The Party of Psychopaths

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 13:31


For years, I've occasionally discussed the notion, brought up by others, that sociopathy (aka psychopathy) and/or some form(s) of personality disorder might provide a basic framework for understanding the politics of conservatism or the modern Republican Party.  I've always taken the position that this is overdrawn.  The percentage of sociopaths and sufferers of personality disorders in the population is quite low--in the low single digits.

It seemed to me that much better explanations rested on more widespread phenomena such as rightgwing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation--present to some extent in all of us, but more concentrated on the right, and among the more politically involved.  It's not that there weren't plenty of sociopaths and others, such as NPDs (narcissistic personality disorders), running around.  There were, there were!  It's just that those individuals were fundamentally opportunists.  They were present in movement conservatism and the GOP because it offered such a hospitable environment for them, but they were not the architects of the environment.

Now however, with the conservative environment in ruins, it seems that the time may well be ripe for the complete sociopathic takeover, as the half-life of GOP lies and rationalizations approaches the vanishing point, and calls for violence rise accordingly.  At the same time, a recent BBC documentary, offered as a fund-drive premium at the local Pacifica radio station, has given me a new slant on the potential centrality of sociopathy, not just to movement conservatism, but to the logic of late capitalism as a whole.

Paul Rosenberg :: The Party of Psychopaths
The 2001 film, A Beautiful Mind portrayed the life struggles of mathematician John Nash, one of the principle architects of game theory, from the individualist perspective of a brilliant man fighting a lonely battle against his own dark demons.  But the three-part 2007 BBC documentary, "The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom", which was recently offered as a fund-drive premium at Pacifica's KPFK in Los Angeles, takes a very different view, focusing less on Nash, the man, than on the role that his creation played in leading us toward a conception of freedom that's little more than a cage.

Although Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic, the model of consciousness his work best applies to is that of a quite different mental defect--that of the sociopath, one who is completely normal in outward appearance, whose only defect lies at the core of their being, in the lack of what might be called a conscience, at least for shorthand sake.  I'll explain the connections as we go along.

Wikipedia describes the beginning of Part 1 of The Trap as follows:

1. "Fuck You Buddy" (11 March 2007)

In this episode, Curtis examines the rise of game theory during the Cold War and the way in which its mathematical models of human behaviour filtered into economic thought. The programme traces the development of game theory with particular reference to the work of John Nash, who believed that all humans were inherently suspicious and selfish creatures that strategised constantly. Using this as his first premise, Nash constructed logically consistent and mathematically verifiable models, for which he won the Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences, commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics. He invented system games reflecting his beliefs about human behaviour, including one he called "Fuck Your Buddy" (later published as "So Long Sucker"), in which the only way to win was to betray your playing partner, and it is from this game that the episode's title is taken.

These games were internally coherent and worked correctly as long as the players obeyed the ground rules that they should behave selfishly and try to outwit their opponents, but when RAND's analysts tried the games on their own secretaries, they instead chose not to betray each other, but to cooperate every time. This did not, in the eyes of the analysts, discredit the models, but instead proved that the secretaries were unfit subjects.

What was not known at the time was that Nash was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, and, as a result, was deeply suspicious of everyone around him-including his colleagues-and was convinced that many were involved in conspiracies against him. It was this mistaken belief that led to his view of people as a whole that formed the basis for his theories. Footage of an older and wiser Nash was shown in which he acknowledges that his paranoid views of other people at the time were false.

How does all this relate to sociopathy?  First, let's explain what sociopathy is: it's not like any other form of mental disease, indeed, superficially, the sociopath appears perfectly normal.  There is no surface disturbance in sociopathy.  The sociopath appears perfectly sane in the moment. Rather, what is disturbed--even, one might say, missing--is the core.  And hence the name of the initial classic study, The Mask of Sanity, the fifth edition of which is available free online in PDF form here.

The Mask of Sanity does not provide a lucid overview of its subject matter.  It is, instead, a work of groping through a large mass of baffling first-hand examples.  And yet, precisely because of its origins in the immediacy of the effort to understand a baffling phenomena, it retains an importance that rewards the effort to wade through its somewhat rambling style.  With that in mind, here is a relatively brief passage that gives some broader sense of the whole in a relatively short space:

Let us then assume, as a hypothesis, that the psychopath's disorder, or defect, or his difference from the whole or normal or integrated personality consists of an unawareness and a persistent lack of ability to become aware of what the most important experiences of life mean to others. By this is not meant an acceptance of the arbitrarily postulated values of any particular theology, ethics, esthetics, or philosophic system, or any special set of mores or ideologies, but rather the common substance of emotion or purpose, or whatever else one chooses to call it, from which the various loyalties, goals, fidelities, commitments, and concepts of honor and responsibility of various groups and various people are formed.??Let us assume that this dimension of experience which gives to all experience its substance or reality is one into which the psychopath does not enter. Or, to be more accurate, let us say that he enters, but only so superficially that his reality is thin or unsubstantial to the point of being insignificant. Let us say that, despite his otherwise perfect functioning, the major emotional accompaniments are absent or so attenuated as to count for little. Of course he is unaware of this, just as everyone is bound, except theoretically, to be unaware of that which is out of his scale or order or mode of experience. If we grant the existence of a far-reaching and persistent blocking, absence, deficit, or dissociation of this sort, we have all that is needed, at the present level of our inquiry, to account for the psychopath.

The end result is that sociopaths live life in shallow, disconnected episodes. The lack of depth entails a lack of continuity as well.  And there is certainly no learning:

Without suffering or
enjoying in significant degree the integrated
emotional consequences of experience, the psychopath will not learn from it to modify and direct his activities as other men whom we call sane modify and direct theirs. He will lack the real driving impulses which sustain and impel others toward their various widely differing but at least subjectively important goals. He will naturally lack insight into how he differs from other men, for of course he does not differ from other men as he sees them. It is entirely impossible for him to see another person from the aspect of major affective experience, since he is blind to this order of things or blind in this mode of awareness.

Returning to Wikipedia's description of The Trap:

As the 1960s became the 1970s, the theories of Laing and the models of Nash began to converge, producing a widespread popular belief that the state (a surrogate family) was purely and simply a mechanism of social control which calculatedly kept power out of the hands of the public. Curtis shows that it was this belief that allowed the theories of Hayek to look credible, and underpinned the free-market beliefs of Margaret Thatcher, who sincerely believed that by dismantling as much of the British state as possible-and placing former national institutions into the hands of public shareholders-a form of social equilibrium would be reached. This was a return to Nash's work, in which he proved mathematically that if everyone was pursuing their own interests, a stable, yet perpetually dynamic, society could result.

This was also, of course, a good description of Greenspans belief underpinning his enthusiasm for financial deregulation, thinking that greedy speculators would create a stable, yet perpetually dynamic financial sector.  If one has no inner sense of long-term meaning or purpose, then it's clearly impossible to conceive of government having any such purpose.  Why not leave everything to a bunch of riverboat gamblers, aided by a theory that says everything will be just fine?

So, that's one side of the story--how sociopathy and "free markets" are deeply interconnected.  But there are also just a whole lot of sociopaths coming out of the woodwork, too.

Take, for example, the renewed prominence of that dynamic duo, Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich.  Digby recently mused on a Matt Bai profile of Newt, and what struck me most of her musings was this flashback:

According to fellow conservative Susan Molinari, Gingrich believed he was a worldwide revolutionary:
    Molinari paints Gingrich as nothing short of an incompetent, delusional megalomaniac. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions. . Her behind-the-scenes description of last summer's failed coup attempt against the speaker reveals a world of ruthless backstabbingand deft double-crossing that would make Machiavelli proud. Molinari says Gingrich compared himself to Napoleon, FDR, Churchill, and Eisenhower and was overwhelmed by his own grandiosity. When Gingrich's four top henchmen, among them Molinari's husband, Bill Paxon, Republican congressman from Buffalo, NY., arranged an "intervention" to tell the speaker that he had to shape up, Gingrich dissolved into a rage. "People all over the world are listening to us, watching what we are doing. I'm at the center of a worldwide revolution," he huffed, turning to Paxon, adding, "You will never understand that, Bill."

Was there ever a better example of a man who felt so little of life's meaning?  He didn't deliver divorce papers to his cancer-stricken wife because he was a sadist.  Sadists have far more feelings than sociopaths do.  Not nice feelings, to be sure.  But, you know, human, all to human, nonetheless.  Newt can't really feel anything unless it involves the superhuman, the titanic.  Bill Paxon was simply too insubstantial for Newt to relate to.  Only world historical figures were real to him--even though he consistently and extravagantly misunderstood them, too.  After all, to actually understand them, he would have to understand the real-life worlds in which they lived--a world that for him was nothing but shadows.

And that is the problem with a party of sociopaths.  We and our sufferings simply aren't real to them.  If you're a sociopath, the only real significance of a catastrophe like Hurricane Katrina is that it can help illustrate your talking points.  Bobby Jindal's casual lying about Katrina is just one more indication of the psychopathic ethos that now permeates the GOP.  Ditto Michael Steele's preposterous lie that government never created a single job.  Casual or extravagant lies mean nothing, because the hard truths of other people's lives mean nothing: they are not real, they are merely insubstantial shadow people.

So, naturally, joking about killing them--or even thier President--comes quite naturally.  It's all a part of the psychopathic package.  It kind of makes Bushian authoritarian faith-based mayhem look like the good old days.  Except, thank God, these guys are not in power.


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Another trait of psychopath's that I would consider eminently relevant (4.00 / 1)
is extreme recklessness due to an insatiable need for stimulation. A psychopath I knew personally would always speed up in the most dangerous spots in the road. Sound familiar?

Right, It's All Related (4.00 / 2)
When you don't feel anything deeply, cheap thrills are the only kind of thrills there are. And thrills are pretty much all you can feel.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Distorting Nash. (4.00 / 2)
Paul Rosenberg says...

Although Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic, the model of consciousness his work best applies to is that of a quite different mental defect--that of the sociopath...

Mr. Rosenberg presents the life-work of John Forbes Nash as if winning by sociopathic manipulation was the main element of the games that Nash describes, but in fact Nash's most famous contribution to the mathematical theory of games was "Nash equilibrium," which won him the the John von Neumann Theory Prize in 1978, and later the Nobel Prize in Economics, together with John Harsanyi and Reinhard Selten, specifically "for their pioneering analysis of equilibria in the theory of non-cooperative games."

If each player has chosen a strategy and no player can benefit by changing his or her strategy while the other players keep theirs unchanged, then the current set of strategy choices and the corresponding payoffs constitute a Nash equilibrium.

In this situation, the only way to avoid losing is by accepting a stalemate with the other players, and trying to win at any price results in a loss.

So it would be more accurate to say that John Forbes Nash's most characteristic and important work was a demonstration of the futility of trying to win at all costs by sociopathic manipulation, and the frequent necessity of peacefully co-existing with other players.

The theory of equilibria was the main event in the mathematical career of John Forbes Nash,  and the board-game "So Long Sucker" was a relatively insignificant sideshow.


[ Parent ]
While this, I'm sure, is true... (4.00 / 4)
The theory of equilibria was the main event in the mathematical career of John Forbes Nash,  and the board-game "So Long Sucker" was a relatively insignificant sideshow. --  Jacob Freeze

This I have a problem with...
So it would be more accurate to say that John Forbes Nash's most characteristic and important work was a demonstration of the futility of trying to win at all costs by sociopathic manipulation, and the frequent necessity of peacefully co-existing with other players. -- JF

Unless one defines peace in the negative -- that is, as the state of being when further dominance options become untenable -- I find it hard to credit Nash with what you seem to be framing in the bolded quote above as a social positive.  
I haven't much knowledge of Nash's theory and I'm assuming you do, but everything you offered about the equilibrium theory seems to suggest Mexican stand-off rather than peaceful co-existence.
The language you used or quoted: "If...no player can benefit" and "the only way to avoid losing", simply doesn't imply a roadmap for peace so much as the dead-end of MAD.      

[ Parent ]
You're right. (4.00 / 3)
I think we're both right, and your reference to Mutually Assured Destruction is exactly on point.

The difference between us is probably that I think a Mexican stand-off is about the best we could have achieved at the beginning of the Cold War, and whatever the difference between a stand-off and peaceful co-existence may be, the difference between either of them and nuclear war was infinitely greater.

So I interpret Nash's contribution to strategic thinking in the Fifties as positive, in the sense that it introduced a tendency to recognize unwinnable situations, rather than attempting to destroy the Soviets by a first strike, or otherwise.

Generals like Curtis Lemay were by no means resigned to coexistence of any kind with the Soviet Union, and the particular set of reports about the Cuban Missile Crisis that I happen to believe portray Lemay and Dean Acheson and others as promoters of a more aggressive strategy than Kennedy actually pursued.

In 1952 and 1960 there was a very aggressive clique of Pentagon and State Department holdovers from WWII, and there wasn't really much of a theoretical framework to use against them, until the theory of equilibria was invoked to demonstrate the existence of unwinnable games, and stalemates in a larger context than chess.

So I think Nash performed a valuable service for all of us.  From the standpoint of liberals and progressives in 2009, it seems self-evident that nuclear war was unwinnable, but that didn't mean it was easy to win an argument with a national hero like Curtis Lemay in 1961.

But McGeorge Bundy and Robert MacNamara were highly familiar with Nash equilibrium, whatever their other failings may have been, and Nash's theory gave them a deeper basis to oppose Lemay and Acheson at a very critical moment in the history of the planet.


[ Parent ]
You did a good job of (4.00 / 1)
putting Nash's theory in the context of its most important application.  Of course I wasn't trying to diminish Nash's contribution, just defending the qualitative difference between peace and the stasis reached at the limits of aggression.
The fact that those limits weren't always regarded as obvious was well worth your pointing out and the fact that Nash's framework was used as leverage against extreme advocates of military force was certainly, as you say, "a valuable service for all of us."
One day though humankind will have to get to a point where we reject an existence predicated on survival mechanisms at the edges of brinkmanship and embrace the true meaning of peace.  Otherwise, as Chomsky pointed out in a recent interview in which he discussed hegemony and its threat to mankind's survival, there may not be a tool of leverage against those forces:
"Unfortunately, if you look at the factors that surround hegemony, the short term goals to maximize profit, to increase control of the world and so on, and ask how those goals will play out, turns out they do threaten survival," said Chomsky.
"And, it's a deep problem because the decisions are not irrational within the framework of the institutions in which they're being taken," he continued. "But, they may be utterly irrational as compared to the likelihood that my grandchildren will have a world to live in."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/...

[ Parent ]
A good piece (4.00 / 4)
I would like to see "The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom." It does not seem to be available on Netflix or on the BBC site. I will keep looking and check the library.

The party of sociopaths is given plenty of time in our media to spin their heartless view of the world. They are not in power, but they have not yet been totally discredited. The Beltway Villagers admire these creatures. The less empathy the more the admiration.


Sociopaths are glamorous because they are decisive. (4.00 / 9)
It looks like "leadership" to people who never look beneath the hood, like our beltway media.

But the reason they are decisive is because just they don't care what happens to other people, so they have fewer variables to worry about. Real leaders agonize over what happens to other people.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You are right (4.00 / 3)
What is the difference between Adolph Hitler or Josef Stalin and a mass murderer?  When the truly sociopathic get hold of a society the damage runs into tens of millions dead.  

What is interesting and scary at the same time is that W almost lost the Presidency in 2000 specifically because he did not give a s*** about the death penalty.  People in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota were turned off and turned to Gore at the end of the campaign because he appeared blood thirsty.  They were right.

Lincoln certainly agonized over the fate of individuals.  He fits your profile of "a real leader."  Not W.  I'll pick Abe every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


[ Parent ]
It's available (4.00 / 1)
But only if you're willing to go off the reservation into the land of bit torrent.  P2P may spell the end of intellectual property and all those careers dependent on it, but in the meantime, it's an amazingly fertile world for the curious but impoverished mind.

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the P2P tip (0.00 / 0)
So far I have not been willing to use P2P software. I am concerned about giving an Internet Application read write access to my hard drive.

The concept of mass redistribution is great, but I am going to wait until I am more convinced the security architecture is in place. I know I am at risk any time I get on the Internet, but I feel the current risks are manageable.

I believe one of the big companies like Microsoft, Google,  Apple, NetFlix, Hulu, Nintendo or Electronic Arts will eventually develop a set top box that uses P2P distribution to reduce bandwidth and hosting costs while isolating the box from the home network.

That wont fix my lack of access to "The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom." If the owners that don't want to make it easy for me to watch, I will wait.


[ Parent ]
Remember "Deep Thoughts from Jack Handy?" (4.00 / 6)
One of them was "the best things in life are free, which kinda makes you wonder what's wrong with them."

And there is something to this. "The market" as an institution is inherently sociopathic in that the things that are most valuable to regular people, like love, family, loyalty and community have zero dollars attached to them and therefore zero value to the market. Therefore a political party dedicated to the market above all, seeking to make the market the foremost decision-maker in human affairs will, naturally, be sociopathic in its effects.

Montani semper liberi


hear hear (4.00 / 1)
...or, in internet-speak: "Here here".

The Rational Actor Model of neoliberal economics fame is a prescription for sociopathy.

The RAM doesn't work descriptively (all four premises of the RAM have been demonstrated to be false or incomplete), but it does work prescriptively. Corporations are designed to be rational  (as in maximizing wealth, not as in being logical).  And who best to run such rational organizations? Sociopaths. Rationalized organizations select for rationality.

But it's not just selection; it's training. Considerable resources have been devoted to teaching everyone that it's a dog-eat-dog world; that only maximizing your own greed leads to social good; that people you could help are pulling you down.

At the same time, though, when looking at what's happening with the GOP these days, I'd have to say it's largely a product of what the Democrats are doing, which is a sort of filtration process. As the Democratic Party wins over more converts by shifting rightward, what's left in the Republican Party is the very pure essence.


[ Parent ]
What a relief! (4.00 / 3)
They seem crazy because they ARE crazy. I'm glad that we've finally got that settled.

The real puzzle is why something so obvious has been ignored for so long. I mean, I've always thought that Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh were the Castor and Pollux of pathological self-infatuation, and it's always amazed me that no one was willing to draw the obvious conclusion -- until now.

It suits the interest of the powerful to look the other way, my friends on the left would say. What interest might that be? I'd ask. It keeps the rubes in line, they'd say. Surely, I'd say, there must be less extravagant methods available.

Perhaps not, but the nature of the extravagance, and it's true cost, can no longer be denied. Surely that's a good thing....

And thanks, Paul. You really are the soul of clarity at times.


And even when they aren't crazy, (4.00 / 2)
as individuals, since we all have those "nice" Republican neighbors, co-workers, family members, what's important is they worship a crazy god.

Even nice, not-crazy people can end up in some crazy places when they follow a crazy god.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Backward inquiry (0.00 / 0)
Why would you assume that destructive and inhumane behavior emanating from the political system requires some explanation from abnormal psychology?

Isn't war, oppression, and invasion the historical norm?  For someone to be crazy, don't they first need to violate norms?


[ Parent ]
The Cure (4.00 / 3)
No, not that cure, this Cure:

I've been looking so long at these pictures of you
That I almost believe that they're real
I've been looking so long at these pictures of you
That these pictures are all I can feel

Who -- or what -- is in the pictures? Normal people need to know.


So now that you've characterized your political opponents as psychopaths... (0.00 / 0)
... is the next step to suggest we should institutionalize them as dangerous to the community?


Well, Of Course They're Dangerous To The Community (4.00 / 3)
But you don't need a diagnosis to know that.

The point of a diagnosis is not to be taken in by their characteristic patterns of behavior. Sociopaths are notorious destructive to the lives of people they manage to get close to.  And politics allows them to get close to tens of millions of people that they never actually met in real life.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The problem I have is (0.00 / 0)
... the rhetoric of saying "well, your political philosophy just proves you're objectively mentally disordered and dangerous to society" has a rather disreputable history, as I'm sure you're aware, and has a tendency to lead to people going from "diagnosis" to "treatment" (time to lock the dissidents up in the psychiatric hospital, Comrade!)

Is it wrong to ask for some clarification, given that history?


[ Parent ]
Except who on the Left (4.00 / 8)
is calling for anyone on the Right to be locked up for political thought crimes? Where is the Ann Coulter, or the Rush Limbaugh, or the Michelle Malkin, or the Bill O'Reilly of the Left? There isn't one.

Until they commit actual crimes, sociopaths, including conservatives, deserve to be free. This does not mean they deserve to have positions of power.  

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Sadie's Got This Exactly Right (4.00 / 2)
You've got a wonderful theory going there, but it doesn't have any evidence to support it.  In fact, the left has long championed the rights of the mentally ill, right along with championing improved treatment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
as long as they can get their followers (4.00 / 1)
to commit crimes on their behalf with insinuation suggestion and innuendo they will go scot free. David Neiwert has it right,

A significant part of this country's media infrastructure is thoroughly devoted to inciting people to commit horrific acts of violence against us -- and now, we know for a fact that people are acting on those incitements. It's time to start taking this far more seriously. What goes out across our airwaves these days isn't all that different from what went out over Radio Rwanda a decade ago, spurring that country to genocide. At this point, it's only a difference of degree.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2...


[ Parent ]
More in sorrow than in anger (4.00 / 1)
No, we'd just like to keep their sticky little hands away from the levers of power. Onanists have their place, but for obvious reasons they make less than satisfactory stewards of public policy.

[ Parent ]
I can think of a few (4.00 / 1)
I'd like to see tried and convicted

[ Parent ]
putting aside your slippery slope (4.00 / 3)
Is Paul wrong in his analysis?  Where have Newt and the other top Republicans ever shown actual compassion for their fellow humans?  Where have they behaved in a manner inconsistent with sociopathy?

The converse is to believe that Newt is sincerely trying to build a better world for all and is just spectacularly bad at it, by always managing to make the world worse.  Eventually thinking that they're all just that dumb wears really thin and we must look for other explanations.


[ Parent ]
Plus (4.00 / 2)
One thing about sociopaths is that they characteristically have long, erratic histories of failure--even in their own terms--from which they learn nothing.

This is much less accurate a description of straightforward ideologues like the neocons than it is of more erratic types like Newt and Limbaugh. We're talking about real, empirically observable differences in behavior.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Ever shown actual compassion"? (0.00 / 0)
You realize that's a really small hurdle to get across, right? I'm pretty sure I could find people who could cite an instance of compassion from Newt or whoever.

[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 2)
It's not a high hurdle. Plus sociopaths are very good at faking things, if they've a mind to.  Which is why is really striking how little Newt even tries to appear compassionate.

But, really, my initial response is what remains most germane here: it's not that these are the first bad Republicans we've ever seen.  It's that there's something distinctively different about them now.  Everyone knows this, and everyone knows that it's related to their loss of power.  This is simply a more precise hypothesis framed in terms of psychology and the breakdown of other structures.  It's an empirical hypothesis, and to the extent that it makes sense of what we see unfolding before us, it should prove useful.  To the extent that it doesn't make sense of what happens, we should look for other explanations.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My favorite (4.00 / 2)
My favorite Newtism was his saying that we should either kill everyone caught with drugs or legalize them.  I think being willing to kill people for something he is also willing to legalize fits the definition.  He doesn't care.
 

--

Seeing The Forest -- Who is our economy FOR, anyway? Twitter: dcjohnson


[ Parent ]
And Here I Thought Newt Was A Both/And, Outside-The-Box Kind Of Guy! (0.00 / 0)
Kill everyone and legalize them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
the gop (0.00 / 0)
uses this extreme position on all things because acting crazy and angry does not require thought, intellect, effort, facts, common sense, or accuracy. not only are those in the con movement racist, bigoted, narrow minded, and anti-intellectual but they are generally the bottom feeders of all societies and don't have the capabilities to be considerate or compassionate when relating to others or opposing views. they are reactionaries nothing more then that, incapable of thought on any level and the world would be a better place if this anti everything movement could be eliminated from all societies regardless of social, economic, or political status.        

That would more likely be a narcisist (0.00 / 0)
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmu...

Narcissists are sociopaths who need the grandiosity.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


The best thing about solipsism is (4.00 / 2)
you're never really alone...

[ Parent ]
Mmm.. grandiose self-worth is part of the pathology of the psychopath. (0.00 / 0)
I wouldn't assume that just because Newty associates himself with Napolean and friends that this identifies him as a narcissist. It's not quite that simple.

[ Parent ]
narcissism vs sociopathy (4.00 / 6)
Narcissists do what they do out of a deep-seated sense of worthlessness and a feeling that they are unlovable. A common etiology is severe neglect during early childhood; they never receive love or caring from their parents and they learn that 1) they don't deserve it, they have some fundamental flaw that makes them disgusting and 2) it's not something anyone can give out, with anything of value you just to take what you need. That's why you see the grandiosity and the need to be admired and loved, but the inability to reciprocate. That's where the manipulation comes from, because even if if someone really does care for them they find that unbelievable. They control and hurt people because it makes them feel important and powerful, and their rage flares up after a perceived insult or even slight criticism (called the narcissistic injury) because they feel so threatened, and because of a fear that the power and control they've worked so hard to accumulate will all just be swept away.

Sociopaths just have no conscience at all. Antisocial personality disorder is generally considered more pathological than narcissism; it's brought on by parental abuse or inconsistency in discipline, where a child learn there's no relationship between their actions (or the actions of others) and punishment. That different behaviors lead to either praise or punishment is the most primitive phase of moral development, and sociopaths don't even get that much. Interestingly enough, they often do really well in tightly controlled environments, like prison or a group home, things that model what they never got, but once they're released and all those restrictions are gone they go right back to the shit that got them there in the first place, often with more sophisticated ways to commit their crimes. Sociopaths don't have a fear response they way normal people or even narcissists would, even when caught put in dangerous situations. They're quick to anger, but that's due to a basic lack of inhibition, not some massive insecurity. Sociopaths hurt people just cause they find it fun and it doesn't bother them. As children they sneak out at night, cut class, violent towards their peers and mutilate small animals and family pets. There's no personal gain involved with their crimes, they'll steal a car just because it's there, crash it into a ditch and walk away. They become expert liars and manipulators cause that's just what they do, this combined the lack of fear and any sense that they're doing something wrong makes them charming and unsuspicious.

It's really fun to think about, but if you've ever been close to one of these people you won't want to be again, and there's really no changing them.


[ Parent ]
You bring up an interesting point: (4.00 / 5)
"Interestingly enough, they often do really well in tightly controlled environments, like prison or a group home"

Paul made a comment on an earlier thread that the only "cure" for sociopathy would be to graft a conscience onto them, which of course cannot be done with flesh and blood people. But with "legal people," i.e., corporations, it might be another story.

Maybe there is a similar effect, in "tightly controlled environments" provided by strong oversight, regulations, systems of accountability to all stakeholders (including strong unions) the "legal people" called corporations could also become less destructive? They may never have an internal conscience but an external one may do just as well.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Very Good Summary (4.00 / 2)
Thanks.

As a matter of fact, there was a notorious little red-headed sociopath in the same school district I went to.  We were growing so fast that I only went to the same school as him one year.  But he stuck out so much I was always at least vaguely aware of him.  It was sort of common knowledge among all the kids that he was the same sort of person as Jesse James, and we all sort of expected him to end up the same way.  We didn't know the word for it, but we had him pegged.

He, too, could be incredibly charming whenever he wanted to.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's my understanding that narcissists are in particular scarred by (4.00 / 4)
severe neglect at around the age of 4, when children should be developing beyond the mirror stage. There's a woman who used to write about politics for Time whose husband once explained to me that she was a clinical narcissist. I wasn't in a position to verify it, but I did notice that she later flipped around discontentedly from position to position, which certainly reminded of the behavior of other narcissists I have known. The idea that we have narcissists reporting on sociopaths would explain so much about where we are today, no?

       


[ Parent ]
If You Ask Me... (4.00 / 1)
The idea that we have narcissists reporting on sociopaths would explain so much about where we are today, no?

It's enough to make you clinically depressed!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's been 40 years since I read Laing (0.00 / 0)
And I didn't read him exclusively, but in the context of Lilly, Perls, and Bateson. So my recollections may be jumbled. Can you real quick how Laing and Nash "converge?"

This is really good stuff, as usual, pablo...


Well, Here's The Synopsis (4.00 / 1)
filling in the missing paragraphs I left out of my initial post:

A separate strand in the documentary is the work of R.D. Laing, whose work in psychiatry led him to model familial interactions using game theory. His conclusion was that humans are inherently selfish, shrewd, and spontaneously generate strategems during everyday interactions. Laing's theories became more developed when he concluded that some forms of mental illness were merely artificial labels, used by the state to suppress individual suffering. This belief became a staple tenet of counterculture during the 1960s. Reference is made to the Rosenhan experiment, in which bogus patients, surreptitiously self-presenting at a number of American psychiatric institutions, were falsely diagnosed as having mental disorders, while institutions, informed that they were to receive bogus patients, "identified" numerous supposed imposters who were actually genuine patients. The results of the experiment were a disaster for American psychiatry, because they destroyed the idea that psychiatrists were a privileged elite able to genuinely diagnose, and therefore treat, mental illness.

All these theories tended to support the beliefs of what were then fringe economists such as Friedrich von Hayek, whose economic models left no room for altruism, but depended purely on self-interest, leading to the formation of public choice theory. In an interview, the economist James M. Buchanan decries the notion of the "public interest", asking what it is and suggesting that it consists purely of the self-interest of the governing bureaucrats. Buchanan also proposes that organisations should employ managers who are motivated only by money. He describes those who are motivated by other factors-such as job satisfaction or a sense of public duty-as "zealots".



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
wow, yeah, that makes sense (0.00 / 0)
thanks

[ Parent ]
Evil Christians (0.00 / 0)
Evil Christians (at Trollblog):  http://trollblog.wordpress.com/

we are in the calm before the storm (4.00 / 2)
The GOP has been defeated and lies in ruins, but what remains is a hard core of rabid fanatics--theocrats, militarists, ultra-nationalists--and it has been shorn of all moderating influences.

The economic downturn has only begun to be really felt, and the Democrats, so far, are providing inconsistent, muddled leadership instead of a clear alternative to the failed free-market ideology.

The time is ripe for the ultra-right wing to take over the GOP and make it into an openly fascist movement. They'll be able to gain popular support by appealing to the starving and desperate with calls to restore America's lost glory by taking back what's theirs by force and eliminating the "impure"--Muslims, homosexuals, immigrants. The Democrats, still deeply in the thrall of Wall Street, will not really try to solve our real problems and will be unable to respond vigorously enough to stem the tide.

We're in Weimar, marking time until the real storm hits.


They've succeeded (4.00 / 4)
The far right has already taken over the Republican Party.  This is not the Party of Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford but of Boehner, McConnell, and Jindal.

Seven of the 20 most moderate GOPers in the House left after 2006.  Guys like Leach and Boehlert.  Eight of the 20 most moderate (among the survivors) left after 2008 (Gilchrist, Shays, Saxton, Ferguson come to mind).  The Chaffees and the Jeffords are gone in the Senate leaving the Maine Ladies and Specter.  Specter's well up in his 70s.  The Senate has had an equally strong purge of Republican moderates.  Coleman, Gordon Smith, Stevens (a moderate by GOP terms because he lived for pork).

The Republicans have managed to both shrink and transform themselves at the same time.  One more bad election with the Reichert, Kirk, Gerlach, and four or five others gone and they will move even further right.

The process is far under way.  Imagine what they will look like with 35 Senate and 150 House members.


[ Parent ]
I Think Their Strategy Is (4.00 / 1)
to get so small, it's impossible for them to break into two warring factions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Nash was a twofer (4.00 / 1)
Nash not only was a paranoid schizophrenic he also undoubtedly had Asperger's Syndrome.  AS individuals are by definition of above average intelligence but they process information differently, have difficulty in reading facial expressions and body language or even some forms of humor.

The AS meant Nash naturally thought outside the box and failed to pick up cues.  It fed into the whole situatiuon.  Most AS individuals don't have schizophrenia.  Einstein's family admits he had AS.  Jefferson is widely suspected to have had AS as are William Tecumseh Sherman, Mozart and Newton.

Unlike Nash, there is nothing clueless about the Republicans.  It is just nasty, power driven and selfish.  And unlike Nash there really are not brilliant outside the box ideas.  Adding Nash to the mix without a fuller understanding seems a little cruel.


Well, The Point Is (4.00 / 1)
not so much Nash, the person, as it is the nature of the ideas and their social application.  The fact that game theory was tested and failed on the RAND secretaries, and the secretaries were then rejected as "unfit" is far more significant, I would argue.

In fact, I talked about Nash as much as I did simply to highlight how much contrasting narratives could tell radically different stories about the same events.  Personally, I think both narratives hold some significant truth to them, but the discussion of that in detail is less important to me right now than following the line I've laid out.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I have a slightly different take (4.00 / 2)

Unlike Nash, there is nothing clueless about the Republicans.  It is just nasty, power driven and selfish.

I'm not so sure about that. The point for me is that social pathologies can become more extreme, and more difficult to counterbalance, when ideologies are developed and used -- for whatever reasons -- to justify them. I thought that Paul's use of Nash as an example, and the accompanying dig at Hayek, were particularly tasty because they linked the origin of one of the more egregious and damaging tools of pathological political behavior in our time to an individual pathology.

True or not, Paul's analysis is useful as a metaphor of the be-careful-what-you-wish-for sort. From my point of view, classifying any particular part of the spectrum of human behavior as a pathology is fraught in all sorts of ways, as you suggest, and as the history of psychology and psychoanalysis confirms, at least as I read it. (I suspect that so many DFHs fell in love with Laing precisely because they read him principally as an anti-authoritarian. Paradoxically, it's also why rabid right-wingers were so violently opposed to government involvement in metal health care in the early Sixties.)

When all is said and done, we still have to explain why nasty, power-driven and selfish came to be the dominant characteristics of a political party with honorable roots, and many good acts to its credit. If we don't consider the cause to be a social pathology of some sort, I think we're left with some kind of supernatural explanation as the only alternative -- somewhere between God's punishment for our sins, and the curdling of the Zeitgeist. As a bastard child of Rousseau and Novalis, I'd really, really prefer not to go there.

Where Paul really strikes home with me is in his observation that a) even perfectly rational systems can have irrational origins and b) that because they can multiply the power of craziness many-fold, we need a much deeper critique of them than arguments about their purely instrumental effectiveness usually provides.


[ Parent ]
A shorter analysis (4.00 / 4)
courtesy of the Rude Pundit:

You need to expect that motherfuckers will fuck their mothers. It's just what motherfuckers do. They fuck their mothers. It's right there in the word.

I can add nothing.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Bit hard for me to swallow. (0.00 / 0)
You can be a complete asshole and a rotten human being without being a dangerous sociopath after all.

Check out Blue Arkansas:
http://bluearkansas.blogspot.com/


The Trap on google video (4.00 / 1)
To those who are interested, you can watch the first hour-long part of The Trap here: http://video.google.com/videop...

If you click on the "more from user" tab you'll see the links to parts 2 and 3 as well.


The whiff of Weimar (4.00 / 1)
hangs in the air.

If the economy DOES go really to shit--and there seems to be about a 50-50 chance that it will--well, every irruption of fascism is unique in its particulars even if, afterwards, there always seems to be same spoor and scat...


Sorry of course to interrupt all the self-congratulation here, (0.00 / 0)
but I wonder if describing Republicans simply as the party of sociopaths might not have an anomaly or two to deal with.

If, for example, the Conservative base is actually at least as generous to others as liberals, is it really plausible that none of their leaders -- many of whom may have arisen from their ranks -- is inspired by similar altruism, and that they are one and all sociopaths?

In short, how account for the following?

Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates.

Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, "Who Really Cares," cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.

Other research has reached similar conclusions. The "generosity index" from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so.

The upshot is that Democrats, who speak passionately about the hungry and homeless, personally fork over less money to charity than Republicans - the ones who try to cut health insurance for children.

"When I started doing research on charity," Mr. Brooks wrote, "I expected to find that political liberals - who, I believed, genuinely cared more about others than conservatives did - would turn out to be the most privately charitable people. So when my early findings led me to the opposite conclusion, I assumed I had made some sort of technical error. I re-ran analyses. I got new data. Nothing worked. In the end, I had no option but to change my views."

[snip]

When liberals see the data on giving, they tend to protest that conservatives look good only because they shower dollars on churches - that a fair amount of that money isn't helping the poor, but simply constructing lavish spires.

It's true that religion is the essential reason conservatives give more, and religious liberals are as generous as religious conservatives. Among the stingiest of the stingy are secular conservatives.

According to Google's figures, if donations to all religious organizations are excluded, liberals give slightly more to charity than conservatives do. But Mr. Brooks says that if measuring by the percentage of income given, conservatives are more generous than liberals even to secular causes.

In any case, if conservative donations often end up building extravagant churches, liberal donations frequently sustain art museums, symphonies, schools and universities that cater to the well-off. (It's great to support the arts and education, but they're not the same as charity for the needy. And some research suggests that donations to education actually increase inequality because they go mostly to elite institutions attended by the wealthy.)

Conservatives also appear to be more generous than liberals in nonfinancial ways. People in red states are considerably more likely to volunteer for good causes, and conservatives give blood more often. If liberals and moderates gave blood as often as conservatives, Mr. Brooks said, the American blood supply would increase by 45 percent.

Many apologies, again, for deviation from orthodoxy on this point.

Maybe the better thing is to refrain from demonizing one's political enemies. My own opinion is that they can be wrong, dead wrong, terribly and tragically wrong both for themselves and others, and still not be, one and all, fiends from the Netherworld.


Oh, and for what it's worth, (0.00 / 0)
if we are going to talk about inherent feelings of altruism in liberal political leaders, how does one explain that the Obamas, who earned an average of over $240K for five years before he decided to run for President, only gave less than 1% of their income, and the explanation proffered by a spokesman was that it "was as generous as they could be at the time," given their personal expenses?

Point is, maybe this whole notion that the generous/empathic thing falls along liberal/conservative lines isn't as clear cut as some people might like to make it.  


[ Parent ]
It's Simple (4.00 / 4)
First off, we're talking about political leadership here.  I've written repeatedly about the vast gap between the relatively small core of movement conservatives and the broad base of self-identified conservatives.  Bush's talk about "compassionate conservatism" was a typical example of the ongoing deception involved in hiding this gap.

But just so you know, there's more involved in making the the broader comparison as well.  First off, look more closely at what it says here:

It's true that religion is the essential reason conservatives give more, and religious liberals are as generous as religious conservatives. Among the stingiest of the stingy are secular conservatives.

So: religious liberals and conservatives give in equal amounts, and secular conservatives give the least. Ergo, the difference between liberals and conservatives as a whole comes from the fact that there are more secular liberals.  It's religiosity that's involved, not ideology.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the religious are more altruistic.  After all, they believe that their altruism in this life pays off big time--forever!--in eternity.

Yet another angle to consider is that liberals are much more likely to go into relatively underpaid helping professions.  They may give less of their income in part because they've chosen to make less in the first place, because they want to do work that's inherently giving.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I know the thread is dead but... (4.00 / 1)
As a secular liberal I don't give to charities because so many of them are religiously affiliated.  I, in fact, feel it is the role of government to provide for all our citizens not some charitable organization that I have no voting say in.  I pay my taxes and would willingly pay more if those in power use it wisely to benefit us all.

You can call me uncharitable, but at least I don't vote for people who think the government's main role is to kill and incarcerate people!


[ Parent ]
I've Never Seen So Many Comments In A Dead Thread (0.00 / 0)
I pretty much feel the same way myself.  Plus, if I'm going to give money, it's not going to be for social service, it's going to be for social change.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
good job posting in a dead thread (4.00 / 2)
and completely misunderstanding it as well

[ Parent ]
Misunderstanding. (0.00 / 1)
I don't think he misunderstood.  He made the mistake of trying to find any logic.

I gave up pretty quickly.  As I see it, Rosenberg argues:

1.  Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic.  His mental illness may have informed some of his perceptions of human behavior that led to his development of game theory.

2.  Although Nash was a schizophrenic, many non-schizophrenics found his insights useful enough to award him the Nobel Prize.

3.  Some free market theorists were influenced by Nash, and saw economics as a series of isolated transactions between suspicious and amoral actors, and argued that an equilibrium could be maintained in that system.  

4.  To adopt the world view of a free market theorist is crazy, because Nash was crazy.  Of course, Nash wasn't a "sociopath" but crazy is crazy, apparently.  Larry Summers is crazy, as is Alan Greenspan.   This comment might itself seem a little crazy, until you apply the extremely subtle reasoning that appears in the 1948 text Rosenberg cites: "sociopaths" don't LOOK crazy.  

5.  Newt Gingrich was cruel to his wife.  He also is a radical free market theorist and a megalomaniac.  The description of Gingrich, if it is to be classified, fits narcissistic personality disorder, including a lack of empathy, and a sense that one is special in history, not an antisocial personality disorder.

6.  Some group in the Republican party are therefore sociopaths - maybe the leaders of the far right, maybe the movement conservatives.  The proof that these Republicans suffer from antisocial personality disorder is that Nash was schizophrenic, and Newt Gingrich may have a narcissistic personality disorder.  

My conclusion: This tread isn't dead, the site is.  


[ Parent ]
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