Obama The Conservative

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Feb 07, 2009 at 16:40


In a very astute comment to my diary, "Stimulating Opposition", MadScientist wrote:

    Obama's values

    I think Obama is truly a conservative. Not conservative in the pejorative, Republican, class-warfare sense. Conservative in the sense of thinking that making changes slowly and methodically is a virtue. Conservative in the sense of thinking that respectfully acknowledging and listening to all sides in a debate, and trying to strike a balance, is a good thing. Conservative in the sense of avoiding rancor and heated argument.

    Those are all important values, and in many scenarios I tend to agree that following those values is the right thing to do.

    But in the present case, that style of conservatism doesn't apply.

    On one side, the economic crisis we face is so frightening that, as Krugman has argued,

    Quite literally, the usual rules no longer apply.

In the comment thread, I responded with a combination of basic agreement, qualified by some more minor disagreement.  But I think the point of agreement is far more fundamental.  For one thing, it relates to an argument I first advanced right after the 2006 mid-terms, which I republished in a diary here last May, A Golden Oldie From 2006: Liberalism is the "True Conservatism".  The basic upshot of combining MadScientist's comment with my earlier diary is that I don't see Obama's conservatism as necessarily problematic.  But I do see recognizing his conservatism as key to understanding what is problematic: the specifics of how his conservatism fails to comport with the moment, just as MadScientist claimed.

This diary should also serve as a counterpoint to another diary one I'm working on, a response to an article at The Democratic Strategist, "Obama the Sociologist".

Background from my earlier diary kicks off on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama The Conservative
In my earlier diary, I wrote, near the bewginning, concerning the conservative desiderata of social stability:

Throughout this period [the last 500 years]--and one can go back even further, to the Italian Renaissance--conservatives have attacked liberals for undermining the established social order.  Liberals, of course, have not seen things that way--with rare, but important exceptions, such as overthrowing the established social order of British colonial rule over the American colonies, or overthrowing the established social order of slavery.  

Generally, however, liberals have cared less about the social order, and more about people themselves; and for this reason they have not generally engaged in directly countering the conservative critique.  This is quite understandable, really.  For conservatives, the social order is much more real than individual people are. For liberals, the reverse is true.  And both sides naturally express themselves in terms of what is most real to them.  

Yet, in doing so, liberals have made a significant mistake, for the liberal philosophy is actually far superior to conservative alternatives when it comes to a number of key conservative ideals.  For example, liberalism is superior in preserving social order and harmony in a dynamically changing, and diverse world--a world in which traditional structures commonly fail, causing widespread chaos and strife. Liberalism is not the cause of such change--as conservatives commonly allege--but rather its facilitator, providing means of managing change so intense that it would otherwise tear societies apart.  A prime example is the idea of a modern secular state has proven fundamentally important in putting an end to religious wars, which otherwise threaten perpetual strife.

And a good deal farther down, I concluded:

If the conservative answers have repeatedly been wrong for America, the conservative questions have not--at least some of them. The question of how to preserve social order is a valid and important one, even if the question of how you keep blacks, women, immigrants, gays, Jews, etc. in their place is not. And it is in this sense--where conservatives have been most correct--that liberalism has shown itself to be far superior in answering the questions:
  • You preserve social order by including the so-called "undesirables." You grant them the dignity they deserve, simply by being human, and they proceed to act with dignity. It's as simple as that. (You think gays are hedonistic narcissists utterly destructive to social order? Then recognize their right to marry. And stop treating them like second-class citizens.)
  • You preserve religion's place as a polestar in people's lives, precisely by keeping it separate from the vagaries of politics, in which change is the only constant, and compromise a guiding principle. You render unto God that which is God, and unto Cesaer that which is Cesaer's.
  • You preserve the integrity of local communities and their institutions by engaging the power of state and national government to deal with problems that are too large for them to handle, that would twist and distort--if not utterly break them, if they were left to stand alone.
  • You maintain historical continuity, and respect for the nation's traditions by rethinking both in the light of new experience, and the experience of new Americans. Self-reinvention is our most hallowed tradition.
  • You command respect for authority by exercising authority with respect for the people, who are the only legitimate source of authority.
  • You preserve the highest levels of personal  morality first by granting people the freedom to discover its logic for themselves, and embrace it as their own freely chosen commitment, and second by insisting on the public morality of a just and equitable social order.

In short, you deliver the most legitimate desiderata of conservatism by embracing the practices, policies and ideals of liberalism.

Liberals are the true conservatives. And this fact--fully and consciously assimilated by liberals themselves--is perhaps the surest foundation on which a new and lasting governing liberal majority can be built in America today.

From all the above, it should be obvious that I don't see anything inherently wrong with conservatism in this one key sense.  And thus, to the extent that this describes Obama, I don't object to it on principle at all.  But now let's turn to how I responded to MadScientist's commnet:

    I Mostly Agree, But...

    I've made similar arguments in the past about conservatism as gradual change.

    Movement conservatives will have none of this, as they're reactionaries in the style of de Maistre, rather than conservatives in the style of Burke. But it is much more in line with traditional Anglo-American conservatism than what flies under the "conservative" banner today.

    However, this:

    Conservative in the sense of thinking that respectfully acknowledging and listening to all sides in a debate, and trying to strike a balance, is a good thing.

    Was never really part of the Burkean conservative package.  All sides do not get a hearing.  Only the respectable sides (i.e. those with real institutional muscle) do.  And this reflects Obama's modus operandi rather well, I think.

    Conservative in the sense of avoiding rancor and heated argument.

    Precisely.  As I argued back in 2006, less Martin Luther King, more Rodney King.

    If somebody insists that the reason for increased leukemia rates is the schools rather than the persistent leaks from the nearby chemical plant, compromising by reducing the output from the chemical plant and closing half the schools will only add extra problems.

    Except that the "bipartisan" approach is more aptly described as closing half the schools and relocating them inside the chemical plant.

In short, there are times in which conflict is inevitable, and if you deny conflict, you deny change--change which is going to happen any way, one way or another, and perhaps much more disastrously than if you agreed to embrace conflict in a mediated arena--as per the example of Martin Luther King's strategy of creative non-violence (as explained so powerfully in his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail".  My problem, thus, is not with what Obama wants to do, but with his misreading of the historical moment, and what it necessarily calls for.

I believe that the message of Mike's book is highly relevant here: we have a moment in which major change is not just needed, but possible. However, it cannot be gained without embracing conflict, and encouraging those very "disruptive forces" that are the very engines of change.  The sort of conflict that Martin Luther King described and advanced was very different than the conflict generated by movement conservatives over the past 40 years, so what I am arguing for is not the continuation of business as usual.  It is, rather, a different path of change than the one that Obama is seeking to take.  The reason, quite simply, is that the path Obama is seeking to take has already been tried--most notably by Clinton in 1993-1994--and utterly thwarted by the Republicans.  It's a very appealing path, but it's a path that, in present circumstances, leads nowhere but to disillusion and defeat.

That is why we need to go a different way.


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Absolutely, Paul. (4.00 / 1)
We are going so far in the wrong direction that Ben Nelson-style caution is a true threat.

We need to REVERSE course! Not fine tune an existing course.

Once even the truly disconnected get the point that things have really and truly changed, we can start on fine tuning that change.

What is The Change We Need(tm)?

It is realizing that we cannot consume our way to sustainable and good society.

It is realizing that hypertrophy of the id is a dangerous thing, not something to be celebrated.

Translated into policy? Don't try to reinflate the bubble,

Instead sell people on a much lower standard of living by showing them that all classes will face retrenchment (ESPECIALLY THE RICH!) and by propagandizing the gains in bodily, economic, and spiritual health that come from abandoning over-consumption.

That really is The Change We Need(tm) and of course we will do nothing of the kind.


As An Old Bohemian (4.00 / 2)
I'm philosophically quite in tune with this.  But I just don't see the working poor, for example, agreeing with it very easily.

I think that a generation-long shift could get us where we need to be without politically unmanageable pain.  But I simply don't think that going off consumerism cold turkey is at all viable.  What may be viable is adopting a differently-directed recovery path, one that depends on a lot of long-term investment in sustainability.  But right now, we can't even keep our schools open, thanks to Collins, Snowe and Nelson.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bravo! (4.00 / 2)
This inconsistency in the left's vision isn't taken seriously enough in our discussions, I think, especially those between labor and environmental interests. Even forty years ago, it unnecessarily complicated our attempts make headway among the Reagan Democrats. It reminds me of our often insufferable lectures to the Chinese about burning coal, or to third-world subsistence farmers about chopping down their forests.

We need a clear path to a sustainable future which has benefits in it for everyone. I think helping define one is a big part of our job at this point. For that reason, I'm really, really glad to see your comment here.


[ Parent ]
I should have said (0.00 / 0)
those about to become Reagan Democrats. (Although they weren't called that then, they were already a major political force, and their support for the Viet Nam war wasn't the only issue which divided them from us.)

[ Parent ]
Obama the Reagan Democrat! (4.00 / 1)
Remember this?

I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

And what could be more dynamic and entrepreneurial than a "stimulus" full of tax-cuts and a bailout which will not require banks to increase lending?

It's morning in America!




[ Parent ]
Pitchforks and torches only if we DON'T succeed (4.00 / 1)
I hate to resurrect the old canard about Roosevelt saving capitalism from itself, but giving history its due, as Santayana observed, can often save us a lot of trouble in the present. Civilization is fragile -- another oldie but goodie -- and people who take their axes to its foundations, as the Republicans seem to absolutely delight in doing, risk having the whole grand edifice, from the rule of law to the marble tombs of their ancestors, collapse on top of them.

I'm one of those liberal conservatives who wouldn't wish that fate on anybody, but I'm also enough of a cynic, and enough of a friend to the people to wonder, as Jefferson did, whether right-wing intransigence, and the smugness of our friends in Washington wouldn't be justly served by something far more drastic than any of us who worry about the women and children could recommend.


Thanks for the boost (4.00 / 3)
Other than some differences of perspective, we're basically in agreement. So I'll restrict my comment to a different perspective on this:
The reason, quite simply, is that the path Obama is seeking to take has already been tried--most notably by Clinton in 1993-1994--and utterly thwarted by the Republicans.
That's the political side of relevant history.

I look at Japan's experience in the 90s as the part of history Obama seems to be failing to read. The parallels seem pretty clear: Japan had a basically well-founded technological boom that morphed into a real-estate bubble and eventually popped. They tried to address it without restructuring the de facto insolvent banks and by compromising on the amount of spending to throw at the problem. The government intervention managed to keep the country from completely falling apart, but it was eventually a global boom (assisted by finally restructuring the banks) that ended their recession more than a decade later. Obama seems to think that a Japan-style response is good enough.


Excellent Point! (4.00 / 2)
Japan was also reluctant to spend enough fast enough.  Failing to spend big and spend early resulted in lots of spending--much of it quite wasteful--over a much longer period of time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Obama neither comes from old money nor connections early on with financial ongoing discussions (4.00 / 1)
so he really is not at home in this world.

My mother for instance is an example. Her father was taken out of school (I am 75) in eighth grade by his commodity trading father, and put on Wall Street and told to pick which aspect he wanted to learn. My grandfather Frankie Ballard went into the bond market. He had extremely wealthy clients who used to give my grandmother Tiffany lamps for Christmas. He had clients that went down on the Titanic. He described the day of the crash on Wall Street at home. People jumping out of windows and all. My grandfather talked finance over the dinner table (the way my father talked about his company and World War II) so my mother was exposed from an early age to financial discussions that were ongoing. My great grandfather died somewhere in the early 1900's and left 250 K, a fantastic sum at that time, which my grandfather didn't get any of as his mother was dead and his father had remarried. I know these stories as my mother told them many times and much more intricately than this.

But what I am trying to say is that my mother, uneducated tho she was, had a keen sense of the stock market and constantly read that part of the newspaper, and kept telling my father what was good for him to invest in. He never listened to even one of her suggestions. And she kept all the stock she had bought just after the 29 crash. When my father retired she sold it to give him capital to start an import business with Japan and for the first time in his life he made big money.

People who grow up like my mother have it in the pores of their skin. As did FDR and JFK, neither of whom ever had any money of their own (FDR's mother controlled all of it as did JFK's father)but they knew a lot about it. LBJ knew how to use wealth and power to climb up the ladder to the top. He was never middle class or conservative.

We have a psychological problem with Obama and we have to think about his resistance and how to work with it successfully. I am thinking about it.


[ Parent ]
Prep school (0.00 / 0)
Obama may not have absorbed it at the dinner table but he went to a fancy prep school, Columbia and Harvard Law.  Above all, the prep school was where he might have absorbed things.

[ Parent ]
Obama as a Sociologist (4.00 / 1)
". . . a particular blind spot in the perspective of most American political commentators. . . . [w]hen significant social reforms threaten to directly affect major social institutions, enacting such reforms requires . . .[t]he opposition of . . . the armed forces, big business or the church - must be neutralized or at least very significantly muted. . . . Sociologically and demographically speaking these groups . . . are often predominantly working class, red state voters."

This is basically little more than the swing voter view (where the swing voters are always like, white male Oklahomans) of American politics dressed up in sociological claptrap.

And, like, really, nobody EVER talks about business or religious right opposition to social reform.

Well, I'm looking forward to reading your take on it.


Forget Obama the Sociologist (4.00 / 2)
Let's go Lincoln 1860

Lincoln's Cooper Union speech was incendiary and divisive.  Douglas was the uniter, the compromiser . . . of his time. . . .

Lincoln shoots right across the bow of the South.  What was he trying to do - obviously, flip the extremist label - place it on the South, take it off the Republicans.

Win the Center.  Douglas advocated something different. . . .

Something to consider when we are urged to reach out to "values" voters, compromise on Iraq, etc.

My answer - Lincoln is my guide.

Obama (like Clinton before him) has tried the Douglas strategy and is failing. Let's try Lincoln instead.


[ Parent ]
Obama the Academic (4.00 / 4)
and Obama the People Pleaser.

I believe that Obama is a very confused man right now and that he is compelled to try to please everyone.  I believe that he has only operated in an academic (hence the lack of a sense of urgency) or governmental or quasi-governmental world and until now, was not required to engage in conflict in order to get things done in a life or death type situation.  

I don't think he's spent enough time in the real world.  I'm afraid he doesn't understand the mindset of the modern Republican party, the neocons, and their ilk.  His economic advisors are also academics.  This is not meant to insult academia.  It is meant to highlight the fact that they rarely have to make things work in a real world system.

What needs to happen is for people to rise up and start protesting this abomination of a Senate bill.  The Senate bill needs to be shut down, now.  It is a complete disaster.  Pres. Obama needs to tell the House to take their original bill and break it up into components and roll them out ASAP and send them to the Senate.  Make the component packages coherent, and thwart the Republican nitpicking.  Let their tax cuts be one of those component packages and let them defend it instead of cutting out productive spending to make room for their tax cuts.

Obama and the Democrats in Congress need to be out in the media day and night explaining and promoting the packages.  And they need to tell it like it is about the Republicans.  Bush, Republicans, and their way of doing things was rejected in the last election.  People are fed up with their way of governing.

In the meantime, I think it would be a good idea for Pres. Obama to take a fresh look at FDR, Lincoln and MLK.  


South Side of Chicago (4.00 / 4)
Having worked myself in community organizing on the south side of Chicago (about the same time Obama did in fact) I would have to disagree that a person who did that full time for a number of years has never "worked in the real world".  

However, one thing that doesn't get talked about in relation to that work - not by any analyst or Obama himself AFAIK - is that essentially no community organizer has ever succeeded in making any significant change to Chicago politics.  Certainly not on the south side.  Eventually anyone who wants to get anything done knuckles under and compromises with the major political power (King Richard II in this case).  And eventually is co-opted by it (Daley is extremely good at this co-opting, or was until around 2000 when he got so arrogant he stopped caring).

I fear that that is the lesson Obama is heeding right now.

sPh


[ Parent ]
A PR benefit of your approach (4.00 / 3)
is that the American people will be regularly reminded that the government is taking measures to fix our problems and make their lot better.  

[ Parent ]
Yep. Well said (4.00 / 1)
This is a selling job.

[ Parent ]
Right! Here's FDR (4.00 / 4)
What Obama Needs To Learn

. . .the lessons of FDR, and my new favorite speech, FDR's 1932 address at Oglethorpe University:

Here again, in the field of industry and business many of those whose primary solicitude is confined to the welfare of what they call capital have failed to read the lessons of the past few years and have been moved less by calm analysis of the needs of the Nation as a whole than by a blind determination to preserve their own special stakes in the economic order. . . .

Do what we may have to do to inject life into our ailing economic order, we cannot make it endure for long unless we can bring about a wiser, more equitable distribution of the national income.

. . . It is toward that objective that we must move if we are to profit by our recent experiences. Probably few will disagree that the goal is desirable. Yet many, of faint heart, fearful of change, sitting tightly on the roof-tops in the flood, will sternly resist striking out for it . . .



[ Parent ]
I Share Your Outrage, But... You Have A Naive View of Academia (4.00 / 9)
(1) Unfortunately, I think Obama seems pleased as punch with the Senate abomination, so the problem runs deeper than you think.

(2) Those who think of academia as some sort of benign, non-competitive idyll have another think coming.  The novels of David Lodge provide some hint of what it's really like.

Still, it's true that competition qua competition is not the essence of academe.  But it's also true that Obama was a community organizer.

Yet, despite all these quibbles, I do think you have a point.  Obama's managed to avoid a lot of the hardest part of politics.  And that's been his special skill.  Now, however, that skill emerges a potentially huge liability.  Those who are best at avoiding conflict are most often those who don't fear it, but rather excel at it.

What's key is that he hasn't gone head-to-head with the truly nutso brand of conservatism that dominates DC.  Now, he can't avoid it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What is the measure of success (0.00 / 0)
in academia?  And how objective is it?

[ Parent ]
Well, That's Just It (0.00 / 0)
There are many measures.  So many different ways to compete... or opt out.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
How many asses have you kissed (0.00 / 0)
Exhibit A: Condoleeza Rice.

[ Parent ]
Administrative success isn't the same as academic/intellectual success (0.00 / 0)
Condoleeza Rice had an utterly undistinguished academic career.  Plenty of people of her ideological ilk have been successful, but she wasn't one of them.  What she did succeed at was being a mid- to upper-level bureaucrat.

[ Parent ]
We are at the edge of paradigm change as Kuhn has so carefully defined it (4.00 / 1)
This is not change as usual. This is abrupt and painful and it is going to hurt. It is going to happen whether Obama is on board or not. As Leo Steinberg used to say, "It is a watershed moment in painting." But it can be applied to our social order also. It is here and it is now. and I do think Obama is too petit bourgeois to recognize it. After all he has spent his life as a Marginal Man trying to meld both sides of his heritage. It is ingrained in him now. He is not a JFK or FDR and not even an LBJ. We have a very decent person in the White House, with a great deal of integrity and idealism. And as the French so often say, Idealism becomes cynicism in later years. None of us want to see this happen to him.

We are going to go in a different way whether we like it or not. Krugman is correct, people listen to him, but so far he has only the power of the pen. And that may be enough. I don't wish to see his acumen dulled by listening to blowhards in staff meeting after staff meeting.

The only thing we can do is to tear the veils from our eyes. I know most of us know this, but do we believe it? Have we reoriented our lifestyles to incorporate the new wave that is coming? I am desperately trying, and almost was there, but got punked by one of those competitive bottom line people who had no vision. Now I must rescale.


I'm not convinced (4.00 / 1)
My fear is that we will not have a paradign change.  We will get some half-baked stimulus package, the banks will get another bailout, the Iraq war will continue and the American people will become increasingly more disenchanted.  If we fail now, where is there to go?  Riots in the streets is the only solution I see and I am not convinced it would really be effective.

[ Parent ]
Well then the riots will precede the paradigm change (4.00 / 1)
and it will be far worse than it has to be. But it will happen. I agree with you on this.

[ Parent ]
Well, This Is CERTAINLY What's Called For (4.00 / 4)
And I tend to agree with your take on Obama.  He's not suited to paradigm-shifting, which is why he mistakes Reagan for a pivotal figure--he sees the surfaces of such things much more clearly than the core.

Yet, jar137 is right--just because a paradigm shift is called for doesn't mean it will come.  We can get stuck in transition between gears, and end up going nowhere.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul I think things are going to get so bad (4.00 / 2)
that there will not be a possibility to just stay stuck. Martial law maybe.

[ Parent ]
I Don't Doubt Things Can Get Really Bad (4.00 / 1)
And it's my hope that folks will start reacting much more strongly.  But even so, that doesn't mean anything coherent will jell.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
At this point I think that martial law might be somewhat less of a paradigm shift than a New New Deal (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
His recent actions prove he is not conservative in temperment (4.00 / 1)
He is conservative in action and has hired no liberals to any important influential positions.  And yes modern conservatism is actually reactionary so he is creating a welfare program for bankers and forgetting about the nation.  

Just want to say, the entire diary and threads are fascinating n/t (0.00 / 0)


Obama would agree with MadScientist (0.00 / 0)
This is what he said in 2007:

You know, I'm not an ideologue. Never have been. Even during my
younger days when I was tempted by sort of more radical or left-wing
politics, there was a part of me that always was a little bit
conservative in that sense, that believes that you make progress by
sitting down, listening to people, recognizing everybody's concerns,
seeing other people's points of views, and them making decisions.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/swee...


Well, I Believe That, Too (4.00 / 2)
The question is: "Who do you sit down with? Who's concerns do you recognize? Princes? Or paupers?"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yes, Jefferson said that the divide always is between (0.00 / 0)
aristocrats and democrats.  Do you love and respect the people or do you use them to further your aims? Are you a Hamiltonian ultimately or a Jeffersonian? Jefferson called back Tom Paine from Europe to help him sell his ideas.  Paine was a radical.  Where are the radicals at the table?  

[ Parent ]
I think that is a misreading of the moment (0.00 / 0)
Republicans are simply broken.  Their big victory is that a few moderates managed a few changes to an 800 billion dollar stimulus bill.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

This Is NOT A Few Changes (4.00 / 2)
Read my new diary.  Krugman says the changes will cost us 600,000 jobs over the next 2 years.  They've crippled our chances of recovery.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
More like Truman (0.00 / 0)
If Obama only followed your advice and was more like Truman, he could get congress to make the Taft-Hartley act even worse and then start a war in Asia. Obviously, 3 weeks into it, Obama can never propose more legislation - this is his last shot. And just as obviously, Paul Krugman is the greatest political strategist in America history.

Why won't the Democrats listen to people like Paul who answer the phone when History Calls?


[ Parent ]
I am sick of this already, Dems win& still cave (4.00 / 1)
I did not vote for a republican administration, yet that seems what we have got.

I need Obama to fight, and I don't like what I see. If this Senate version is allowed to stand, then we are going into another great Depression, which Obama could have stopped.

All of you a$$holes who told me Hillary sucked, then pushed, pushed, pushed Obama will save us..., well, thanks a fu#k*&g lot...

I think it is already time for the pitchforks, because Obama wants to protect the status quo and the wall street bankers for what???


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