Clinton: I Am An Insider Who Will Compromise

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 19:00


In what I would have to consider an extremely strange move for the primary season, it appears Hillary Clinton has started using a new stump speech that trumpets her status as an insider and her willingness to compromise with Republicans. Those are not exactly her words, but they are pretty darn close:

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York unveiled a new stump speech on Sunday, outlining the "four big goals" she would have as president and saying she was willing to "work within the system" and make "principled compromises" to achieve them.(…)

"From my time in the White House and in the Senate, I learned you bring change by working in the system established by the Constitution," Mrs. Clinton said at an early afternoon rally in Concord, drawing a pointed contrast to the outsider messages of Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards. Referring to the Roosevelts and Johnson, she said, "They got big things done because they knew it wasn't just about the dream, it's about the results."

"I want to work within the system," Mrs. Clinton said. "You can't pretend the system doesn't exist."

Um, OK. I have looked in vain to find the entire speech online, but those quotes from the New York Times will have to do for now. It is certainly an interesting tactic to basically start using a variation of the attacks of your two closest opponents, John Edwards and Barack Obama, as a means of selling yourself to voters. In this speech, she is presenting herself as an insidery technocrat, which is unusual as it breaks from the typical red meat diet voters receive from candidates in a primary campaign. Further, telling people that you plan to compromise ahead of time is also unusual as it comes at Obama and Edwards from the right. Outside of her inexplicable comments on nuclear weapons, from her vote against funding the war to her partisan rhetoric on electability, this is a direction she has refused to engage so far. If Clinton keeps using this language, it will become much easier for either Edwards or Obama to label Clinton as an agent of compromise and a self-identified insider. If they are willing to step up, and slightly redirect their attacks, it seems like she is playing into their hands.

Then again, while this seems like dangerous territory for Clinton, it is just so crazy that it might work. One of the things we discovered last year in the MyDD / Wright Consulting / Courage Campaign Strategy Memo for Democratic Congressional Challengers is that the electorate does not really believe that one party or one individual is going to bring about any sweeping change in Washington. Given this, I have to wonder if there might be a strange brilliance behind Clinton using this sort of language. While most candidates seem to talk of igniting grandiose change in Washington that never happens, perhaps voters will hear what Clinton is saying and be relieved by her honesty. Everyone thinks Clinton is the consummate insider, and many progressives think she is too willing to compromise. So, as with her lobbyist comment at the Yearly Kos candidates forum, rather than engaging in a contorted denial no one would believe and then improbably trying to recreate her image as an outsider even though no one will ever see her as such, she instead just comes out stating that yes she is an insider, and yes she thinks compromise can be good. This could very well work, as it will make Clinton look comfortable in her own skin, and make it appear as though she has nothing to hide.

Whether or not this helps or hurts Clinton, either way, I think this new language she is using will serve as an interesting test of Peter Daou's Triangle theory (Peter is currently a senior staff member of Hillary Clinton's campaign.) Albeit with a different tone and different qualifiers, Clinton is now saying the same things about herself that progressive bloggers have been saying about her for a long time: she is too much of an insider and her centrist leanings make her far too quick to compromise with Republicans. As such, after nibbling around the edges of this critique for a while and never naming names, the door now seems open for Edwards, Obama or someone else to broadly and vociferously adopt the most common anti-Clinton critique seen in the progressive blogosphere and potentially create a new narrative around Clinton in so doing. If I understand Daou's "triangle" theory correctly, if the most common progressive blogosphere critique of Hillary Clinton were picked up by multiple non-Clinton campaigns, that critique would become legitimate in the eyes of the media as both the progressive blogosphere and campaigns X, Y and Z would all be saying the same thing about Hillary Clinton. It is only at that point, and not a moment before, that it is possible the established media would start to repeat the blogosphere's critique of Hillary Clinton, and thus a new, potentially damaging conventional wisdom surrounding her would be born.

Then again, to pivot a third time in this post, this might never become conventional for two reasons. First, it is possible that no other Democratic campaign will attack her as too eager to compromise with Republicans after spending the last month making electability based comments about her high unfavorables. Second, even if other campaigns do adopt this critique, the media might not accept it as legitimate because of the way she has been attacked by Republicans both in the past and in the now. So, there might be some real barriers toward making this attack stick.

Still, at the very least, I now think the door has opened quite a bit for any non-Clinton Democratic candidate to start using the most common critique of Hillary Clinton in the progressive blogosphere. With Clinton herself basically repeating that critique, if adopted by other campaigns it has the potential of portraying her as a compromising, insidery Democrat just like our Congressional leadership that has failed to do much about the war. That leadership has seen its approval rating crash among liberals and progressives since the first capitulation vote. If Clinton develops a similar image among the rank and file, it will become much more difficult for her to win the nomination.

Chris Bowers :: Clinton: I Am An Insider Who Will Compromise

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image (4.00 / 4)
Her image among the rank and file of both parties, as a tough Democratic partisan, is set. This speech was in New Hampshire (Live Free or Die) and seems to be designed to appeal to independents.

Hillary Clinton's bipartisan efforts have been from a position of strength and do not carry the risks of Obama's. Neither the Obama nor the Edwards campaign have any room to attack her there.


Maybe, It Appeals To A Lot Of Republicans, Too! (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
This is truly stupid.... (0.00 / 0)
...abysmally so. She is doing the one thing that could hurt her which is claiming ownership of the status quo.

Jeebus!

Right trak/wrong trak is 35/65 and she wants to own that?

This looks like, I say looks like, the new meme I was ready to roll out for the Fall 'Selling Season' which is:

'Bush Dog Democrats' and 'Democrat' Party LeaderSheep are not really moral cowards they are just....

Stupid.

Or maybe the Chinese in addition to hacking the DOD computers have put something in the water?

I's stay away from the tap water if I was you guys. And yeah, I know HRC is on the road....

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


There's a limitation here (0.00 / 0)
  Howard Dean observed, after the 2004 primaries, that going negative on your opponent works well in a one-on-one campaign, but tends to be counterproductive in a multi-candidate campaign, because the "attacking" candidate will experience a backlash and the voters will have somewhere else to go.

  That's what happened when Gephardt, and only Gephardt, was assigned the take-out-Dean role in the Iowa caucuses in 2004. Gephardt attacked, Dean fired back, and they both went down. But the other candidates remained unscathed.

  As long as Edwards and Obama remain viable challengers to Hillary, going negative against her carries risks -- voters might buy the anti-Hillary attacks and abandon her, but in favor of the candidate who didn't launch the negative ads. It's a variation of the prisoner's dilemma.

  As for Hillary, I can't imagine that bragging about her insiderness is going to win over any independents, who are quite disgusted with Washington, but that's the strange little world Democratic consultants inhabit -- you're either an insider or you don't exist.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


Reaching Out to Independent Voters? (4.00 / 1)
Perhaps Hillary is trying to appeal to NH's unaffiliated voters, who are eligible to vote in a Democratic primary.

The growth of New Hampshire's independent vote is reflected in voter registration statistics: In 1996, 32 percent of the state's registered voters said they were "undeclared" in party allegiance; a decade later, that number had grown to 44 percent.
[...]
According to data accumulated last winter by the University of New Hampshire Survey Center, 68 percent of the state's independent voters plan to ask for a Democratic primary ballot.

Right now, unaffiliateds appear to be leaning toward Obama, but that could change.

"New Hampshire independents are attracted to new things in American politics. Hillary Clinton and John McCain have a lot of virtues, but being new is not one of them," said Dante Scala, an expert on the state's politics at the University of New Hampshire. "Obama is the face of something new. But the primary is months off and the question is, how long can he be out there and still be that new face?"

Obama has tried to position himself as a "uniter" and someone who can get along with everyone, Republicans included. Hillary seems to be copying that approach. Edwards hasn't really gone down that road - going out of his way to point out that he can get along with  members of the Republican Party. I think Edward's strategy makes a lot more sense.

The whole point is to move the country in the RIGHT direction, not take it down the middle just for the sake of being in the middle. Why compromise on what's right?


She assumes correctly that it will not matter (0.00 / 0)
Honeslty, why should she care?

The worst criticism will come from blogs, but it will be relatively tame. The MSM will focus on polls.  Very few people talk message. I mean, for example, how have you done a diary on her message impact down ticket in toss up races if she's our nominee in 2008 in battle ground states? Given what we know was the impact down ticket of Bush in 2002,2004 and 2006, the whole death of presidential coattail theorized earlier in this decade seems to have been premature.

  So long as deeper analysis of message is lacking, and there is no major "wizzard behind the curtain" moment the nomination is hers. That's the assumption. It maybe hubris, but its not a wrong one to make under the circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, she's made mistakes, a la "lobbists represent ordinary Americans." But, she will use identity politics when necessary ("I'm your girl") or engage in Rovian/Luntz usurption of language- ie, the use of "rightwing smear." It's brilliant because this retort perfectly plays on liberal pscyhology.  We have these simple bumper sticker slogans without that can be used for illegitimate ends.

Nevermind, her use of "rightwing smear" is really an Orwellian shut down of criticism from her left. What matters is that she or someone else says "rightwing frame" and it plays on our pscyhology. We remember the 90s and what happened so she gets a pass. That's the theory.

The dynamics of this race reminds me quite a bit of Bush. Faith based support over reality of what the candidate is saying. Remember in 2004, when people in MS I believe were asked whether Bush supported the import of drugs from abroad, and the majority responded 'yes"?  The goal it appears is to run down the clock of the primary season with people only having a vague general view of whom they are voting for and nostalgic rememberance of Clinton.

The other day, by the way, I saw something where you said polls showing people deeply involved, and understand what the candidates stand for or something like this. Here's the deal. I don't believe that poll. I believe most people have no idea where many of these candidates stand on issues. I would love to have polled people to ask them do they like Clinton's comprenhensive plan to cover all Americans under universal healthcare? As I learned from watching Jay Leno, sometimes the best way to understand exactly what Americans know is not vague "how closely are you following the race" questions, but specific questions to see if you can trip them up with how 'really' involved knowledge wise they are. Because we don't on the democratic side have that involvement - I don't see why it will matter that she keeps changing her message.

In many ways, the GOP has a more open primary - in that any one can still win- this cycle than we do.


I don't think most people .. (0.00 / 0)
no matter the party .. know where the candidates stand on most issues ... just look at the amount of Republicans that don't know Rudy is pro-choice

[ Parent ]
Agree 100 percent (4.00 / 2)
Which is why I say the Democratic Party is as faith based as the GOP. The point is that it's easier to talk about the GOP here (which is what Clinton has realized) than to do any substantive full front assault on the leadership in the party. They simply had to wait until there was  a modicum of sucess like 2006 to do it.

OT: The Clintons are clearly trying to reassert their control over the party. Here's a post written by this poster over at mydd.com who goes by the screen name hwc. He's a major Clinton supporter with front page privileges. This is what is what he wrote:

"Forget Florida and Michigan jumping the gun. That could have been handled with a slap on the wrist reduction in their delegates, which is what the RNC is doing...not barring the candidates from participating.
There's a much bigger portion of the iceberg under the surface. Many people in the party (including the Clintonistas, Rahm Emmanuel, etc.) have openly stated that they think Howard Dean is incompetent and spinning his wheels at the DNC. Dean has catered to the "grassroots" crowd and is viewed as being a failure at professional major league operations required to win national presidential elections (data mining, microtargeting voter databases, etc.) The Republicans have been killing the Dems since 2002 and Dean is seen as more interested in paying for three college interns in the state party offices in Mississippi than in doing this essential infrastructure building.
Here's an article on the database that Harold Ickes has built:
http://www.washingto... tent/article/2006/03/07/AR2006030701860_ pf.html

A group of well-connected Democrats led by a former top aide to Bill Clinton is raising millions of dollars to start a private firm that plans to compile huge amounts of data on Americans to identify Democratic voters and blunt what has been a clear Republican lead in using technology for political advantage.

The effort by Harold Ickes, a deputy chief of staff in the Clinton White House and an adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), is prompting intense behind-the-scenes debate in Democratic circles. Officials at the Democratic National Committee think that creating a modern database is their job, and they say that a competing for-profit entity could divert energy and money that should instead be invested with the national party.

Ickes and others involved in the effort acknowledge that their activities are in part a vote of no confidence that the DNC under Chairman Howard Dean is ready to compete with Republicans on the technological front. "The Republicans have developed a cadre of people who appreciate databases and know how to use them, and we are way behind the march," said Ickes, whose political technology venture is being backed by financier George Soros.

Here's another, that details more of the dislike between the Clinton and Dean camps:
http://www.tnr.com/d... amp;s=edsall080706

During a recent appearance on "The Daily Show," Jon Stewart asked Howard Dean about his controversial "50-state strategy," under which the Democratic National Committee (DNC) is allocating significant resources to parties in red states as well as blue ones. How many states, Stewart wanted to know, do critics of Dean's strategy want the Democrats to focus on? Dean replied, "If they had their choice, probably one--New York." 

If that was a shot at Hillary Clinton, consider it retaliation. Even before Dean took over the DNC in February 2005, Washington-based Democratic operatives, some aligned with Clinton's presidential campaign, tossed around the idea of trying to sideline Dean in 2008 by creating a position called "general chairman" and appointing Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell to fill it. The putsch was quickly abandoned--Dean had built too much loyalty among the DNC's 447 members to make the plan viable--but Clinton's backers remain determined to prevent a man they view as a loose cannon from undermining their bid for the White House.

Clinton's camp is seeking to change this landscape. Its strategy appears to be twofold. First, it is laying the groundwork to circumvent the DNC in the event that Clinton wins the nomination. Her advisers see Dean as a maverick, and they want to depend on him as little as possible during the general election. "The DNC is going to be peripheral," says one Clinton strategist. "We are going to have our own field staff, starting way before the primaries begin, right through November 7." He points out that she is prepared to reject public financing during the primaries and the general election. (Clinton does not lack for money: She has raised $32.2 million for her Senate reelection and has $22 million in the bank--all transferable to her presidential campaign, according to PoliticalMoneyLine.) This would allow her to keep the field staff she develops during the primaries on her payroll during the general election--instead of shifting it to the DNC, as previous candidates have done. Plus, in a move widely and correctly interpreted as a rebuke to Dean, Clinton strategist Harold Ickes recently established a private voter database to compete with a similar database being built by the DNC. Ickes's move--as well as Clinton's formidable array of experienced advisers, including Terry McAuliffe, Howard Wolfson, James Carville, Mark Penn, and others--will give Clinton added independence from the DNC.

And more:
http://www.denverpos... ts/ci_5618688

According to "The Thumpin'," an upcoming book by Naftali Bendavid on the 2006 contest, the attack on Dean was instigated by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, and executed by a former Clinton White House aide, Rep. Rahm Emanuel, the Democrat from Chicago who led the congressional campaign committee.

"They're not phone banking, they're not doing anything. ... They've burned cash," Emanuel griped to Rep. Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader, the book recounts. "They couldn't find their ass with both hands tied behind their back."

When the campaign was over, two Clinton intimates - consultant James Carville and pollster Stan Greenberg - went public with more complaints, with Carville declaring that Dean should be fired.
"Howard Dean's leadership is Rumsfeld-ian in its incompetence," Carville said.

So, needless to say, I think there is ample background to suggest that Dean is firmly in the anybody-but-Clinton column. It's important to keep that in mind as you view these little DNC dances. Note that Dean's major consulting firm at the DNC is Blue State Digital, the outfit that created the 1984 ad used to kick off the Obama campaign.

It's also important to remember that Dean's detractors are the only people to have elected a Democratic president in the last 30 years."

To anyone who cared about moving the party forward, this should be of major concern, and yet, all we get are polls and their breakdown.


[ Parent ]
In answer to the article .. (0.00 / 0)
Rahm isn't the brightest blub either ... he wasted money on some seats .. where with a little money .. we could have money .. Larry Kissell in NC comes to mind immediately... if it wasn't for Dean .. the Republicans would probably still control both houses of Congress .. and yeah .. HRC and company want to transform the DNC into the DLC ... it's no secret .. there is a battle for the soul of the Democratic party going on right now

[ Parent ]
I forgot her use of the word "progressive" (0.00 / 0)
A lot of people here and else where were arguing form arguments about the candidates not using the word "progressive" without plainly requiring that the use also come with a certain meaning. Well, now she says she is a progressive, but her definition I would wager is out of step with what many may have meant.

progressive (4.00 / 1)
Seems to me that is a problem with the term "progressive", not with Hillary Clinton. The DLC started using "progressive" in the 80's for the same reason Bowers likes it now, unlike "liberal" "progressive" is a more plastic term that is popular with broad groups of American voters.

Clinton is pretty clear about her meaning of the term, she said liberal was descriptive but carried too much baggage so she calls herself a modern progressive.


[ Parent ]
My point is about the netroots actions (4.00 / 1)
Meaning that while they are holding back, Clinton is aggressively filling in the gaps of what "progressive" means to only mean Clintonism. Politics is about definition. People here are so busy still talking about what Bush is doing that they aren't looking at the agressive efforts within the party to keep the party right of center as to what these open ended words mean. In a way, the word progressive seems to allow for the precise triangulation that people in the blogs once arguing against because it can mean anything. in the short term, it's  not been demonized, but in the long term it seems to leave us where we were before- namely triangulation by another name.

[ Parent ]
It's Vietnam phrasing that I immediately recognized (0.00 / 0)
Being of the same age group as Hillary, I remember the Vietnam arguments quite well.  One was to work within the political system for change; the counter-argument was that the political system of the time would corrupt someone trying to work within it.

If I recall the polls correctly, Hillary is behind with her own age group--those Vietnam War activists and protestors--and these are folks who have found success within the system and Hillary needs these votes.  These folks are more likely to vote than the demographic of under $50,000 female group that currently supports Hillary.

I had an immediate gut reaction to the phrasing.  I would expect younger folks to miss this connection entirely.  It certainly has sent me down memory lane since I first read the original article.  It could work for her.


Chris Bowers (4.00 / 1)
Chris, I believe it would have been helpful to actually read Hillary's entire speech before attempting to analyze her words. Her entire speech was on C-span last evening.

In the speech, Hillary stated that she knows when to stand her ground and when to compromise. I don't know about you, but this is what I want from our President.  She also offered new rhetoric-change + experience to counter Obama's and Edwards' attacks. You focused on certain words highlighted in an article and turned them into a potential attack that you believe could be helpful to Obama and Edwards in the future. There is nothing here for Obama and Edwards to use in my opinion. I think Hillary's new stomp speech works on a multitude of levels. It appeals to Independents and to those that are on sitting on the fence. Besides, nothing Obama and Edward has used thus far has decreased Hillary lead and I don't believe your suggestions in this article will help them.


Does she? (4.00 / 4)
She knows when to compromise on abortion?

She knows when to compromise on getting troops out of Iraq?

She knows when to compromise on bombing Iran?

She knows when to compromise on appointing Supreme Court judges?

Well, why don't you just tell us all when to compromise, and the content of the compromise?  If SHE knows, I'm thrilled.  But please share that wisdom with the rest of us, rather than relying on a "trust me" statement that has ominous connotations.  After the FISA vote, "trust me" just doesn't cut it.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Hillary's change (4.00 / 1)
Hillary has just joined the fray with the message of change.

Obama has said he is the one to unite the Congress through bi/post partisan efforts.  He blamed both the Dems(Bill Clinton by inference) and the Repubs for the problems in Washington.  In essence he says that he will compromise when necessary to achieve the greater good.

Edwards has said he will fight, I'm assuming everyone, including the Democratic Congress to achieve his goals.

Hillary co-ops both of them and says she will fight when she needs to, but will be willing to compromise to accomplish her goals.  She goes further by saying that the others think they know how to fight or to compromise in order to accomplish true change, but she is really the only one with the necessary experience.

She is directly challenging Obama's and Edwards contention that she represents the past and was/is part of the problem in Washington today.  Is she wrong in saying that there is a system in place and it's best to work within that system.  I don't think she's saying roll over and play dead, but she is realistic about what you need to do accomplish things.


Coopting is exactly right (4.00 / 2)
But its not substantive cooptation, it's strategic messaging. Not the same thing at all. She's engaged in the later. As I said, it's very similar to Rovian/Luntz language manipulation. For example, she talks about being for women, but then provide no comprehensive healthcare plan. Maybe she will have one, but maybe she will not. The fact people aren't waiting to find out, but instead are supporting her because of adoption of language without policy says a lot about the dynamic of what's really happening.

[ Parent ]
She beats them their own game (4.00 / 1)
I think Hillary is showing that she can run circles around Edwards and Obama.  I don't think it's about manipulation, but effective communication.  Hillary has already been through the healthcare wringer, so Edwards and Obama had to release a plan to show that they even had an idea about healthcare.  The fact is that people believe Hillary when she talks about wanting universal or comprehensive healthcare, even if she doesn't rush out a specific plan.  They trust her.  Obama and Edwards talked about change and what they envision and Hillary responded.  She was savvy enough to know that she had to move beyond merely touting her experience and actually presenting people with the possibilities that her experience can bring.

[ Parent ]
You buy what you pay for (4.00 / 2)
You probably won't understand that comment for a few years.

[ Parent ]
What possibilities? ... (0.00 / 0)
Universal health care in her second term?  Sticking up for lobbyists?

[ Parent ]
Pre-announcing a compromise (4.00 / 2)
If you go into a negotiation announcing that you will meet the party on the other side of the table "halfway", you will come out of the negotiation with 25% of what you had hoped to achieve; the other party with 75%.

sPh


[ Parent ]
Where do you find 10 votes? (0.00 / 0)
When Sen. Obama got called naive for trying to find 16 votes but at least he was looking for 16 votes to add to a unified Democratic Senate.

If you look at the coalition that President Bill Clinton put together* on NAFTA and welfare reform he basically took an overwhelmingly Republican block and added a split Democratic party. That's the coalition that Sen. Hillary Clinton is going to be governing with if she's elected President.

Where does Sen. Clinton find her 10 votes to have a governing block in the Senate? It isn't from dragging ten Republicans kicking and screaming into a coalition. It's from shoving 1/2 of the Senate Democratic caucus overboard.

*credit to President Clinton for passing a good budget with only Democratic support. I suspect Sen. Clinton will be similarly inclined on fiscal matters, if not policy

John McCain


A Weird Contradiction, Conscious Or Not (0.00 / 0)
Let me assume for a moment -- and it may be an incorrect assumption -- that the 'compromise' statement is not simply a careful qualifier placed in a speech about something else, but will be emphasized by the Clinton campaign.

I understand that ordinary people say things about how government ought to work together, it's too partisan, etc., etc.

But are people really saying that they want more of the Republican policies that it seems like people have been rejecting?

Isn't this 'compromiser' identity just as perilous for the general public as it is for the 'base'?

It seems to me that the popular support Democrats have received since 2006 have been when they stood to change policies people didn't like.  And there's certainly good evidence from polls, etc., that a majority of Americans aren't just opposed to Republicans but to their actual policies.

Wouldn't emphasizing 'compromise' seem to offer the worst of both worlds?

I.e., if you elect me, I'll work to see that many of the policies you don't like continue, and I'll pledge that Democrats don't represent a big difference from what we already have?


Stupid, stupid, stupid (0.00 / 0)
For all of Bush's fault's, it would be petty to refuse to admit that he has had his strengths.  And one of the biggest was creating an image of resoluteness (sure, in the hard light of reality it becomes stubbornness, but that is a substantive criticism).

People LIKE politicians who stand up for their core convictions.  They LIKE resoluteness.  They LIKE principled leaders.

What they don't like is petty squabbling, gratuitous acrimony, or needless discord.

It is one thing to say that you will "work with" the opposition.  It is another thing to say that you will compromise.  I can't believe that Frank Luntz wouldn't whip any GOP pol for using the term "compromise".

Hillary is an anchor for the party.  It is only due to the well-intentioned refusal of most of the party base to throw mud at the front-runner, and the desire of most bloggers to maintain "access" to all campaigns, that the horror of a Clinton nomination isn't discussed more openly.


Have you forgotten GWB's 2000 campaign? (4.00 / 1)
uniter not a divider?
compassionate conservative?
In 2000 Bush spent a lot of time touting the compromises he achieved with Democrats in the Texas Legislature.

Clinton's examples of compromise are Social Security and the Voting Rights Act. No one would believe that she is not a partisan Democrat, she is saying polarizing Democrats like LBJ and FDR were able to achieve great things through principled compromises with Republicans.


[ Parent ]
Actually... (0.00 / 0)
there is a big difference between saying you are a uniter and saying that you are a compromiser.  Bush claimed to work with the Democrats in Texas to get HIS AGENDA passed.  Show me where he proudly waved the compromise banner.

And, I, for one, would say that Hillary isn't much of a partisan Democrat.  When she isn't spouting off with GOP-spin nonsense about how an attack on the U.S. would be a gain for the GOP, she's trying to blur the distinction between the parties.


[ Parent ]
Clinton/Lieberman 2008? (0.00 / 0)
What better way for her to compromise with Republicans than including one of their own on the ticket?

Compromising before you even begin an argument is not indicative of leadership.  This message is not aimed at Democrats - this is for independents and Republicans.  Clinton has begun to run the national campaign, the primaries are all but over (and they haven't even started yet!).  This is Clinton's play to the middle (which after more than a decade the nation moving to the Right, is truly a move to the Right).

Do I think it opens up an line for Obama, or Edwards? Yes, more for Obama than Edwards, however.  I'd go this way: Clinton claimed that Obama was "naive" for saying that he would meet with "hostile" foreign leaders without any real preconditions.  Is it not just as naive to compromise your positions before the arguments begin in earnest?  How effective can one be in any negotiation, if the first thing they say is that they are willing to compromise?  What kind of "preconditions", or "compromises" would Clinton make to these same foreign leaders before beginning her discussions?  Maybe leaving an issue, or two, off of the table when talking to Iran, or Syria about Iraq?  Or sending them some cash to deal with the refugee problem?  (no quid pro quo, of course, as Bush the First has established).



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


an unfortunate assumption about independents (0.00 / 0)
It is assumed that independents represent some bloc between left and right.

But there is a significant bloc of independents to the left, who decry all this shilly-shallying over Iraq and now Iran.  And they are pissed.

Moderate = 2
x ho-hum = 1
= 2

Left  = 1
x pissed = 3
= 3

pissed Left beats Moderate ho-hum!  That's my arithmetic.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Your math may be correct (0.00 / 0)
But the Pissed Off Lefties won't vote for the Republican in 2008, will they? 

They will either lodge a protest vote, stay home, or hold their nose and vote Democratic.  Now, that was a problem for Kerry in 2004, and he was not able to overcome the "get-out-the-vote" machine of the GOP.  However, I don't see the current GOP candidates having the same kind of help from the Republican base, although maybe the Fred-Heads will change that situation, but I doubt it.

So, Clinton (or any Democratic nominee) will be more able to move toward the center and gain the centrist independents, calculating that the Left wing of the Democratic party (and pissy independents)is less important than in 2004 - they can stay home, or vote their conscience, because the GOP religious conservatives will likely be sitting out the 2008 election.

Moreover, a good number of centrists have lost faith in the GOP, so it is much more fertile ground for the Democrats than in 2004.  Besides, they have to make too many campaign promises that they won't be able to keep if they play for the Left, while centrist independents may be easier to satisfy in the current climate - a good strategy for the re-election campaign.  Though it pains me to see and to say it, I think the Left has been pretty much dismantled as an effective political movement in the US.  That's one of the reasons I hang around this site, to try and gauge whether there actually IS a viable Left in the US, and it doesn't look good. I'm not saying its hopeless, but based on what I read here and what I hear from others, the Left can't even claim to direct the Democratic Party, let alone have a substantive role in running the nation.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
you miss my point (0.00 / 0)
The Left as an institution is pretty much dead.  RIP and all that.  I was talking about progressives in their millions.  Don't equate them.

But first please note that the dropoff in approval of Congress since January 2007 was a dropoff because the Dems didn't move strongly enough against the war, not because they were too radical.  This is ordinary folks that have just plain had enough, and their numbers are significant.

Secondly, I was challenging the notion that appealing to independents meant moving right.  They can be appealed to in many ways, depending on which independents you are responding to.  Now, you might argue that we should appeal to moderate independents rather than liberal independents.  That's an interesting debate.  But don't put all independents in the same bag.  This sets up a false "independents vs. Democratic base" competition that divides us when progressives need to be uniting most. 

The point of my arithmetic, in any event, is that intensity matters, in terms of money, volunteers, word-of-mouth, blogs, and turnout.  Whatever your calculations, a flat numbers game doesn't cut it.

Finally, as a progressive, I'd rather be organizing progressives rather than those who think they can spit in my eye and still count on my vote.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Wanting the US out of Iraq (0.00 / 0)
May be one of the reasons that the Congress has dropped the ball on ending the war, but I'm not convinced that all those folks that are disappointed in the Democratic congress are to left of the Democratic front-runners on any other issue.  Actually, now that I'm thinking about it - I'm not even certain that expecting the Democratic Congress to move more forcefully to end the war is a "leftist" position.

I see it this way: When Bush invaded Iraq, he did so with approximately 60-65% support from the citizens.  Now, if a good portion of those folks had turned around by 2006 and voted for Democrats to end the war, thus setting up their disappointment and disgust with the Congress, I'd contend that this suggests these folks are more in the center, than on the left.  My logic: the electorate easily slipped back-and-forth between support for the GOP President and the "anti-war" Democrats.  Now, it could be that these two issues (initial support for the invasion of Iraq and the 2006 "anti-war" vote) are measuring different parts of the US electorate.  It could be that the 60% support for the war was driven from the Right (GOP + RW Independents) and the 2006 election was driven from the Left (Dems + LW Independents). It could be that no one (except John Edwards) has changed their mind about the war, but I don't think that's true.  I know a number of folks (generally far less politically oriented than myself, or anyone else that posts here) that were part of the initial support for the invasion of Iraq that have most definitely changed their minds about the issue.  Oh, they still support IDEA of "making the world safe for democracy", but they see Iraq as a failed war and want out of the quagmire.  I don't think that makes them leftists, or progressives - but it certainly will help account for the piss-poor approval ratings of the Congress and the White House.

I'd also contend that the "independents vs. Democratic base" is not a false competition - its politics.  Rest assured, there is a complementary "independents vs. Republican base" competition.  The only way these competitions disappear is if the independents (right or left) join up with the main stream parties.  I'm assuming that folks are "independents" because they have one, or another, disagreement with the "core principles" of either party, which is the definition of competition.  Sure, its easier for Dems to play to left-leaning independents AND their base, just as its easier for Republicans to play to right-leaning independents AND their base.  But, if either party plays for the middle, they risk alienating their respective base-support.

Considering the comments by Clinton that were the initiator of this thread, I contend that her position is a play to the middle - not to the left, or the Democratic base. This is, whether one agrees with it or not, its a cold political calculation, in my opinion.  Not surprising that Clinton will assume that the left-wingers are either already on-board, or not necessary for her victory - now, or in 2012.

If intensity and commitment were all you crack them up to be - why hasn't Kucinich broken out? 

As for organizing progressives - isn't it mostly Democrats that are spitting in your eye?  How much longer will you take it? 



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
you miss my thrust (0.00 / 0)
and mix apples and oranges.

My main point is that there are independents to the right and left of the Democratic Party center.  Obviously Clinton is going after the right side of that.

Kucinich hasn't run a very good campaign.  At what point do I crack "intensity and commitment" up to be a magic wand?  I merely state that numbers alone aren't the sole measure of political force.

Your last paragraph is totally incomprehensible unless you are urging me to build a 3rd party.  I'm not.  I'm trying to move the Democratic Party to the left.  Strategy aside, I'm a simple soul who fights for what he believes in.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
I think I got your point (0.00 / 0)
about independents being spread throughout the political spectrum.  But I still don't see how any candidate can reasonably make an appeal to independents on both the right and left, OTHER than on a single issue like the war in Iraq.

If your point is that the Democratic nominee should be working to garner more support from left-wing independents, then so be it.  But the bulk of the Democratic front-runners don't appear to agree with that strategy - they will take the "left" for granted and hope that the "fear" of a Republican in the White House will keep the lefties in line.  Even with Nader siphoning off a few votes in 2004, Kerry still managed to get the second most votes for US President in history (GWB is first).  So, the strategy of ignoring the left worked in 2004, is just that the GOP was able to mobilize the fundamentalists to get out and vote. 

In 2008, I don't see the Republican fundamentalists bothering to put down their bibles, get off the couch, and voting for any potential nominee from the GOP.  So, the "ignore the left" strategy is back in play.

Sorry I over-interpreted your comments about passion and commitment. I agree about Kucinich, he's rather ineffective on the campaign trail.  Truth be told, none of the Democratic nominees are very exciting to me.

You are right, my last paragraph is about forming an alternative party.  I'll come clean - I'm not a member of any political party, but I'm the furthest away from the Republicans - except on the issues of states (and local rights), and small central governments.  Yet, I've seen enough to understand that an alternative party is a joke until we retool the entire system to accommodate multiple parties.  (OK, not quite a "joke", but not certainly not a viable, long-term, alternative).  I see our bloated two-party system as an over-grown forest that needs to be cleared before a "better" system can sprout. 

I understand and appreciate the "small soul" issue.  I've simply chosen a different strategy.  The way I see it, the USA has out-grown the two party system and the electoral college.  I think that the energy, passion, and commitment of folks like yourself should be more nurtured by our system.  If you want to organize progressives, then that's what our political system should support - rather than forcing you to first transform one of the MSPs, THEN reform the nation/state/city. A first step in that direction is Instant Run-off Voting. The fastest way to legitimize and empower alternative parties, in my opinion.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
yes, that is my point (0.00 / 0)
"If your point is that the Democratic nominee should be working to garner more support from left-wing independents, then so be it.  But the bulk of the Democratic front-runners don't appear to agree with that strategy - they will take the "left" for granted and hope that the "fear" of a Republican in the White House will keep the lefties in line."

Yes, that is my point.  No, they don't agree.  That is why I am criticizing them.

If there is to be a 3rd party, It will be the result of a massive change in voter sentiment and anger that the Democratic Party cannot accommodate.  If we had the power to change the structure first, then we would have the power to do anything.  Unfortunately, structural arguments do not and will not arouse broad passion in and of themselves.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
You said it: (0.00 / 0)
"Unfortunately, structural arguments do not and will not arouse broad passion in and of themselves."

I suspect that's why half of the eligible voters don't see any reason to bother with elections, campaigns, or voting booths.

They see no value in the current system and no foul when they choose not to participate.

Good talking to you - thanks for your respect and patience.

 

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
My theory (4.00 / 1)
Hillary is trying to explain to the American people that a President has to work within the system to effect change and that she is IN the system and knows it well.  That is the underlying reason for her so-called new rhetoric.  But it really is not new.  Hillary is simply emphasizing now what has always been true about her.  As a Senator she compromises.  She works across the aisle effectively and has been praised for doing so by both sides. 

Hillary also stated in her speech that anyone who promises to just make change happen by ignoring the system is being naive.  And she is right.  John Edwards has been bashing Washington and the Senate and Congress for months.  And yet, as Hillary states in her NH speech, you can't pretend these bodies don't exist.  They exist constitutionally.  An effective President has to know the lay of this land and work within it to really effect change and that means knowing when to compromise without sacrificing principle.

I suggest that Chris Bowers read the entire speech.  I think it is one of the strongest she has presented yet.  She is really calling Edwards and Obama's bluff here and trying to paint them as unrealistic.  That can't hurt her, in my view.


enlighten me (4.00 / 2)
Where are the Beltway foreign policy establishment and the punditocracy mentioned in the Constitution?  Where is the military-industrial establishment mentioned in the Constitution?

And in what statements have Obama and Edwards declared that the Senate and Congress (I assume you mean the House of Representatives) do NOT exist?

I guess I must have missed those parts.

Hillary isn't just IN the system.  She IS the system.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Isn't petitioning in the Constitution? (0.00 / 0)
If I recall correctly, Hillary defending lobbyists by using the constitution where it guarantees petitioning.  If I remember Civics 101 correctly, it means that citizens have the right to petition the government for action on their grievances. 

It's the reason she said working within the Constitutional system.  It includes all of the lobbying.  Look, Hillary is quite comfortable with the WDC system as it exists today.  She can work in it and believes she can effect change within it--and it includes lobbyists.  I see no reason for any of us to mince and twist her words.

I don't agree with Hillary.  Petitioning is one thing; bringing with the petition wagons of cash is something else--corruption.


[ Parent ]
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