The Nature Of Ideology And Mental Freedom

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 14:51


The role of ideology keeps coming up again and again, often with people only barely recognizing it.  And this seemed to be a moment crying out for some clarification.  I'd like to start with a comment I wrote in response to comment by metamars.  I wrote:

I Agree With Everything You Say Here

except for your bizarre insistence that "this has nothing to do with ideology":

I personally am not very ideological, so I don't look at this so much as "pushing Obama to the left". Rather, I look at this as saving the country from financial armegeddon, which will directly relate to the ability of the United States to lead the world to a greener, planet-saving future.

We can't afford to waste yet another 8 years, which could be well spent moving the planet to a sustainable future. To me, this has nothing to do with ideology. If the sea level is rising, water resources are getting stressed, arable farm land is being lost, and we are still hooked on burning hydrocarbons, 8 years from now, your ideology isn't going to make a fig of difference when it inevitably becomes your turn to suffer drought, lung cancer, hunger, and poverty.

The essence of ideology is how one parses the world--not just the physical world, but the moral and conceptual world as well.  So the connections you make in this passage are your ideology made manifest.

This is a crucial point, deeply obscured by our history, and repeated mischaracterizations of ideology (typified by the trope, "I have ideas, you have an ideology!").

Paul Rosenberg :: The Nature Of Ideology And Mental Freedom
One clarifying perspective on ideology comes from the developmental psychologist Robert Kegan, whose work synthesizing the tradition of Piaget and Kohlberg I've cited a number of times before.  As I've explained, Kegan's elegant explanation for the logic involved was simple: at each stage, what was background/context/subject at the stage before moves to the fore, becoming foreground/content/object, so that it can be consciously dealt with.  That gives rise to the following table:

Kegan's Subject/Object Schema of Cognitive Development
StageWe Are:
Subject
(structure of knowing)
We Have:
Object
(content of knowing)
Underlying Structure
1Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
Movement


Sensation
2Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
3
Traditionalism
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship


Inner states
Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Needs, Peferences
4
Modernism
Abstract Systems
Ideology

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship

Inner states
Subjectivity
Self-consciousness
5
Post-
Modernism
Dialectical

INTER-
INSTITUTIONAL

Self-transformation
Abstract Systems
Ideology

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Self-regulation
Self-formation

At level 3, abstractions are subject.  At level 4, they are object, and abstract systems are subject.  Abstract systems, paired with ideology, then become object at level 5.

What does this mean, in everyday terms?  The bottom line is Simple: at level 4 one can think systematically about abstract ideas, taking them as object, and this is the essence of ideology.

Elaborating, things get a little more complicated, but not that much.  Level 4, the stage associated with modernism, is where liberalism emerges as a coherent body of ideas, just as the potential for true individual autonomy emerges as well ("self-authorship").  Prior to that, level 3 is associated with traditional society, in which the background subject of the self is defined by the existing social roles and relationships ("MUTUALITY/INTERPERSONALISM; Relationship").  These social roles and relationships reflect implicit ideological relationships, but they can be incredibly murky.

On the other side, level 5 makes it possible to take ideology as object, which means, among other things, that one can essentially use ideology like a tool, in fact, one can use a whole array of different ideologies, just as one can have a tool kit with a wide variety of different tools.

From this perspective, one can look at the current financial crises and the Obama administration response, and certain things pop out that would otherwise remain murky at best.  For one thing, the Wall Street mindset can be viewed as shaping its own particular form of level 3 consciousness, where the social roles, relationships and practices shape the very foundations of consciousness, the background of cognition used to think about the objects of the world.  The abstractions cannot be questioned in terms of any larger framework.  Which helps to explain the sort of puzzling situation pointed out by Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism:

What is amazing is the degree to which Bernanke has been unable to process what has happened over the last year and a half. It isn't simply that he is trying to restore status quo ante; he seems to see the only possible operative paradigm as the status quo ante. Worse, he has a romanticized view of it too.

We had a massive stock market bubble, followed by an even bigger asset orgy, with housing at the epicenter, but plenty of other types got dragged along with it. Having asset appreciation fueled by debt is NOT how a healthy economy operates. It is going to take some time for the excesses to work themselves through. Carmine Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff's study of major postwar financial crises have found stock prices take 3 1/2 years to bottom.

But Ben believes the trend from here has to be up, and seems unable to consider that rather than the risk appetite being irrationally low now, it may have been irrationally complacent earlier.

The question here is not a matter of IQ. Bernanke is a very smart man.  But cognitive complexity is not IQ.  Which is why it really doesn't matter how smart Bernanke is.  He simply lacks the cognitive framework needed to grasp another reality beyond the one he is already familiar with.

And that's the problem in a nutshell.  And not just with respect to the financial crisis.  That's only the most pressing and most obvious example.  On issue after issue, our political system has come to be dominated by "intellectual" cliques who are, essentially separate communities, each with their shared level 3 consciousness, incapable of engaging in true ideological thought, with is the bare minimum necessary for genuine, mature critical thinking. What we actually need to solve the most pressing problems we face is actually one step beyond that, at level 5.  But getting to level 4 would at least provide a significant step forward, and would allow us to make progress, even on the most intractable problems, though fundamental solutions could still not be achieved.

As this viewpoint should make clear, all talk about "pragmatism" versus "ideology" is nothing but muddle-headed babbling.  The most pragmatic thing we can possibly do is to get clearer, more conscious and more able to deal with things from an ideological perspective.  It is only through becoming more ideologically adept that we can become free from limiting assumptions whose very existence we cannot even see without some degree of ideological awareness.


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Are you the only guy that writes on Sunday's, I feel like i'm stalking you (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, our worldview predisposes us to certain policy prescriptions. If a person doesn't think wealth inequality is a problem, then they probably won't give a damn about progressive taxation. And the reality is that we don't all agree on what is and isn't a problem.

But in areas where we do agree (i.e. the economy sucks, what can we do about it) I think you are more likely to see the pragmatist-ideolouge debate become more grounded in reality. The perfect example is when John Boenher was asking for a right wing economists to give him an alternative to Obama's stimulus (or something like that). That's obviously a choice rooted in ideology and not the practical (pragmatism). And you see the same thing here sometimes. I've never thought the phrase "fuck krugman" so many times in my life (not that i don't like paul krugman, i'm just very contrarian). It's like people drop back to their ideological zone just because they are comfortable there. They pick and choose their own authorities and policy prescriptions and shut everything else out.

But ultimately I guess the argument can be made that this is what everyone does and no one is really disposed to all policy prescriptions equally. I dunno. I'm just puttin my thoughts down.


Yeah, but.... (4.00 / 2)
The key is not to decide on your world-view too quickly. Knock around a bit first...schau dem Volk auf's Maul, etc., etc.....

[ Parent ]
;-) (4.00 / 3)
For a guy who claims that Hegel gives him a rash, you sometimes sound a lot like him. Couldn't be an accident, right?

Rara avis, this level of political analysis, rarely seen in America, but cause for celebration when it is. (Bernanke, shmernanke. Give me a wandering Jew any day.)


You've (4.00 / 1)
just defined ideology as a stage on a scale of increasingly complex thinking.

Defining ideology to mean something other than what it is commonly believed to be does not make for a winning argument.

In the context of the financial crisis, an ideological approach might include putting a desire to see caps on executive pay, , higher marginal tax rates, restoration of regulations, and the break up of large institutions in first place over simply solving the immediate problem in a politically possible manner.  

In other words, you might have a bunch of ideas that you thought were important before there was a financial crisis and that you want to see implemented now very badly.  

Don't get hung up on the possibility that you are right about everything and that your ideas would have prevented the crisis and are the only way to prevent the next one.  The issue isn't right or wrong.  The Republicans want to use this opportunity to cut taxes because that is their ideological predisposition.  They think they're right, too.

The difference between pragmatism and ideology is a matter of emphasis.  The pragmatist has an ideology, and they will push that ideology in a crisis.  But they are focused quite heavily on what is possible.  The ideologue is focused on optimal outcomes.  One will define the best solution as the best available option.  The other will tend to argue that all is lost without the optimal solution.

But none of this really has anything to do with Robert Kegan.


@ BooMan (4.00 / 1)

The difference between pragmatism and ideology is a matter of emphasis.  The pragmatist has an ideology, and they will push that ideology in a crisis.  But they are focused quite heavily on what is possible.  The ideologue is focused on optimal outcomes.  One will define the best solution as the best available option.  The other will tend to argue that all is lost without the optimal solution.

It's hard to imagine a more dogged -- or ill-conceived -- defense of the conventional wisdom than is represented by this quote. Paul can handle the details of the rebuttal you deserve; all I'll say is that the sound of grinding axes is coming from your direction, not his....


[ Parent ]
The (4.00 / 1)
odd thing about English usage is that it relies on conventional wisdom about what words mean.

You have a debate over whether someone is being ideological to the point of it being a detriment.  

And you have one party refuse to agree on what the term 'ideological' means.  

As this viewpoint should make clear, all talk about "pragmatism" versus "ideology" is nothing but muddle-headed babbling.  The most pragmatic thing we can possibly do is to get clearer, more conscious and more able to deal with things from an ideological perspective.

Well, yeah, from that viewpoint that no else shares, it is pragmatic to be more ideological.  But no one was even arguing on those terms.  There is a critique.  That critique might have merit or it might not.  But you can't just say:

1) ideological thinking is pragmatic thinking

or

2) ideological thinking is higher order thinking

The debate isn't over what ideology means.  The debate is over whether people are putting their political preferences ahead of politically available options...perfect the enemy of the good...self-defeating purity tests...etc.

You can have that debate.  This essay elides that debate.


[ Parent ]
I rest my case (4.00 / 2)

The odd thing about English usage is that it relies on conventional wisdom about what words mean.

The commonplace thing about English usage, or that of any other language, is that it's fluid.

I don't think you really understand what that means, which is why Paul writes diaries like this one.


[ Parent ]
Umm.... (4.00 / 1)
"Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language." -Ludwig Wittgenstein

Or, more elaborately:

On this conception of the philosophical enterprise, the vagueness of ordinary usage is not a problem to be eliminated but rather the source of linguistic riches. It is misleading even to attempt to fix the meaning of particular expressions by linking them referentially to things in the world. The meaning of a word or phrase or proposition is nothing other than the set of (informal) rules governing the use of the expression in actual life.

Like the rules of a game, Wittgenstein argued, these rules for the use of ordinary language are neither right nor wrong, neither true nor false: they are merely useful for the particular applications in which we apply them. The members of any community-cost accountants, college students, or rap musicians, for example-develop ways of speaking that serve their needs as a group, and these constitute the language-game (Moore's notes refer to the "system" of language) they employ. Human beings at large constitute a greater community within which similar, though more widely-shared, language-games get played. Although there is little to be said in general about language as a whole, therefore, it may often be fruitful to consider in detail the ways in which particular portions of the language are used.

Even the fundamental truths of arithmetic, Wittgenstein now supposed, are nothing more than relatively stable ways of playing a particular language-game. This account rejects both logicist and intuitionist views of mathematics in favor of a normative conception of its use. 2 + 3 = 5 is nothing other than a way we have collectively decided to speak and write, a handy, shared language-game. The point once more is merely to clarify the way we use ordinary language about numbers.

Or, in layman's terms, we communicate by agreeing on the meaning of words, not by debating their meaning and trying to say one meaning is true and another false.  


[ Parent ]
And if you don't like Hegel, how about Socrates? (4.00 / 1)

...in layman's terms, we communicate by agreeing on the meaning of words, not by debating their meaning and trying to say one meaning is true and another false.

Never heard of the dialectic, have you? One thing's for sure, you've never actually encountered a Hegelian before, which is probably why you need a life preserver now.

Paul may be bored; I'm more what you'd probably call bemused. To each his own, I guess.


[ Parent ]
William (4.00 / 1)
it's not really an argument to tell me that I haven't encountered a Hegelian.  I have a degree in philosophy but I am not interested in trading credentials.  I can't really respond to whatever point you think you are making because it isn't clear to me what your point is.  

A stab at a guess is that you are talking about synthetic change in meaning.  But I'm talking about something more static.  Basic communication between two people.  If you and I cannot agree that 2+3=5 then we're not going to have a productive or meaningful debate.  


[ Parent ]
What you overlook, among other things.... (0.00 / 0)
This isn't about what a table is -- three legs or four, or both, etc.  Neither is it about how to compute sums, nor least of all about credentials. What it is about is who gets to define the terms of the debate. The consensus about meaning which you claim is necessary before we can talk is clearly one which you believe occurs on static ground, ground which, precisely by defining it as static, you can claim as your own exclusive possession, the sine qua non.

This, my friend, isn't gonna wash, especially when you keep waving the ostrich fans in front of your own ideological shibboleths. As in all political discussions, there's something about power at work here, and that's something which must be tried in a broader arena, even if it can be adumbrated between two stiff-necks on a lazy Sunday afternoon in Left Blogistan.


[ Parent ]
William (0.00 / 0)
...but it is a debate over whether a table has three legs or four because Paul decided to make it a debate about that.

You're suggesting that he can use his powers to change the generally agreed upon four-leg definition.

Suffice to say, I wasn't trying to argue against three-legs but suggest it was not really the debate other people are having.


[ Parent ]
Descriptive isn't automatically normative -- unless you're Homer (4.00 / 1)
The debate other people are having needs some fresh thinking, at least as I perceive it.

Which, when all is said and done, is why we're here, and not to establish an Académie Française on the left.


[ Parent ]
Who defines the terms of the debate? (0.00 / 0)
Bernanke has a level-three or four consciousness, apparently, as does Geithner, Summers, and Obama.  You and Paul have a level five consciousness.  As Paul has made clear, those of the level-five Gnostic order have no interest in engaging undeveloped minds.

The terms of the debate are dictated by the people who have neither the ability or inclination to engage your ideas.


[ Parent ]
Level 6 (4.00 / 2)
I'd try to explain to you how one objectifies self-transformation, but your meager human languages have not the power required for such sophisticated thought.  Pity.

[ Parent ]
There's A Pill For That (4.00 / 2)
I'd try to explain to you how one objectifies self-transformation,

Topher has a whole drawer full of them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Heh again.... (0.00 / 0)
So did the Buddha.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, Dude, But Cognitive Levels Have Nothing To Do With Virtue (0.00 / 0)
The utility of using them is that they help identify patterns of limitation or reach in the scope of thinking.  People point out such patterns all the time, but have no frame of reference to make sense of them.  This helps them do that.

Naturally, someone with your personal issues would get bent out of shape.

It's always revealing to see what people read into new ideas.  You, Booman... in contrast to folks like Sadie who just jumps in and says, "Oh, does that mean...."


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Again, Paul, why so personal? (0.00 / 0)
You've deduced that I have a resistance to all "new" ideas and have "personal issues?"  Perhaps it's just SOME of YOUR ideas I don't like.  Perhaps your ideas aren't particularly new. Perhaps it's the way you express yourself. Perhaps not liking some of your ideas isn't an symptom of anything other than not liking some of your ideas, and completely separate from whether I have "personal issues."

And, btw, offhand, it would seem to me that mental development and maturity has a great deal to do with virtue. In fact, isn't having a level-three development while weilding power one of the world's great evils?  Aren't moral systems ideologies, and won't undeveloped minds grasp at harmful moral systems?  


[ Parent ]
Golly gee.... (4.00 / 3)
Looks like they were waiting to serve the really good stuff until after I toddled off. This:

The terms of the debate are dictated by the people who have neither the ability or inclination to engage your ideas.

is really precious, kanzeon, worthy of Spiro Agnew, or perhaps that anonymous (heh) member of the Bush administration who let us know, in no uncertain terms, just who was making the reality around here.

Stick with Geithner and Obama if you like. I'll stick with the gnostics, and we'll both be happy. Paul can fend for himself; even you'll have to admit that he's good at it.


[ Parent ]
Questions? (0.00 / 0)
1.  Can you tell me the level of mental development each of these individuals have acheived:

Paul Krugman
Hugo Chavez
Milton Friedman
Barack Obama
John Edwards

We already know, apparently, Bernanke, is at level three, but I'm not sure of the exact analysis to get there.  Maybe you can help me, because, being a level two myself, I need to figure out who I should consider as serious (other than you and Paul).

2.  Can you explain to me, exactly, what is the difference between Paul's use of child development models, and every other attempt to demonize those who disagree not as merely mistaken, but defective or evil?  That is what I mean when I say Paul's idea is "old."

3.  Can you explain how, exactly, this thread which began discussing ideology, and then discussing the fact that language is fluid, and then discussing who makes policy and whether, if those people are inherently defective, ideology makes any difference, now has become one about who makes "reality?"  The Bush administration made policy, as do the undeveloped minds at Treasury.  That's reality.  Whether they make good policy is another question - but I don't have to accept their opinions as justified to understand that they define the terms of the debate, and this message board doesn't.


[ Parent ]
We just disagree (0.00 / 0)
Paul can speak for himself. As for me, I would say that yes, you have a point, but only when you bring power relationships into the argument, which are -- whether you believe it or not -- as fluid as language, and as subject to fashion and externalities as philosophy is.

The war, so to speak, is always a war of meaning, and being able to spend more money than your adversary, or direct armies against him, or lock him in a wire cage and starve him has never, ever, in history guaranteed that you'll win that war. So please, don't talk in such idolatrous terms about who defines the terms of the debate. That's what got BooMan into trouble in the first place.

To note that Bernanke cannot step outside what he knows is not to say that he's inferior, or necessarily that he doesn't understand what I understand. It may just be that he thinks that the stakes are too high, or that he can't see a clear path through the maze of his very pressing responsibilities. To insist that he's a pragmatist, however, and that Paul and I are ideologues whose views are without any consequence in the real world, is to misunderstand not only the whole history of politics, but of philosophy as well. (Some philosophers would even argue that it's to misunderstand the nature of reality itself. Hegel was one of them, but then, so was Jesus, and as I said above, the Buddha.)


[ Parent ]
Doesn't it depend (0.00 / 0)
on who is doing the insisting, and what that person means by "pragmatist" and "ideologue?"

That was what I took to be BooMan's perspective.

As to whether this is a "misunderstanding" of the "whole history of philosophy," well, all I can say is that I find both of your posts a bit silly and pretentious.  Last time I checked, I wasn't aware of any agreement on any aspect of a single issue of philosophy, much less its "whole history" (Eastern and Western!  Jesus too!).  I always thought that part of the frustrating appeal of philosophy was that none of us understood it exactly the same way.  No, doubt, that's my misunderstanding the Buddha.


[ Parent ]
And so to bed.... (0.00 / 0)

...well, all I can say is that I find both of your posts a bit silly and pretentious.

It wasn't actually necessary to say this; it was obvious from the beginning. Some will agree with you, some won't. Either way, the sun will come up tomorrow.


[ Parent ]
Quite right. (4.00 / 1)
I apologize for that.  My beef isn't with you.

I find much of Paul's analysis nothing more than thinly-veiled justifications of intolerance.  Clearly, you see something different.

Sleep well.  


[ Parent ]
REALLY Bored Now! (2.67 / 3)
Do you ever allow for the emergence of new ideas?  I remember you pathologically lying out your ass about Lakoff so intolerantly that I decided to stop participating on your site. And now here are doing it again over Kegan.

Doesn't this sort of militant close-mindedness on your part ever get old?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Wait (4.00 / 1)
setting aside your accusation about Lakoff, you're not suggesting I am lying about Kegan, are you?  I didn't even address the merits of his ideas one way or the other.

[ Parent ]
No Not Lying (2.00 / 2)
Just dismissing out of hand without considering.

In which case, why even bother to comment?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So Kanzeon, You're Troll-Rating Me For NOT Calling Booman A Liar? (0.00 / 0)
You've just won a prize!

Most far-fetched, counter-intuitive abuse of troll-rating of the day!

You really are a piece of work.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
You're being troll rated because your posts seem to be below the standard of civil discourse.

BooMan may be correct or incorrect. He may be seriously misguided or missing the obvious (although I fail to see anything wrong with his observations).  However, it is not productive to either call him a "liar," as you did above, or dismissively state that he rejects ideas out of hand without considering.  The first is more confrontational, certainly.  But neither is productive, objective, or useful, and diverts the discussion from the subject to the poster.

If you have such a highly developed, mature view of the world, why is it that you are frequently nasty and personal with those who disagree with you?  I realize you think that they are idiots or liars (most of us have the same reaction to those who disagree with us).

Similarly, you call me a "piece of work" without considering that I have an objection to your approach that I have considered (rightly or wrongly).  How is that possibly called for?  Is my action in somthing so minor and clicking a button on a message board cause for that sort of personal response?

If you don't want to engage the poster, fine.  Perhaps he isn't worth the effort.  Perhaps the attentive reader has already taken your side.  But I see no reason to conclude that BooMan has failed to disgest and consider your post.  Nor do I see the point in titling your posts "bored now."  It's insulting, unnecessary, and degrades the discussion.  In my opinion, of course, which may not be universally shared.

Do you act this way in real time?


[ Parent ]
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (4.00 / 2)
perhaps?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Bored Now (4.00 / 2)
Defining ideology to mean something other than what it is commonly believed to be does not make for a winning argument.

And merely asserting a claim does not prove it.

In fact, ideology widely is recognized as a systematic organization of ideas.  So I'm not redefining it at all.  I am, however, following Kegan in recontextualizing it.  And, of course, in doing so, I'm not precluding other ways of recontextualizing it as well.

Indeed, one PhD student of Kegan's did her thesis on combining his contextual framework with that of groupthink.

What you're doing here is simply ignoring a new idea, not even trying to understand it, and then reverting back to the same old tired realm of unilluminating ideas.  Of course there is also a dimension of rigidity vs. flexibility in applying any ideology.  Tell me something I don't know.

There is also a dimension of sanity vs. batshit craziness, too.  Not all ideologies are created equal, you know.  There are all manner of different ways they can be contrasted and compared.  And, of course, many, many people simply attach themselves to one fragment of a larger ideological framework, or even mix and match pieces of different ones.  This happens quite naturally and unconsciously at levels 2 and 3, and happens quite deliberately at level 5.

So, in short, what I'm doing here is providing a useful tool for exploring an aspect of ideological thinking not hithertoo explored--a pragmatic implement, one might call it.  And you are rejecting it on principle.  Or custom, rather.

How very level 3 of you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I can (4.00 / 1)
accept part of your argument.  When you say that you are introducing a new idea or new way of thinking about ideology, I'm with you.

But where you lost me is near the end when you asserted that in light of this viewpoint it is clear that all debate about pragmatism vs. ideology is muddle-headed.

That appeared to me to be a way of side-stepping a debate over whether critics of the administration are letting their ideology govern to a degree that is problematic.  

Now, if you hadn't made that conclusion to your piece, I wouldn't have objected.  


[ Parent ]
That's Not The Sole Determinant (4.00 / 2)
It's not just in light of this viewpoint that I make that point.

There's also the quote from Naked Capitalism (and I could have added many more) which makes it rather clear how ideologically blinkered Team Obama is.  (This point has been made repeatedly around the blogosphere recently, and I felt no need for overkill.)

Thus, the muddle-headedness is already self-evident from the fact that you have Obama, an economic layman, claiming he's not guided by ideology, while following the lead of narrow ideological cabal against an avalanche of empirical counter-arguments.

So, although the Keganesque explanation comes first in the narrative flow in this diary, it's actually last on the scene to help make sense of what's already transpired.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
actually I agree with your point in your latest diary about Obama lacking a degree of pragmatism because his economic team isn't balanced enough to provide a good spectrum of ideas.

I wasn't engaging this piece from the standpoint that Obama is a pragmatist and you are not.  

I was going straight for the logical construction of the piece.  

My beef is that you asserted that looking at ideology is this idiosyncratic way somehow magically renders this other debate we're all having over here on completely different terms somehow moot.  


[ Parent ]
I Was Arguing That It Shed Light (0.00 / 0)
As this viewpoint should make clear....

Not quite the same as saying that it magically renders anything moot.  And I wouldn't agree that it's completely different terms, either.  Unless you further specify what you mean by that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Captured it brilliantly: (4.00 / 2)
Thus, the muddle-headedness is already self-evident from the fact that you have Obama, an economic layman, claiming he's not guided by ideology, while following the lead of narrow ideological cabal against an avalanche of empirical counter-arguments.

That's the problem that Kevin Phillips noticed in his book 'Bad Money' and what Matt Taibbi nailed....the language of the economic problem, - the CDS's, CDO's, derivatives, CMO's, in addition to the function they perform, shows that nearly ALL of us are illiterate economic laymen about this stuff(what do you suppose was the percentage of the adult population that knew what those stood for and their function prior to this crisis?).  What Obama has done, it seems to me, in addition to admitting his economic laymen status is forget to ask  'what, where, how, why, and who' brought these economic instruments to bear; he is neglecting the history behind it.

Worse for those of us that did ask those questions is that we know that the people that he is surrounding himself with to guide him through this  period helped precipitate the crisis with their previous actions and their idealogical beliefs.

The only thing worse than not ask those questions is to have asked them and then to have still chosen those same advisors because it would tell me that he does share their idealogical bent and all the talk of real change means maybe in other spheres but do not look for any real reform to happen in how Wall St conducts business.

 


[ Parent ]
Let me see if I understand -- (4.00 / 3)
it seems to me what you are saying is that at level 5, ideas become tools. That makes ideology a toolkit.

Therefore the people who are disdaining ideology, in favor of "pragmatism" or whatever are, in a sense, saying, "We don't need no stinking tools! We will solve these problems with nothing more than . . . gumption . . . or, or something."

Close?

Montani semper liberi


Close (4.00 / 5)
but ideology is not just ideas, it's a system of ideas. We have mental tools at every stage, but they become increasingly sophisticated.

A sloppy-minded rejection of ideology does indeed equate to tossing out the best tools available.

Here's the thing: ingroup favoratism is, in effect, a low-level ideology, a primitive system of thought.  It's not really an ideology in the above sense, as it doesn't operate on abstract ideas.  But it's sort of like a template that can be joined with abstract ideas--somewhat analogously to how a virus can join with a living cell.  And this is what's functioning to reject ideologies it doesn't like, under the cover of "pragmatism".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
In-group favoritism as a primitive ideology -- (4.00 / 5)
I'll have to chew on that one for a while. But I think I can see how it works, as an unconscious organizing principle.

Being unconscious it cannot be compared, or evaluated rationally. A person can't say "this new idea is superior to my currently held one" unless they recognize that they do, in fact, hold an idea. Or maybe another way of putting it is, until an idea is held consciously we do not hold them at all, they hold us.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
So, my 15 minutes of fame finally came..... (0.00 / 0)
and all I got was this lousy web page!

Just kidding. :-)

Hopefully I will find time to post something worthwhile, tomorrow.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


Ideology vs. idea-ology (0.00 / 0)
Pay no attention to the title. I'm just filling space.

I still have a lots of work to do, took way to long to cook, blah, blah. I don't want to study this diary carefully, today. For now, I'll just say that

1) I take it as a given that everybody has a belief system, and, except for the completely amoral, a value system
2) I was thinking of ideology in the sense of some commonly recognized system of thought. I refuse to identify myself as liberal, conservative, or libertarian, since I find very attractive ideas in all of those, though also some very unfortunate and, in the case of libertarian thought, also some impractical-to-the-point-of-stupid concepts.
3) I don't try to make incongruous beliefs and opinions that I hold mesh, somehow, by searching for an axiomatic framework that can allow me to claim that I have some sort of consistent belief system, even given that it's wouldn't be called by one of the more well-know categories (liberal, conservative, libertarian). I have no need of doing so, in part because I am guided by the belief that our mundane minds are inferior organs of guidance in things moral, to our intuition. Indeed, you will not have a life which magnifies the "Impersonal" (i.e., your inner, divine nature) unless you can "allow the mind to empty". For anybody who is interested, I refer you to the excellent books by Swami Omananda Puri Towards the Mysteries and The Boy and the Brothers. There used to be a copy of at least one of these for free on the web, but the text got somewhat mangled. Don't know if it's still out there.

What I meant when I said that "I'm not very ideological" was not that I don't have very firm and even definite ideas about things our government does, or can't give you reasons why I consider so much of what Uncle Sam does to be grossly immoral. I simply mean that you will be be hard-pressed to label, in an over-arching fashion, what I believe by some commonly-recognized belief system.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Look To What Mark Wrote Below About Level 5 Pragmatism (0.00 / 0)
My point here would simply be that it's important for folks such as yourself to get both more precise and more explicit about your ideological thinking.  Not because of being wedded to it, as is commonly and mistakenly believed you must be to talk about it, but because talking in terms of different ideological perspectives is how we create a level 5 discourse, one that's inherently much more suited to dealing with the level of complexity of the problems we face.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I get it, Pragmatism == Level 5 (4.00 / 1)
You do realize you just made the best arguement anyone could make that pragmatism is better then ideology, right?

On the other side, level 5 makes it possible to take ideology as object, which means, among other things, that one can essentially use ideology like a tool, in fact, one can use a whole array of different ideologies, just as one can have a tool kit with a wide variety of different tools.

For example, I'm not much of a populist.  But as I keep saying, I think populism is the correct solution for the times.  That is pragmatism, not being stuck in an ideology.

Ok, yes, I'm mostly just messing with you.  I know absolutely well that the "pragmatism" being tossed around in Washington is actually a level 3 ideology that they don't realize is an ideology.  But I suspect some do use the term in this fashion.  This is something to keep a lookout for.


Yup! You Win The Kerpie Doll! (0.00 / 0)
Absolutely!  Level 5 pragmatism is where it's at!

Which is why I so despise the way "pragmatism" is so horrendously misrepresented in the world of the Versailles dealmakers.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Subject versus Object (4.00 / 5)
For those that don't get the whole subject versus object stages, think of a love song.  In a typical love song, the singer is completely immersed in love.  It doesn't mean the singer doesn't no love exists, obviously, but s/he also doesn't really grasp the context.  Love is just there, assumed.

The next level is a song about love.  Now love is the object and can be analyzed from a variety of different perspectives.



Nice Touch! (0.00 / 0)
Appreciated!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Planned for weeks :-) (4.00 / 1)
When I noticed a couple weeks ago Ayreon had a video (sort of) to Day 11: Love it occurred to me it would work well to describe Kegan levels.  I planned to work it into the conversation the next time you brought the subject up.

It's actually more levelly than this example.  As you probably guessed, it is part of a rock opera, so there is even more context to the album The Human Equation:

The album explores the idea of psychological rebirth, and follows the story of a man who, after falling into a coma following a car accident, is confronted with his past, his emotions, and his current situation as he lays trapped inside his own mind. The circumstances surrounding the accident are mysterious, as the man ("Me", portrayed by James LaBrie) ploughed into a tree on a deserted road in broad daylight. Following this, he slips into a twenty-day coma, with each day represented by a single song.  Each song follows a slightly different format, though there are major common themes, such as the presence of Me's manifest emotions in his dream world ... the presence of Me's Wife and Best Friend at his bedside and the past events that Me is forced to reflect on.

To push it even a level further, the album is actually about a race of ancient aliens, called Forever, using Dream Sequencer technology to guide a human through various emotions in order to solve the Human Equation and prevent humans from destroying themselves in the year 2084, but you have to listen to other Ayreon albums to get that.  This album only gives a hint in the final few seconds of the last song (embed jumps to the end):



[ Parent ]
Patience Repaid! (0.00 / 0)
Worth waiting for, I hope.  Looks that way to me.

Now that you bring this up, I remember making up fantasy/sf games as a kid that had a similar sort of embedded level structure.  I hadn't thought about them in some time.  As I recall, they ended up influencing my dreams.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So would this be a level 5 song on those terms? (0.00 / 0)

Lyrics here so you can make sense of the simultaneous verses.


[ Parent ]
Level (0.00 / 0)
I didn't actually claim either song was any particular level, just that one was a level up from the other.  In reality, a love song is probably only level two, making a song about love level three.

But yeah, Anthrax would be the higher one, whatever that is.


[ Parent ]
It Depends (0.00 / 0)
Could be either level 3 or 4.  If it's love as conventionally defined, level 3.  If not, it could be level 4 -- or it could just be level 3 conventionally defined for some subgroup.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Level 4 (0.00 / 0)
This passage is observing the level 3 social construction of "love", taking it as object, which means it's coming from level 4, particularly since it questions how this construction is done {"we just don`t think that what goes on between two people/should be shrouded with mystery."):

"Love crops up quite a lot as something to sing about,
cos most groups make most of their songs about falling in love
or how happy they are to be in love,
you occasionally wonder why these groups do sing about it all the time -
it`s because these groups think there`s something very special about it
either that or else it`s because everybody else sings about it and always has,
you know to burst into song you have to be inspired
and nothing inspires quite like love.

These groups and singers think that they appeal to everyone
by singing about love because apparently everyone has or can love
or so they would have you believe anyway
but these groups seem to go along with what, the belief
that love is deep in everyone`s personality.
I don`t think we`re saying there`s anything wrong with love,
we just don`t think that what goes on between two people
should be shrouded with mystery."



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Pragmatism (4.00 / 2)
Pragmatism is a branch of philosophy started by people like Charles Sanders Peirce and amplified by John Dewey.

Here's a link to Peirce's seminal paper.

The Fixation of Belief (1877)

Then there is the informal meaning of pragmatism which is some general feeling that one should just adapt to circumstances and do what "works".

One could say that the philosophy of pragmatism was a rebuttal of the conventional wisdom of the age which was dogmatism. At the time Christian dogma was the strong alternative frameworks, so in a sense, pragmatism was an attempt to do away with the power of the church.

We have the same debates over and over again. One one side we have those who think that learning from experience and the real world should guide one's life and public policy. On the other side are those who think that following recognized authority is the best way to proceed.

Depending upon one's outlook those who follow the authoritarian view feel that most people are too dumb or easily led to be trusted or that authorities speak with some sort of divine wisdom which should not be questioned.

Robert Altemeyer has studied the authoritarian personality, visit his web site to read his book on the subject:
http://theAuthoritarians.com

He found that there is a strong correlation between those who believe in an authoritarian model and holding "conservative" political ideas. Such people are also less open to new ideas, especially those which contradict what they already believe. For many this has a religious tinge, but there have been others such as those who followed Fascist or Stalinist ideology.

Many such people don't recognize that they have an authoritarian  framing, they just "know" that their ideas are correct and debating with them is pointless, since they are not aware of their own assumptions.

One can have purely philosophical discussions or one can have purely public policy discussions, when they get conflated confusion is the result.


Policies not Politics


Of Course (4.00 / 2)
The "pragmatism" that Obama and those like him invoke has only a nebulous relationship to Peirce, James, Dewey and Mead, and in some ways is even rather opposite.

In my case, I came to James from butting heads with positivists, and as a result, for me, one of the most prominent aspects of pragmatism--related to its pluralism--is that it welcomes a multiplicity of purposes, including those of critical discourses.  Vulgar pragmatism, OTOH is almost as hostile to critical discourse as positivism is.

In fact, they are quite quite limited in the range of purposes they're willing to consider, and thus are quite remote from one of the key sources of pragmatism's power.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This is why (4.00 / 3)
I always require my philosophy of education students to learn not one but TWO related theories at some minimal level of sophistication.  

And why we start with Dewey and fall in love with him, and then spend the rest of the semester slowly watching his beliefs get shaved down to size by the myriad critiques (implicit or explicit) of other theoretical frameworks.  You don't understand a theory until you understand its limitations (but you don't have the right to attack it until you understand why someone might find it convincing).

I actually constructed a framework for what a good, sophisticated academic paper consists of.  It operates on one of two axes, usually both. Either it explores the internal tensions of a point of view, or it explores the external critiques of a point of view.  

Interestingly enough, in a multidisciplinary field like mine, theory gets very short shrift.  I imagine it like a big bookshelf of possible theories with students going up to it and saying, hmm. . . this one?  No.  This one? No. Oh, hey, what about this one!  With little or no understanding of the plusses or minuses of the particular framework they have chosen (or of the internal complexities).  

Interestingly enough, there was a "study" (pretty "back of the notebook") that showed that the top education departments were those with the strongest "foundations" departments--e.g., the ones that actually had some depth of disciplinary sophistication.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


H/T (0.00 / 0)
Sounds like you've got one of those truly rewarding gigs. If I may say so, it also sounds like you deserve it.

[ Parent ]
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