Krugman On "Democracy Now!" Marginalized In The Mainstream

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Mar 24, 2009 at 15:00


Paul Krugman was on Democracy Now! yesterday morning (transcript here), and while much of what he said is well-known to readers of Open Left, it's worth highlighting how appearance there contrasted with his use as mere rhetorical foil on Face the Nation this weekend, during a segment with Austan Goolsbee.  On FTN, his observation that Geithner's plan was "heads I win, tails the taxpayers lose" was quoted, only to tee up Goolsebee's talking point "refutation".  There was no opportunity for a back-and-forth, which would have left Goolsbee looking like a fool.  On Democracy Now!, naturally, Krugman got the chance to explain just what he meant.  These contrasting appearances provide a telling snapshot of the dismal state of economic discourse in the midst of the greatest crisis since the Great Depression.  First the clip, then more analysis.

AMY GOODMAN: Members of the Obama administration hit the Sunday talk show circuit yesterday to drum up support for the administration's plan to purchase up to a trillion dollars in troubled mortgages and other so-called toxic assets. Austan Goolsbee, a key White House economic adviser, was on Face the Nation. Harry Smith of CBS News quoted from your writing about the administration's plan. This is an excerpt.
    HARRY SMITH: There's been a lot of negative press about this thing that hasn't even been unveiled yet, and Paul Krugman, in his blog today, said, "For the private investors, this is an open invitation to play heads I win, tails the taxpayers lose."

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I don't think that's an accurate description. I mean, if the government doesn't make money, the private sector doesn't make money either. I mean, these guys are coming in in a partnership, and one of the reasons you want to have the partnership is precisely so that, A, the government doesn't massively overpay for these troubled assets that are on the balance sheets, and B, so that everybody's got skin in the game and you don't get into situations where you're paying guys for failure.

AMY GOODMAN: Paul Krugman, your response?

Paul Rosenberg :: Krugman On "Democracy Now!" Marginalized In The Mainstream
PAUL KRUGMAN: The important thing is not the shared equity. I'm sorry, it's hard to avoid lapsing into jargon here. But 85 percent, at least according to the counts over the weekend, 85 percent of the money is going to be a loan from the government, which is a non-recourse loan, which means that it's backed only by the assets that these guys are buying, which means that if the thing loses more than 15 percent of its value, which is highly, you know, possible, given how uncertain these things are worth, then the investors, the private investors, just walk away. So there's-exactly, it's a heads I win, tails you lose. If the stuff-you buy something at $100 and it goes up to $150, you make $50. You buy it at $100 and it goes down to $50, then you only lose $15, because the other $35 gets even [sic: eaten] by the taxpayer. So it's a-it's the same thing.

It's basically what happened with savings and loans in the 1980s. They were deregulated and basically put in the position where the deposits were guaranteed, but the owners of the banks could do whatever they wanted, and so they took these huge risks, and most of the risks turned out bad. But if the risks turned out bad, it was the taxpayers' problem, not the bank owners' problem. Same thing here. They're deliberately setting it up, so that there's this huge incentive to-you know, basically where the upside belongs to the private investors, but most of the downside belongs to you and me.

AMY GOODMAN: So you socialize the debt, you privatize the profit. Why-

PAUL KRUGMAN: Yes, it's-you know, it's, yeah, lemon socialism. The minuses are the taxpayers; the pluses are the private investors.

First off, what should be clear from these two exchanges is that Goolsbee is telling the truth, but he's being deeply deceptive at the same time. Sure it's true that tax payers both win or lose together. But the question is, "How much?"  And the answer is simple: taxpayers take on much more risk, while investors stand to pocket much more profit, as Krugman explains with his more detailed explanation.  And it's precisely that more detailed explanation that's being sidelined in the mainstream political discourse.  (Also worth noting: any investor losses will inevitably be used to write down tax liabilities, so taxpayers will be subsidizing investors at least twice.)  

If these two viewpoints were presented together, then we would have fulfilled the basic preconditions for an infomred public debate, including in the process a potential consensus on the meaning of shared risk--is it any sharing?  Or do there need to be standards of fairness and equity?

Beyond that, of course, Krugman goes on to provide an important historical reference point--the 1980s S&L debacle.  And, of course, this sort of historical contextualizing is absolutely vital in order for public debates to grapple realistically with the alternatives presented.

For a larger-scale overview of what's going on here, it's helpful to consider the framework advanced by media scholar Daniel C. Hallin in his 1986 book The Uncensored War.  Instead of the standard "objective reporting"/"opnion page writing" distinction, Hallin proposed a 3-sphere model:

which Jay Rosen summarized on his PressThink blog back in January:

1.) The sphere of legitimate debate is the one journalists recognize as real, normal, everyday terrain.  They think of their work as taking place almost exclusively within this space. (It doesn't, but they think so.) Hallin: "This is the region of electoral contests and legislative debates, of issues recognized as such by the major established actors of the American political process."

Here the two-party system reigns, and the news agenda is what the people in power are likely to have on their agenda.  Perhaps the purest expression of this sphere is Washington Week on PBS, where journalists discuss what the two-party system defines as "the issues."  Objectivity and balance are "the supreme journalistic virtues" for the panelists on Washington Week because when there is legitimate debate it's hard to know where the truth lies. There are risks in saying that truth lies with one faction in the debate, as against another- even when it does. He said, she said journalism is like the bad seed of this sphere, but also a logical outcome of it.

2. ) The sphere of consensus is the "motherhood and apple pie" of politics, the things on which everyone is thought to agree. Propositions that are seen as uncontroversial to the point of boring, true to the point of self-evident, or so widely-held that they're almost universal lie within this sphere. Here, Hallin writes, "journalists do not feel compelled either to present opposing views or to remain disinterested observers."  (Which means that anyone whose basic views lie outside the sphere of consensus will experience the press not just as biased but savagely so.)

Consensus in American politics begins, of course, with the United States Constitution, but it includes other propositions too, like "Lincoln was a great president," and "it doesn't matter where you come from, you can succeed in America."  Whereas journalists equate ideology with the clash of programs and parties in the debate sphere, academics know that the consensus or background sphere is almost pure ideology: the American creed.

3.) In the sphere of deviance we find "political actors and views which journalists and the political mainstream of society reject as unworthy of being heard."  As in the sphere of consensus, neutrality isn't the watchword here; journalists maintain order by either keeping the deviant out of the news entirely or identifying it within the news frame as unacceptable, radical, or just plain impossible.  The press "plays the role of exposing, condemning, or excluding from the public agenda" the deviant view, says Hallin.  It "marks out and defends the limits of acceptable political conduct."

Anyone whose views lie within the sphere of deviance-as defined by journalists-will experience the press as an opponent in the struggle for recognition. If you don't think separation of church and state is such a good idea; if you do think a single payer system is the way to go; if you dissent from the "lockstep behavior of both major American political parties when it comes to Israel" (Glenn Greenwald) chances are you will never find your views reflected in the news. It's not that there's a one-sided debate; there's no debate.

Rosen goes a little off in the last paragraph when he suggests that who "don't think separation of church and state is such a good idea" are confined to the zone of deviancy.  But overall, he's done a good job of laying out the basics here.  However, that was Hallin's 1986 take, looking back at the Vietnam War era, and obviuosly things are somewhat different now.  Indeed, Rosen's piece was titled "Audience Atomization Overcome: Why the Internet Weakens the Authority of the Press:, and in a bolded summary at the top, Rosen wrote:

In the age of mass media, the press was able to define the sphere of legitimate debate with relative ease because the people on the receiving end were atomized-- connected "up" to Big Media but not across to each other. And now that authority is eroding. I will try to explain why.

So it's useful to look at Paul Krugman, with this particular interchange as a focal point, as an entry point for suggesting how Hollin's model may be changing.  Or course, as Rosen himself noted, there were always more subtleties, the spheres aren't sharply divided by bright neon lines.  But I think that what we're seeing now is more than just an increased blurring of the boundaries.  Krugman is, after all, a Nobel Prize winner.  And so is Joe Stiglitz.  Both have appeared recently on Democracy Now!, which is a kind of program that had no parallel in the Vietnam Era, which certainly isn't part of the system of elite discourse that Hallin's model represents.

And yet, Democracy Now! is prominent enough that it has significant influence, even if it can be officially ignored.  It hosts the kinds of debates also seen widely in the blogosphere, the peaks of which also now show up on Keith Olberman and (especially) Racheal Maddow on MSNBC.  And so there is, in effect, a shadow media system in which there is a very different sphere of legitimate controversy, much as academia has a different such sphere, much of which also intersects with the blogosphere.

Back in 2001, Bush's tax cuts definitely were a matter of "legitimate controversy", and Krugman, as then a rather new presence on the NYT editorial page, weighed in on them.  But despite his prominent place in the media sphere, and despite his professional expertise, the arguments he advanced did not receive the sort of weight one might have expected.  Indeed, the Bush tax cuts passed in a manner that would have, quite frankly, been inconceivable during the Vietnam War Era.  For one things, as Krugman argued, the Bush numbers never did add up.  For another, clearly related to this, Bush refused to even begin discussing his own military budget until after the tax cuts.  Unable to make a sufficient impact through normal means in the elite media, Krugman was reduced to having to write a quickie book, Fuzzy Math, to get his argument out, much as Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 was the only way to raise certain fundamental issues about the Iraq War, which were completely excluded from the realm of elite media.

What all this is leading up to is both simple and complex:  If one is to keep Hallin's 3-sphere model, one finds the likes of Krugman, Stiglitz and other recognized experts (such as Nouriel Rubini) largely confined to the "realm of deviance" despite the fact that their existence cannot be denied.  (The actual contents of their arguments, however, is another matter, as I believe the example shows.)

Therefore, the model, though still useful (far moreso than the charade of objectivity everywhere), is clearly outdated, and needs to be replaced.  That's the simple part.

The complex part is what to replace it with.  And here I have no ready-made answers (I said this part wasn't simple).  But I do have what I hope is a helpful set of suggestions, which I hope to expand on some more this weekend:

    (1) Replace the Hallin's 3-fold division with a more gradiated scale, ala the Oberton Window, which retains the two extremes, but gives more nuance to what lies between.

    (2) Attach these gradations specific issue debates, separately.

    (3) Map these gradations on three different scales--macro, meso- and micro.

    (4) Apply this model at the level of individual media, and develop aggregate models by combining them in different ways for different purposes.

This last suggestion is key, for example, in mapping how Krugman's explanation of his basic argument is, in effect, confined to the realm of deviance on Face The Nation, but lands squarely in the realm of legitimate controversy on Democracy Now!.

"What is the purpose of such a complicated sort of model?" one might well ask.  "Who would even want to implement it, and why?"  My answer right now, since I'm not even proposing a specific model, much less building it, is largely hueristic--that is, it's concerned with how it guides us to think.   Adopting this kind of model will tend to enhance our objectivity, giving us a greater ability to see our own media decisions--as consumers, participants, creators--in the same terms as those we most regularly criticize.

After all, sites like Open Left have their own spheres of consensus and deviance, as well as the more nuanced realms between them.  The sphere of consensus here may be pretty small--we tolerate lots of debates that other progressive sites may be much less welcoming to. But on the other side, we certainly have had our trolls who are banned, roughly defining our sphere of deviance.  And it can't help but be a good thing to be honest and upfront about such things.  The more we can stand outside ourselves--even just in theory--and evaluate what we do in the same terms as we talk about Faux News, Nightline or whatever, then the more reality-based we can hope to become.

Finally, one more basic point: one other reason that Hallin's model is running into problems is that the sphere of consensus itself is shattering.  One way of thinking about hegemony is that it involves the management of the sphere of consensus, and how that, in turn, influences the sphere of legitimate controversy, and defines the sphere of deviance.  But the one-sided hegemonic warfare of the right has significantly reshaped the sphere of consensus. (Rosen's claim that "Consensus in American politics begins, of course, with the United States Constitution," hadly seems meaningful, given how wildly anti-constitutional the GOP has become since the "Gingrich Revolution," Bush v. Gore, etc.)  Now, however, we've entered into a period of party system realignment, and re-redefining the sphere of consensus is one of the things that's typically up for grabs when a new party system is established.


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. (4.00 / 1)
I've only been watching snippets of cable news, but krugman is the only economist i've heard quoted at all on CNN or MSNBC in reference to geithner's plan. I haven't' seen him on any shows though. I've just seen anchors raise the criticisms to an Obama surrogate.

But the real fact is that the media loves a gadfly. Attack Bush from the right, you get publicity (mccain) attack obama from the left you get publicity.


Good Point! (4.00 / 7)
This is what explains (for example) Noam Chomsky's constant appearances on the Newshour, Nightline, the NYT book review etc.



[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
It wouldn't be surprising for Noam Chomsky to attack a democrat. The media is smarter then that. It works like this, every time i heard krugman's criticisms mentioned, it was prefaced with "a supporter of the administration." This way the critique holds more power and the press sounds like it's doing it's job.

[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
in short, Noam Chomsky isn't a gadfly because Noam Chomsky isn't a democrat in the first place

[ Parent ]
True, But (4.00 / 5)
My point is very much about the differences here, and how Krugman's ideas aren't really getting a hearing, even as he's being raised as symbolic figures--who, btw, is sometimes presented simply as echoing GOP criticism, only "from the left."--which, of course, is a complete misrepresentation of Krugman's thinking.

The whole point of this post is precisely how Hallin's model provides a reference point, but is no longer adequate to describe how ideas are managed.  Indeed, it's now quite possible to exclude someone's ideas, while not excluding them, at lest in carefully edited form.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul ... (4.00 / 3)
do you read Calculated Risk?  I ask because just yesterday .. CR made mentioned of a post where the dearly departed Tanta took Goolsbee to school .. and Goolsbee didn't like it one bit ... Goolsbee isn't the sharpie people make him out to be .. he is another Uncle Milty disciple

[ Parent ]
Not Enough (0.00 / 0)
but thanks to your prodding, I'm trying to go there more regularly.  So, I'll check it out.

Keep needling me!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It really does seem to me (4.00 / 8)
that the precise intent in design of the Geithner plan was one of obfuscation. That plan in its current form renders it possible for the likes of Goolsbee to make the sorts of claims he does, which are technically true, while keeping the same basic risk/payoff structure favoring Wall Street underneath it all.

Somehow, I can just imagine the quants on Wall Street coming up with a scheme like this precisely so that it becomes heads I win, tails you lose, while obscuring that feature beneath a flurry of confusing detail and jargon. It isn't hard to come up with such a scheme for the likes of them. Indeed, it rather pales in complexity by comparison to the arcane kinds of credit default swaps scams they invented that made them so filthy rich while destroying the fundamentals of the economy.

What we are only now realizing is that what made those transactions so very profitably was, more than anything else, the layered on complexity that effectively, and likely deliberately, hid the underlying risk.

Really, obfuscation was and is the name of their game. The Geithner plan is more cut from the same cloth.

Krugman must seem like the Devil Incarnate to them, because of his ability to see through the obfuscation to the essential features.  


But Also (4.00 / 5)
Krugman must seem like the Devil Incarnate to them, because of his ability to see through the obfuscation to the essential features.
 

Because (1) he's got a prime media perch, (2) he writes clearly, (3) and can point to clear alternatives, that ordinary people can understand, at least in their broad outlines.

Manipulating a figure such as this into the zone of deviance is a real trick.  And it's precisely the nature relignment politics that makes it so tricky--which includes modes of political communication as part of its implications.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He also is the Devil Incarnate (4.00 / 2)
to many who support Obama without question.

The Neo-Liberals and the Right seek to demonize Krugman.


[ Parent ]
Yeah (4.00 / 6)
This involves outright lies and bogus, unsupported claims, chiefly that:

Krugman supported Hillary.
He doesn't like Obama.
He's naive and ignorant about politics.

Remember, the dispute between Krugman and Obamanation traces back to Krugman's criticizing Obama for making bogus arguments against a health care mandate. He predicted that Obama would eventually be forced to embrace a mandate and that he would be in a weaker political position because of his past criticism. Recently Ezra Klein reported that Obama would support a mandate. (I'm no fan of mandates but provides there's a strong public option I think it'd be a big improvement.)

In any case, Krugman is hardly a hardcore lefty. He's a moderately progressive economist with a prominent platform. That he's become a bete noire to Obama nation should tell us something.


[ Parent ]
Yes. That last point especially. (4.00 / 3)
Krugman is not a leftist.  He is a reform capitalist economist with a realtively moderate position on many issues.  That Obama supporter smust demonize him tells the left what is ahead.

No EFCA.  Health care "reform" without a public option.  And the mainstream blogs cheering on Obama as if there was real change.  


[ Parent ]
Maybe Not, But... (4.00 / 3)
I think that EFCA and a public option are pretty big items, that Obama's unlikely to torpedo.  Much more likely is that we'll have the forms, but not the full-fledged effort to make them work as they should.

See, for example, Thomas Geoghegan's piece in Harpers that David references (and his appearance on Democracy Now! that I link to in a comment, where, among other things, he talks about the other things labor needs to be fighting for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
EFCA dies because of a filibuster. Spector announced opposition. (4.00 / 1)
Obama will verbally support.  Their will be a war over the public option.  Maybe Obama will support it; maybe not.

The neo-liberalism of Giethner has got me down.  Maybe Obama will surprise me.  We'll see.  


[ Parent ]
I Think Obama Realizes (4.00 / 2)
that EFCA is essential for labors' strong support, and that without labors' strong support, his overall agenda will be decimated.  So I expect him to put some real capital into that fight.

Yes, the situation with Giethner is really depressing.  It's part of the worst side of Obama.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I hope you're right. (4.00 / 1)
I think Obama genuinely believes in unions.  

[ Parent ]
Hostages to fortune (0.00 / 0)
From my perspective, Obama's already given far too many. It's not surprising why there's so much Sturm und Drang about who he really is and where he really stands.

Does he in fact see the value of labor? Will he do any more for us than Reagan did for the social conservatives? I don't know, but I have to say that based on the evidence I've seen so far, I'm not as sanguine about it as you are. Like Tom, I'm deeply skeptical, and more than a little worried.


[ Parent ]
Relax (0.00 / 0)
What did Reagan really "give" social conservatives?
Don't forget that movement was growing almost under the radar. Jimmy Carter may have given them more of a feeling of power.
Obama and Biden are behind labor in generals, and going to take the biggest battle in years, pertaining to EFCA.
Again, give the guy some time.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, that was the point (0.00 / 0)
Reagan promised them all sorts of things, but gave 'em zippo, 'cause he actually thought of them as little more than useful idiots. Obama thinks much more highly of us, doesn't he? Doesn't he?

(He already has more time than any of us could grant him, willing or not. I just hope that a year from now, we're not here like two hopeful rabbis, telling each other next year in Jerusalem.)


[ Parent ]
Well, Krugman's His Own Man, Mostly (4.00 / 3)
He's not God.  But he's a decent economist, communicator and critiical thinker, not serving as some political vassal.  Just the sort of person who would supposedly flourish under the new enlightened "return of science" Obama Administration.

Only, not so much.

As Sunstein might put it, he needs to be Nudged off-stage.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's why it's so illustrative of the (4.00 / 1)
real Obama and his "movement."

Krugman is just a mainstream liberal, not a leftist.  Certainly not God.  better than Obama on trade, but not really good.

And yet he dared to critque Obama's choices and brought the hatred of the Obama "cadres" upon him.


[ Parent ]
I think a key (4.00 / 5)
to understanding how the marginalization process works is to grasp how deliberate misinformation and obfuscation is made to operate to marginalize expert opinion in particular.

To dismiss the likes of Krugman, people like Goolsbee require some plausible story that "answers" the objections of a Krugman.

What really has been taking place in the Geithner plan is that essentially the same Wall Street Greed friendly goals have been achieved while providing an answer to the simplest possible interpretation of the objections to the original plan. The obfuscation, again, is entirely deliberate.

In general, marginalizing the considered opinions of well known experts is, as you say, no trivial task.

One way is to brand as "experts" people who already agree with you -- this is a classic technique of the right, who somehow manage to convince a larger audience that, say, Amity Shlaes is an economist as worthy of a hearing as Krugman or Galbraith.

Another, of course, is the always useful ad hominem (Krugman is Shriiiillll! Pay no attention to that man!).

But the obfuscating counterargument plays a central role; even after one has finished with all the ad hominems from however many shills who pretend to be experts, there must be an argument obscuring what's really going down in the objections from opponents who actually know what they are talking about.


[ Parent ]
True--Bad Faith Arguments Need To Be Identified (4.00 / 3)
Along with the bad faith actors who peddle them.  As well as the fools who simply don't know better.  And the problem with Obama is that he seems to have a veritable galaxy of such fools around him.  Sunstein and Goolsbee seem more like such fools than bad faith actors to me.  But I could be wrong.

Regardless, one thing is clear about them: they lack any sort of long-term historical grasp, so whatever arguments they make are immediately suspect in my mind.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting post. (4.00 / 3)
There isn't really anything I disagree with.

As for the new heuristic, it will necessarily be difficult to construct.  This is because different medias have significantly different models.

For example, take blogs.  Blogs are significantly different from media sources like television and radio because of the comments section.  While watchers of TV often have little recourse but to shout at their television screen when they disagree, readers of blogs can put their disagreement on the same page as the original argument itself.

This comments section also leads to different concerns about the sphere of deviance.  You mention how OpenLeft has banned trolls in the past--but some of these trolls were not really making deviant arguments, but making otherwise acceptable/controversial arguments in a vicious tone.  Disagreeing with someone, even vociferously, is fine on OpenLeft.  Insulting someone is not.  This is a matter of tone, not opinions.

Nevertheless, if you ignore these outside differences, there does seem to be a core of media that is the same.  Thus, a kind of heuristic like the one you have in mind does seem to be possible.  It will also obviously be very long.  One thing I would like to note is the following possibility:
"This matter is being discussed/is agreed on in deviant chambers.  It is a deviant discussion/opinion, so we will disagree with it--but we will still report on it."
In other words, the possibility that enough discussion of an otherwise deviant topic can make it significant on to at least be reported.  In other words, exposure can, for these purposes, be considered a less strong form of debate--if the news media reports on an issue, even if they disagree with it, that is still better than them ignoring the issue altogether.

To take an example: If we want the news media to discuss single-payer at all, we must first get them to mention that it is an option people believe in, even if they then proceed to mock it.  With issues, all publicity is good publicity, at least at first.


Good Points All Around (4.00 / 2)
A few scattered responses:

(1) I think it's helpful to get clarification on why folks might be legitimately excluded (chronic disruption in various forms: persistently off-topic, abusive, intentionally provoking personal conflicts, etc.) as opposed to illegitimate exclusion.

Having clear standards is one way to empower others to hold you accountable.  Inviting folks to do this is, in turn, a way to make yourself a more reliable, and hence more valuable source for further information and arbitration of debates.  This, in turn, models better behavior than the dinosaur media displays, and creates pressure for future evolution in a more positive direction.

(2) The difference in different sorts of media clearly means that things will work differently, even though there is convergence going on, as different media commenting on one another provide a much stronger sense of common space than seen in days of yore.  But actually working toward a common analytical framework would mean taking an empirical approach to this, rather than just assuming how things work.  Some blogs, obviously, are far more imperious and top-down than others.  It would be interesting in some far off day when this model might be realized in some sort of operational form, to see if Red State and DKos were more alike, say than Red State and Faux News, or even MTP.

(3) Noting debates can be a means of coverage that keeps things on the margins, that acknowledges existence, while denying intellectual serious, or it can be a transitional phase, leading to eventual inclusion in the realm of legitimate controversy, and maybe a couple of other alternatives as well.  So the dynamic of how treatment changes over time will become something further that should become better able to recognized and discuss.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What frightens me (4.00 / 3)
is how fast the mainstream netroots (many commenters at Dkos) there will marginalize and villify any person who offers a critique of President Obama's plans.  Krugman now is Limbaugh to many there.

Same as FTN.

The mainstream blogs don't crash gates anymore.

Another reason we need Open Left.

I just will not accept any policy Presdient Obama chooses and I will not demonize any one who disagrees with Obama on policy.


The Sort Of Analysis I"m Suggesting (4.00 / 2)
should be helpful in pushing back against that, I would hope. There are certainly many prominent folks over there who recognize that tendency as a problem.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
There are some, (4.00 / 1)
but I have low expectations that it will come from the owner or most of the front pagers.  MB might, a few others see it, but I don't see change there.  I could be wrong.  

[ Parent ]
Meteor Blades Is An Old New Leftist (4.00 / 2)
widely read, with a finely-honed critical consciousness, so he sees a lot more than most.  Others, I think, may need the aid of exposure to the right sort of critical language.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
tom, (4.00 / 1)
i read through the comments section of al giordano/the field's post on dkos last night.  he was basically attacking those who had legitimate problems with geithners plan.

the reactionary vitriol was amazing.  krugman was in need of sex/ a publicity hound/ a pure obama hater/ doesnt understand the black community/ and the list goes on.  not only that but there were some choice words for roubini, galbraith, and anyone else who dare utter a critical word.  

now is the time to think objectively and avoid any knee-jerk partisan reactions.  i could care less how this sets up 2010 or 2012 for the dems.  


[ Parent ]
Actually We SHOULD Care About 2010/2012 (4.00 / 1)
If, after the last 8, 16, 28 years, anyone still thinks that reality-denying politics/policy is a winning strategy, their judgment ought to be severely questioned.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
the question i have is: (0.00 / 0)
would mccain have done anything differently with regards to the corporate elite?  isnt it the same meal served with either party on many critical issues?


[ Parent ]
No, Actually Not (4.00 / 1)
The GOP has run out of ideas--or even the capacity to put two consistent-albeit-old ideas back-to-back. The elite needs the Democrats simply to try to keep them afloat.

That's what's so utterly surreal about the drama as it's unfolding now.  In a very real sense, the Glen Beck Survivalists are the only real alternative the GOP has got.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
yes, i agree. (0.00 / 0)
with a democratic failure we could see the population swing back into the arms of the gop despite their lack of credible candidates.  that could very well happen.  but would that necessarily be a bad thing?  of course they are bankrupt and could engender further bad times for the country as a whole.  but wouldnt this just highlight that both democrats and republicans are failing because in many ways they share the same miserable ideology that just doesnt work.  where can i get a candidate that is not a neoliberal?  where can i get a candidate that is not authoritarian?  the constitution, executive power?

would it not be a good thing for bad times to be a natural consequence of both parties embracing bad policy?  in order that we could have some new parties or candidates finally emerge with some ideas that are heretical to the narrow ideologies of our current batch of senators and D.C. insiders.


[ Parent ]
Unfortunately (0.00 / 0)
History indicates that bad times often lead to fascists taking over and demonizing/killing the Left. Obama is not giving us what we want, but at least it is a little better than what McCain would have given us. And McCain would probably have been a little better than Bush.

But we can't wait for the country to implode and then expect progressives  to then gain an audience. If it really worked that way, then Krugman and Stiglitz would be listened to right now after the massive implosion that we have already suffered. Suffering wakes people up, but we have to build the movement, offer the progressive alternatives, explain them to the public, and pressure Obama to go our way.


[ Parent ]
Exactly. The need to demonize (4.00 / 5)
Krugman, to explain away his critique not on the merits, but because he is bad, a bad person.  

I saw it two years ago among hard core Obama supporters who blogged (spring 2007).  Any criticism had to be destroyed, along with the critic.  I thought then it was internal psychological thing where a few individuals had projected a deep part of theriselves into a fantasy of Obama, and if the perefect fantasy was under attack, they felt under a harsh attack, their very sense of self.  Thus, the critic must be destroyed completely, not for others, but for themselves.  They cannot allow doubt to chip away at the fantasy.

Krugman is a real threat, for he is credentialied in the way that many "creative class" folks value.  Princeton, Ph. D., Nobel Prize.  Even generally liberal.  But not a believer.  So the attacks are full of rage.  Krugman must hate Obama.  He's jealous, etc.

The lack of real intellectual discourse is so telling at the mainstream porgressive blog.  The front pagers are a little better, but I think the mainstream blog is lost.      

I type poorly, so my comments sometimes lack the depth of content they should, but I recognize the intelligence of Paul R., Chris, Mike Lux, and David.  These are progressives, leftists.

The mainstream blog has ended its usefullness to crashing gates and entered an adoration of power phase.

If a real progressive blogosphere is to arise, Open Left may be its spark.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks For Your Kind Words, But (4.00 / 2)
I'm not so down on DKos, partly because I know whence it came.  And given that fact, I look at the role Meteor Blades plays there, for example, and I just can't be that pessimistic about it.

Do I wish it could be free of the sort of dynamic you describe?  Oh, absolutely!  But I still think it does a great deal of good.  You just have to adjust your expectations.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Probably. I need to lower expectations. (4.00 / 2)
Just lately the back pages have driven me crazy.  The silliness over Geithner, Krugman and fantasies that the recession is damn near over now.

It can be a useful place to try to persuade people.  I've used it to promote unions and a labor agenda.

I love Meteor Blades.  A few front pagers are okay, but mainly the front page is bland and cheerleads Dems.  No bite on policy (with a few exceptions).


[ Parent ]
on a philosophical note: (4.00 / 2)
is it impossible to grow large without being co-opted to a certain extent by the machine?  is it a punk rock sort of thing where "that band was great until they got on the radio. now they are sell-outs."  

how to you grow and maintain integrity?

how can you become mainstream and be live in truth simultaneously without changing the very nature of the mainstream?  or does it always change you into it?


[ Parent ]
It is a real issue, but (4.00 / 1)
much there comes from a less leftist ideology of the owner.  

Just as when the Vietnam War ended, many who were in the movement disappeared. Many who opposed the Iraq war were not very leftist.  

Now that Bush is gone and Obama is in, policy matters.  


[ Parent ]
Are you sure? (4.00 / 1)
Now maybe I miss some of the diaries / comments since I live in Europe.

But I did read that diary and the comments and the three recommended diaries and comments dealing with that topic posted the day before.
(I even posted some comments.)

And there were lots of comments defending Krugman, Stiglitz, Roubini etc. Seen from Europe (Germany in my case) the vitriol in some diaries / comments were amazing / alarming.:)
But there were quite a lot of sane / concerned / questioning comments too.

So simply saying that this is accepted wisdom right now at dkos seems wrong to me. And I certainly wouldn´t agree that it comes down only to MB or a few front pagers.

Comments from one of the recommended diaries at dkos today:

"But, it's amazing how virtually the exact same Republican team that put forth  the virtually exact, same bailout 6 mos. ago, is taken to task by Krugman, and we're cheering Krugman onward and upward...then the same team makes the transition over to Obama, and all of the sudden Krugman is the scum of the earth!"

"The way people are going after Krugman (while ignoring the other dozen prominent economists with stellar track records over the last year) is reminding me to the run up to the war, the way people like Hans Blix were treated.

Ignore his arguments. Ignore the facts he bring to the table. Belittle him on made up personal grounds."


[ Parent ]
A deeper concern (4.00 / 1)
Yes, I'd say that the sphere of consensus is at this point is not merely an endangered species, but an entirely chimerical one, from the Separation of Powers to the New York Times Best Seller List. We're just not yet completely disenthralled, and sadly, it isn't ony morons like George Will and William Bennett who can still see the beast. Even Barack Obama swears that it's still out there, and more to the point, so does Ben Bernanke.

Thoughtful people, who, I admit, exist only as an act of faith on my part, worry about this. I'm not always as thoughtful as I might be, but even I don't find a nation of libertarians and autodidacts to be a reassuring proposition.

How do we steer a mass society with no cultural consensus? If everyone reads a different book, associates only with his co-religionists, and adopts a personally-tailored and idiosyncratic set of conspiracy theories, with whom can we talk, and about what?

Help me, Paul. Call Joan Rivers if you have to....


I don't share your concern. (4.00 / 1)
If everyone reads a different book and has different conspiracy theories, obviously, we can argue with each other about why our books and conspiracy theories are the right ones. :P

[ Parent ]
The Illuminatus Trilogy Theory (4.00 / 1)
which, unfortunately, devolved into the X-Files practice.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 3)
There really is a deep historical consensus.  It's just (a) 180 degrees different from what the so-called conservatives claim it to be, and (b) no longer embraced by the elites as their consensus.

That sort of leaves us cast in the role of Winter Soldiers in the Gramscian culture war, as I see it.

How do we steer a mass society with no cultural consensus?

Revolution from below.  Where it always comes from.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ah, yes.... (4.00 / 2)
When things are going well, we call it democracy. When they aren't, we're too busy to call it anything except a fuck of a lot of work.

[ Parent ]
The magic of the marketplace (4.00 / 1)
There is perhaps some opportunity for schadenfreude here, if I can attempt to spell it correctly.

The gate-keepers in the traditional media of newspapers and TV struggle to continue to define what is acceptable within the sphere of legitimate debate. But such severely limited reporting gets to be quite boring, easily tuned out, and therefore vulnerable to erosion of market share when technology allows other media like the blogs to emerge.

In a time of crisis like this, the people pay more attention to the news, seeking information and answers in a time of upheaval. The increased contrast between the facts of the crisis being seen and experienced everywhere, and the same, lame, limited, "legitimate" debate conveyed by the daily papers and the TV news may now be accelerating the demise of parts of the traditional media.

The magic of the marketplace is wiping out some of the most boring and conventional purveyors of the acceptable news.


True, Even As The Unmagic of the Marketplace (4.00 / 2)
(the fact that markets have to be made, and the ad/or other revenue markets supporting alternative media are severely under-developed) means the large-scale die-off--without replacement--of local print journalism, whose quality was actually quite a bit higher then the top-of-the-foodchain guys who got Iraq 100% wrong, for example.

In short, evolution's a bitch.  The extinct just aren't around to complain about it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Great Diary--Some Musings On The Topic (4.00 / 1)
1.  Paul, when I wrote that Lakeoff did not dip his foot into the water far enough, I was referring to the conservative hegemonic structure of the media.  (So, a little clarification; though, I realize this is not the struggle you had with Lakeoff and others' work in the field. It was how to apply some of the different linguistic frames of his work and others into a workable  a model. Again, I know, I am still off a bit. Anyway, I will proceed onto matters pertaing to this specific diary.)

2. As Jay Rosen expanded to some degree and clarified Hallin's model, showed its relevance in the ability--or lack there of--of pushing into the Sphere of Consensus alternate views, different ideas on how to solve different problem. Also, to push a different idealogical viewpoint into the pulbic debate. (Sorry, for the lack of coherency at times, I deal with a cognitive condition. And, in this case, I want to throw some some stuff on the wall, and see if any sticks.)

3.  In the "Audience Atomization Overcome:  Why The Internet Weakens The Presss", it gives one hope but, as we all have witnessed, we are far from making deeper  inroads.  I do not think it cannot be stressed enough, which is the importance of where this theory builds upon. Your observations of what history, moreso who's history is major. For instance, you point to the United States Constitution (what's left of it); and the different prepositions like, "it does not matter where you come from, you can succeed in America". (I think of what Murray Ringold in, I Married A Communist, would think of that simplistic preposition.)

* As an aside. I worry about where that historical context comes from. David posted one of the responses he received yesterday after his Fox New appearance. It was depressing, because there are a good portion of people who think that way. Our myth of individualization and materialization is so woven into the American psyche. The first sentence is absurd: I know where it comes from, I just wonder the breadth and depth of how far the  poisoned, right-wing BS  propaganda traveled in the last 35 years.

4.  Now, I would like to discuss the aforementioned models in regards to Krugman specifically.  This will go in and out of the context of your diary.

    A.  Even if Krugman is 100% correct--which, I think mainly he is--though I think he discounts some of the major political obstacles (60 votes for nationalization, if that is correct, is major) How does get Krugman's plan implemented, if the Obama Administration and the Democratic Congress does not want to "nationalize" the banks? It's not as if Obama and the Democratic Party leaders are unaware of Krugman, Stiglitz, Baker, Roubini, etc. The plan to nationalize the banking and financial institutes has been in the media discource--half-hearted and mocked too often--for the last 2 months. More importantly, they know that the FDIC routinely takes banks into receivership; they know about the S & L Scandal, The Resolution Trust Co., the Great Depression, etc. . . .

   B.  So, in this specific scenario, it does not seem that the media played as important a role compared to Obama, his Economic Team, and Congress in pushing "nationalization" into the Sphere of Consensus.  Actually, they allowed the right-wing noise machine & GOP to paint "nationalization" as socialism, communinism, Marxism, Leninism, etc.--basically unchallenged.  Instead, of "framing the debate" with some of the easiest talking points imaginable: for nationalization to be an option.  Some argue, that this different direction will make it easier for Obama and team to nationalize the banks; due to the process itself and the politics.  I disagree on the political side.  We do not know when Obama's high favorability will start to drop.
And their rhetoric and action, up to this point, mainly have cast nationalization aside--albeit inferences here and there of the possibility.  So, it will be an up-hill battle to get legislation passed through Congress for nationalization (unless Obama does not need the Congress). Regardless, Obama and his team make nationalization seem scary, by their silence.  
Repeat after me: John McCain, S & L Scandal, Nationalization of the Thrifts in 1988!!!

   C.  That said, I am not sure strategically, if it is wise for liberals and progressives to challenge--to put it mildly--Obama on this front to the degree that I see in liberal and progressive media.  Why?  Paraxodically, we will be used as fodder for the MSM and the right-wing propaganda machine: the party is divisive, the "liberal wing" is fed up with Obama, the Democrats; as opposed of being seen as offering different and better solutions.  Obama, members of his administration, and the Democratic Congress are surely aware of exactly how re-structuring of banks work.  Our inner-bickering, lack of support for the Obama administration, in this specific case, blinds us to the other coaltion building we need to do, pertaining other important issues and legislation that need to be done now and in the future.
    I may be wrong. . . but Paul. . . can this be seen as an example of looking at ourselves, our role in public domain, objectively--whether you disagree or agree with my opinion on this matter?

NOTE:  I realize it is important to always question, call out leaders of the Democratic Party for a healthy democracry, but sometimes I think we need to pick and chose our battles. The conservative and GOP top-down and buttoned-up approach serves them better in some of these instances.  Also, I realize this is the issue right now.  



Did I just hear a bigger (4.00 / 1)
opening for the FDIC to take banks into receivership and re-structure them--and possible other financial institutions?

[ Parent ]
I'm Not Sure (4.00 / 1)
what's so bad about being perceived as a significant force.

Do that long enough, and they're going to have to start talking about what we're saying, sooner or later, just to keep the story line going.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I Agree (0.00 / 0)
    Yet, I think we need to plan some of our battles better.  To me, I do not think the Krugmans--experts we prefer--usually the ones that are right--of the world are still not going get their plans enacted, even if they are  constant presences in every media outlet daily. If the President and Democratic Party Leaders do not embrace their plan, it will not materialize.  No matter how hard we fight.  Nationalization has been constant noun in our daily dialogue for the last 6 weeks.  
    If we can't single-payer health-care--even though it is definitely superior--I think we should fight for the next best thing. A choice of an alternative public health-care plan and other improvements.  Right now, we don't have a progressive Democrat Senate.  And we could lean on them, put pressure on them--as Chris has deftly and constructively outlined.  Still, we have to work on what is possible now; and work harder to get what we want when the climate is more ripe.
    I just don't want to see a major firing squad coming from liberals, progressives because we seek more, then wind up with less.  
    That said, obviously, many more experienced and intelligent people on this site who know more than me on the subject. I just think the wrong lobbyists still have to much power in certain areas.

   


[ Parent ]
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