Are The Facts Enough???

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jan 18, 2009 at 19:46


My earlier diary Obama's "Avoidance of Ideology" had a multipart argument about E.J. Dionne's rationalization of Obama's avoidance of ideology in "Audacity Without Ideology".  The discussion was hijacked by a couple of trolls who inadvertantly made one of my points for me--that Obama's "anti-ideological" position was actually quite ideological in and of itself.  They made this point by launching a vitrolic ideological attack on me, and a number of other regulars, based on schematized misrepresentations of attitudes, arguments, ideas, you name it. They repeatedly ignored demands for specific examples, evidence, links, etc.  Their dogmatic refusal to discuss facts was eventually worn down, only to yield to a scattershot grab-bag approach, which never tied back to the original diary and the arguments presented therein.

It was, in short, remarkably similar to the phenomena discussed in "Southern Civil War Excuses: Proving My Point While Thinking You're Refuting It", and might even repay a more detailed analysis.  For now, however, I want to make another attempt to get at just one of arguments Dionne presented, and I'd like to do that by drawing on a recent column by Drew Westen,"Difficult Dilemmas in Word and Deed: The Costs and Benefits of Bipartisan Rhetoric in Resuscitating an Ailing Economy", directed specifically at one of "three keys to understanding Obama's approach to (and avoidance of) ideology," to wit:

"Right now, being empirical is in the progressive interest," since rightwing policies since Reagan "have been based more on faith in their worldview than on empirical tests."

A bit more explanation of Dionne's argument, and Westen's insight into what's wrong with it, on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Are The Facts Enough???
First off, here's Dionne at greater lenght:

But Obama's anti-ideological turn is also a functional one for a progressive, at least for now. Since Ronald Reagan, ideology has been the terrain of the right. Many of the programs that conservatives have pushed have been based more on faith in their worldview than on empirical tests. How else could conservatives claim that cutting taxes would actually increase government revenue, or that trickle-down economic approaches were working when the evidence of middle-class incomes said otherwise?

Thus the second key: Right now, being empirical is in the progressive interest. Note that data show that the parts of the stimulus package most congenial to liberals (increases in unemployment insurance and food stamps; fiscal aid to the states; government spending on public projects) are also the parts with the most economic bang. In other words, progressives don't need ideology to make their case.

In this respect, at least, Obama is rather like Franklin D. Roosevelt, who dismissed the conservative economic doctrines of the 1920s. "We must lay hold of the fact that economic laws are not made by nature," Roosevelt said, directly countering the central premises of orthodox economics. "They are made by human beings." Thus did Roosevelt make pragmatism and experimentation enemies of conservative ideology. Obama, wearing a smile as he stands on a mountain of data, is doing the same.

Forgoing what I've said before about this, I'd like to go directly to Westen [with my emphasis], whose own research tells him clearly that facts are not enough, and whose historical knowledge of FDR is a little more salient than Dionne's:

Despite the dramatic economic downturn of the last four months, the concept of "government as the problem" remains firmly embedded in the minds of most voters. It will take not only an active and effective government that leads us out of the Depression but a consistent narrative over many years to change what most Americans unconsciously hold to be self-evident.

And herein lies one of the great dilemmas facing Obama as the communicator-in-chief. He ran as both the candidate of change and the candidate of pragmatism and bipartisan action. So does he tell the story of our economic collapse and what we need to do about it without mentioning that someone actually caused it? Or does he do what Roosevelt did, and make clear from the start that the Depression we are facing is not a matter of impersonal, natural business cycles that wax and wane but a man-made disaster, and that an actively created disaster requires an actively created response?

Does he reach across the aisle to the people who engineered the problems that bedevil him, who want none of his bipartisan pragmatism and would rather use federal loans to GM and Chrysler as an opportunity to continue the Reagan-Bush policies of union bashing and union busting, blaming failures of management, a crisis of consumer confidence, and a credit crunch that makes the purchase of any new car (including a Toyota) impossible, on greedy union workers? Or does he ask Boehner and Shelby whether they truly believe we should give up American-quality jobs with hard-won American benefits and environmental and safety standards and embrace as our model the wages and benefits of Chinese, Indian, and Mexican workers?

I do not ask these questions because I have the answers. I ask them because they need to be asked. FDR offered a forward-looking message of hope and fortitude and economic experimentation until we had it right, but he ran against Hoover even when Hoover was no longer on the ballot. He understood that the ideology that had led to the Great Depression was a formidable foe that would not go away easily, and he built a new consensus against that foe that lasted 50 years. If Obama wants to stand above the fray (at least as long as the Republicans in Congress will let him), he may do well to anoint a surrogate with enough authority and ability to grab the headlines (e.g., Joe Biden, who has both the gravitas and the sense of humor to respond to the likes of Boehner and McConnell) to remind voters over and over what they need to know and remember: that it took a group of wrong-headed, self-serving ideologues several years to destroy our economy, and that their radical conservative ideology is the problem, not the solution.

This passage from Westen captures both the conceptual argument and the direct political application.  What's important to recognize is that up to this point, neither has been directly responded to.  All the defenses or apologias for Obama's approach have been more or less canned or formulaic.  And I think that Westen does a very good job of putting the question in a way that cries out for something better than that.

Because the answer can prove pivotal for whether Obama is able to prevail as FDR did, I think that Westen's questioning cries out for an answer that all of us should want to hear, sooner, rather than later.


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"Progressives don't need ideology (4.00 / 7)
to make their case," kinda says it all, doesn't it? I mean, it's not enough to go into a knife fight carrying a plastic spoon, you've got to tie both hands behind your back as well.

And it's not like having "the facts" on our side is some kind of new development, it has always been the case. But we are the ones who have to fight for them, not the other way around. Facts without people willing to stand up for them might as well not exist.

Montani semper liberi


Agreed. (4.00 / 4)
It's a real no-brainer. It takes a certain type of learned ignorance to not get this.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Brainer (4.00 / 2)
I actually think this is the weakest part of your analysis.  "Post-partisan competence" is an excellent to sell whatever program Obama wants to sell.  This tactic doesn't work beyond Obama's presidency and doesn't help the progressive cause long term, but it certainly helps Obama and, assuming he actually passes progressive stuff, progressives in the short term.

Of course, you'll say "post-partisan competence" is an ideology, and you'd be right.  But that doesn't change its ability to sell.

The ability to publicly claim you are just following the facts and evidence, but aren't being ideological, can be powerful.  As Republicans push back, it can be used to attack their ideology from a neutral-looking position.

Sure, someone needs to step in and sell the point that all this realty-based problem solving is part of the liberal package for the long-term promotion of liberalism, but it doesn't have to be Obama and it doesn't have to be now.  (Personally, I'm hoping it will be Obama sometime in the next few years, but I'm not expecting it.)

Now, it might take a certain type of learned ignorance to buy politics sold this way, but the Versailles have been teaching from that book for decades.


[ Parent ]
I Agree With You Approaching It From This Angle (4.00 / 1)
But if, for example, you've been following Digby's writing about how the stimulus is being attacked by gasbags, and the lack of coherent push-back, then I think you'll see why I'm more concerned in the short run. And that's where my comment was coming from.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The point I think you are ignoring is sell it to whom? (4.00 / 2)
The American people are his customer, not the Republican and Bush dog crooks that created this mess.  

If Obama has to cede to every right wing piece of dogma to get to change, he won't have changed anything.  He will be on their turf and on borrowed time, until "they" change the framing and make him eat their dogma.  They have no shame.  Imagine the nerve of standing up their and preaching "fiscal responsibility", and Obama ceding to them on the topic.  

Strategy:  Does the end justify the means?  I don't think so.  I'm more in the camp of, "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."  Some things are just right(empirical), and right does make might.    

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
But this is precisely Obama's tactic to sell to the American people. (4.00 / 1)
Of course they are the customer. You really think Repug politicos care about a "post-partisan competence" framing? It isn't ceding to right wing dogma; it's strictly a larger salesmanship technique.
       You can certainlyly argue whether the ends justify the means here, but I don't think you can argue that the audience for this rhetoric is confined to the right wing.

[ Parent ]
Confusing things (0.00 / 0)
One of the reasons the non-ideological talk bothers liberals is because it leaves open the possibility to do what you say.  I know I'm worried on a couple fronts.  One can use this talk to promote liberal values, but one could also use this talk to promote just about anything.

Since liberalism is actually reality based, it works better for us than anyone else, but not necessarily by enough to matter in the real world.

But your assumption that promoting "non-ideological competence" requires ceding to the Republicans is not correct.  It is simply an option one would rather not be available as easily.


[ Parent ]
But I Think You'd Agree (0.00 / 0)
But your assumption that promoting "non-ideological competence" requires ceding to the Republicans is not correct.

That after decades of conservative rhetorical dominance, there's a certain background bias that inevitably sneaks into the judgments of "competence."

The whole "daddy party" BS, for example. which assumes that military "solutions" work better than diplomacy, or that torture is effective at getting useful intelligence, even when the intelligence agencies themselves--where a good deal more actual competence resides--will tell you these are both erroneous.

This is the sort of systemic biasing that concerns me, and I just don't think it can be effectively combatted except by mounting a counter-hegemonic response that is, by it's very nature, explicitly ideological.  I am, btw, perfectly happy with (in fact, I'd insist on) having empiricism and competence as crucial elements of any such counter-hegemonic project.  It's just that they can't stand on their own.  They are inevitably connected to other things, and if we don't define what those other things are, then the connections will be defined for us.

And, of course, they already are, in the "daddy party" models of "competence" alluded to above, for example.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah, I agree (4.00 / 1)
The problem of using rhetoric that can be used for any purpose is it can easily come back to haunt you; so yes, I agree.  Of course, the same can be said towards the Republican's use of this rhetoric.

My hope is we are seeing the slide from conservative dominated narrative to liberal dominated narrative, with the first step being to take over those non-ideological portions of the vocabulary previously used to promote conservatism.

There is nothing innately conservative about "Broderism", for example.  But it is clear Broderism was used to promote the conservative agenda.  The same can be said for competence and probably a slew of other things I'm not thinking of.

While Obama doesn't explicitly promote liberalism, he does explicitly promote two of the most important aspects of it: respecting everyone and government can be used to solve our problems.  So he is doing some of the lifting, but certainly not all of it.

My biggest concern is Obama buys into some of his rhetoric too much and will concede points and power he doesn't need to on the assumption it will pay off in the long run.


[ Parent ]
Last time I checked (4.00 / 3)
the facts can be interpreted, spun and presented all sorts of ways, that can be used to advance both right and left ideas. They don't, by themselves, clearly indicate, or at least yell out, a coherent and correct interpretation of reality. That's where framing, ideology and explanation come in. I'm no philosophical or framing expert, but facts by themselves are insufficient, and need to be woven into and used to support an overall narrative and frame. Not sure why Dionne doesn't get this, except perhaps he's been around people who believe it, or want him to believe it, so long, that he's let it do a job on him.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
There's Also The Question Of WHAT Facts (4.00 / 5)
Different economic theories, for example, ignore, discount, or devalue different things.

For example, market-based economics that ignores externalities pays no heed whatsoever to the $30 billion or so of externalized costs from goods movement in California that includes more premature deaths than result from all homicides. If businesses were forced to pay their true costs of doing business, the entire industry would have to radically restructure.

Indeed, many foreign manufacturers would probably no longer be able to compete with domestic manufacturers.  Trade would be reduced, but quality of life would be enhanced, life-span would extend, domestic production would increase--all things that would produce an improved economy as a combined result, but you couldn't see that if you only measured the market interactions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 2)
Externalities--i.e. inconvenient facts--have a remarkable tendency of debunking virtually every RW myth. Universal health care/insurance is another one that the facts clearly show is a good and necessary idea--if everyone's covered, and pays in according to their ability, nearly everyone benefits, both in terms of their health, and economically.

And they also never mention that many if not most of their precious "free market"-derived economic fortunes depended utterly on government incentives and often handouts, e.g. canals, railroads and tariffs in the 19th century, massive military and public infrastucture investment and corporate welfare in the 20th century.

And for the life of me I'll never be able to tell if they truly believe in these myths, making them idiots, or they know that they're myths but don't mind promoting them because it's good for their bottom line and power, making them rapacious liars. Perhaps it doesn't really matter, but on a purely forensic psychological level, I'm dying to know. What makes them bullshit the rest of us? Stupidity, insanity, or sociopathic megalomania?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Good Questions (4.00 / 2)
And for the life of me I'll never be able to tell if they truly believe in these myths, making them idiots, or they know that they're myths but don't mind promoting them because it's good for their bottom line and power, making them rapacious liars. Perhaps it doesn't really matter, but on a purely forensic psychological level, I'm dying to know. What makes them bullshit the rest of us? Stupidity, insanity, or sociopathic megalomania?

I've often wondered myself.  And I have my suspicions, and even some evidence, but I'd just love to have really solid, multi-disciplinary ethnographic/sociological/open survery, etc., etc., etc. studies to nail it down beyond a shadow of any possible doubt.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
John Dean referred to formal studies (4.00 / 1)
conducted by social scientist Robert Altemeyer into the mindset of such people in his book of several years ago, Conservatives Without Conscience. His conclusion was basically that they're authoritarians, either as followers, leaders, or both. So he analyzed HOW they think, but not so much WHY they think this way. I'd love to see studies done on that too.

Also, obviously, they have more than one reason for promoting these lies. Some because they're stupid, or brainwashed. Some because of social and professional pressure. Some because it serves their interests. Some because they're flat-out nuts. And some for a combination of all of these. But that doesn't make it any less interesting, to me at least, to try to figure out why, and how, this works on an individual level, for both the followers and leaders. I mean, we're talking about people who--most of them at least--deny evolution!

It's also about more than just idle curiosity. As the saying goes, know your enemy.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
".. basically that they're authoritarians," (4.00 / 2)
This is it. The entire foundation, beause it crosses cultural boundaries, is the need to creat the context of being the sole arbiter of goodness, of truth and of obedience. In Isalmic based cultures of fundamentalist control and demanded obedience, in Christian cultures of fundamentalist control and demanded obedience etc. In culture after culture the patterns of "My authority comes from this place (book, oral history, talisman or temple) whose authority you may not question"

It is the "Because I Said So" doctrine.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
Well, if you say so... (4.00 / 2)
</snark>

:-)

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 4)
We can trust the facts when we can trust the academics.

The trouble is that there's a whole cottage industry to arguing in bad faith.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
I think I get Dionne (0.00 / 0)
We all see the damage that right wing ideologues have wreaked on America in recent years.  Purely ideological politics has earned its bad name. If you want to make something happen, ideology can be a very powerful tool but it can also be a form of ignorance--about other ideas.

Hell, I am an architect and I often criticize ideological inflexibility in my own profession. Nevertheless, I have also come to see that major shifts in social or cultural (or political) practices require something of a coherent framework of recognizable ideas and that is the definition of ideology.

So I guess you could say I have a both/and ideology.


[ Parent ]
It seems to me that ideology, (4.00 / 3)
defined as a coherent set of ideas that make up a worldview, does not necessarily need to be disconnected from the facts on the ground. Yes, an overly ideological stance can certainly lead to rigidity, but not inevitably. In other words you can have an ideology and remain open to empirical evidence and the possibility of modifying your views.

More importantly, ideology can provide a clear framework for political action and social organizing. A clear (but false) ideology is why the Right has been so effective at ramming its bad policies down the throats of unwitting Americans. The one lesson that progressives should take from the Right is that ideology is an important political instrument.

I think most of us would consider ourselves pragmatists but it is ideological, in the bad sense, to believe that individual awareness and agency will spontaneously coalesce into coordinated political action. It ain't gonna happen and most Americans will feel they are adrift is a sea of political facts and counter facts. Not good at all.


[ Parent ]
An Argument for Why to Push Obama Without Compromising His Progressive Cred. (4.00 / 4)
Paul makes a good point about the need for undoing the damage of conservative ideology in order to push a more progressive agenda.  Obama did this some on the campaign trail--it was what made his convention speech so great.  

I think what is frustrating is that when Obama does make this case about failed conservative ideology in his speeches it is frickin' awesome .  I can't think of a politician, short of Bill Clinton perhaps, who is more skilled at revealing the failures of conservative ideology.  

Here's what I think that a lot of your commenters may be missing.  Lets assume (for the sake of argument) that Obama does actually hold real progressive beliefs.  Unlike a conservative president, who faces very little pressure from powerful, moneyed interest groups, a liberal president faces huge pressure from the winners of the current economic system--who are also the most powerful interests in Washington--not to make any changes that mess with their profit margin.  Let me be more clear.  A conservative president faces no pressure from these groups because the conservative agenda does not threaten their power.  The liberal agenda, on the other had, attempts to create a more just and equal society, which inescapably reduces the power and wealth of those who have benefited from past inequities.  

This is a very black and white picture, and the real world is more complex.  There are undoubtably many powerful people who want to fix this country,  something that Obama invoked time and again on the campaign trail ("Warren Buffet wants me to raise his taxes!") But the basic anxiety I have is that Obama will simply become part of the establishment--if he isn't already-- because it is very difficult to do otherwise. I'm not excusing this, I'm just stating a fact.  Both political parties have become increasingly corrupt.  Again: there are many well-meaning people who want to fix this country, who end up--somehow--having strange problems grasping the necessary action to actually fix the problem when that action conflicts with their interests or those of their close friends.  

Bush was able to implement a bold and radical conservative agenda without pressure from his base.  His base acted as cheerleaders.  He didn't need them to be anything else because his agenda benefitted rich and powerful people which made the legislation a lot easier to pass.  

It is not the same for Obama.  The progressive vision of this country will require a fight.  Not ultimately between red and blue, or even necessarily between Republican and Democrat, but between a few very, very, very powerful groups (who are making sure that everyone in Washington knows exactly how essential their profit margin is to the health of the state)   against those in Washington who somehow manage to stick to their progressive ideals despite all the pressure exerted on them not to.  I say this not because I think that Republicans will support a progressive vision, but because many democrats are afraid too.  They too have heard the trickle-down rhetoric for many years and it has sunk in.   That is why Obama, and all democrats in congress, need progressives yelling in their ears.  Because if Obama does not hear those voices, than it is all-too probable that he will simply succumb to the beltway groupthink that reflects the interests of those empowered by the current system.  This is only human.  Given his cabinet choices, I wonder if this has not already occurred.  I'm not laying down any judgement, but as my post argues, such a judgement is irrelevant.  Liberal voices need to be heard in the administration and Dear-Leaderism will not work to implement a progressive agenda because it is an agenda that rouses powerful voices of opposition already well-ensconced in Washington.  


nobody disagrees with the necessity of progressive pressure (2.00 / 2)
And I have seen zero support for "dear leaderism". Instead, there is disagreement about what is actually happening and what course progressive politics should take. I'm a strong supporter of Obama, but I take him at his word - his politics are far to my right. Many of us supported Obama from a pragmatic analysis of political possibilities. We saw Obama as able to build a broad coalition on shared values and disarm the right and break some of its success in limiting political debate to an arid "partisan" argument on superficial issues. What annoys us now, is that some of the same people, like Paul R., who blithely assured us during the primaries and the general  that Obama was a babe in the woods, lacking the mental weapons to confront the big bad republicans have apparently learned nothing from the experience and want to hammer on the same themes.

for me, stopping the war and generating a massive public works program are the two most critical efforts of the Obama presidency - efforts that will potentially build a progressive constituency. And endless complaints that Obama does not say things in a way that is comfortable to "activists" seem pointless.


[ Parent ]
Pure Delusion (4.00 / 4)
Many of us supported Obama from a pragmatic analysis of political possibilities. We saw Obama as able to build a broad coalition on shared values and disarm the right and break some of its success in limiting political debate to an arid "partisan" argument on superficial issues.

And, indeed, that was the shared sense that lead all of the Open Left frontpagers to endorse Obama as well, some sooner than others.

What annoys us now, is that some of the same people, like Paul R., who blithely assured us during the primaries and the general  that Obama was a babe in the woods, lacking the mental weapons to confront the big bad republicans have apparently learned nothing from the experience and want to hammer on the same themes.

It is your dichotomous, all-or-nothing mindset that can't comprehend how I can both criticize and support Obama.  In fact, if anything, I had more faith that Obama would prevail, and was more optimistic than the final outcome warranted.  And, of course, that optimism was based in part on a perception of Republican weakness that Obama did not fully exploit.

But given that I talked seriously about him winning, or at least competing strongly in states like North Carolina, North Dakota and Indiana, it is frankly ludicrous for you to be charaterizing me the way that you are.

You are not arguing with facts, but with fictions of your own creation.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
some of my favorite PR quotes from the good old days (2.67 / 3)
"It comes from Obama's relentless commitment to equivocation and blurring.

It's like he's wearing that suit from A Scanner Darkly."

This debate was Obama's whole campaign in miniature: morally ambiguous, a slew of missed opportunities for devastating blows, and a fundamental lack of a well-crafted plan, but a good-enough strategic posture smoothly executed to pull out a tie, which is all he really needed at this point in time.

Collectively, these aticles go to show that Barack Obama tacitly--at the very least--embraces a view of political history since the 1960s that is deeply shaped by rightwing fantasies of liberal treachery, and that deliberately ignores and excuses the actual reality of rightwing treachery.  The charge is not that Obama makes such a fantasy the cornerstone of his politics.  He clearly does not.  But he does allow this fantasy to define the limits and outline the shape of his politics.  It is defines the box in which he lives--and in which he would have all of us live with him.

http://www.openleft.com/showCo...


[ Parent ]
And I Stand By All Of Them (4.00 / 5)
What part of "critical support" don't you understand?

Wait.  Let me guess.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
These are good quotes!! what do you object to? (4.00 / 1)
I endorsed Obama, and I criticize Obama, and I still strongly value Obama.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
I Think Everything You Say Is True (4.00 / 3)
I'm just not sure about the weighting of factors.

Above all, I am certainly struck by the seemingly vast gap between his most inspiring speechifying (Obama 1) and his often maddening backtracking, side-stepping, and circle-walking (Obama 2).

It's like I want to take Obama 2 and sit him down in front of a large-screen video of Obama 1, and say, "See! See! See!"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why has this important thread been allowed to be thrown sideways into a troll-flamewar.? (4.00 / 1)
It is the serious, respectful development of argument, policy, analysis and program that makes this site different than many that can be named.

I urge banning of the offensive drivel producer.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


OT, a few threads ago (0.00 / 0)
In another sign that the apocalypse has not yet arrived, Israel Matzav linked sympathetically to the Dr. Abuelaish story. Israel Matzav has seen Dr. Abuelaish regularly on his/her TV.  

Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, and lightness has a call that's hard to hear.  

"government as the problem" (0.00 / 0)
"the concept of "government as the problem" remains firmly embedded in the minds of most voters"

Some governments as specifically constituted are the problem. For example, the ones Americans have experienced for the last eight to sixteen  years or more.

I can't help, but wonder, though: "Government" is what problem exactly? If it is, then "no government" is the solution? Does a majority of the population really believe this?


Oops... rephrasing (0.00 / 0)
Some governments, as specifically constituted are a problem for many who live under them

[ Parent ]
I think the key really is aristocracy. (4.00 / 1)
"The poor object to being governed badly, the rich to being governed at all."

"No government" was never an option, what the Conservatives (the rich, religious right,  and their assorted hanger ons) really mean when they say "government is the problem" is that they should not be governed, but other people, not themselves, should be. And firmly.

For example, they have the right to buy and sell guns to terrorists at gun shows, but the government needs to tell me when to become a mother. They have the right to turn every public event into a mission field (see above) yet gay Americans do not deserve marriage. Its a nice trick, if you can get away with it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Of Course Not! (0.00 / 0)
"Government" is what problem exactly? If it is, then "no government" is the solution? Does a majority of the population really believe this?

It's but one of many mutually contradictory beliefs that people hold, because they're related to different narrative frameworks, rather than to an abstract logical space.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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