The Great Derangement: A Late-Night Thank You to Our (Vaguely Frightening) Hate Stalkers

by: David Sirota

Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 00:45


I've recently become aware that I have a few blog stalkers - ie. people who spend inordinate amounts of time blogging about how much they hate my writing (see here, here, here, here and here for just a few recent examples). Evidently, these people have oodles of time on their hands (and personally, I think the funniest of them are those who still insist Hillary Clinton never supported NAFTA, despite Clinton's own repeated public speeches promoting NAFTA). But I just want to give them a shout out - I sincerely love them all, both because they are providing a few extra links to OpenLeft, and because at a level far deeper than meta-narrative navel gazing, they reflect the broader societal anger that I think could make this the transformative historical moment we all want it to be.

Hear me out on this latter point in the extended entry.

David Sirota :: The Great Derangement: A Late-Night Thank You to Our (Vaguely Frightening) Hate Stalkers
On the link score - hey, the more traffic, the better. It's kinda like that exchange from the movie "Private Parts" about Howard Stern. After the station manager says "the average Howard Stern fan listens for an hour and 10 minutes" he then indignantly recounts that "the average Stern hater listens for 2 and a half hours a day." I don't aim to be Howard Stern, but the principle from that exchange is right-on. We'll take the traffic from the stalkers - traffic is traffic, after all, and readers are readers (and check it out - OpenLeft's traffic has been awesome of late).

But beyond just the self-interest of having blog stalkers inadvertently help us with traffic, I want to reiterate that I think the frenzied rage that's out there - whether directed at me, OpenLeft, or at any other progressive institution - is to be expected in times like this.

The country is coming apart, we're handing over $8 or $9 trillion to Wall Street, the government - as I and many others repeatedly warned - is being stacked with those who engineered this crisis, and people are violently angry. And so some of the angriest are desperate for scapegoats and conspiracy theories to help them make sense of it all. My good buddy Matt Taibbi documented this pretty well in his last book - the fringe left (from the LaRouchies to the "everyone is awful" Naderites to the Obama-hating Clintonites) and the fringe right (from the anti-immigrant lunatics to the militia sympathizers to the libertarian ideologues) find common cause in turning their righteous frustration at the Establishment into chest-thumping anger at phantom demons that seem more easy to slay than the massive institutions and powers that have destroyed the country.

And so if I or OpenLeft or any other good progressive institution/voice serves as one of those proxies that seems more easy and fun and tangible to scapegoat than giant concepts like The Government or The Establishment or The System or towering cultural icons like Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton or George W. Bush, then, at a certain level, that's really OK with me. And I don't say that in any kind of martyr-like, please-fee-bad-for-me kind of way - I mean it sincerely.

If, for instance, the fringe left needs to blame me for Hillary Clinton losing to Barack Obama; or Hillary Clinton stupidly campaigning for NAFTA and the Iraq War; or Ralph Nader not being able to mount a real presidential campaign in a money-dominated system; or Barack Obama not fulfilling his campaign promises; that's fine by me. I can take it, even if I don't agree with it, even if I can acknowledge (like most rational human beings) that such a line of thinking is crazy, insane and absurd.

I can take it because it is entirely predictable in what Taibbi calls "The Great Derangement" - that is, in a country whose political system has made people feel so desperately powerless that they need delusional theories to make them feel they have some shred of control over the nation's destiny. If me serving as a punching bag helps make people feel they have some shred of control or vested interest in political engagement, then that's ultimately a good thing. Indeed, in Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky says that anyone truly committed to organizing and activism and political empowerment needs - at times - to be willing to serve as such a punching bag for precisely this reason.

The anger that's welling up across the country is real and it needs to be channeled somewhere, and if some of it is being channeled here at us, that's ultimately a positive. Why? Because for every one of the stalkers who has gone completely off the deep end - for every sociopath who spends oodles of time writing whacked-out Unabomber-like manifestos blaming me, or another individual writer, or a blog or or the progressive movement for the end of civilization in a country where individual progressive writers and blogs and movements are still incredibly outgunned by the monied Establishment - my guess is that there are 10 people just as angry but far more sane who can be brought into the fold to channel their anger into the kinds of constructive causes and movements that I have devoted my career to, that this community at OpenLeft is all about and that will ultimately bring lasting change to America.

UPDATE: Within moments of this diary posting, one of my most devout stalkers requested that I link to an extra one of his/her stalker posts. The timing, of course, reiterates the stalky-ness of it all. But in the interest of obliging, here's that link calling me a blind Obama loyalist. I'm guessing you'll find it pretty funny, if you've read any of my work.


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If you're gonna plagiarize me (4.00 / 1)
at least mention The Confluence in your whine list

It's linked (4.00 / 1)
The Confluence is linked in there - and thanks again for your links back to this site. It's helpful!

[ Parent ]
Thanks - I'll add (4.00 / 13)
And I must say, your comments posting within seconds of this post actually going up helps reiterate the authentic stalky-ness of the situation. So thanks for helping make the case - and again, for the links.

[ Parent ]
PUMAs really exist? (0.00 / 0)
i thought they were like unicorns or balanced budgets, either imaginary or extremely rare.

oh, but im sure that clinton wouldnt have helped engineer a reverse bank robbery of taxpayers and im sure should would have stood up for the palestinians.  theres a huge difference between the two.


[ Parent ]
PUMAs (4.00 / 1)
were a failed ratfuck. A Republican attempt to prey on disappointed and unhappy Democrats and peel them off. Luckily there were not very many, as the election proved.

The best part was that McCain may have chosen Palin at least partially for the phantom PUMA vote, unaware that his operatives had secured very few real recruits. Hoist by his own ratfuckers.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
PUMAs really exist? (0.00 / 0)
i thought they were like unicorns or balanced budgets, either imaginary or extremely rare.

oh, but im sure that clinton wouldnt have helped engineer a reverse bank robbery of taxpayers and im sure should would have stood up for the palestinians.  theres a huge difference between the two.


[ Parent ]
For once I can agree with myiq... (4.00 / 1)
The Confluence definitely belongs on a whine list.

[ Parent ]
I used to read Taibbi in the 1990s (4.00 / 3)
when he was in Russia. Don't always agree with him, but what a talented writer.  

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

His cynicism would be impossible to take (4.00 / 2)
if he wasn't also very funny and entertaining, and on some level also idealistic (which the best cynics deep down are). Btw, do you know if he's Mike Taibbi's son?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
I think he is (4.00 / 2)
but Sirota would know for sure.

He used to write some incredible feature stories for the alternative English-language newspaper in Moscow.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
He is (4.00 / 1)
Yes, he is Mike's son.

[ Parent ]
nothing wrong with an internet flame war (4.00 / 5)
But I hope it's not going to be too regular a feature.  

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

I have very little experience with this problem (4.00 / 7)
Since I started blogging at Bleeding Heartland, I have only had to deal with one apparently deranged person who seemed to blame me for events he resented.

I admit that I was concerned enough to speak with a mental health professional about some of the blog comments, especially after the person made clear that he knew my real name and home address. I did hold back on writing a couple of posts I thought would set this person off.

Your take on this phenomenon is interesting, but I would prefer not to be at the center of anyone's conspiracy theory.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


True (4.00 / 3)
Look, I'll admit here in the comments section that it feels a bit weird to be at the center of someone's conspiracy theory. And, without going into details, I can sympathize with you about what it feels like to feel personally targeted - I've had to deal with threatening anonymous middle-of-the-night phone calls, stalkers trying to track me down at my home, etc.

But the reason I wrote this diary is not to express those feelings, because those feelings come with the territory. When you decide to do this work, that comes with the territory, and those feelings are between, well, the individual and his/her own emotions. We all cope with them in different ways (for me, it's hiking with my dog, playing Halo and hanging out with my wife).

The point in examining this on the front page is to look at the broader societal trends going on - and what they really mean for this community and all of our work. The anger, as I said, is real - and our charge now is to try to channel it as best as we can into something constructive. Our success or failure in that will have a huge impact on whether this is a moment of change or not.

Keep up your good work - and know that you are not alone, and that the personal challenges you have faced are indeed difficult, but also a sign that you're work is having an impact.


[ Parent ]
Wow, that's creepy (4.00 / 3)
And if they knew your personal info then that sounds like something for law enforcement.

I get my own share of haters on DKos (and on occasion on Digby and Greenwald and even here), but that's just because I have a very low tolerance level for idiots and liars and shills and trolls and let them know it fairly often. Plus I tend to be more aggressive in debates than I probably should. But nothing remotely approaching being worried personally.

Well, except for Paul deciding to have some fun at my expense last night. That was truly frightening and I've alerted the authorities. ;-)

Stay safe.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Ya (4.00 / 2)
Ya, it's been scary at times, no doubt. But I've tried to take precautions that protect myself and my family. But yeah, this line of work is not for the faint of heart.

[ Parent ]
If they want to mess with you... (4.00 / 1)
...they come with us first. No one screws with The Sirota.

Seriously, stay safe.


[ Parent ]
I saved the comments and communications (4.00 / 2)
in case things escalated, but nothing rose to the level of getting law enforcement involved. This person was not threatening me or physically stalking me, just trying to intimidate. Since November he seems to have moved on.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
To indicate online ethat you know someone's real name and address (0.00 / 0)
or actually publish them when they're not, and not supposed to be, publically known, is, in my opinion, a threatening action, because it violates one of the unwritten rules of blogging.

It was, of course, entirely your decision how to handle this situation, and if based on your exchanges you genuinely had no reason to worry, then I respect that. But would I have felt threatened, I would have at least cautioned such a person that if he or she doesn't cease and desist immediately, authorities will be notifed, which would have to involve the FBI since it crosses state borders. That would likely shut down 99.5% of stalkers and harrassers.

I've had a few instances of people with whom I've had nasty exchanges saying to me "I'll be watching you from now on", and getting creeped out, even if they almost certainly meant that they'd keep an eye out for me purely online, not in real life. Still, it's unnerving when it happens, like asking someone what their real name is or where they live.

I try to keep online exchanges as impersonal as possible, and strictly on-issue. The only time I ask people about themselves is when it seems relevant, like asking someone if they're a lawyer in a discussion on legal matters. No need to give social engineers an opening.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Uh,Kovie, the US don't have privacy laws worth mentioning... (4.00 / 1)
...so the simple knowledge of personal infos, or the act of publishing them, is nothing that would get anyone in trouble with officials. It has to be coupled with serious threats for law enforcement to get involved, and even then it isn't clear if any action will be taken. Remember the fight against the "Nuremberg Files", a website listing the names and adresses of abortion doctors. It is still active, despite court rulings against it, huge punitive damages, and the original creaqtor being in jail:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

No misunderstanding, pls, I think such cyberstalking is frightening and a criminal act, and I think there should be better enforceable laws against this. But sadly, sending the offender a "cease and desist" or threatening him with the FBI isn't a sure way to stop this, if the stalker is a real nutcase. That's the bitter reality.


[ Parent ]
Ever heard of SiteMeter? (4.00 / 3)
It's a great little software tool that shows where your hits are coming from. A link from OpenLeft showed up in mine, so I wondered what it was, and came here to look at it -- just as I do with many other links that I get. If that be stalking, so be it. If it be creepy? Well, then every blogger who uses SiteMeter to see who's linking them, and then writes a response, is creepy. Funny, I thought that's how the blogosphere worked.

To be crystal clear, I can go for days, weeks, months, years, without thinking about David Sirota at all, let alone stalking him. In fact, I have. David Letterman has stalkers; probably Madonna has stalkers; Sirota shouldn't flatter himself.

Meanwhile, though, the sentence that really got me paying attention, for now, to Sirota -- and, as I said, I'd really like to stop paying attention to him as soon as possible -- was this one, addressed to Clintonites (by whom I assume Sirota means Clinton voters): "STFU and slither back to your rathole of bitterness." How Sirota could write that and not expect bullshit to be called is hard to imagine. But write it he did, there was rather mild pushback -- nothing at all like the pushback on Kos when the primaries were at their height -- and here we are.

The primaries are over. I've moved on -- though I've learned some lessons. But, like about half of Democratic voters, I voted for the candidate that Sirota didn't support. That hardly merits the level of invective that Sirota musters, particularly so long after the event.

It seems to me that progressive energies would be better spend in undoing the damage caused by the aggrandizement of executive power (FISA, state secrets privilege); unaccountable and opaque financial power (TARP, BARF); and in protecting Social Security, rather than in ripping open the old wounds of the primaries. Yes?

NOTE And now, I've spent far too much time, and at least two hours of sleep time dealing with this. And so to bed.


I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


Holier than lambert? (4.00 / 1)
Lambert has a little blog where almost nobody but lambert can post, and here's Sirota duking it out with all comers on a wide open venue.

Which one of these guys is a honcho, and which one is a horseshit holier-than-thou nobody?

There's a puzzle that even lambert can probably figure out.


[ Parent ]
Pay them no mind (0.00 / 0)
Alleged racist Lambert Strether spent the primaries warning people of the ominous similarities between the Obama campaign and the Nazis (that is, when he wasn't defending actual racist and pathological liar Larry Johnson). The rest of correntewire (vastleft, amberglow, et al.) are just a bunch of Lambert sycophants.

myiq=2, he's just looking to get himself a little PUMA tail.

Quelle horreur! Aussi.


[ Parent ]
Some of it... (4.00 / 1)
Might be the country coming apart at the seems, but some of it might just be that your writing style is polarizing (think, for example, of your tendency to dismiss critics as "stalkers" who engage in "dear leaderism" and "czarism.").

Nah... (4.00 / 1)
Nah, I don't think so (and for the record, I never dismissed critics as engaging in "czarism" - I wrote that czarism is an increasing public policy trend in our government). I think the intensity of the anger out there is at a level I haven't ever seen in my time in politics - and I think the tenor of some of the vitriol directed at parts of the left by the self-described left suggests something deeper than so-called "polarizing" blog posts.

But we can agree to disagree.


[ Parent ]
Did you miss the anger about George W. Bush? (0.00 / 0)
"I think the intensity of the anger out there is at a level I haven't ever seen in my time in politics"
Uh huh.
More caution with those superlatives, pls. Never say ever.
:D

[ Parent ]
I agree with Sirota about unprecedented anger. (4.00 / 2)
If you check the threads on Daily Kos where fanatics for Obama attacked anyone who posted anything critical about him, I don't think you can find anything comparable in the threads about George W. Bush.

I supported Kucinich and Wesley Clark, and posted criticism of every other Democrat, especially Hillary Clinton, but there was absolutely no comparison between Clintonistas and Obamabots in the realm of abuse.

"Cockroach!"

"Racist!"

Over and over and over and over and over...

In comparison, Clintonistas and all others were relatively genteel.


[ Parent ]
Ok, I almost never read DKos... (4.00 / 1)
..and I don't want to do now, so I will concede this point.  

[ Parent ]
But just between you and me... (4.00 / 1)
I was angrier at Bush and Cheney than I ever was at anybody, and I'm not exactly mellow.

For a sample, without referring you to the dreaded Orange Monstrosity, you could check out my letter on Salon about "Republican Torture-Pigs and Perverts."


[ Parent ]
On This, We Agree More Then We Disagree (0.00 / 0)
I think the tenor of some of the vitriol directed at parts of the left by the self-described left suggests something deeper than so-called "polarizing" blog posts.

I think that is probably true. I think there is definitely 'something' out there going on.

But I do think it is also more amplified with you. I doubt Matt Yglesias (and this is not a knock - I like his writing) inspires the same kind of passion - partially because his tone is fundamentally different.

So I choose 'all of the above.'


[ Parent ]
OpenLeft becomes "Not Fringe Left"? (4.00 / 4)
Please redefine this site.

Who is the Fringe Left, and where do they hang out?
Do I belong there instead?
Nader lovers are fringe, Clinton lovers are fringe,
are Dean lovers fringe, or otay?

I searched for "NotOpenLeft.Com" to be sure, but doesn't
exist.

Matt, Chris, come back.


Checking for Stalker Traits (4.00 / 2)
I have to confess, I read Digby and FireDogLake and Shakesville and occasionally respond within seconds of a post. I've started apology letters to them for stalking them, it must be deeply horrifying to be in their position.

[ Parent ]
David, don't dramatize this, those aren't stalkers! (4.00 / 2)
THIS is a stalker:
http://dennisthepeasant.typepa...

Look at this pathetic example of a fanatic cyberstalker, who once used to be one of the at least somewhat reasonable conservatives, and you'll see that the random blogstories that criticize you are nothing to call the whambulance for, especially since you much too often give people good reasons to criticize you!

And, like Chris already said, less Meta stories, please! Once again, this is starting to look as if this is all about you, you, you...
:-/


fringe left? (4.00 / 1)
its anyone to the left of you, no matter where you are on the spectrum.

all liberals hate anyone to the left of them more than anyone hates anything in the world.

we all want to rage against conservatives, not be raged against.  thus all the antipathy towards truth tellers:  nader, chomsky et al.

im against private property, private parts, and private eyes.  i propose we share everything, including wives, and sit in an intergalatic circle singing kum bay ya.

so to me everyone is a corporate hack.


In Rome (4.00 / 1)
Africa starts in Naples, in Naples it starts in Sicily, in Milano, it starts anywhere to the south.

[ Parent ]
Abusive posts eventually derange anybody. (4.00 / 1)
David Sirota is being insulted every day by dozens of whatevers: Right, left, far right, far left, and center.

The cumulative effect of constant abuse is extremely unnerving, and the likeliest outcome is that Mr. Sirota will stop engaging commenters.

Since OpenLeft is the only site that I know of where prominent writers like David Sirota actually debate with readers, all of us have a clear interest in protecting Mr. Sirota's peace of mind, refraining from personal attacks against him, and punishing whoever attacks him personally.

This doesn't really impose any constraint on substantive debate. If Mr. Sirota says A, it's perfectly possible argue for not-A without attributing negative personal qualities to anyone.

It's blazingly obvious that David Sirota is an intelligent person who is deeply committed to the progressive agenda, and if anyone claims otherwise, it behooves the rest of us administer a virtual beat-down forthwith, before Sirota withdraws from the ongoing unpleasantness, and OpenLeft turns into just another site where meaningless pseudonyms squabble among themselves in total obscurity.



And That's Why (0.00 / 0)
It is common on actively moderated sites to block or ban personal attacks on the posters and/or hosts.

[ Parent ]
is it your goal to become Joe Klein? (3.43 / 7)
your thin skin is most important, and people who criticize you are "hate stalkers" and "sociopaths" and "fringe left", etc?  

seriously? it's necessary for you to repeatedly write about this, and to be so divisive, dismissive, and insulting -- and to sound just like the worst of the worst in mainstream media?

07 -- Beware the Bloggers' Bile --
http://www.time.com/time/natio...


Amberglow! (4.00 / 1)
You and I are usually on approximately the same page, but I really think you should cut David Sirota some slack here.

He's getting insulting emails and comments 24/7, and it's stressing him out.

Try to put yourself in his place! Human beings aren't really designed to shrug off insults beyond a certain relatively low frequency and intensity, and in almost any other situation except the anonymous internet, who ever gets insulted 20 or 50 times in a day?

It's a weird and stressful stimulus for anybody to absorb, and it really isn't comparable to obscure posters getting one or two negative replies to a post.


[ Parent ]
i'm a big fan of his, but this is too much already -- (4.00 / 2)
it's enormously thin-skinned -- and most importantly -- not at all issue- or policy-based.

emails to him do not come from participants here.

other blogs are allowed to say whatever the hell they want.

how many of these posts have we seen this week? how many should there be?

how does any of this help anyone anywhere? how does this help get liberal programs enacted? how does this stop the right? how does this makes lives better? ...

how is this -- and all these insults -- at all "open", "left", or "liberal" or "progressive"?


[ Parent ]
everyone with opinions gets attacks -- and the more public, the more attacks -- (4.00 / 2)
Sirota has a syndicated column and appears on TV. He's a big boy, and this works against his issue-based writing in a giant way.

it's his criticism of people and derisive painting as "fringe left" and "stalkers" that's absolutely what the regular media does -- and it's absolutely not helpful to anyone, but simply propagating the false belief that people who are liberal and on the left should be treated as disposable.

it's way too like how Obama and other DC Democrats position themselves AGAINST liberals the same ways using the same language.  


[ Parent ]
Okay. (0.00 / 0)
I understand what you're saying, and in general I agree. The difference is that I think Sirota is just temporarily freaked out by abusive comments and emails, instead of adopting negative characterizations of the left as part of a continuing program, like the MSM and DLC.

All abuse produces a visceral reaction, even in a virtual forum like the internet, and I don't want to hold stressed-out people to some absolute standard of beautiful behavior, when they are basically fighting the good fight under difficult circumstances.

And maybe it's wrong to belabor this point, but I still have to say...

Getting dozens of insulting emails and comments in one day is something most of us never have to deal with, and it has to be stressful to social animals like human beings.


[ Parent ]
i know what you mean -- (4.00 / 1)
but all week we've seen "freaked out" posts with escalating and enormously derisive and insulting rhetoric -- and is this really the best way to go about it if he wants not to be "freaked out"?

it went from emails to him in the beginning, to calling other blogs/bloggers "stalkers" and "fringe" and "deranged" -- and they all posted solely in response to Sirota's post painting it as some primary/Clinton thing, etc -- were the emails to him even from the ones he's now attacking?

as for "adopting negative characterizations of the left as part of a continuing program, like the MSM and DLC" :

-- whether he intends it or not, that kind of labeling -- and dismissal --  is one of the biggest and most pervasive ways all liberal issues and policies are denounced and ignored everyday everywhere.

Sirota knows this, and also knows that it's a cheap way to position oneself as "reasonable" -- because it's in comparison to some strawman "fringe" that gets denounced always.

-- and over and over during this election cycle it was used to attack all who weren't onboard with Obama-- by Obama himself too.

Many many Democrats online and off -- especially liberals -- and all who are "partisan" and "fighters" -- are still rightfully upset that important issues and fights that lifetimes have been spent furthering were dismissed, denigrated, and ignored outright. Sirota threw lighter fluid on all that -- and now throws even more in response to their response.



[ Parent ]
Migod, David (2.00 / 2)
How very sad.

Nader was right (0.00 / 0)
Obama is a sell out, get over yourself people are upset because people like you pretended Obama was something he was not (a progressive). I live in Iowa so I knew how conservative Obama was from the beginning. David rails against the money wing of the democratic party and then completely supports a candidate who raised 600 million dollars, more money than his opponent from Wall Street. Finally me thinks you doth protest too much.

I think this is the line between the nutjobs and the passionate... (4.00 / 2)
It doesn't take much realism to understand that if you want to make any real, critical change in this country you have to work from within one of the two parties or you have to a real long term and deep drive to nurture a third party.  If you want to bitch and moan as some oppressed 'outsider' you are either a crybaby or a nutjob (Nader is more the former, you I don't know).  I would be shocked if you were devoting any major part of your life to fostering a third party effort rather than just moaning because you have poor reading comprehension.

As a progressive who hopes to make the Democratic party more progressive you have to work within what the party offers.  You hope for victory rather than defeat since it is always more likely to shift policy in your direction if someone in your party is running the show. Who was David supposed to support during the election?  

I think this site was one of the better ones in acknowledging that progressive didn't have a legitimate champion in the Presidential election.  In fact the progressive bloggers I read seemed pretty reticent to get behind a candidate until it became obvious that Obama was going to win the primary.  Now that he is in office most of the bloggers I read have been pretty critical of him.  DKos is the only exception and that site has always been more to the center than sites like this one, Digby, and even Eschaton.  

People who protest too much are those who aren't sending threatening and abusive emails or writing similarly on their blogs, but seem to take anything Sirota says about the perpetrators as a reflection on themselves.  Not sure what this says about people like you, but I can't help but wonder sort of viciousness you hold in your heart to come to the defense of the 'stalkers'.  


[ Parent ]
I wasn't defending them... (0.00 / 0)
I was just pointing out a lot of people are angry because people like David were disingenuous about Obama. David is a big boy he can handle himself, if he doesn't like the heat he should have stayed out of the lime light, because everyone and mean everyone knows this kind of stuff happens when you go on TV and radio a lot. And you know how many of those threats are followed through on, next to none probably something in the range of 0.0000000000001 percent of the time.

As for this site during the presidential election, I would not know I did not visit here until after the election. I was talking about David's post on his blog over at workingforchange.org.


[ Parent ]
I was an Edwards/Clinton (4.00 / 2)
supporter myself. Of course I thought Sirota was too pro-Obama during the primaries because guess what, everyone was too pro-Obama during the primaries.

When the primaries were over however, I thought he recovered equilibrium much quicker than most and got back on the ball of being pro-movement instead of pro-candidate. And that's where he's been ever since.

Now it seems he gets the worst of both worlds -- people who hold grudges against him for being pro-Obama during the primaries AND people who hold grudges because he is not sufficiently pro-Obama now. It's stupid.


Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
"I am concerned about his temperament and his intellectual honesty." (2.67 / 3)
This is spot on:

More than my disagreements, I am concerned about his temperament and his intellectual honesty. Nothing good will come from his high profile and when he flames out he is going to create some collateral damage. It should be clear now, at the outset, that significant voices in the blogosphere do not want to be associated with Sirota, don't subscribe to his faux populism, do not trust him, and take no responsibility for his actions going forward.

He claims to be a leader within the progressive movement, and he has his followers. But his cause is not my cause and his movement is not something I recognize as representative of what the blogosphere is all about.



Your concern has been noted (0.00 / 0)
and will be filed with the appropriate department. Thank you.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Hey, you missed mine! (4.00 / 3)
I "stalked" you here
Sorry, but you're starting to sound more and more like Donna Brazile and her blackberry tantrums("stop the hate!"). With the added absurdity that the "stalking" only started after you issued a "STFU" order to a large number of people disagreeing with you.
I am old enough to remember when I loved your writing and I was looking forward to my American Progress Report newsletters. Until someone handled to be a figurehead called you and your fragile ego exploded...
Again, no matter how you rationalize a stolen primary (which, at best produced no winner), you'll still have to live with the consequences of your choice and and spin for it.

Donna Brazile? (4.00 / 3)
For reals?  Donna Brazile?

You frothing PUMA nutters were posting her business email address all over your Obama hate sites and inundating her with hateful screeds because she appeared to be leaning toward Obama on CNN (the horror!). It's amazing she remained as calm as she did.

Here's one example of her "blackberry tantrums":

You should go back to the day before NH, the night after Obama won WI, etc. What sickens me is if I say good things about him, the other side rebels.

What does it say about the process? Just tired and when it is over, I am going to release the emails. They have been vile, racist and nasty.

If anyone has a right to complain about stalking, it's Brazile.


[ Parent ]
This from a guy whose blog is devoted to stalking PUMAs (0.00 / 0)
They've literally live-blogged our threads over at Rumproast.

BTW - Kevin recently posted this comment:

My dick scale:

myiq1/2u --> lambert strether 2.0/bugfucker --> sirota

I guess size does matter

http://www.rumproast.com/index...


[ Parent ]
Correction (4.00 / 4)
"This from a guy whose blog is devoted to occasionally indulges in stalking pointing and laughing at PUMAs"

Fixed.


[ Parent ]
Like minds. (4.00 / 1)
Too funny.

[ Parent ]
Only if "occasionally" (0.00 / 0)
means 90%+ of posts and comments

[ Parent ]
You're full of crap (3.00 / 4)
And anyone who has a shred of doubt about that can verify it for themselves at the site.  

[ Parent ]
Betty, he's using PUMA math... (4.00 / 4)
...and we've all seen how foolproof that's been for well over a year now.

[ Parent ]
You're confusing stalking... (4.00 / 5)
...with pointing and laughing.

And, jeepers, thanks for proving that you're constantly stalking us and Sirota! Stalker McStalker!

p.s. What's with you PUMAs and the obsession with penis size?


[ Parent ]
My two cents (4.00 / 8)
First, the context. Although I've read OpenLeft since the beginning, I've only been commenting here for a few months, so I don't know a lot of the history behind this kerfuffle. For what it's worth, it was principally Paul Rosenberg's diaries which attracted me to the site. I've long considered Paul one of the most important public thinkers on the Left, in that he places what we're pleased to call progressive in a broader historical and cultural context, something which, in my opinion, we desperately need.

That said, David is another kettle of fish. Ever the passionate advocate, and never entirely housebroken. This is a good thing, I think, especially for those of us who lack his energy and combativeness. I don't always agree with him, and when I've said so in the past, I've felt the pointy end of his displeasure, so I figure I have a right to weigh in here. I wouldn't exactly tell his critics to get a life, but I do think we're we're lucky to have him, warts and all.

And what are those warts? What is he being accused of? The complaints voiced most often are that

1) He's arrogant and dismissive. Perhaps, but his critics are often whiny and passive-aggressive to a fault. Can't we all get along? becomes a cover for sniping that seem to me to be more cranky and personal than substantive.

2) He's a faker; all that matters to him is self-aggrandizement; he isn't actually a progressive, and furthermore, he's faking his populism. This seems like utter nonsense to me. His Bill Moyers interview, to take just one example, was one as thoughtful and articulate a bit of advocacy for the cause as any I've heard in a long time. There wasn't a word in it about David Sirota, let alone any hit of an attempt to advertise his own prominence. As for his not being a true progressive; my response is that if he isn't, who the hell is?

As for BooMan's accusation of faux populism, my take is that BooMan seems to find populism of any kind distasteful. For the record, I do not. The people are messy allies, but they're the only ones worth having if we don't want to wind up talking to each other in a think tank somewhere. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, and all that. We'd do well to learn to live with them, and with David, who offers us much more than he takes in return.


You're a freaking poet, man. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Keep up your bias towards the truth (4.00 / 1)
I respect your intellectuality and objectivity, David.  Some folks are too biased to see.  We have a phenomenom in this country a lot like sports fan mania between some folks and their political party.  They cheer on their "team" no matter what they do because their "team" is better then the other team.  Yes, the democrats are better than the republicans, but we don't have a team because no team represents us.

Keep up the good work.  You are exposing the truth, it's up to others to open their eyes to it and not be blinded by party worship.

Z


Authenticity? (4.00 / 3)
This kinda reminds me quite a lot of my old Englishing days when I was working on my M.A. thesis.  My primary focus was post-colonialism and there was a great essay by an Australian (don't remember his name) about how activist Aborigines were consistently disempowered by being portrayed as inauthentic.  The process was really very simple:

Step 1) Establish the fact that all Aborigines are undereducated and lazy.

Step 2) Establish the fact that aboriginal political activists are not, in fact, undereducated and lazy.

Step 3) Politically active Aborigines are consequently not authentic and therefore can't properly speak for the concerns of the real Aborigines.

A similar thing happens with progressives and liberals in the U.S and it's a very powerful right-wing frame:

Step 1) Real progressives/liberals are poor and not concerned with money.

Step 2) Progressives/liberals who make a living on progressive causes are not real progressives, as the only real progressives are poor people who do it out of love and refuse all compensation.  Sirota is not rich and must make a living out of his work, promoting himself along with his causes, therefore his beliefs can't possibly be sincere.

Step 3) The only real progressives/liberals have a low profile because they're poor and have little influence with which to have their voice heard.  Success without betrayal is impossible because the idea of heroic self-immolation is so central to the belief system.  (See: Nader, Ralph and fans)

A certain tinge of martyrdom is necessary for progressives/liberals to be seen as real, and so we end up with incessant charges of hypocrisy aimed at people like Al Gore (he doesn't live in a grass shack, he's not a real environmentalist!) and (sorry, David) much lower-profile people like David who are trying to make a living out of working towards progressive ends.


Yuck (4.00 / 1)
I feel soiled just reading this thread. If all you bloggers would simply stick to the facts as best you can instead of engaging in these ridiculous ad-hominem exchanges you would be doing the broader discourse a favor. You guys sound like you're one step away from talk radio level hyperbole. Never mind, you're already there.

I mean honestly Sirota you post something that says Shut The Fuck Up a couple times, then revel in the hits you get in outraged response, classify your respondents as "stalkers," and revel in your punching bag/martyr status. You say stuff like "I sincerely love them all" Well alright! You "sincerely love them." Let me make a cross for you so you can suffer more comfortably while you languish in your love.

Funny thing is I agree that most of these people you linked to are, in the main, just a hair shy of crazy. But who is more crazy? The "sane" guy who argues with the crazy person, or the crazy person? Once you establish that someone is beyond the pale of reason it's time to move on. It's precisely the fact that these people still re-live the primary every single hour of every single day that makes them who they are. Ignore them and just focus on the present. Unless of course, you are are just trying to generate more hits. Then, by all means continue in this manner.  


i hope this ends soon. (4.00 / 1)
srsly.

enough with the personality wars already.  i've only a handful of lefty sites i visit and i'd hate to lose this one.


"happy" (4.00 / 2)
David, I think some people are just happy when they're unhappy.

Keep up the good work.


Taking the hits, and still standing (4.00 / 1)
David, I don't remember how I found you, but somehow through all my searching I remember reading your column, "Mr. Obama Goes to Washington," in 2006, and saying, hey this guy gets it. So, please know, that with all the naysayers, haters, stalkers, etc., there are people looking for the TRUTH, and know it when they read it. Keep the faith, and thank you for reminding us all, what made this country great, and the ties that bind us all.  

Infestation! (4.00 / 2)
Goodness.  Myiq, Lambert, Vastleft?  This is like a who's who of irrelevant bloggers around here.

I have been trying to get them to stalk me, but obviously my writing chops and startling witticisms have not proven to be bait enough.

My favorite part is their eternal victim status.  Yes, Rumproast has occasionally written about you.  But that is only because the lulz generated by laughing at you nutcases far outweighs the effort it takes to actually write the post.

In the world of the PUMA, any amount greater than zero = 90%

And Dave, seriously.  If you're going to allow me to comment, at least have the decency to blogroll me, and while you're at it could you make me a sandwich?

It's the least you could do.


people criticize me (0.00 / 0)
because they have too much time on their hands. Really Sirota, that is what you sound like. Corrente and the others are not stalking you, just criticizing what they disagree with. Of these sites, Corrente is the only one I read regularly, but none of their posts could reasonably be described as stalking.

Oliver Willis and Booman have also criticized you,  but you go after Corrente. Why? Because Corrente is to some degree already marginalized at it is safe to go after them?


Or... (0.00 / 0)
...It is fun to poke the circus freaks with a stick.

[ Parent ]
Poor you (0.00 / 0)
I've heard stories about the kind of angry, threatening calls and messages our Democratic representatives get, when you & other "progressive" bloggers write rants demonizing and scapegoating them whenever you don't agree. It seems some "progressives" traffic in anger and hate just as much as Rush Limbaugh does, and you've made a career of whipping it up and aiming it at your fellow Democrats. Calling those who don't agree with you "fringe left" and "stalkers"?  Looks like you're doing it again right now.

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