"Dangerous"

by: David Sirota

Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 23:12


Iceman: I don't like you because you're dangerous.

Maverick: That's right, Iceman. I am dangerous.

Top Gun, 1986

Last week, Nate Silver said "now is not the time" for any movements - progressive or otherwise - to pressure the government on economic policy, and demanded that progressives defer to "expert opinion" (a euphemism for "Establishment-approved opinion"). This line of thinking has been so prevalent among the elite political class for so long, that it could accurately brand an entire faction of officeholders - for instance, the "Now Is Not the Time" Democrats who rubber stamped the Patriot Act and the Iraq War because they said "now is not the time to question the president."

After Nate issued his edict to progressives, I and a few others challenged his premise, saying history teaches that now is exactly the time for movements to pressure the government. And, like a lot of self-described "experts" who don't like having their Mt. Olympus orders questioned, Nate has responded with a bit of a temper tantrum - but one that lets us explore some pretty important questions. Specifically, tonight he has written a new post calling himself a "rational progressive" and denigrating everyone he disagrees with as "radical progressives" - and in classic Bush construction, you're either with Nate or you're a "radical" and a "Marxist" (his words) who is a mortal threat to America.

Before delving further, let me just praise Nate for accurately identifying a few of the different strands and tactics of progressivism (though his attempt to depict a multi-faceted, grassroots movement through a binary prism is oversimplistic to the point of distortion). In fact, when I spent a day with Barack Obama back in 2006, the then-Illinois senator made a very smart distinction between "reformers" and "revolutionaries" that tracked the outlines of some of what Nate wrote tonight. But what Obama didn't do (likely because he's both too smart to do it and probably doesn't believe in it) and what Nate did do is use the same kind of dishonest framing the right has used for a better part of a generation, in hopes of marginalizing and ridiculing his critics.

For example, Nate says he is "rational" but people he disagrees with are supposedly "radical" - as if anyone more radical than him can't be "rational." He says "rational" progressives are interested in "ideas" and "reason" while "radicals" are interested in "wills" - and the implication is that "radicals" are know-nothings uninterested in "ideas" or "reason." Nate is an "optimist" and says we're "pessimists." Oh, and of course there's the oldest of old canards: Nate's "rational" colleagues "see ideology as malleable" (ie. they are "pragmatic!") while "radical" progressives are rigid "Marxists." Basically, you get the point: Nate loves his country and the rest of us know-nothing fools hate America.

Let's be very clear: this is not about a petty "Nate Silver versus David Sirota" grudge match (at least for my part, I have no grudge and find lots of Nate's work extremely valuable), and it's far more important than a silly intra-blog flamewar. This is about something much bigger. Why? Because the language Silver employs is the hackneyed tripe we all have gotten used to in the Bush years, whether from the DLC or from the Republican Party. It's the kind of language that packaged true policy radicalism -  foreign wars, financial deregulation, rigged trade pacts, etc. - as "rational" and "ideas"-based, and opposition to such radicalism as Luddite and, well, simply too "radical." It's nothing new or interesting. It's straight up archaic and, frankly, boring.

However, what is notable is Nate's McCarthyist accusation that those who seek transformative change are "dangerous."  

David Sirota :: "Dangerous"
As you'll see, at the end of Nate's post, he cites two random blog posts (that are, by the way, verifiably true) as proof that I - and progressives he thinks are too "radical" - pose a "danger" to the United States (interestingly, Booman made a similar claim a few days ago as well).

If American history teaches anything, it is that the "dangerous" epithet is the last and most banal refuge of those who seek to preserve the status quo. From Joe McCarthy slandering progressives as dangerous communists to George W. Bush saying anti-war activists were dangerous terrorist sympathizers, Estasblishmentarians have been painting their foes as threats to the nation for decades.

Aimed at me individually, the charge is clearly so silly it should undermine the credibility of anyone making it. I'm a journalist, an author and a blogger. The idea that I alone can "marshal an army," as Nate says I can, is laughable. I mean, yes, I'd like to think my work is making an impact - but me alone "marshaling an army?" If you think that, you're spending too much time with Michael Phelps and his bong.

The idea that my work, or the work of anyone more "radical" than Nate Silver, is "dangerous" - well, that's not laughable, nor is it insulting, really. It's a badge of honor, and I want to thank Nate for throwing out the epithet. I say that not because I think the progressive movement is "dangerous" to the United States, but because it is, in fact, dangerous to the status quo, and throughout history, when the status quo starts calling progressives dangerous, it means we're actually starting to make a serious impact.

Let's remember that the FBI, for instance, called Martin Luther King "the most dangerous man in America" and a dishonest demagogue as he was pushing - and ultimately passing - transformative civil rights laws. Let's remember that labor union activists in the 1930s and protestors against the Vietnam War were all called the same thing in their time.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "Is Sirota so egomaniacal that he's actually likening himself to Dr. King or the great heroes who helped build the labor movement or end the Vietnam War?" Of course not. I'm one journalist, author and blogger living in Denver, Colorado, and while I hope my work is making some kind of impact, I have no delusions of grandeur. But I point out the historical examples to remind everyone that as we head into these next few weeks and months, the issues before Congress and the country are only going to get more divisive - and I suspect the "dangerous" epithet is going to be thrown around a lot by the Nate Silvers and everyone who isn't interested in transformative change.

The stimulus bill was as close to an ironclad political inevitability as any bill that has come before Congress in a long time. The economy is tanking, a mandate election just happened, and the bill had a huge amount of momentum behind it. But the next set of bills - EFCA, universal health care, bankruptcy reform, financial regulation, and initiatives dealing with climate change - are not inevitable. They are even more politically divisive than the stimulus, and you can bet that everyone pushing anything truly transformative is going to be called "demagogic," "dangerous" and far worse.

So when that happens, don't say you weren't warned by Nate Silver or by me, and also - don't feel bad, feel honored. To be called a danger to the Establishment is to be told we are making the right people scared - it is to be told that those in power are genuinely scared that we're going to succeed in our efforts to change things.

Indeed, change actually is dangerous to the status quo - and so we shouldn't expect that status quo to do anything other than tell us it thinks we're "dangerous." We are a danger to the Establishment - which is exactly why we're the opposite of dangerous to the country at large, and exactly why when our opponents tell us we're "dangerous," we should respond as Maverick did to Iceman: immediately, affirmatively and proudly.

ADDENDUM: A few people in the comments here, and in the Quick Hits, have basically said that Nate shouldn't be taken 100% seriously in his writing about movements, because, up until now, most of his work has been analyzing poll numbers. While I agree that Nate's glaring inexperience on political campaigns, in political organizing, and in movement building likely prevents him from producing the same kind of quality work about movements as he has produced in analyzing polls, I don't think that alone should disqualify his opinions from being considered legitimate. Everyone has a right to an opinion and a right to make their case, whether they have a fancy title behind their name, or whether they have - or haven't - been involved in politics. That's what democracy is all about - all people should have a right to make their case and have their case treated with respect (though, as an aside, I do find the sheer level of chutzpah amazing among people with zero experience on campaigns or in organizing/movement building nonetheless firing off such declarative orders about what a campaign or a movement should and shouldn't do). When we don't respect that principle, we do exactly what the media elite do, which is to prioritize someone's opinion over someone else's based on privilege, title, or some other ascribed trait. What should determine the legitimacy of someone's argument is whether it is convincing and whether it holds water on the merits/facts. Nate has every right to make his case and have it be treated seriously by us - it's legitimacy should be judged on whether it is convincing and whether it stands on the merits/facts. And obviously, I think he falls short on those latter metrics.


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"Dangerous" | 98 comments
Agreed (4.00 / 15)
This is spot on. It should be readily apparent to anyone with open eyes that the status quo is the single most dangerous force we're dealing with, whether we're discussing the economy, the environment or foreign policy.

Nate Silver is a smart guy, and perhaps the best election forecaster around, but David is absolutely right to call him out on his recent remarks.


When people vote for change in droves, (4.00 / 3)
the last thing they want is the status quo maintained.  

Measured by his campaign promises, Obama and his WH aren't doing what they promised; and yes, I absolutely expect him to tell the truth and to keep his word.  


[ Parent ]
Great post. (4.00 / 4)
Not usually a fan of your work but this was right on.

It's just ignorance (4.00 / 7)
Nate's definitions are not only willful, they're utterly ahistorical. There's no more point arguing with him than there is arguing with a libertarian. He should stick to Dungeons and Dragons.

Yeah, I pretty much agree (4.00 / 17)
Silver's mostly just making grand sounding stuff up to settle an argument that's really about some very different issues.

Silver's original argument was basically that we should simply defer to the experts, and Obama's experts in particular, on what needs to be done.

He never addresses the obvious problems: experts disagree -- what then? Experts have biases -- what then? Experts are sometimes demonstrably and catastrophically wrong -- what then?

All this philosophizing junk is just a shiny object to prevent anyone from noticing he hasn't addressed any of these issues.  


[ Parent ]
Experts? .. (4.00 / 4)
You mean like Geithner and Summers?  If Volcker had the power .. I could live with that ... but not Summers and Geithner .. they both helped cause this mess

[ Parent ]
Silver (4.00 / 1)
"All this philosophizing junk is just a shiny object to prevent anyone from noticing he hasn't addressed any of these issues.  "

It's funny because from his writings you can tell what he's good at what he's not good at. Philosophizing ain't one of them. Or policy making for that matter. He's a great political hack, meant in the nicest most complimentary way, but that's about the extent of it.


[ Parent ]
could you define "hack" (4.00 / 2)
Because it has many meanings, and I honestly don't know what you mean by repeatedly calling him a "political hack."


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
Did I do it repeatedy? (4.00 / 3)
A "hack" to me is someone who works on political strategy, i.e. winning elections, but not so much on public policy or political philosophy.

[ Parent ]
thanks (0.00 / 0)
Someone has said in previous diaries, maybe it wasn't you.  Didn't mean to offend.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
For someone who IS an expert in statistical analysis (4.00 / 3)
I think that Nate should know better than most that lots of people can call themselves "experts", have the credentials to do so, and actually BE experts, but still get it wrong. Which is why it's vital to have others, especially outsiders, second-guessing the "experts". You'd think that given that he basically made his name as an outsider in his own field, who questioned the validity or accuracy of established experts like Gallup or Rasmussen, he'd get the need for this to happen in politics in general. Talk about a lack of an irony detector.

He'll get it sooner or later, I'm guessing. (But I'd have to see the polling on that to be sure...)

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 2)
Silver is a statistician. He's not a political scientist or a historian and should quit pretending to be one - just like I don't pretend to be a statistician.

[ Parent ]
It's not so much that he should quit pretending to be one (4.00 / 7)
as that he should quit doing it so poorly. We're all entitled to try our hand at amateur political scientist, lawyer, economist, historian, etc.--in fact that's what most of us do here, who aren't these things. But we are, I think, obliged to put at least a little thought and knowledge into it before we do so, or else we're doing a disservice to the ongoing discussion and opening ourselves to justified criticism and ridicule. But some people have to learn the hard way...

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Money Shot from your article in 2006 (4.00 / 7)
However, he appears to be interested in fighting only for those changes that fit within the existing boundaries of what's considered mainstream in Washington, instead of using his platform to redefine those boundaries. This posture comes even as polls consistently show that Washington's definition of mainstream is divorced from the rest of the country's (for example, politicians' refusal to debate the war even as polls show that Americans want the troops home).

Obama's deference to these boundaries was hammered home to me when our discussion touched on the late Senator Paul Wellstone. Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent." He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama's support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party. And I understood why Beltway publications and think tanks have heaped praise on Obama and want him to run for President. It's because he has shown a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment.



That's one of my favorite articles from Sirota. (4.00 / 8)
Sirota was one of the few progressive writers around that time who had Obama all figured out before Obama became this phenom. Other progressive writers were too bedazzled by the media spectacle to judge the politics behind the rhetoric. Sirota should be very proud of that piece.

[ Parent ]
Here's Obama In His Own Words (4.00 / 7)
Speaking in 2006 to Rubin's "Wall Street Democrats" at the Hamilton Project that David mentions:

http://www.brookings.edu/comm/...

A quick snapshot:

SEN. OBAMA: Thank you. Thank you very much.
I would love just to sit here with these folks and listen because you have on this panel and in this room some of the most innovative, thoughtful policymakers, people who have both ideas but also ways of implementing them into action. Our country owes a great debt to a number of people who are in this room because they helped put us on a pathway of prosperity that we are still enjoying, despite the best efforts of some.

Towards the end of his speech, he goes out of his way to work in a few points about "how we need to do more for the losers" of globalization. So I think this speech is a great way of summing up Obama's views on the economy: he definitely wants to use his position to ameliorate what he would probably term "the excesses" of globalization [the system], and he'll stick his chin out to do that. That's a very sincere desire of his, a part of his mission.

But there is only so far that he intends to ever go...and it seems none of that would include bedrock change.

So I post this not to "break" with the guy, or undercut him...but so we can have a realistic view of the politician we are dealing with.


[ Parent ]
Go easy on him. (4.00 / 3)
He does great empirical work, but clearly he's a bit new to the whole political philosophy thing.  Somehow, spending his time on sports and economics hadn't really prepared him for thinking about political ideas and history.  In fact, in my experience, an economics education mostly works to undo what little political common sense most of us accrue growing up.  But I think he will probably come around as the debate between the grownups -- that is, between various factions on the left -- retakes center stage.  Certainly, after this disastrous foray into ideas, he might be a bit more careful about marshaling his thoughts, so there's no need to lambaste him too harshly -- even if his rational/radical dichotomy is totally cockamamie.  

Yeah, but actually (4.00 / 2)
I can see that argument, but I don't want to discount him just BECAUSE he's been more of a technocrat than a political movement participant. Everyone has a right to their opinions, and everyone has a right to weigh in on movements they want to be part of. So I think sure, he's probably inhibited by his inexperience in movements, but we need to take his statements seriously.

[ Parent ]
You're WAY too kind -- N/T (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
This is on the money as well David (4.00 / 1)
I dont think Nate is to be dioiscounted, but his arguments on this topic expose his lack of facts and thought. It is merely a way of discounting the speaker and not the idea. I hope that Nate uses his very capable intellect to study these topics. I am not trying to discount him, nor I am trying to be coy or insulting. I think Nate will better understand these issues if he sets down and does the work necessary to actually defend his posituion. I await that. Eagerly.

But

On the specific issue he is trying to make. This is the point at which we all learn, through demanding action, through organizing and through political analysis. We will be stuck in the 50's, like America was after FDR if we do not.


[ Parent ]
this place smells weird (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Missed the boat here, but... (0.00 / 0)
A bit late returning to this thread, but for the record, I certainly wasn't advocating letting him off the hook permanently.  In fact, my original draft of the post above ended "there's no need to lambaste him too harshly.  Yet."  I certainly agree that being a tech guy doesn't give him a free pass -- on the contrary, it's that tendency economists have to spout off about political ideas that they've clearly given little thought to that so aggravates me and seems to be happening here.  My point was only that I think his ideas will mature rapidly, and though that maturation will only be speeded along by helpful criticism, I didn't want to inundate him with the full vitriol of intellectual disdain right off the bad.  Given how inchoate his ideas are so far, I think a nice tone might go a long way towards bringing his talents around towards that dangerous "radical" direction.



[ Parent ]
Dangerous! (4.00 / 6)
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous."
    --Alfred North Whitehead


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

Robert Whitehead obviously thought the same... (0.00 / 0)
...and consequently not only invented the first torpedo, but built a factory to make a business of producing them. Hmm, was he a distant relative of the philosopher?
:-/

[ Parent ]
CAGE MATCHES AT YEARLY KOS (4.00 / 1)
Two Bloggers enter, one blogger leave.  Welcome to thunder dome.  

If we do that, can I have a crack at Jerome...


You and me (0.00 / 0)
My friend, I want a cage match with Jerome and his Rasmusan poll numbers!

[ Parent ]
It really is about economics (4.00 / 12)
I explained this in Paul's post and I'll explain here as well.

It's time like this that I remind myself to stop saying "progressive" when what I really mean is "social democracy".

The problem here is that the term progressive got adopted by people espousing social democracy in the late 1990s to differentiate themselves from Clinton's "liberalism." Since "progressive" doesn't necessarily denote "social democracy" as Nate Silver discovered, that has enabled a lot of people who do not espouse social democracy to claim a "progressive" identity and thereby muddy the waters.

I think a lot of this is about diverging views on economic philosophy - differences that were muted during the Bush years but now are coming to the fore.

And Silver's comments - his references to Marxism, his comments on pushing on economic policy - prove the point. What underlies all of this is that he thinks Sirota and his ilk - a group I am proud to be a member - are trying to push left-wing policies Silver doesn't support. Silver's not a social democrat and so he doesn't want us pushing our stuff because he thinks it'll screw things up.

It's worth noting that Silver is a statistician and not a political scientist or a historian. But he understands pretty well the 60+ years of American politics that have been predicated on using McCarthyism to destroy social democracy, as he has repeated it himself.


disappointing (4.00 / 1)
and a reminder that we don't agree on everything, and being good at figuring out the stats isn't the same as building beyond them.

also a reminder (4.00 / 1)
that being good at statistics doesn't suddenly turn you into a political theorist...

[ Parent ]
I like the "demagoguing", mostly (4.00 / 6)
Obama puts up lots of vague trial balloon like "work on executive compensation". By virtue of their vagueness, it could be reasonable policy, cover for idiocy, or just a desire for a "centrist" compromise. I think it's important to make it clear to them that if the vague trial balloon is just a cover for idiocy, it's going to take a lot of fire.

However, I think Sirota looks bad by going off so strong on these things. The Obama administration is very slick at PR, and I think part of the goal of these vague trial balloons is to pin down people to positions they can then maneuver against. It's pretty obvious they're trying not to say anything specific, so if you just assume it's cover for idiocy you undercut your own position by assuming too much.  Ass-U-Me and all that.


I Think This Is Quite Astute (4.00 / 2)
It's a very clever strategy.  In fact, it's precisely what's meant by "too clever by half."

And you've nailed it perfectly.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting argument, but "demagoguery" should never be applauded! (4.00 / 1)
It's a very dangerous instrument that shouldn't be used by the left at all. After all, it's firstly the way rethuglicans make their case, and we would lose our ethical base to protest their distortions if we would use it, too. And secondly, facts and truth are still the best means of furthering our arguments, and when convincingly explained they aren't any less efficient weapons than demagoguery.

Really, we all rightly protested the Bush/Cheney/Rove strategy of distorting the truth by omitting contradicting informations, the horrible Newspeak created by perverting the established definitions of words, and the dishonesty of branding every critic a traitor. Show me anyone on the left who uses those same methods for making his points, or who encourages such tactics, and I show you a hypocrite!


[ Parent ]
not sure (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure I get the equivalence between being vague and demagoguery. Being vague isn't necessarily being dishonest.  

[ Parent ]
Right! I don't get it, either. (0.00 / 0)
My point is, faireconomy shouldn't applaud demagoguery in the headline of his comment. What he describes is something different, just political vagueness, as you correctly point out. And we on the left should be careful not to accidentally support horrible methods just because of misunderstanding their meaning.  

[ Parent ]
Oh, and I missed the "experts" discussion (4.00 / 1)
The "economic experts" at least have basically been total blithering idiots on this crisis and nobody should be listening to them. I expected a bubble back in 2002 (based on the insanely low interest rates) and that we'd eventually have a crash back to 2003. It was pretty dang obvious. To top it off, the strategy they're trying to follow (ultra-low interest rates and vast foreign borrowings) is exactly what got us into this mess so if it works we'll just see an even worse round 3 in another 5-10 years. And the TARP - OMG, could policy be worse?

FOUR (4.00 / 1)
Nate has every right to make his case and have it be treated seriously by us - it's legitimacy should be judged on whether it is convincing and whether it stands on the merits/facts. And obviously, I think he falls short on those latter metrics.

This is on the money. Nate is arguing "you are a flawed person" and therefor "your points can be discounted" this is not a respectable argument.


Nate (4.00 / 4)
Nate is a gifted statistician with a thorough understanding of the primary, caucus amd election processes.  Nate is also an Obama partisan.

In this particular case, the ability to prognosticate elections adds little to the discussion but his partisan sympathies explain much.

It looks like if Nate's predicting elections and nominations listen to him carefully.  If he's talking policy and process take it with a large box of salt.


[ Parent ]
Binary, Either/Or? (4.00 / 1)
You're bitching about someone else doing this (and he is)... and you're David Sirota - king of the "Me In Montana/Colorado VERSUS THE WORLD!!!!" construct? Perhaps you could go on tour with George W. Bush and lecture us about this in a joint seminar.

Oliver Willis


Barry Goldwater supported a 70% top income tax rate. (4.00 / 4)
Using these political terms in their proper historical perspective in the same way the rest of the world uses these terms, the only Federal elected official who is a "progressive" is Sen. Bernie Sanders. In proper historical/world perspective, based on voting record, there's not one single Federal elected official that's a member of the Democratic Party that anyone else in the world would define as "progressive." Not even Kucinich or Barbara Lee. They've caved too often on their beliefs.

It wasn't that long ago, a Republican considered by many to be a right wing extremist, Barry Goldwater, vocally supported a 70% top income tax rate. Kennnedy lowered the top rate to 70% and both Goldwater and Nixon said they supported keeping that 70% top tax rate. Nixon left the top tax rate at 70% his whole Presidency.

Right wing elements of US society didn't just move the country hard right in the last 4 decades. They changed the whole way the discussion is conducted. Now, the GOP was allowed to call the Clinton top income tax rate of roughly 39% as "socialism" without a whole lot of challenge from Democrats.

Sorry David, but nobody is very accurate on this particular item. None of you supports progressive policies when the terms are used the way the rest of the world defines these political terms.

And the Republicans? The rest of the world considers the GOP to be somewhere on measuring scale right near the Falangists of Francisco Franco's Spain.


You're Quite Right (4.00 / 2)
And it's hardly surprising.  Buckley and his NR crowd repeatedly praised Franco, along with Portugal's Salazar.  This carried over into hatred for the African freedom fighters in Portugal's African colonies, and thus support for those who opposed them, including apartheid South Africa.  It was only inevitable that as these reactions gained dominance over the GOP, the entire party would shift into this same modality itself.

One of the folks who was a most enthusiast part of this on the African front was, of course, Jack Abramoff.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh the Irony (4.00 / 1)
It seems like only yesterday on a daily basis you were accusing anyone and everyone who disagreed with your views on Obama as having fallen under some ridiculous "dear-leaderism" spell.  Only you and you alone knew the certain amount of support one should give, and anyone who disagreed with you were freely attacked and dismissed.  Your massive ego finds nothing wrong with attacking others who disagree with you, yet you are appalled at the notion that someone might attack you for not thinking like them.

Just because you've been published doesn't make you a journalist.  You flatter yourself.  


Who attacked who? (4.00 / 2)
Funny, I read this article as David defending himself from the charge of being "radical" and "dangerous."  You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I didn't see it the way you did.

[ Parent ]
This diary is radically dangerous--or is it dangerously radical, I forget (4.00 / 5)
Wait, let me get the DLC playbook, circa 2002, and look it up...

But seriously, I'm guessing that, given how great he was on polling through the campaign, that he's basically a really good numbers guy who is unsophisticated about and incredibly unlearned in the political, ideological and policy aspects of politics, and wrote a bunch of things without really knowing what the hell he was talking about, or realizing that he didn't know what the hell he was talking about, in mindlessly parotting establishment punditry talking points without having reflected on them much or realizing that there are alternate ways of looking at things.

I come across a lot of this, especially on DKos, where people who clearly haven't given the issues under discussion much thought, and have instead merely absorbed some ostensibly sensible-sounding piece of drivel in Time or Newsweek or on CNN--and not knowing how truly crappy these outlets are--uncritically, spout off some nonsensical establishmentarian meme or talking point that is easily shot down (or so one thinks, as they often come back with more). They literally don't know and haven't thought what they're talking about, and have no idea that they don't. It's frustrating, but all too common.

Except when the person in question is obviously a troll--and I think we can all agree that Nate is not a troll--what I try to do is slowly enlighten then and remove that veil of ignorance and self-ignorance that has kept them from seeing things as they really are and thinking about them intelligently, until they hopefully eventually do. It's a process of enlightening someone, that isn't always pleasant or genial. But it's the only way to handle this sort of nonsense-spouting. Plus, given how indoctinating our media and educational systems are, it's no wonder that so many people buy into this crap without realizing that it's crap. It's almost not their fault, even if it doesn't excuse them from being slammed when they express such crap.

When you've been led to believe that the world is flat, it's only natural that you're going to see things from a flat-earth perspective, and literally not understand the concept of horizons. And when you've been spoon-fed the crap that emanates from the very narrow band of "thinking" that pervades our political "center", in which anybody who's anybody writes for Time or Newsweek or the NY Times or WaPo op-ed pages or belongs to the CFR or Brookings or appears on Charlie Rose or Meet the Press or NPR, well, most people, until shown why they shouldn't, are going to assume that these people know what they're talking about, and that anyone ourside their ideological circle, either on the right or left, is therefore an unserious nutjob. Thus Joe Klein, Mark Halperin, George Will, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Fareek Zakaria, Fred Hiatt, David Brooks, etc., whether or not you agree with them, are nevertheless "serious" people. While David Sirota, Glenn Greenwald, Amy Goodman, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Paul Krugman, etc., are all far-left radicals.

Lazy, uncritical, unsophisticated and unenlightened thinking produce such nonsense. But he's smart, and will hopefully eventually come around. In the meantime, it has to be slammed down, but good, because it's pervasive, and I think dangerous, in its unthinkingness.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


The problem is that Nate is just wrong (4.00 / 4)
The experts have weighed in(IE the ones who predicted it, roubini and such) and they say that the people in charge are idiots who shouldn't be listened to.


http://transgendermom.blogspot....

That brings up an interesting point. (0.00 / 0)
I don't think Sirota's populist arguments would have nearly the same force if they weren't backed by some credible experts. Which says to me that Sirota is less anti-elitist than Silver, and probably Sirota himself, probably think. And that suggests that this whole argument is, substantially, only about rhetoric.

[ Parent ]
Nate Blew this One! (4.00 / 2)
Here's a link to my Open Left Diary entry where I posted a copy of my response to Nate Silver's poorly thought out post slinging nastygrams at David Sirota.  I closed with a suggestion that Nate should apologize to David.

http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

One of my key comments to Nate was that in his list of traits I thought he should have juxtaposed "incrementalist" on the "rational" side and "transformational" on the "radical" side. I like to think that Open Left is a site for "transformational progressives." Of course, Nate stacked the deck with the labels "rational" and "radical." If I picked labels for the two sets of traits I think it might be "mugwump" instead of "rational" and "robust" instead of "radical."

I also commented that many of the traits that Nate identifies with (conversational, battle of ideas, incrementalist) are in the zone of Democratic pitches that Drew Westen, in The Political Brain, argues kept the Democratic Party in the wilderness in Congress for a dozen years and let Dubya win two elections and wreak havoc on both the United States and the rest of the World.

Nate's a stone genius at crunching numbers creatively, but he would do well to suspend posting on policy matters until he decides to take the time to educate himself about each issue, including the critiques of Geithner that David called him out on.

I'm among the chorus that so far has found Geithner to be a disaster. But I don't dis Geithner because I hate Big Banks. I dis Geithner (and Obama) for not adopting transformational strategies to deal with the home mortgage loan crisis and the bank insolvency crisis. Do I know better than Geithner from my own background? Of course not! But Nouriel Roubini knows better than Geithner - in my judgment - and his analyses are just a mouse click away.

Roubini says bring back the Depression-era Home Mortgage Loan Corp to buy up the toxic assets, and stop shilly-shallying around, trying to stall while Wall Street biggies scramble to try to regain a solvent position; go ahead and take over the insolvent banks. (It doesn't have to be the "N" word ["nationalization"].) Just go ahead and bite the bullet and turn Morgan Stanley (if it's insolvent) over to the FDIC, or to a 21st century version of the Resolution Trust Corporation, which cleaned up the mess after the Savings and Loan debacle of the Reagan-Bush years.

Nate seems to think that any time anyone raises his voice, he's engaging in demagoguery and has lowered himself to the level of the lowest wingnut! Ridiculous! The progressive blogosphere has a settled and secure place in the reality based community, which distinguishes any passionate progressive plea from the horse puckey of false stereotypes and other lies that we find on any wingnut site.

Anyway, I was sorry to see Nate stray so far from his usual solid bearings. And I do hope that he will apologize to David.


RE: Straight White Men Selling Books on Cable TV Who are Threats to the Establishment (2.67 / 3)
1. Leave Michael Phelps out of this. Bongsmoking Olympians never hurt no one.

2. I just don't find your arguments very compelling. This is the kind of stuff i used to write on the college dems v. college republicans message board, back when i thought black and white were the only colors on the greyscale. Nate is a smart guy, his points aren't without merit. Moreover, your rhetoric, (are you seriously calling him an apologist for the Bush administration??)  is off-putting to the point that it makes me distrust your factual assertations. Also arrogance is never an attractive quality, even when you're right. Nate's history of hewing closely to empirical evidence though, and his evident sincerity, no matter how laughable they may seem to you, are much more relevant to me than macho histrionics from Top Gun. (Though, clearly, the best way to deal with these kinds of super-intense blog tiffs in the future is through areal combat -otherwise The Establishment will think we are gay.)

Anyway, thanks for elevating the conversation, Maverick. I hope the cold comfort of your empty rhetoric will provide solace for my orphaned children in the distopian future we were unable to prevent due to our obsession with pointless in-fighting.


"Also arrogance is never an attractive quality" (4.00 / 1)
I'm just sayin.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
not arrogant, funnee. big difrenz. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
No, not funny. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
ur right (0.00 / 0)
distopian futures are nothing to laugh about

[ Parent ]
However, macho histrionics are. Thanks. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
was that a bong? (4.00 / 1)
i thought he was just checking out a hummingbird feeder!


[ Parent ]
protest without a cause? (4.00 / 2)
[H]istory teaches that now is exactly the time for movements to pressure the government.

There is something deeply incoherent in the idea that David is advocating: If we admit from up front that we don't know (and it goes beyond our expertise to responsibly decide) what we want our government to do, how could it make sense to "pressure our government" to do anything?

Suppose I was trying to pressure NASA to put eight wheels on the next Mars rover, for some reason. Maybe I have a casual interest in engineering and I don't think six wheels is enough. You would rightly think I'm being silly, or worse. It would seem only sillier once I admitted that I don't really know all the issues that go into rover design, but that I just want eight wheels!

That would be exactly my position regarding the bailout/stimulus implementation. I have more than a passing interest in macroeconomics. It seems to me that nationalization would be better than just throwing money at the banks. But would it make sense for me to "pressure the government" regarding this issue? The question is the same as in the case of the rover: When I know that the NASA engineers know more than I do, and have every reason to think they're trying to succeed with their design, I realize that any pressure I apply might actually make the final design worse rather than better.

That doesn't mean that Big Brother should clap his hand over my mouth and prevent me from speaking. It means that I realize that I have a higher chance of being wrong than the experts who devote their lives to this stuff, so I try to learn more and shout less. There is a distressing lack of intellectual humility in the sentiment that no matter how ill-informed we are, we should elbow into policy decisions anyway. Before you do, ask yourself this question:

If tomorrow I were offered Geithner's position, or Obama's position, and given full responsibility of arranging this bailout/stimulus, would I take it? And if I did take it, how confident am I that I would do a better job than Geithner/Obama? For me the answers are "Hell NO!" and "15%". I'd be curious if anybody here would give significantly different answers. I'd also be curious if anybody here would give largely similar answers, but still thinks it makes sense to "pressure the government" to do things their own way.


If you don't know what you want, fine. (4.00 / 5)
Sit on your hands.

Personally I would like some sort of accountability when my government throws billions (or is it trillions?) of dollars at the people who created the meltdown. Accountability does not seem  like to much to ask.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
what does 'accountability' look like to you? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
That ground has been covered. (3.20 / 5)
Maybe you weren't here when the bailout was being debated? Guess not. If you want to educate yourself, look it up.

At any rate, it's not like I don't understand where you guys are coming from. Spork here readily admits he is too dumb to be a citizen, and besides it's hard work. Much easier to be a subject.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
hold on there (4.00 / 2)
Spork here readily admits he is too dumb to be a citizen

Um, what I said is that I have a deep interest in macroeconomics. I don't even have a bachelor's degree in it. My Ph.D. is in a tangentially related field. But I think I know enough to know how much I don't know. That sort of intellectual humility might be useful to you specifically, Sadie Baker, and to the Openleft community collectively.


[ Parent ]
You're the one who said: (4.00 / 2)
"If we admit from up front that we don't know (and it goes beyond our expertise to responsibly decide) what we want our government to do, how could it make sense to "pressure our government" to do anything?"

That's the posture of a subject, not a citizen. Or maybe just a "bottom" but then ... ew.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Traditional-style troll (0.00 / 0)
Do not feed.

[ Parent ]
Not So Much (4.00 / 9)
There is something deeply incoherent in the idea that David is advocating: If we admit from up front that we don't know (and it goes beyond our expertise to responsibly decide) what we want our government to do, how could it make sense to "pressure our government" to do anything?

But we don't "admit from up front that we don't know ... what we want our government to do."  To the contrary, we know that we want it to bail out main street, rather than Wall Street.  We know that bank shareholders and stockholders should take the hit, not taxpayers.  We know that people should be kept in their homes, with their mortgages written down.  We know that Galbraith, Krugman, Roubini and Stiglitz should be listened to, instead of the folks who got us into this mess.

Suppose I was trying to pressure NASA to put eight wheels on the next Mars rover, for some reason. Maybe I have a casual interest in engineering and I don't think six wheels is enough. You would rightly think I'm being silly, or worse. It would seem only sillier once I admitted that I don't really know all the issues that go into rover design, but that I just want eight wheels

Bad analogy, on two counts: (1) We're not advocating for something we came up with ourselves.  We're advocating for policies advanced by experts who are opposed to the thinking that got us into this mess. (2) We're not talking micro-management (8 wheels vs. 6) here.  We're talking fundamental orientation (robotic vs. manned exploration), for which the arguments are readily comprehensible by an informed, intelligent lay audience.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So you really want to be personally in charge of this? (4.00 / 3)
First of all, I've read Galbraith, Krugman, Roubini and Stiglitz. I hate to break it to you, but they don't agree on what to do in a case like this For example, the ones who still live don't agree on the issue of nationalization. Every smart economist has their own preferred strategy for doing this. The point is, the experts themselves don't know how to pick which experts have the best models. So you think you do? If there were a group of seemingly smart scientists (as far as you could tell) advocating for 8-wheeled rovers, would you then want to wade in and "apply pressure" in that controversy?

About the second alleged disanalogy: This is a case where we all agree about goals and are only debating optimal means. The goal is to generate an economic recovery and bring sustained prosperity to Americans (and others). I agree that in NASA, there are debates about ends: Is it science or education or capturing the public imagination or ...

The manned v. robotic debate depends very much on which of these ultimate goals NASA is supposed to accomplish, and that's a great thing to debate, and everyone's input is welcome. My point is, there is no debate about ends with the economic recovery package. We all want the same thing from it.

Now, if you think that you (and not our government and its expert advisers) know how to get it, I hope you examine where all this confidence comes from.

I'm not saying that there is no space for advocacy from laypeople. Maybe there are some aspects which are debates about ends - for example: Should we see intrinsic value in the US having a manufacturing industry? Is having one worth sacrificing some prosperity?

Even regarding means, there might be some value in public advocacy of certain strategies. If those strategies are shunned simply because of fear that they would be unpopular, and not because of their demerits, vocal advocates can provide cover for the government. I think this is good, in that it can increase their options.

Finally, if there's reason to think that the government's ends are different from everyone else's, it's time to speak up. But I don't think that applies in this case. Obama has every reason to want to make this work. He and his party are fucked otherwise.

But it seems to me that the sort of pressure on the government being advocated by Sirota is none of these. He's a layman who is hoping to gather a posse to outshout Geithner/Obama. That's fine to do when we debate ends. But when it's a debate about optimal means, I think that a pre-requisite is knowledge (or at least strong evidence) that you're right and they're wrong. Do you have that evidence?


[ Parent ]
No! (4.00 / 5)
So you really want to be personally in charge of this?  

That's exactly not what I wrote:

(2) We're not talking micro-management (8 wheels vs. 6) here.  We're talking fundamental orientation (robotic vs. manned exploration), for which the arguments are readily comprehensible by an informed, intelligent lay audience.

I'm well aware that that disagreements occur at all levels.  But one can make a useful mega-distinction here between the neoliberal tweakers and all the rest.  You don't have to be a macro-economist to argue that we ought to steer clear of the neoliberal tweakers and do something from the other camp.

This is a direct parallel to the manned/robotic debate, and it's what an informed lay audience is eminent qualified to weigh in on.

The fact that you ignore my argument for something easier to refute is not a good sign, IMHO.

About the second alleged disanalogy: This is a case where we all agree about goals and are only debating optimal means. The goal is to generate an economic recovery and bring sustained prosperity to Americans (and others). I agree that in NASA, there are debates about ends: Is it science or education or capturing the public imagination or ...

The manned v. robotic debate depends very much on which of these ultimate goals NASA is supposed to accomplish, and that's a great thing to debate, and everyone's input is welcome. My point is, there is no debate about ends with the economic recovery package. We all want the same thing from it.

This is just more of the same progressive elitist denialism.  In fact, we don't agree on the ends.  The elitists say "save the bankers and wall street", the populists say, "save the homeowners, the taxpayers and mainstreet."

The difference between the neoliberal financially-polarized finance capital-subsidizing model and the social democratic New Deal model is a terribly profound one--manned vs. robotic, not 6-wheels vs. 8.  People have been debating it for decades now.  And now that the neoliberals have produced an epic fail, they still want to insist that it's too complicated for all the rest of us (including ignorant Nobel Laureates like Stiglitz and Krugman) to understand.

"Who are you going to believe?" they ask us, amidst the ruins of a global economy in shambles, "Me or your lying eyes?"

I'll take my lying eyes.  Thank you very much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Economics is not a science - let's focus on aspects we understand (4.00 / 1)
I think a lot of people operate under the assumption that economics is a rigorous science.  According to this assumption, we should give significant credence to the experts in the field.  After all, one could hardly argue against consulting quantum physicists when the issue pertains to quantum physics.

However, economics is not a hard science, nor is it remotely close.  There are simply too many independent variables.  More importantly, it is nearly impossible to run empirical tests of the various models.   Because of this, one could reasonably argue that no one has any particularly good ideas regarding how to rescue the economy.  Yours could well be better than mine, and both of us could be better than Geithner.  Or not.  We'll never know, because it's not a hard science.  

So what to do?  We should advocate vocally for our desired outcome in the areas that we do understand.  One such area would be the top income tax bracket.  Another might be the minimum wage, or the maximum unemployment rate we're willing to accept before we start paying people to dig holes in the ground and fill them in again.  Personally, I'm in favor of higher taxes during the booms and the bubbles - for if there's one thing we've learned about markets, there will ALWAYS be bubbles - and spending the accumulated funds on infrastructure, science, etc. when the bubble bursts.  Some regulations to keep companies from becoming too big to fail would also be nice.  

If we focus our fire on these concrete issues that we understand, we know we'll get something useful, whereas on the bailout, we could easily be wrong.  Anyone could. That's the point.


[ Parent ]
Tsk Tsk... (0.00 / 0)
Top Gun... Really?  Sorry David, you missed the boat...  

HERE'S your pop culture reference of the day... and one I think that fits well (plus its a great song).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

(Of course for the stupid people out there, this post is mostly joking... the only non-joke aspect is that I think the song and video linked on here are really awesome! ;-))


Anyone who accuses Sitrota of being a (3.43 / 7)
demagogue because we won't defer to the right wingers Obama has hired, is not worth reading in my view.

My blog  

Is this about anything substantive (4.00 / 1)
or is this much ado about nothing?

For the one millionth time, I think many people have substantive disagreements with Obama.  Most prominent among these are the belief that the stimulus package is too small, and that the administration does not fully understand the problems with globalization.

These are not trivial disagreements.  They have nothing to do with "style" or being "tough enough".  They are about very real things, and the notion that we should be quiet about them, particularly when you consider the consequences involved, strikes me as absurd.

I have little interest in some of the slings and arrows that are being exchanged - they serve primilarily to obscure what the differences are.  I do have an interest in debating the policy choices we face.  

And I see no reason to be quiet about them.


You're Half-Right, IMHO (0.00 / 0)
Yes, there are big substantive differences here, and it's easy to get lost in the weeds.  But the substantive differences are grounded in profoundly different worldviews, and it's deeply misleading to ignore this background dimension, as it colors everything else.

It's walk-and-chew-gum time once again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
that Nate can only write what he wrote because he is primarly interested in the political style of the discoure, and not it's substance.

In fact, when you write "its easy to get lost in the weeds" you describe exactly what is happening.


[ Parent ]
I Agree Re Nate (4.00 / 1)
I think Nate's out of his depth and deeply confused.  But I think David's throwing some light on what's going on.

Maybe he's also throwing more heat than I would as well.  But right now we've got a greater problem with lack of heat than with the overabundance.  And David does have a solid record of switching to a very measured, even complimentary sort of discourse when something positive gets accomplished.  I have every reason to believe he will do so again, if he can help get Obama's direction changed on these core issues.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
werd (0.00 / 1)
we r all brethren y'all. radicals, progressives, Obama-likers, Obama-skeptics. whatevs. we need each other to, like, yell at and bounce ideas off each other and stuff. lets just wait a little while before we all go divorcing everybody.  

[ Parent ]
most sane comment in this thread. (0.00 / 0)
look, Sirota needs to realize that he is a loud bombastic freak. (i mean this in the best way possible, truly). We are a community of leftists who disagree a lot- that is truly the beauty if the sphere- but Sirota's tone just isn't helpful. (nor is Silver's obsession with calling Sirota out). Silver is singularly the best analyst we have when it comes to raw data- and he is a liberal progressive. sure, lets disagree about specifics- but i think this kind of discourse takes it way too far... lets respect each other for both our talents and weaknesses.

our allies don't deserve this level of vapid anger.

the funk can move and the funk can remove- dig?


[ Parent ]
the problem with Silver's rational elitism (4.00 / 5)
First, employing binary language like Silver does to discuss differences within Progressivism is simplistic and (perhaps unintentionally) dishonest. you can't reduce progressives to two camps of any kind, especially two named optimistic and pessimistic. it is polarizing language,from someone who calls himself a rational incrementalist!
Second, his approach overlooks huge segments of history, and seems more of a stereotype than a study.
Third, he doesn't understand, and therefore dismisses, marxist critique.

FUCK HIM. Why spend more than 2 paraghraphs (4.00 / 3)
on this elitist asshole? I'm 49, I've been hearing the STFU you DFH since ... we lost to Nixon cuz he trashed a WWII bomber pilot as weak?

Here is what I say to Democrats - IF YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH, OR COWED ENOUGH, OR SPINELESS ENOUGH

TO SHUT UP, THEN YOU DESERVE RAYGUN AND YOU DESERVE BUSH.

and, oh, by the way - he isn't ivy, but, he's university of chicago 30 something white boy who thinks the elites should have unfettered by us peee-ons decision making authority .......... well, at least he isn't betraying his yuppie fuck social class.

rmm.  

It is too full o' the milk of human kindness To catch the nearest way


Really, U of Chicago? That's terrible. Why would we (0.00 / 0)
listen to anyone from the Hayek/Friedman School of Flim Flam?

[ Parent ]
yeah cause everyone is completely shaped by thier education. (0.00 / 0)
i went to the Newschool, so i own all of you.

the funk can move and the funk can remove- dig?

[ Parent ]
enough with the "everyone has a right to an opinion" bs. (4.00 / 3)
Everyone has a right to an opinion and a right to make their case, whether they have a fancy title behind their name, or whether they have - or haven't - been involved in politics. That's what democracy is all about - all people should have a right to make their case and have their case treated with respect (though, as an aside, I do find the sheer level of chutzpah amazing among people with zero experience on campaigns or in organizing/movement building nonetheless firing off such declarative orders about what a campaign or a movement should and shouldn't do).

everyone has a "right" to an opinion (in a legal sense), but not every opinion is valid (in an epistemic sense).  the right to an opinion doesn't justify having the opinion and invalid opinions should / must be sidelined.

this is not to say that nate silver's opinion has no validity or should not be treated with respect, but that the constant throwing about of "everyone has a right to an opinion" is just meaningless claptrap.

http://tinyurl.com/bmyfk7


Is it really necessary (0.00 / 0)
for liberals/progressives/Democrats to get into circular firing squad position DAILY?

We used to practice every election cycle.  That seemed to be enough to perfect our technique.

Regardless of whether Silver's terminology is fair (it isn't, but neither is much of the terminology on this site directed at the DLC, Clintons, and Obama cabinet), he is stating a basic, obvious conflict - between the Obama administration and Democratic establishment, who are free-market, bipartisan, center to center-right "pragmatic" tinkerers, and a wide spectrum of commentators and activists who believe that, ideology, the gravity of the current crisis, or seizing the political moment mandates bolder, more ideological politics.

The process of persuasion isn't likely to be helped EITHER by Nate drawing oversimplied charts and labelling people "radical" OR by claiming that his arguments are McCarthyite or Bushite fear-mongering.  

Republicans self-destruct only when they suffer a loss.  Democrats live and breathe self-destruction.  


Except ... (4.00 / 4)
there is no destruction here.

This is a teaching moment, and kudos to David, Paul and yes, even Nate for seizing it. These kinds of conversations make us a stonger movement, not a weaker one.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
How so? (0.00 / 0)
Let's start with Nate's original post.  The way I read it is that he is part of the 99.99999% of the population who is too ignorant to figure out the intricacies involved in solving the banking/financial mess, and so we should accept the judgment of the experts in the Obama administation.  He says that "movements" shouldn't drive the debate.

It's a pretty unhelpful comment - in that there is an obvious overlap between movement goals and expert opinion.  If, as an illustration, you look to the Republican talking points on the stimulus, you will find plenty of examples of people promoting ideology with absolutely no expert support.  This is happening far less, if at all, on the left - most of the bolder moves advocated by the left have significant, and sometimes majority, support among experts.  And by expert, I think Silver means "people with advanced degress in a relevant field who have spent years studying or working with these issues."

Sirota's reply is equally unhelpful - he attacks the concept of "expert opinion" as a rephrasing of "beltway elites" and calls Silver elitist, even going so far as to say that experts like Krugman and Reich are marginalized, and don't qualify as "experts" in Silver's view.  

Basically Silver presented a false dichotomy (experts v. activists) and Sirota responded with a different version of the same false dichotomy. They got personal about a conflict that doesn't even really exist (that is not to say that there isn't a conflict between the views of the insiders in the Obama administration and many people, but casting the debate as a choice between the unwashed masses or noble populists, on the one side, and the brilliant minds at the helm or the elitist theives, on the other, is a complete waste of time).

That's not productive and not making anyone or anything stronger.


[ Parent ]
Movements are not experts (0.00 / 0)
This I think distills the real issue to its essentials: Are "movements" of non-experts themselves experts? I think the answer is obvious. Consider the movement that advocates ignoring all CO2 emission restrictions. It's composed of a bunch of people with various motives, some sincere and others cynical, who are united around an issue. Then they find their own "experts" to parrot their conclusions and provide "evidence." We may think these "experts" are a laughingstock, but remember: they make sense to the movement! They see them as intellectual martyrs who are taking on the system.

So it sounds like you joined a movement as well. Your movement coalesced around political goals. Now it asks you to advocate for a particular implementation of the stimulus package. Why follow? Do you think that this particular group of laymen suddenly outsmart Geithner/Obama? They will cite their favorite experts, and to be fair, many of these are very smart and perfectly legit. But there are also very smart and perfectly legit experts who disagree with them.

If you feel competent to mix it up with the experts - for example, if you found mistakes in Gethner/Obama's plan, then join the debate about that. Many have. But one thing that would be a very silly view is that your take on this should match what your "movement" wants you to think. Your movement doesn't know better than experts, and if it's lobbing bombs at the decision-makers, you have no reason to think that this will improve the recovery package we'll get. In fact, as Nate Silver correctly observes, it might make it worse, because it invites counter-movements to lob their own bombs, and the whole process will have to be reset to appease political and not practical motives.

I want a plan that works, not a plan passes the political litmus test of some organized shouting mob of non-experts. You'd be fooling yourself if you thought that you make things better by shouting along with that mob.


[ Parent ]
Movements can be informed by experts (4.00 / 3)
Real movements are complex coalitions between experts, common people, organizations, multiple (often conflicting) spokesmen, etc.  And at best they have some structure.  Think of the "movement" for the Equal Rights Amemendment, for example.  That was well informed by "experts."

You are making a false dichotomy, here.  

But movements do have to "convince" while "educating" a large number of people.  I prefer that.  We just don't have the structures or systems to do it effectively right now.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Expert (4.00 / 1)
has a rough objective meaning.

It isn't always easy to determine who is an expert, but generally someone with an advanced degree, or a career of experience in the relevant topic, published peer-reviewed papers, etc., should be considered an expert, and those who don't have those backgrounds should not be considered experts (eg, most climate change skeptics aren't publishing in climatology).  

There are some problematical experts - for example Thomas Sowell is so deeply involved in propaganda that he is suspect.  

The question here seems to be what the role of nonexperts is in a situation where there is a legitimate diversity of expert opinion, a dire situation, and political strategizing to do.

A "movement" nonexpert person can quite legitimately campaign for his solution, especially if he or she is seeking the goal of making a preferred solution more politically viable.  My personal view is this is what Sirota is trying to do.  However, if no expert opinion supports his nonexpert view, I would think that this approach isn't helpful, and I don't think that Sirota's views lack expert support.  

A "movement" nonexpert person can also express a policy preference, among equally supportable positions.  For example, I can say that I prefer a larger stimulus on the basis of the added benefit that it will immediately help people in need, quite apart from the more complex question of whether it is necessary to jump start the economy.  But the size of the stimulus, as long as we are debating the bill as stimulus, would be limited by the outer limits of expert opinion.

There is also the question of the results of elections, polls, and democracy.  For example, I think it is fair to say that Obama wasn't elected to cut taxes for business. If he presented a stimulus bill that was heavy of business tax cuts, there is an accountability issue, even if, in his expert opinion, it is the best course.

Silver says that we should trust Obama because he has incentive to succeed.  But, doesn't that apply to anyone who is invested in the success of his adminsitration?  There may be some members of a socialist movement who have the same perverse incentives as the Republicans - to court failure for opportunism - but that isn't Sirota.  

The point, which I don't think you've addressed, is that there is overlap between movement folks and "experts" and a role for both, without demonizing each other.  Brad DeLong, for example, is a free-trader who likes the idea of temporarily nationalizing banks, which is something that some left folks want for broader policy reasons. If the "movement" voices were advocating completely irresponsible, unsupportable opinions, then it might be time to tell them to STFU.  But there isn't anything wrong with expressing a supportable opinion or policy preference in a democracy.  There is a problem with advocating for solutions that are not fact-based, and the reality is that with these complicated questions, "fact-based" means supported by expert opinion.  


[ Parent ]
Or to say it more briefly (0.00 / 0)
There is a conflict between the "status quo" solutions and approaches advocated by the adminstration and bolder, more partisan approaches.  But, since there are experts (even establishment experts like Krugman and Reich) and nonexperts on both sides of that divide, it doesn't make sense for it to be phrased as a war between the masses and the elites.  It results in a personal flame-throwing war, calling each other DFHs and elitists, instead of figuring out what is wisest and politically viable.

[ Parent ]
movements are expressions of human need (4.00 / 1)
The question of whether to continue to pad corporate bonuses or expand the social welfare safety net is not a technical matter.  It is a human question of who I stand with -- the rich or the poor.

Yes, arguments can be made about the results of one type of spending vs. another.  But my bottom line is that I stand with the working class, however it is modernly defined.  You want to call that Marxist?  Feel free.

Republicans trying to Karl Marx bait Obama during the campaign did more to advance the popularity of socialism than anything socialists have done in the last 30 years.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Close The Vault. (4.00 / 2)
It took two years for a bank teller with a bad gambling habit to get caught stealing money. It was done by the teller replacing it with new money from the vault. But one day the Teller was hospitalized in an auto accident and the tellers replacement discovered the theft. The government is now taking money out of the vault to cover up years of spending money that it did not have. It might be called embezzlement if the vault door was closed and the American public looked at the books.

what i found most interesting about Nate's post (4.00 / 2)
was tht he said the "rational progressives" traced their roots to the enlightenment, you know the people that brought us the american and french revolutions. He never bothers to mention those two very radical overthrows of the then powers that be, the status quo.

So when I read his post I gave it little weight because it was devoid of th ehistorical facts that it was supposedly based on.


Who is Nate Silver? (4.00 / 1)
I've been writing and blogging for 4 years and I missed this guy.  I guess it's because after reading Dean Baker's blog, Sirota, Krugman, Naomi Klein, James Galbraith, Vanity Fair's Stiglitz, Michael Hudson and anybody from U of Missouri's economics department, gosh, I guess I never got around to this guy.  

dude- you are missing out (0.00 / 0)
regardless of the current legitimate policy spats, Silver runs fivethirtyeight.com- possibly the most intelligent epicenter of polling analysis that has ever existed. its amazing- you should click over asap.

the funk can move and the funk can remove- dig?

[ Parent ]
He's the guy who taught numbers to f*ck nt (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Defining Progressive (0.00 / 0)
Some research (a opposed to a chart with two columns) from the Commonweal Institute about the definition of Progressive:

http://commonwealinstitute.org...

http://commonwealinstitute.org...


You ARE a dangerous Demagogue. (0.00 / 0)
You are the worst I've seen of this movement.  You regularly misrepresent the links you present, you uncritically regurgitate the latest beltway spin without consideration of sources, and you are just generally an internet bully.

Nate has your number.


"Dangerous" | 98 comments
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