



[ Parent ]
is it too much to ask (0.00 / 0)
that you just wait in see? The problem is that you scathingly critique something that you have no sound basis to believe. You'd have much more credibility if you simply wrote about what Obama should do and the reasons why he should do it. Moreover, you are much more likely to see what you want implemented if you make great arguments in advance of sound policies. But the problem is that you're criticizing, essentially, air. And why? Why are all you guys here so overtly critical before he's even taken office? Here we are, with a country that is ready to see this historic moment, ready to get rid of our worst president in history, and almost uniformly, all the frontpagers do is rip Obama before he even gets in there. It's just very weird to me. I don't get it. It's like if you were polled, you would probably say you "disapprove" of his job thus far. It just confounds me.

Good Lord! (4.00 / 6)
Obama has made a huge deal out his "post-partisanship" and no one is supposed to question it?

Didn't you see the last 8 years?

The best way to ensure that Obama doesn't become the Democratic equivilent of Bush is for his political base to not be the Democratic equivilent of Bush's base in 2000/2001.  Go read John Cole's recent reflections on the matter, "What Has Been Seen Can Not Be Unseen"

On the eve of Obama's inauguration, it is both funny and disturbing to look back to how things were eight years ago- I was so thrilled that a republican was about to be inaugurated. I was so excited to vote for Bush in 2000 that I literally could not sleep, and, as always, was at the voting booth at 6:30- 7:00 in the morning, the only person under 60 standing in line.

Now, today, I am so disgusted with the Republican party that I don't think I will be able to vote for a national Republican for twenty years. I wouldn't say my positions have changed completely, either....

What has changed, however, is that I have seen a lot of the arguments that come from the Republicans for what they are- just bullshit. I have watched over the past few years and seen how nonsense bubbles up into the mainstream, and how distorted versions of events designed to distract and queer the debate turn an upside down version of events into the "conventional wisdom." You don't have to look any farther than the recent attempts to blame the entire financial crisis on Democrats, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and poor minority borrowers.

We need to hold fast to our critical culture, or we can become just like them so fast it will make your head spin.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
we should definitely be critical (0.00 / 0)
but what are you being critical of? He's not president yet!!! What about that don't you understand? How can you be critical of something that hasn't occurred.  If Obama gets in there, and is another Bill Clinton, then criticize that. That's fair.  What isn't fair is to be so overly concerned that he's going to do what you don't like, to act as though he has done it, and then rip him for it. What's so bad about saying this: "You said you were going to do xyz, make sure you do it." I'm all for making politicians accountable. But you undercut your legitimacy when you don't even give them a chance.

And re: the above post. If Obama didn't take your advice on how to get elected, you should be man enough to just admit it.


[ Parent ]
What has occured (4.00 / 8)
So you think statements made and decisions made before he is sworn in do not matter?  You don't think Obama is making very real decisions right now that effect the country as if he were president?

You do realize Obama submitted a stimulus package to congress which they have already acted on just last week before he was president, right?

Cabinet members have already been appointed and some have already had confirmation hearings.  Is that not real?

You think we should just close our eyes, plug our ears and pretend nothing is happening until Tuesday?

Your logic lacks.


[ Parent ]
it won't end there (4.00 / 6)
after Tuesday, there will be pleas for Obama to be granted a "honeymoon period" of unspecified duration, time for him to "find his footing". As if we weren't in the middle of a thousand crises right now.

Basically, the excuses for why Obama isn't doing anything can be continued forever unless something goes absolutely horribly wrong.

Someone quipped that Nixon ran in 1968 on ending the Vietnam War, and ran in 1972--on ending the Vietnam War.

Obama's a more talented campaigner than Nixon, so I have no doubt he'll be able to run a similar strategy, ie he has to.


[ Parent ]
another Bill Clinton (4.00 / 2)
If Obama gets in there, and is another Bill Clinton, then criticize that.

Yeah, wouldn't it be awful if Obama turned out to be another Bill Clinton.


[ Parent ]
A successful, two term (4.00 / 1)
Democratic president who left us a strong economy, God forbid!

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
sfs (0.00 / 1)
ROFL! Okay, you guys are obviously PUMAs.

[ Parent ]
And you are (4.00 / 3)
obviously a retread Reaganite.

Believe it or not, Democrats get it right sometimes.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
sdf (0.00 / 0)
We did; when we said no to another Clinton and elected Obama. Agreed.

[ Parent ]
Hate to be the one to tell you (4.00 / 1)
but we just elected another Clinton. That can still be a good thing (the first one wasn't as bad as everyone tells you) but only if we recognize the fact and prepare ourselves to deal with it.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
one hopes to have smarter questions (0.00 / 0)
"Obama has made a huge deal out his "post-partisanship" and no one is supposed to question it? "

What's your beef with "post-partisanship"?

Do you insist on explaining over and over again the freshman insight that everything is ideological?

Do you insist on pretending that Obama has not over and over again articulated very clearly that there are battles to be fought? Do you want to continue to elaborate your feckless theory that Obama does not know that he will run into determined opposition?



[ Parent ]
sfd (0.00 / 0)
I think too many on the left are looking for disappointment. It's why the liberal thinkers here are TERRIBLE at political strategy. They think like losers.

[ Parent ]
I would wager (4.00 / 4)
the "losers" you speak of here have collectively fought for, and won, far more battles than you have any idea of.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
sdfd (0.00 / 0)
You guys are so good that you couldn't get a "real" progressive in the White House? So good that you haven't been able to use your influence to get one "real" progressive in the cabinet? Can't get a "real" progressive anywhere it seems. Can't get any "real" progressive ideas in the mix of things? Sounds like a bunch of losers to me. Meanwhile, me and my ilk, have the White House, the Cabinet, the Senate, etc. . .

[ Parent ]
Wow (4.00 / 2)
we have a card carrying member of the corporatocracy among us! We're not worthy, we're not worthy!

So which corporation do you own a controlling share of stock in, then? Is it AT&T, GE? Halliburton?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
sdf (0.00 / 0)
rofl! Right, Nader, I'm a corporatist.

[ Parent ]
You just told me (4.00 / 2)
your kind owns the White House, the cabinet, the Senate.

You're either a corporate overlord or else totally deluded.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
sdfs (0.00 / 0)
No, I'm not deluded. Liberals are in all those places. Code pink?

[ Parent ]
the opposition has already rolled over him (4.00 / 8)
on FISA, he just went along with retroactive legalization of Bush's crimes and told us he would personally oversee the spying program to prevent abuses.

During the bailout, he voted for the Paulson bill, promising that it was absolutely necessary and that it would protect taxpayers. When it cratered, and they voted in the second half of the TARP money, he criticized the first half for not having the protections he promised it would have, and then promised that he personally would oversee the second half to provide them. (Sound familiar).

With Rick Warren, he's invited a homophobic theocrat--one who has considerable influence in African nations, and global ambitions to expand his movement--to be his spiritual advisor.

They see Obama as easy meat, because he's not going to put up a fight. He never has, except for his own personal advancement. They don't call him "No Drama Obama" for nothing.

During his political career, he has advanced by avoiding conflict while cultivating and pleasing the powerful elites whose good favor was necessary to his rapid rise. That strategy has gotten him all the way to the presidency. Why would he change now?

He believes his personal charisma, combined with his belief in "bipartisanship," will solve every problem, and that what worked for Bill Clinton will work for him if he goes even further with it.

He might be right, he might be that super-special--that doing the same mushy capitulation that the Democrats did for years will get a different result when he does it.

But I'm thinking he'll still bleed if you prick him.


[ Parent ]
rofl (0.00 / 0)
lmao. you're out there. next time just vote for Kucinich.  

[ Parent ]
why would I do that? (4.00 / 4)
He wouldn't make a good president at all. He can't unite people around a common goal, nor does he have experience with moving his policies forward.

Obama can unite people around at least one common goal: putting him in the White House. But there are already signs that, like Bush, he'll prove to be more divider than uniter once in office. Not because he's malicious, or intends to be divisive, but because he can't possibly straddle all the factions he wants to straddle and keep them all happy at the same time.

With FISA he pissed off the civil libertarians; with Warren he pissed off the LGBT community; by keeping his distance from the Congressional auto bailout he made the unions wary of him (though he scored some easy brownie points by publicly supporting the striking workers at Republic Windows). And all the time he has tried to please Wall Street.

Pretty soon he's going to run out of fingers to stick in the dike and the floodwaters are going to burst through. And it ain't going to be pretty.


[ Parent ]
lmao (0.00 / 0)
"Obama doesn't do what I want means he's going to be a bad president"

LMAO you're funny.


[ Parent ]
I've Always Been Told (0.00 / 0)
I had a talent for comedy.

But I'm dead serious this time.


[ Parent ]
Too Many Facts! Troll Heads About To Explode! (4.00 / 1)
It's really not fair to discuss actual facts, limpidglass.  Since they don't have nary a one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
This thread reminds me of Kos back in February (0.00 / 0)
Not a pretty sight.

NOTE And by Kos, I mean The Obama 527 Formerly Known As Kos.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Here's my beef with post-partisanship (4.00 / 5)
I don't have a beef with consensus. The New Deal/Great Society consensus was great. I'd love to get back to that and then when republicans win they'll be Gerry Ford and Ike types that while I'll work as hard as I can to defeat them, I won't live in absolute terror of them winning. The problem with post-partisanship right now is that it is just plain wrong to act like the political parties don't represent very different ideologies that when enacted have profound consequences for our country and especially for those without power and for the health of our planet itself. So a "grand bargain" with the conservative ideology has very real implications for working people and the environment. And the ironic thing is that if Obama was truly "pragmatic" he would ignore many grand bargains and enact programs that are far to the left of what he currently proposes. Health care for instance. Instead of carving out a space for private health care, he would just expand medicare to cover everyone, raise the payroll tax (and perhaps make it a progressive payroll tax) and be done with it. Pragmatically it makes the most sense. A single payer system is more efficient. Reducing the profit directive in insurance reduces administrative costs (3% for medicare versus 15-20% for private insurance). But conservatives are ideologically opposed to such a solution. So in this instance, "post-partisanship" really means unilateral disarmament from the most pragmatic solution that benefits the most people in society in order to placate conservative dogma.

The same can be said about climate change. The most pragmatic solution is to enact an emissions plan that reduces CO2 by 90% by 2050. But conservative ideology says the government should not interfere with the market (just like health care). So again, we have severe consequences for not doing the pragmatic thing that will benefit the most people in society, and potential save human civilization as we know it. So post-partisanship means striking a "grand bargain". And what does that mean? Cutting a deal, splitting the difference and putting our planet in peril.

Until the conservative ideology of laissez-faire capitalism is thoroughly discredited as one that is harmful and damaging to society and not as something that needs to be incorporated into solutions, then post-partisanship should not be a goal for society. Creating a better life for all people should be the goal. And in the conservative ideology, that most certainly is not a goal.


[ Parent ]
that's a perfectly good critique of broderism (0.00 / 0)
but it has nothing to do with how Obama uses the term.

[ Parent ]
sfs (0.00 / 0)
Something about Obama gets under their skin and makes them act irrational. I still haven't put my finger on it.  

[ Parent ]
Ok, you wanna play that game? (4.00 / 1)
I can play that game.

How much did you volunteer for Obama during the campaign? If it's less than I did then you obviously don't like Obama as much as I do and are an irrational person.


[ Parent ]
So how does he use the term? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Obama uses "post partisan" to break Republican branding (0.00 / 0)
The republicans have successfully sold the idea of "liberal" as "anti-american", elitist (snob), untrustworthy, welfare granting etc etc. They did this from the Acid Amnesty Abortion line down. They also sold "right" as "patriotic", small government, self-reliance, etc. What Obama is doing with his post-partisan rhetoric is jumping over all that back to the progressive consensus opinions of the public. He is saying, I don't want to talk liberal versus conservative or Republican versus Democrat, I want to talk about good jobs, protecting the environment, just society and so on. The argument that many of us have had with the Paul's of the world is that we understand the advantages of this political tactic, while Paul appears to be unable to even consider it. What's remarkable is that people like Paul have in years past extolled the work of Lakoff on precisely this issue. Yet when Lakoff said that Obama really got it, Paul insisted that Lakoff had been too stupid to apply his own analysis.

[ Parent ]
Ok I agree with that aspect of what Obama does (4.00 / 2)
and I really like it. What I'm talking about more is for instance, Obama rejecting expanding Medicare to cover all people. That's a specific example there. He says if he was starting over, he would do single payer. Be he's not going to do that. He's going to try to craft something within the system we have. That is not the most pragmatic thing to do as evidenced by how inefficient the private system is. Add-on insurance is fine, but given that we already have a perfectly good example of the benefits of single payer (empirical evidence!), then why not go with that solution? I wish he would use his rhetoric you speak of (which I agree is very good) to go this route and I will continue to push him more towards these goals. But it doesn't mean I don't like Obama or that I won't fight as hard as I can for him. It also doesn't mean that I won't disagree with him or that he won't frustrate me. And I don't think he would expect anything less from me. That's what democracy is.  

[ Parent ]
we are in agreement (0.00 / 0)
I think Obama is way too timid on health care - but I'm a little hesitant because he clearly is a brilliant politician who knows how to present positions. To me, the idea of making federal level health insurance available "affordably" to the general public is a politically brilliant means of selling single payer as "freedom of choice". The private insurance companies business model fundamentally relies on denying care and huge overhead in terms of dividends and executive payouts so it cannot compete. But instead of playing into the frame of "communist medicine", Obama is selling "give people the option of the same plan congress has."

We'll see whether he does that or caves to insurance company demands and I'm all for pushing him and criticizing.


[ Parent ]
I refer you to this marvelous post (4.00 / 7)
by Glenn Greenwald, who shows that Democrats have been trying this post-partisanship business since Michael Dukakis.

He links to a document by the DLC, which sounds quite a bit like your post:

The Democratic Leadership Council, and its affiliated think tank the Progressive Policy Institute, have been catalysts for modernizing politics and government. From their political analysis and policy innovations has emerged a progressive alternative to the worn-out dogmas of traditional liberalism and conservatism

What Obama is doing with his post-partisan rhetoric is jumping over all that back to the progressive consensus opinions of the public. He is saying, I don't want to talk liberal versus conservative or Republican versus Democrat, I want to talk about good jobs, protecting the environment, just society and so on.

There's nothing novel about Obama's approach, except in degree. It's neo-Clintonism gone mad, whereby he takes the worst of Bill Clinton--his tendency to please the Republicans by getting behind some of their policies--and takes that doctrine to the nth level.

He's adopted a version of Bush's doctrine of preemption--if there's even a chance the Republicans might dislike his policies, he concedes to them in advance by giving them what they want even before debate has begun.

He will apply this doctrine to every issue he tackles, no matter how crucial it may be to get it right--on torture, the rule of law, on Afghanistan, on reconstructing the economy, on environmental sustainability.

If things get sufficiently bad, he may wake up to the realization that that kind of triangulation won't cut it. But I'm not sure he's thought seriously about what to do if his Plan A fails.



[ Parent ]
But at least he isn't (4.00 / 4)
named Clinton.

For some people, apparently that's all that matters.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
a young, charismatic Washington outsider, (4.00 / 4)
who grew up in disadvantaged circumstances, pulled himself up in the world by hard work and brilliance, and went at an Ivy League law school, rises like a meteor to the presidency by promising "hope" and "change" and a "new politics" and to clean up Washington?

No, there's absolutely nothing familiar about that! No sirree!


[ Parent ]
Only this time (4.00 / 4)
the story ends differently.

This time the wannabe Rush Limbaughs and Kenneth Starrs and Newt Gingrichs have us to deal with. This time we are organized, connected and carrying a grudge.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
so if you won't seriously respond to Lakoffs argument (0.00 / 0)
you don't really have much to say.

[ Parent ]
Your appeals to authority (4.00 / 4)
are tiresome.

"Lakoff says" "Goolsbee says."

We all understand that your big brother is totally going to kick everybody's ass just as soon as he gets home, so maybe you should go home and wait for him there.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
no wonder Obama appeals so much to you (4.00 / 4)
there's a certain kind of blinkered academic type, usually in the humanities and social sciences, whom Obama speaks to. The sort of people who value the institutions of the academy, and its ostentation and paraphernalia, above actual ideas, and who use theory as a refuge from reality. The kind of people who think that if they talk about something like torture in the right kind of jargon, they can blot out its essential odiousness.

Such people aren't stupid; in fact, they may be highly clever and intelligent. But there's something missing from the way they respond to the world--something barren. And Obama is just such a person.

You appear to either admire such people or to be one yourself.

Here I give you evidence that you sound just like the DLC, and you can't even defend yourself in your own words but have to tell me that I can't possibly contribute to the conversation because I don't know Lakoff.

Can you at least speak for yourself, and tell me, in your own words, what this brilliant strategy of Lakoff's is?


[ Parent ]
lakoff's argument (4.00 / 1)
Triangulation is attempting to find middle ground between winger politics and liberal/progressive ones.

Reframing is attempting to recast the argument in terms of shared moral principles and lived reality.

What Clinton and DLC did/do was triangulation. SS is a good example: they say we have to try to preserve some of the safety net while avoiding costly policies.

What Obama did on SS is "reframing" - to make SS financially sound we have to get rid of the unfair cap that places the burden on working americans.

That is essentially the argument Lakoff makes in his endorsement of Obama.


[ Parent ]
Except That You're Cherry-Picking (4.00 / 3)
Obama also used the rightwing frame of referring to the "Social Security crisis" and Clinton was also often very adept at reframing.  (Making abortions "safe, legal and rare," taking care of people who "worked hard and played by the rules," etc.)

The main point here, however should be that you are mischaracterizing the whole record on this.  As in this diary, where you never really address my argument, so, too, in the diary I wrote about Lakoff's praise for Obama, you never engaged with the argument in the diary, you just engaged in the same sort of bomb-throwing in the comment thread.

You never have confronted my arguments, only your strawman versions (at best) and more often just your outright insults and lies.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
paul - me explaining Lakoff's argument is not cherry picking (0.00 / 0)
Feel free to come up with a more substantive argument against Lakoff's analysis than your claim that he was deluded.

[ Parent ]
I thank you for making an attempt (4.00 / 3)
to explain Lakoff's arguments.

However, I still think Lakoff's is a distinction without a difference. Obama uses the same language of triangulation--as yet there is no indication that he actually means something different even though he's using the same words.

Ultimately only time will tell. But as I've pointed out, many of his actions to date would seem to indicate that he is merely pursuing a more refined version of the Clinton strategy.


[ Parent ]
on your attempt at psychoanalysis (0.00 / 0)
there's a certain kind of blinkered academic type, usually in the humanities and social sciences, whom Obama speaks to. The sort of people who value the institutions of the academy, and its ostentation and paraphernalia, above actual ideas, and who use theory as a refuge from reality.

Sigh. Obama is the guy who won the election by appealing to a vast range of voters despite the claims of the "intellectuals" here that he was missing the boat and incapable of properly framing the debate. So I gotta wonder what motivates this argument you have.

BTW: I have been in academia, but in sciences and I have spent most of my life working in technology business so I'm not really in the Obamaphile group you are attempting to locate me in.


[ Parent ]
AMAZING! Finally A Substantive Claim! It's Wrong, Of Course, But Still... (4.00 / 6)
I actually don't have a problem with using "post-partisan" rhetoric for "jumping over all that back to the progressive consensus opinions" in principle.

I have a problem with it (a) in execution and (b) as an explanation for other behavior that doesn't accord with the explanation.

In short, if Obama had not caved on FISA--and then given a totally bogus explanation for it, if Obama had not pushed hard for TARP, and then done so again for phase II disregarding his pledges made the first time around, if Obama had not invited Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inaguration, etc., then I'd have a good deal more trust in the rationale you proffer.

See, my judgment on Obama's rationale and his behavior are (gasp!) evidence-based, NOT IDEOLOGICAL in the simplistic, DFH leftist sense that you attribute to me.

Contrariwise, your refusal to engage in specifics, and your resort to a formulaic defense without reference to actual evidence is typical of an ideology-based approach to politics.

Furthermore, this:

The argument that many of us have had with the Paul's of the world is that we understand the advantages of this political tactic, while Paul appears to be unable to even consider it.

Is utterly and totally wrong, since I was one of those who enthusiastically supported Obama at first, in part because I did understand the advantages.  It was only as I noticed how casually he picked up and used rightwing frames against progressives that I started having concerns, and started watching him more critically.  After all, the more accomplished some one is in skillfully framing issues, the less excuse they have for that sort of shit.

And so it was Obama's actions, not his theory, that lead me to question him.  That, in turn, lead me to question his theory over time, but not because some version of the naive rationale offered above could not work.  I still accept that it can in principle.  But Obama doesn't actually do that, so the point is moot for this discussion.

Finally, I never said Lakoff was stupid.  But it's interesting that you make this claim, as it says something quite revealing about you.  You equate any expression of a critical comment or difference of opinion with calling someone stupid.  This indicates a very low tolerance for such differences of opinion, which is also frequently indicative of very low self-esteem.  Such people frequently build themselves up by tearing others down.  This is perfectly consistent with your observed behavior here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
lakoff (0.00 / 0)
I think it's worth rereading that thread
http://www.openleft.com/showDi...
because what you missed then you continue to miss today.

And here you are respectfully comparing Lakoff to someone who sees what he wants to see in an inkblot.

"Lakoff is excited by what he thinks he sees in Obama--just like many other people are.  What he sees is a good deal more subtle and complex--and clearly significant--but the basic ink-blot effect is similar, IMHO"


[ Parent ]
But it's true. (4.00 / 3)
It's called "projection" and it's a well-known phenomena.

Well-meaning people (like Lakoff) can project their own good intentions onto others, and not-so-well-meaning people can project their own prejudices onto others.

Like we just saw here, today.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
oh i'm sorry (0.00 / 0)
Paul didn't say that Lakoff was stupid, he said he was "projecting" and failing to apply the analysis that he developed. Sorry for the confusion.

[ Parent ]
You think (4.00 / 3)
projection is the same thing as stupidity?

That explains a lot. Like why you have virtually no mechanism for dealing with it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Precisely (4.00 / 3)
As I said elsewhere, it's rooted in low self-esteem.

It's beyond his comprehension that I could disagree with someone, even criticize them, and yet still respect them.  People with low self-esteem just don't get that.

"Your shoe's untied," is an existential attack on their very being.

Sort of makes it hard to have a serious discussion of anything at all, really.

Even "hash browns or fries?" could easily become dangerous territory in the twinkling of an eye.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
at first I thought (4.00 / 6)
that the Democrats under Obama would only become partly like the GOP under Bush--the part of the GOP that served the plutocratic interests of Wall Street.

But with Obama's embrace of Rick Warren, and continuance of the faith-based initiatives business, I now see that Obama intends to bring in the other part of the GOP: the rabid theocrats.

Why anyone would want to embrace either group, after seeing what they made of the GOP, is beyond me. The Republicans have been destroyed by these groups and their radical agendas over the last three decades.  And we're going to be infected with the same disease.


[ Parent ]
Votes are "air" (4.00 / 3)
and appointments are "air." Well that's good to know. I guess it won't be too much longer before we are hearing that policies are likewise, "air."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
pls (0.00 / 1)
This is just wackjob talk from people who put tactics above principles and place a heavy emphasis on purity over results.

[ Parent ]
I'm the whack job? (4.00 / 5)
You just told me I value "tactics above principles" yet at the same time, prefer "purity over results."

So which is it? Or did you maybe not realize that those pretty sounding words actually have objective meanings? Maybe you have gotten so post-partisan and non-ideological that you think you can just make up new meanings for words.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
dfsd (0.00 / 0)
principles = policy

[ Parent ]
You are definitely (4.00 / 4)
the whack job.

Principles=policy, up is down, black is white. I thought we left that behind with George Bush but no such luck.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
fs (4.00 / 1)
it was a writing error.

[ Parent ]
Happens to me too. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
we already have (4.00 / 4)
Obama's vote on the FISA Amendment Act--an action which altered the laws of this country by gutting the oversight power of the FISA court and granting retroactive immunity to the telecoms for their crimes--was treated, by varying commentators, as a necessary compromise. Or as a minor alteration of a Fourth Amendment which was already severely weakened. Or by simply denying that it did what it did.

He's already made a bad policy decision. And people didn't care.


[ Parent ]
Well, some of us did. (4.00 / 4)
But we just need to "get with the program."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Fits my impression of Obama (4.00 / 2)
I've often stated that the "naive" criticism of Obama was the closest to being correct, in my opinion.  What you quote from Dionne pretty much correlates with my impressions.

For example, if Obama does touch Social Security, it would not shock me in the slightest if he reduced benefits by some small margin.  I think he will try to keep the reduction at a "token" level in order to give the impression of everyone sharing the pain while simultaneously raising or removing the payroll limit.  While he hasn't really said anything like that, he hasn't shot down the recent speculation either.  It seems like a very Obama way to approach the problem.

But I'm also expecting two, or even three, steps forward for every step back, resulting in a presidency much better then we've seen in quite some time.  But how good depends on how much power and pressure the left can apply.

This is why I'm simultaneously very excited about Obama yet fully support the criticisms from you, Chris, Matt and even David (though I can't emotionally handle most of David's writing and world view, and really need to stop reading it personally.)


obama on social security (0.00 / 0)
It is indeed possible that Obama will prove to have been a liar and to lack the political will to do what he says. However, what he has consistently said is that Social security benefits do not need to be cut, instead the cap on SS taxes should be removed to ensure fiscal soundness of the program. That is, he is neither adopting Clintonian triangulation in accepting the "need" for benefit reduction, or defensive Pelosism, but is deftly treating the problem as a justification for making the tax progressive.

[ Parent ]
"benefits do not need to be cut" (4.00 / 2)
And I honestly think Obama believes benefits do not need to be cut.  But I can see him making a small cut anyway in an attempt to be less partisan and take all sides into account.

Let me be clear that I would take this bargain if all the math holds up.  Eliminating the payroll cap would be a huge, huge boon to progressive taxation.  That additional money could easily pay for other causes (earned income tax credits, for example) that more than make up for the lost SS income, even for the individuals involved.

But even if I'm wrong, it doesn't hurt to push Obama as far to the left as we can.  While there actually is a point that people like Paul would want to go further left than me, that reality is well out of range of anything we'll seen in the next four to eight years.


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 3)
While there actually is a point that people like Paul would want to go further left than me, that reality is well out of range of anything we'll seen in the next four to eight years.

You old Star Trek Social Democrat, you!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Republican me (0.00 / 0)
In my ideal world, I'd be the Republican and to the right of most people.  I'd make sure that capitalism stays intact against the socialist, with the threat from the aristocrats dealt with long ago.  I'd make sure individualism was still respected and people had the right to eat meat as long as it the animals were cared for humanely.

We aren't exactly there, yet.


[ Parent ]
You remind me of an old college friend. (4.00 / 3)
An architect, and a conservative, who none the less once said something to the effect of "any world in which people like me pay as little taxes as I do is not sustainable."

Now that's pragmatism.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Slow writer (0.00 / 0)
Man, I must be a slow writer.  There were no other comments when I started typing this.  Some sure are taking this post hard.

Left out of all this is Obama's strong liberal core.  His personal way of solving problems is fairly liberal, I believe, but he has all these other beliefs as well.  Since reaching out to those who are different is a liberal way of acting, this isn't a real contradiction, but it is very different than the conclusions reached by the netroots on how Democrats should behave.  And I do think Obama is largely (though not completely) wrong on his approach.


[ Parent ]
but he's not proposing things that are 2 or 3 steps forward -- (4.00 / 4)
and he didn't appoint people who believe in those things that would actually be forward progress (like true single-payer health) -- his expert advisors and Cabinet (and Obama relies on them totally) -- and the DC Village conventional wisdom as expressed by Broder, Dionne, Krauthammer, Kristol, and all the rest -- are against even the most traditionally Democratic things.

SS is fine -- we raised the tax on it in the 80s. Any kind of reduction or change now is not "forward" in any way, but immensely and totally Republican and "backwards" and harms us.   That he speaks of "entitlement reform" is also totally GOP and backwards and harms us. That he actually wants to "reform" those government programs that directly help Americans is absolutely appalling and unacceptable.


[ Parent ]
Ah the Lambert Strether fan club appears (0.00 / 1)
I know what you say is religious faith on Lambert's blog where the lonely fight against the OFB (Obama Fan Base) and Obama's racist, sexist, and Rezko suffused politics continues to inspire, but come on now.

Hilda Solis is probably invisible to you, since all women of color seem invisible on the PUMA sites, but she's a living refutation of your "argument".


[ Parent ]
she's not appointed yet--and Obama is already saying "cardcheck" is negotiable (4.00 / 3)
-- none of this stuff is hidden, and Republicans everywhere are, and have been, praising him for ages.

(Obama's health "reform" team also has said the public option on healtcare is negotiable as well, btw)


[ Parent ]
Remember (4.00 / 2)
Bush II Part I, in which the Republicans were crowing about all the "strong Republican women" Bush had placed in positions of power, and how this proved he was the true champion of women, etc. etc.?

Women like Christina Todd Whitman, who promptly had her strong Republican legs cut off when she tried to actually, you know, do her job.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Wow! (4.00 / 1)
You might actually be more pessimistic re Obama on Social Security than I am.  OTOH, I'm much more concerned re Medicare and Medicaid.

But, in general, I'll return the compliment by saying that I continue to hope you're right overall.  I just can't help but notice the potential flaws I see, even as I hope they can be overcome, or even prove groundless.

Above all, I hope that seing flaws helps us deal with them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Admiration (4.00 / 6)
I have boundless admiration for your continued energy in going after the poseurs and flacks whose real goal is support of the plutocracy.

I think the problem is that we allow discussions of money policy to be based upon economics, when what is really at issue here is that of morality.

There are roughly two ways of looking at the world. One considers the maximization of equality of ends and/or opportunities a moral goal. The other thinks that some people are inherently superior to the rest and it is only through their largess, benevolence and wisdom that any progress gets made at all. Whatever they decide is for the general good (eventually).

Now economics can be used to devise systems which will lead to one goal vs the other, especially when coupled with the power of the state to enforce rules of property and the like. But economists are not moralists and shouldn't be consulted on ends only on means.

Unfortunately the opposite has happened and economists increasingly see themselves as the best ones to advise on public policy. Do we want to give income support to a million people this year at the cost of slowing economic recovery ten years from now is not an economics question, it is an ethical one.

There has been a slight shift in attitude of late after the amoral work of Friedman, Greenspan and their followers has been shown for the evil it really is. Unfortunately there is little sign that this new understanding has penetrated the Obama regime. Appointing the same gang of pro-growth, capitalist, economists is unlikely to lead to any basic changes in the underlying organization of society.

There may be a bit of a bigger safety net, but all attempts are to inflate the bubble as quickly as possible again. There is no discussion of possible alternatives. A missed opportunity.


Policies not Politics


Absolutely! (4.00 / 2)
Moral Politics and Political Economy are inescapably with us, and the act of denial is the ultimate insult to the rhetoric of transparency.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
one of the pervasive myths of American politics (4.00 / 7)
is that all our political debates are merely about means and not ends.

Both Democrats and Republicans claim to love motherhood, the flag, and apple pie. They both say they want to help the common people, they both believe in the ingenuity of the American worker, etc. etc.--whatever panderific platitude of the day they have to mouth in order to win.

And so all debates over policy are cast as discussions between people who share the same fundamental goals, but who have minor disagreements about the details of how to achieve those goals.

But that isn't true. The Republicans believe that the government is the enemy of the people and that the best government is no government at all. The Democrats, to varying degrees, believe that the government can be used as an instrument to better the lot of the people. That is why there will be always be a fundamental difference between these two ideologies of government.

But (thanks largely to the Republicans' success in pushing their narrative of  "government evil, no government good") we never talk about this difference, feeling it to be a matter of subjective belief and choice. The end result is to exclude from discussion all debate about ends.

It is useless to pretend, as Obama does, that such divisions can be simply ignored and glossed over with enough pleasantness. Either you think government's in the way, or you think it can do things to help the people. There's not a middle ground, here.


Well Put! (4.00 / 1)
And quite central. What with Obama being head of the government (well, almost).

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The fundamental dishonesty of "OpenLeft" (2.00 / 2)
If you look down the arguments you may be able to see that many of my comments have been suppressed by "troll ratings", some by people who are vociferous commentators at PUMA sites. This is what passes for "left" around here.

indeed (0.00 / 0)
People who never liked Obama, criticizing him under the protection that they are the "true progressives."

[ Parent ]
NO (2.00 / 2)
Those comments are trollworthy. They are gleeful personal attacks. I am not piling on because no one is going to uprate them.  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  

[ Parent ]
bullshit (0.00 / 1)
Snort. Let's see your substantive discussion of Hilda Solis at labor or of Rorty's analysis of Dewey or of Stiglitz's influence on Obama's economic policy or anything else beyond reheated PUMAism.


[ Parent ]
sdf (0.00 / 0)
exactly. Say anything critical of baseless attacks and you're a troll. Extrapolate a sentence from an op-ed to suggest that Obama is going to slash social security and medicare and you're a front page diarist.

[ Parent ]
Those comments weren't TRed (0.00 / 0)
But I will tell you what I think about Obama's cabinet after 7 hours of Eric Holder. Obama is trying to pick people who are universally acknowledged in the policy communities which deal with each cabinet position to have the qualifications and the intelligence to do the jobs they are nominated for. This is important because he has to overcome the perception of being naive and inexperienced. Whether these people are doing the right job for the time is a separate issue. Obama is also trying to move the center so that there is a center that isn't Broderism--there is a center which represents basic decency and the good which is in people. Asking people to sacrifice is part of appealing to that sort of good. Moving the center to the left as an ideological category isn't particularly one of his goals.

What I have read of both Rorty and Dewey you could put in two thimbles. But I did read The Metaphysical Club years ago.

And Corrente isn't a PUMA blog, and Lambert isn't a PUMA. A PUMA refuses to support Obama even with a vote.  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  


[ Parent ]
lambert did not vote for obama (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
So everybody who doesn't vote for Obama is a PUMA? (4.00 / 2)
Gad.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
that's substantially my analysis (0.00 / 0)
What annoys me is this constant "He's a republican" screeching that we've been getting from people like Paul and some of the other commentators on this thread since the primaries.

[ Parent ]
link please (4.00 / 2)
when did Paul R. ever call Obama a Republican?

[ Parent ]
Never happened (4.00 / 4)
Rootless just made that up.

[ Parent ]
crickets (0.00 / 0)
The Openleft critique of Obama entirely depends on inferences from sources like Dionne. You will never see here a substantive discussion of e.g. Peter Orzag's voluminous writings or Hilda Solis or Goolsebee.  

[ Parent ]
Bowers praised Hilda Solis! (4.00 / 2)
Without qualification! So did Stoller! Good grief!  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  

[ Parent ]
praised her... (0.00 / 0)
but didn't praise Obama for appointing her, or lessen their criticism of him for having done so.

[ Parent ]
And Don't Forget My Enthusiastic Comment In Support of The Solis Nomination (4.00 / 4)
here::

This IS An Excellent Choice

Easily Obama's best so far, I'd say.  She's not just someone who understands labor, she understands how labor, community and environmental concerns all intersect on a very intimate level in people's lives.

The only downside is that D-Day recently wrote a post at Calitics--"California's Crisis of The Status Quo - And the Only Woman Who Can Fix It", arguing, well, his title says it all.  I would have written something similar myself, but my impression had been that she wasn't interested in leaving the House.

Of course, Bercerra staying put meant there wasn't an open slot for her to move up into.  As it is, she's now positioned to one of the most high-profile progressives in the nation.  And she's not just generally progressive.  She's done very nitty-gritty policy work in the California Assembly before moving to Congress--and unseating a long-serving, but very passive incumbent by a landslide to do so.

Still, California remains a political and economic disaster area.

So, yeah, I'm so anti-Hilda Solis that I would have liked to see her run for governor of California.

This makes me wonder.  Does rootless have a fact checker to go out and find facts for him to get wrong?  It's sort of eeire, really.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
your endorsement of Solis is not substantive engagement (0.00 / 0)
Because if you treated Solis as anything but an unrelated sport, you would not be able to endorse Dionne's analysis as you have done above. Obama nominates a very pro-labor strong advocate of not only unions but environmental justice and you persist as casting him as an apostle of Broder.  

[ Parent ]
Nominates and then undermines (4.00 / 4)
by putting EFCA up for grabs. Yes we're paying attention.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
You're forgetting rootless (4.00 / 3)
is a misogynist. As evidenced by his own condescension towards yours truly (hey -- it's his definition, not mine).

So naturally Solis herself means nothing to him, only Solis as an instrument of male will. In this case, Solis as evidence of something about Obama.

You didn't praise Obama, you merely praised Solis, so it doesn't count. Silly you.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You're So Right! Silly Me! (4.00 / 2)
In fact, Solis didn't even exist until Obama nominated her.

Folks like me in California were just hallucinating her independent existence!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Goolesbee? (4.00 / 4)
You mean like his disingenous attack on Michael Moore?
At the most simplistic level, giving free health care to everyone costs a lot of money. Especially since people tend to use things more frequently when they are free. Let's say the universal and free coverage part cost an additional $200 billion a year. How do you pay for it? This is the vexing question for single payer. Most advocates counter that health costs in single-payer countries are dramatically lower than in the U.S. private-care system. Switching to a U.K.-like single-payer system would cost a great deal of money initially, but if it would eventually get our costs down to U.K. levels, we could afford it.

Except the UK does not have a single payer system, the UK has socialized medicine. Canada has a single payer system, that is privately delivered and publicly funded. If we had a system like that we could save 350 BILLION a year.


[ Parent ]
exactly (0.00 / 0)
I mean this kind of "oh my I found a comment I can interpret in a silly way" critique.

[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 3)
when your comments betray the fact that you either don't read or don't understand the posts, you don't leave people a lot of options.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I've troll rated you several times (4.00 / 6)
But I've only done it when you claimed Paul was racist.  There is absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever.  If Obama were white I fully believe Paul would say the exact same thing.  In fact, against Bill Clinton he basically did say the same things; the complaints were somewhat different as Clinton is different than Obama, but general tone and issues were similar.

Note that I'm about as far from a PUMA as you get.  In most of these debates, like in the primaries, I've been the one defending Obama from Paul.

But you are simply throwing around the charge of racism without any reason or evidence.  That deserves troll ratings.  That's practically the definition of what deserves troll ratings.


[ Parent ]
And the good stuff in this thread has been BURIED amid a landslide of (4.00 / 2)
silliness- definition 2 of full on trolling.

[ Parent ]
excuse me but don't put words in my mouth (0.00 / 0)
I never said that Paul was racist, but I do believe that race is a factor in his arguments. And Paul is profoundly more respectful of Bill Clinton:

Here is Paul
Although this is, in some respects the Clinton formula all over again, since Clinton, too, tried to adopt some rightwing stances, policies and ideas, vainly hoping to gain some Republican support, it's actually closer to H. Ross Perot (even farther to the right), and his talk of popping the hood and fixing the engine, as if liberal vs. conservative ideas were no more different than right-handed vs. left-handed wrenches.

Here's Paul again:
It doesn't have to be this way, but quite frankly it really does appear that Obama himself simply has no clue that there is a set of progressive values that can form the foundation for a principled governing philosophy.  Rather, he seems to be aware that progressive ideas, at least, if not values, exist.  But that they're only there Chinese menu style, in a column right alongside conservative ideas.

So remember, we're discussing a guy who was a professor of constitutional law at U of C, an employee Alinsky's group, a civil rights attorney, as if he were some clueless chucklehead lacking the depth one might expect of a freshman poli-sci student. I have not seen such a total disrespect in Paul's discussions of Clinton.


[ Parent ]
Don't take "hidden comment" (4.00 / 3)
so literally. What you said was:

"He explained during the election that Obama needed to abandon the dumb "post-partisan" approach he (Obama) had clearly only taken because as a stupid black guy he lacked Paul's suave grasp of political theory."

You accuse Paul of calling Obama a "stupid black guy," yet deny calling him racist. You are taking "weasely" to a whole 'nother level.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
your interpretation is absurd (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
See, (4.00 / 4)
you would have been all right if you had simply accused Paul of calling Obama "stupid." Still a liar, of course, but not in quite the same level of trouble.

Why did you have to go and throw "black" into it? It was your word, your decision.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Truly Clueless (4.00 / 2)
How this qualifies as "respectful" of Clinton and "disrespectful" of Obama is a mystery that only rootless's therapist can unravel.

Back in the real world, however, I have ruthlessly excoriated Clinton for execution of Ricky Rae Rector, the hanging out to dry of Lani Guinier, and the passage of "welfare reform", just to name three of my perennial favorites.  It's just that those topics don't seem to come up all that often here, a decade or more later.  Funny how that works.

And, as a matter of fact, I voted for Barack Obama for President, whereas I never voted for Clinton. Indeed, in 1992, I voted for Ron Daniels instead of Clinton. Daniels, a former campaign manager for Jesse Jackson (whom I supported in 1984 and 1988) just happens to be black.

So much for my racism.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
sfd (0.00 / 1)
Exactly. Utterly no respect for Obama's intellectual capacity, although, Obama has proven himself to be much smarter than Paul.

[ Parent ]
Paul and the other radical leftists can continue to worry about Warren (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to look at a video of the new President singing along with Pete Seeger.

[ Parent ]
sfd (0.00 / 0)
exactly, as if Warren is some policy advisor. They put tactics above policy; that's why they lose continuously. that's why they are always wrong.  and that's why they never get respect.

[ Parent ]
I'm going to watch Bishop Robinson (4.00 / 2)
oh wait, I can't. HBO isn't showing him. I guess he's too "controversial," you know, not like a man who compares gay people to pedophiles, and considers Hitler a role model.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Obama is smarter than you. (4.00 / 3)
That doesn't mean he's smarter than Paul.

It's kind of like, the ant can't tell which is taller, the horse or the elephant.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
sdf (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure if Obama is smarter than me. He sure did a hell of a lot better at Harvard Law than I did. He's clearly smarter than Paul though.

[ Parent ]
Of course! (4.00 / 1)
So you are the very smartest (maybe), then Obama, then Paul.

That explains why you go around accusing people of things they don't do.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
Well said.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Rootless and Sirota (0.00 / 0)
While rootless is throwing around accusations of racism, I do want to point out that his/her general problem is having a world view so tightly wound that s/he assumes to know the inner thinking of every other person.

Sirota ha a similar problem.  In the next diary he says:

They want this either/or paradigm to exist, even though it doesn't have to. Why? Because it both alleviates their privileged guilt and because it justifies the shredding of the social contract.[...]

America's ruling class - whether wealthy pundits, Wall Streeters, Washington lobbyists, corporate executives, politicians, or your typical suburban SUV-driving hundred-thousand-aire - desperately needs ways to avoid guilt and instead feel good and moral about sustaining lavish lifestyles through human exploitation. And so they have people like Kristof, Tom Friedman and other kindred spirits to give them a reasonable-sounding White Man's Burden-style argument that helps them feel righteous rather than stoic in their excess; makes them feel like they are Saving the Children when they buy a pair of expensive slacks made by children toiling in a foreign sweatshop; and makes them feel that any pangs of guilt or efforts to change things are what's really creating such bone-crushing poverty in the Third World.

(Italics mine.)

Sirota, like rootless, is just dropping into the heads of others without any (supplied, at least) evidence.  This happens all the time.  Sirota isn't throwing around charges of racism, I'll give him that, but the fundamental problem is same.

But rootless, you should look to Sirota as a mentor.  Note that in addition to pretending he knowns the fundamental nature of every human and has no problem throwing around stereotypes, he also provides actual evidence and data to support the real point of post.  All of Sirota's demagoguery is just an aside to the main arguement.  So far, you just take the part of Sirota that drives me bonkers and leave it at that.


rootless' problem (4.00 / 3)
is that rootless is a troll determined to hijack the thread.

[ Parent ]
I don't know about rootless (4.00 / 1)
But are you actually disagreeing with Sirota's description of today's political center and establishment elite, composed as it is of middle, upper middle, and lower upper class types who might be left-leaning on social policy but are right-leaning in economic policy, and in the end are clearly far more interested in protecting and extending their perceived prerogatives than in making it possible for everyone to share the bounty or ending the exploitive practices at home and abroad that make their wealth, and wealthy lifestyles, possible?

You actually disagree with this? Because it's not based on anyone's alleged ability to get into anyone's head, but on empirically observable reality--today's political center and establishment elite are clearly embracing such right-wing economic values, and to deny it is beyond delusional. This isn't about reading someone's psychology, but about observing their behavior. Who do you think bought all those high-priced SUVs, pushed for tax cuts for the rich, supported the war for cheap oil, deregulation, lax oversight, cheap credit, etc.--i.e. all the things that have destroyed the country so quickly? It wasn't just the crazy right. In fact it wasn't even primarily the crazy right. It was the deeply selfish and amoral entitled center, which saw in Bush an opportunity to go to town on the economic bounty that the New Deal had built up over decades, and totally enabled his policies.

I know people like this. We all do, I suspect. I.e. "liberals" who are all for abortion and gay rights, peace, love and understanding, etc., so long as they get their Lexus and $1,000,000 house and cheap Mexican labor to mow their lawn and clean their house. And you're actually denying this? That is quite literally delusional.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
i'm "cherry picking" by summarzing Lakoff's argument? (0.00 / 0)
I suppose to summarize Lakoff's argument fairly, I need to agree with your "counter" that Lakoff is delusional.

No, You're Cherry-Picking (4.00 / 1)
by referring to just one part of what Obama did, ignoring when he wasn't reframing, and ignoring Clinton when he was reframing.

Since you were arguing that the difference between Obama and Clinton was that Obama reframed while Clinton did not, this is clearly a case of cherry-picking to prove your case.

And, of course, it's your claim that Lakoff is delusional that you're trying to palm off on me.  Just one more example of your chronic [anti-]intellectual dishonesty.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
my god (0.00 / 0)
I'm asked to summarize Lakoff's argument and I do. You complain I do not accept your criticism of Lakoff's argument in my summary.

If you want, however, I will point out that neither I or Lakoff accept your position. We do not see what Obama did as triangulating.  


[ Parent ]
sfd (0.00 / 0)
"First, triangulation: moving to the right -- adopting right-wing positions -- to get more votes. Bill Clinton did it and Hillary believes in it. It is what she means by "bipartisanship." Obama means the opposite by "bipartisanship." To Obama, it is a recognition that central progressive moral principles are fundamental American principles. For him, bipartisanship means finding people who call themselves "conservatives" or "independents," but who share those central American values with progressives. Obama thus doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship.""

very smart by Lakoff.


[ Parent ]
Well, Actually, This Was My First Take On Obama (4.00 / 2)
And I was quite pleased with him.

But it just didn't hold up over time.  There were too many anomalies that it didn't explain.  He's internalized too much rightwing bullshit to pull it off cleanly as you've described.

Now it's still possible that he may vomit all that out at some point, and I sincerely hope he does.  But at this point in time that just hasn't happened yet.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And when did Lakoff write those words, anyway? (0.00 / 0)
What has he had to say lately?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Almost Exactly A Year Ago (0.00 / 0)
here.

I'm not sure more lately.  It would be interesting to get a dialogue going with him and Westen, as they're both in the same ballpark, and Westen's been openly challenging.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Ideology of Avoidance (4.00 / 2)
I wonder if the Democratic strategy is actually to "avoid" the kind liberal political domination that occurred following the New Deal. I mean, their behavior ever since the Nov 06 elections has been like the dog that actually caught the car. And now, with the possibility to "revive the reputation of the party" via single-payer healthcare reform, their strategy seems more intent on allaying the fears of those like William Kristol than those who would appreciate some help.  Maybe everyone should do the Democrats a favor and resume not voting for them like old times--think of what that'll do for their strategy!


Digby Has Made This Argument On Several Occassions (0.00 / 0)
But I'm not really sure how conscious and planned this is, and how much it is simply the synergy of entrenched interests just going about its business as usual.

As for not voting for Dems as a strategy, well, cutting off your nose to spite your face is not just unappealing in itself, but it has no second act.

It's far more doable to organize from within. And with the Dixiecrats long gone from the national party, we have less institutional barriers against us than ever in our history.  Sure, it's not going to happen overnight.  But struggles can succeed as never before.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
organize independently (0.00 / 0)
I don't think it needs to be conscious or planned.  It just needs enough people to go-along with business as usual.

And there are many ways to do that.

I don't go-along with the idea that "spite" is automatically the reason for not voting for Democrats.

In fact, I think there are plenty of good reasons to vote for and support a real alternative.

One such good reason is that you're unlikely to believe the only way to fix things is as a Democrat.


[ Parent ]
The legitimacy of Dionne's perspective (0.00 / 0)
You seem to think that Dionne's observations are unsupportable.  To consider your points:

1.  Dionne's observation that there isn't much difference between the establishment left and right is completely valid and correct.  In fact, I'm not certain you're really disputing it.  Instead, you're suggesting that the ideological battle, on the left, is silenced in the mainstream.

What Dionne says, then, is correct: there isn't much difference between establishment Republicans and Democrats.  Obama, is as mainstream as can be.  It isn't ood that he is as anti-ideological as Clinton, except to the extent that he has a greater opportunity to be ideological, given his mandate and the nature of our current dilmenas.  What you and I think about the true center or liberal ideology doesn't matter to Obama any more than it does to Reid.  You might ridicule it as "Versailles" reality - but is the only reality that matters at the moment.

2.  Dionne doesn't posit ideology and empiricism as mutually exclusive, but rather assumes that actions based on the right ideology don't need to be defended ideologically, since they will produce results. He does seem to assume that good ideas and facts will sell themselves, which is naive.  Selling policies takes something more - but it isn't a given that good ideology is that something more.  Republicans are ideologically erratic.  They use ideological statements as one tool when it suits them, but mainly engage in oversimplification and lying.  Liberals could use an ideological approach as well, but there isn't any track record of good ideology being a good selling point - in fact, that's as naive as believing that good facts and results sell themselves.

3.  As far as whether "sacrifice" "grand bargain" and "sustainability" are "ideological" - that depends on how they are defined.  Empty catchphrases aren't an expression of an ideology.  

Obama isn't going to wake up to some deep progressive instincts.  He doesn't have any.  He's Bill Clinton with less conviction and a bigger mandate.  Ideology will be a forbidden term for Democrats for the entirety of his Presidency.


Good Used Car Sales Rap (4.00 / 3)
But after several hours of fighting off rabid space zombies, it's downright boring to settle down and refute your spinmeistering.  Still, bored I must be.

1.  Differences may be "minimal," but, just for starters, on one side we have the complete dismantlement of the welfare state as the planet heats up indefintely until the methane in the sea beds all escapes and we all broil like a t-day turkey, and on the other side we don't.

If that isn't ideological difference, it will just have to do till the real thing comes along.

2.

Dionne doesn't posit ideology and empiricism as mutually exclusive, but rather assumes that actions based on the right ideology don't need to be defended ideologically, since they will produce results. He does seem to assume that good ideas and facts will sell themselves, which is naive.

Yeah, well, that's sort of the point.  Naive = spectacularly wrong.

3.

As far as whether "sacrifice" "grand bargain" and "sustainability" are "ideological" - that depends on how they are defined.  Empty catchphrases aren't an expression of an ideology.  

It's most definitely clear that these terms are terribly unclear.  And how they're resolved will say alot about the ideology behind them.  But even empty catchphrases most definitely are expressions of an ideology.  You just have to penetrate the fog they help perpetuate in order to sus out what it is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Spinmeistering? (0.00 / 0)
Oddly hostile, considering that I don't disagree with your perspective, largely - I just think that Dionne's perspective is entirely legitimate, or rather that you are talking past one another.

I do disagree that there are radical ideological differences between the mainstream parties, even in the areas you mentioned.  Republicans weren't dismantling the welfare state - they were adding a prescription drug benefit to medicare.  Even the social security proposals were more along the lines of kicking money to the private sector, ultimately giving their cronies every reason to continue the system.  Environmental issues may seem to be a stark difference, but I imagine that every "serious" environmental bill proposed by the Democrats will have long timelines and corporate benes, so that the real question is how fast the earth fries.  (Environmental issues aren't largely ideological on the left, anyway - they are driven by science).  In everything else - Iraq, torture, civil liberties, free trade - you'll find conservative Democrats on the Republican side, and liberal Republicans on the Democratic side, and the center of the Democratic party near the Republican position.  

That's Dionne's world, and Obama's, and they shape the world for you and me.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, Didn't Mean To Be Hostile (4.00 / 1)
A bit teasing was more my aim.  I thought the bit about "fighting off rabid space zombies" would clue you in.

And yes, I know what the GOP was into, but that was only because they knew they couldn't dismantle it, so cannibalizing it was their next best option.  What you are, in effect doing here is arguing that the successfully bipartisanized parties aren't that far apart.

But that's not the original premise.  That's the "after" state.

The premise is that the "before" state isn't that far apart.  And while that's certainly true compared to Venezuela, or even France, the difference between a return to the 1890s while frying in the winter sun and a modestly improved welfare state while not frying in the winter sun is still quite substantial.

Finally, there's this parenthetical:

(Environmental issues aren't largely ideological on the left, anyway - they are driven by science)

For the umpteenth time, the left is largely driven by empirical/pragmatist concerns across the board.  I don't think it's accurate to reduce this to "science", as the tension between what the science says and what practicable policy can be is pretty deeply embedded in environmentalist practices.  The science--not just with global warming, but it's the best known example--fairly often defines the more radical side of things.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Go away for one lousy day.... (4.00 / 3)
Jesus, Paul, who are these jerks?  Do they actually expect anyone with an IQ above room temperature to believe that you're a) a PUMA, b) a racist, and c) dumber than Obama? Unbelievable.

I think they may have tied up their horses in that grove of cottonwoods just outside of town. Why don't I go cut the nags loose and run 'em off, so's you can keep ole rootless and odnarb pinned down until the shrink arrives?

Consider it a public service.


Why is it not surprising (4.00 / 2)
that someone who spells his name backwards and speaks in meaningless acronymns is not interested in arguing in good faith?

I just hope he really is a troll, in the truest sense of the word, posing as an Obama supporter to make all Obama supporters look stupid. Because with friends like that Obama will not need enemies.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
My take (4.00 / 3)
It means very little but my take is that Obama is a smart, charming man who believes he can charm many people into agreeing with him.  

I personally don't believe that the huge majority of Republicans in either the US Senate or the US House are at all susceptible to charm or even reason.  I believe that they have little or nothing in common with many of the garden variety rotarians and local business types who vote for many Republicans.

I believe that for whatever reasons, Obama is very concerned with winning the good opinions of the political elites, the opinion elites and the financial elites.  I don't trust these self same elites even a little bit.  But that's my opinion.

I hope he's right and I'm wrong.

And one more thing.  I hope that throwing around the term racist is something that ends up as something in the past.

Silly me.


What this suggests to me (4.00 / 1)
(if Dionne is correct, and we have no reason to believe he is wrong - even if we do not have complete confirmation he is right, and it is NOT an either/or situation)

Is that Obama is looking to dismantle the New Deal in a more humane and "fair" way than Bush would have done. That instead of dealing with an "unsustainable" budget with progressive tax increases on the wealthy, he will do it by cutting benefits.

There is NO objective reason why benefits must be cut. None whatsoever. As we enter a deflationary environment such a move would in fact be quite reckless. So that suggests his is an ideological commitment to cut benefits.

What I am seeing emerge is that Obama fundamentally believes in the neoliberal economic policies of the last 30 years, but that they can be ameliorated through "liberal" policies that are a bit fairer to people, and through a political-cultural attitude of community solidarity that can take the edge off the inevitable decline in standard of living.

Obama seems to be the American Tony Blair, when you think about it.

Ultimately I think this project is doomed to fail, since anything short of progressive economics will leave the economy in a Depression, or a long period of stagnation. That in turn will lead to a Republican resurgence in 2012, as they will offer individual prosperity - not the shared poverty of Obama. And Americans WILL embrace the GOP model, preferring a return to the "good old days" to Obama's "let's all share a smaller pie."

Some may accuse me of reading too much into Dionne. But there is much more evidence to suggest my interpretation is true, and much less to suggest I am wrong.


Hey! (0.00 / 0)
I was waiting for you to discuss Paul's point about the detached manner being the extreme left of academia. I thought that Progressive Historians was an excellent rebuttal to that. It has not harmed Jeremy's career to do the explicit advocacy which happened on that blog, and he got respect from the broader history blogging community.

Otherwise, this thread is now a complete mess and I am sorry I wrote a word on it.  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  


[ Parent ]
Rootless succeeds! (0.00 / 0)
And the thread is, indeed, a complete mess. Yes, it reminds me of the primaries. Happy days.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
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