I'm Done Banging My Head Against The Wall

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 22:38


( - promoted by Matt Stoller)

Here are the first four paragraphs of Nedra Pickler's AP dispatch from tonight's Democratic debate:

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton insisted Sunday night it's time to start pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq as she and her Democratic presidential rivals debated the war on the eve of a much-awaited assessment by U.S. commanding Gen. David Petraeus.

In the first presidential debate ever broadcast in Spanish, the protracted war in Iraq competed for attention with the swirling argument over immigration. On Iraq, Gov. Bill Richardson retorted that Clinton and others who want to leave residual forces there would leave soldiers at risk.

"I'd bring them all home within six to eight months," the New Mexico governor said in the debate, which was broadcast on Univision, the nation's largest Spanish-language network. "There is a basic difference between all of us here ... This is a fundamental issue," he said.

Clinton said that a report being presented in Washington by Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker this week won't change the basic problem that there is no military solution in Iraq. "I believe we should start bringing our troops home," she said. "We need to quit refereeing their civil war and bring our troops home as soon as possible.

I tell ya' sometimes I just want to quit. While I am somewhat heartened that the difference Richardson is trying to emphasize is mentioned so early in the story, the article does not bother to explain what that difference is. Instead of providing context, Pickler stenographs Clinton and Richardson. In fact, Clinton sandwiches Richardson on Iraq, as she is credited for "wanting to bring our troops home" both immediately before and immediately after Richardson's unexplained argument on Iraq. This is made all the more infuriating since Richardson's argument is that other Democratic candidates are not going to bring all troops home from Iraq.

There is a debate taking place right now in the progressive ecosystem over Iraq. While pretty much everyone says they want to start bringing troops home, some want to leave no residual forces in Iraq, while others want to leave a varying amount of residual forces in Iraq for varying periods of time. However, it is extremely difficult for those of us who want no residual American military presence in Iraq to make our disagreements on this matter clear when major Democratic presidential campaigns refuse to answer questions on how many troops they will leave in Iraq, and when established media outlets dutifully stenograph those campaigns as "wanting to bring troops home." As far as the former is concerned, I am done asking questions as to how many troops they will leave. Given mounting evidence, it seems entirely reasonable to simply start tagging the most common residual force plans at 40K-60K. As far as the latter is concerned, it is time for established media outlets to start providing context on Democratic stances on Iraq. Most don't want to withdrawal all troops, and it time to start telling the country just that.

As a final note, given my post from last night, I want to point out a more recent redeployment plan put forth by the Center for American Progress. Here it is:



Notice how similar this plan looks to "no residual forces," and how it once again provide troops estimates to go along with specific, proposed missions for American troops? I know that some people think proposing a plan for no residual forces is simply pandering to the base, or something. However, I would like to know what elected office for which the Center for American Progress is running. I know that some people think making troop estimates in Iraq is too hypothetical an exercise. However, it seems like every think thank is willing to do it, and only elected officials / campaigns are wary. Finally, I know that some people think withdrawing all troops from Iraq is naïve. Well, go ahead and tell that to Bill Richardson, or the foreign policy team at the Center for American Progress. Both have tons of foreign policy experience (Richardson has the most of the entire Democratic field, easily), and neither Richardson nor CAP are known as particularly far-left entities. Richardson is a well known libertarian type Democrat, and CAP is often thought of as a Clintonista institution. None of the usual criticisms hold up here.

Basically, at this point, I am done asking campaigns questions about their proposed residual forces in Iraq. If they will not do so on their own, then it is time to start applying numbers to their residual force plans for them. For the standard counter-terrorism, Iraqi security force training, and border / infrastructure / force protection missions, that number should be considered 40K-60K until someone steps up to prove otherwise (and that does not even count American contractors in Iraq). Time is up. I'm done banging my head against a wall on this matter. The campaigns had their chances to answer these questions, and failed in almost every case. I am going to do whatever I can to make sure the Democratic base knows about these residual force plans, and we will see what happens to the primary season as a result.

Chris Bowers :: I'm Done Banging My Head Against The Wall

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Speaking of Head Banging, Chris: (0.00 / 0)
I posted a diary on Daily Kos about an hour ago, featuring you and this whole argument. Here [http://www.dailykos....], if you're interested. My second diary on the subject. Very probably this is due to my approach, but I can't seem to drum up any interest in asking candidates for specific numbers.

I even invented a cute little mnemonic--'thirty by twenty-ten'.


Oh, and in response to my extremely (0.00 / 0)
scientific poll, almost 50% of Kos-dwellers (er, of the 29 who answered) believe 'We should force Bush to withdraw instead of worrying about our candidates' plans.' So maybe that's an answer of sorts ...

[ Parent ]
There is a good discussion over there (0.00 / 0)
In light of your poll question, I should say that one of the reasons I am focusing on this is that I am not very optimistic about ending the war in Congress while Bush is in charge. Never was. Recent developments have made me even less so. Republicans just are not breaking on this. Further, even if Democrats were successful in their plans, there would still be tens of thousands of American troops in Iraq in 2009. So, the way I see it, ending the war requires electing a President who will end the war (I mean really end the war). While I want all of our candidates to become that sort of President, I am willing to settle for nominating a President who will end the war.

Thanks for the diary. I gave it a rec!

[ Parent ]
I absolutely agree (0.00 / 0)
about ending the war in Congress with Bush in charge. In fact, I don't even believe that if, in a sudden show of unity, the Democrats cut funding of the Debacle on a date certain, that would end the war. I'm convinced it wouldn't.

But I think so many progressives are so desperately (and rightly) eager to end the war now, they don't even want to consider that it's gonna be going until the beginning on '09. Which makes it hard to plan for the long term.

And thanks for the rec! I'm going to continue to refine that diary, and re-post every few days. (Next version: heavy on the  CAP.) This seems to be one of the most important questions we can ask our candidates right now. What I really should do is focus on one candidate at a time, like "Obama wants to leave 40,000 troops in Iraq!" and "Edwards plans to continue war with 20,000 troops!' to guarantee readership. But I haven't the stomach for that.


[ Parent ]
making HRC answer that question (0.00 / 0)
is divisive, irrational anti-Clintonism and reinforcement of Republican talking points about weak, divided and idea-challenged Democrats.  Or something like that ...

The utter failure of the Richardson campaign in every other area BUT Iraq is the worst thing that could have happened to the Dem primary.  Without him, even WE wouldn't be yelling about residual force.  HRC probably believes the residual force argument, Obama - who knows?  Edwards apparently is still listening to the jackasses who talked him into the AUMF.

The whole argument looks a lot different when you put it this way:

Troops in Iraq 1/1/2010:

GWB - 150,000
HRC - 60,000+
Richardson - 0

Chris, you can achieve psychic balance by banging your head against the opposite wall (campaign finance reform) for awhile. 


[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
Asking Clinton to answer the same question as all the other candidates is anti-Clintonism? I suspect you're being snarky and I'm too tired to understand. Please excuse. On the other hand, in regards the argument looking a lot different if you pretend Bush might be president on 1/1/10, underestimate the number of troops Richardson would leave (at least by Chris's calculations), and ignore every other candidate: huh?

[ Parent ]
snark misfire (4.00 / 2)
shorter version: Me too.

[ Parent ]
On the upside, (4.00 / 2)
the Times polled on residual forces (q.81). Not with, you know, numbers and time frames and stuff. But the idea is starting to get some traction if they're polling it.

i agree (0.00 / 0)
There's real progress here, and I think you're about 3-6 months ahead of the activist base.

[ Parent ]
V. interesting, thanks. (0.00 / 0)
Now if we only knew what 'some troops' meant, we'd be onto something!


[ Parent ]
Vietnam days: U.S. Out Now! (0.00 / 0)
Back in the 60's, the anti-war movement was all over the place tactically, from burning down ROTC buildings to "neat and clean for Eugene!"  But there was no bullshit about residual forces, or how fast how many troops could be shipped on how many boats.  Let Johnson or Nixon or McGovern figure out the details.  The across-the-board position was Out Now!

KISS.

Right on, Chris.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Force the Candidates to Take a Stand by Putting the Issue on the Ballot (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

I appreciate your frustration over getting candidates to say exactly how many, if any, troops they would leave in Iraq, especially to specify the number of residual troops they support leaving there. Unfortunately, candidate elections are about candidates, they are not primarily about a single issue, even an issue as overriding as Iraq. That means that Clinton can rely on her electability and her name recognition and experience to become the presidential nominee, even when she has a position that's out of step with the majority of Democratic primary voters. If you want to have an election hinge on an issue, to get a real debate going on Iraq withdrawal plans, there's no shortcut to putting the issue directly to the voters.

The best way to force the presidential candidates to take a position on the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq-that's all troops--is through statewide referendums calling for the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq within a year. Almost everywhere in local elections that withdrawal from Iraq has been put to voters in the past few years, it has been approved.

There are eleven states that can do this now: they have Democratic governors, Democratic legislatures, and the initiative process. Those measures can be placed on the ballot in many of those states before the primary elections there. With maybe one or two exceptions, the timeline to get something on the ballot is such that these measures would be on the November 2008 ballot.  Once the withdrawal of all U.S. troops is on the ballot, the presidential candidates will be forced to take a stand on the issue, pro or con, during those state's primaries, and thus generally. There has to be a downside for Hillary Clinton in particular, as well as for Edwards and Obama, in evading this issue. (Although there's no guarantee that such measures would call for all troops to be withdrawn, putting measures on the ballot that called for residual troops would be unlikely because it would be tantamount to calling for continuing the war. More likely, if the Democratic legislators in a particular state supported residual troops, they would evade the issue by not placing a measure on the ballot.) 

In addition, there are thirteen other states that have initiative processes in which a measure can be placed on the ballot through petition signatures, and those would certainly call for all troops to be withdrawn. In short, almost half the states could have such initiatives on the ballot. The petition gathering process can begin in those states before the primary elections there, likewise putting pressure on the presidential candidates to take a stand.

In one state with a Democratic legislature and a Republican governor, California, the legislature has approved an Iraq referendum, and it's on the governor's desk. Even if Governor Schwarzenegger rejects the measure, there's a good chance it will be placed on the ballot by gathering signatures.

The candidate who gets out first supporting such measures (or better yet, encourages their placement on the ballot) will garner a lot of support. Further, passage of these initiatives would "bind"-as much as is possible in our system-the eventual winner to pull out of Iraq, and not leave residual troops. And it would go some way to asserting the popular will against the foreign policy consensus and the Washington think tanks. If ever there was a time in which the independent voice of the people needed to be heard on an issue, it's now.

Something similar happened in 1982, which is why I know it can work. The nuclear freeze initiative to halt the nuclear arms race was on the ballot in eleven states and was approved in ten of them. This forced President Reagan to moderate his rhetoric on the Soviet Union and to negotiate with them. And the relaxation of tensions in turn allowed President Gorbachev to feel safe enough to let Eastern Europe go, thus leading to the end of the Cold War.

If you'd like to see a longer proposal along these lines, write me at jraymond@ojai.net.



This is an idea I like (0.00 / 0)
The candidates probably won't be enthusiastic about giving a straight answer here, but given that progresssives are all but shut out of the think tank circuit, it's one of the few ways for local activists to make their voices heard.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
speaking of head banging ... (0.00 / 0)
why, again, should Richardson's vow be taken at face value? You kind of trailed off there after "I would like to know what elected office for which CAP is running."

I'm not disposed one way or another towards Richardson, but considering that he's getting mostly switch-hitting Clinton money (or has historically), is notably out of sync with mainstream liberals on issues closer to home ("pro growth Dem .."), and is in fourth place and effectively always fighting for relevance, even if he is in his own tier--why do you think he would go through with that promise?

I like it how CAP has a nice little "Residual forces in Iraq: 1K," and then has a "Turkey or northern Iraq: 10K," conveniently omitting the fact that Turkey has swung hard against the United States in recent years, and didn't even give the United States any forward bases for a northern prong of the original invasion of Iraq.

The idea that American forces will be based in Turkey is a purely political palliative designed to minimize the residual forces in Iraq number, because number of troops in Iraq has become the sole benchmark of the antiwar crowd. It's a fantasy. You can notch the residual number up to 11K right now.

Also, IF there are friendly parts of Iraq where soldiers can be stationed (as a regional stabilizing influence, ie to beat the crap out of an overt Iranian invasion, without day to day pacifications as has been US policy), it makes a lot more sense to put them *there* than to move them to Kuwait. Kurdistan certainly fits that bill, and Sunni Iraq has moved substantially in that direction as well, commensurate with US alienation from Shiite Iraqis.

(The people preaching success in Anbar are correct -- they just aren't mentioning that as Iraq's 20% Sunnis have warmed quite a bit to the US, its 60% of Shiites have become bitter enemies.)

Conventional forces do nothing sitting in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is more of a cartel-war situation anyway (the Taliban should probably be thought of as analogous to FARC by now). Plunking 20,000 US troops down there is probably going to be counterproductive. Either send them home or put them in Kurdistan or Anbar. Conventional armies have never been successful in Afghanistan and probably never will.


Kuwait makes sense (0.00 / 0)
If you're worried about an Iranian invasion (and personally I'm not, as they really have no need to be so unsubtle) then forces in Kuwait are a good idea. Sure, a deployment in Kurdistan can cover the north, but it's not much use for southern Iraq. And whilst southern Iraq is a lot more peaceful than the Baghdad area - 3 of the 4 most southerly provinces have been returned to Iraqi control and though the situation in Basra has degenerated, it's better than in most of the country - Kuwait doesn't have insurgents or gangs getting prestige from attacks on coalition forces, so it's the best place for a base.

Turkey might actually be a possible now, particularly as their actions in 2003 were based on fear of Kurdish independence. The AKP is a lot more pro-west than it gets credit for. Also, it badly needs to cosy up to Sarkozy if it wants to get closer to joining the EU and Sarkozy seems to be pushing a mild interventionist policy, so there's potential for pressure there.

That said, a deployment in Kurdistan might be a better idea anyway, as redeployment into Turkey could easily be used to try and pressure the Russians, which is the last thing the world needs.

And I actually disagree about Afghanistan. The major problem there (at least in Helmand, where most of the heroin comes from) is that the troops are too busy fighting to do much reconstruction. British units especially are very overstretched. Whilst we still need a set policy on how to deal with the poppy crop (and in the longer term on how to deal with the warlords who stop there being a real Afghan state) it would certainly help if the Taliban's attacks could be blunted enough for plans to be carried out (although finishing the Taliban as an effective force would require huge deployments in north-west Pakistan too, which isn't likely.)

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
valid points (0.00 / 0)
I was using "invasion" as the doomsday scenario, exaggerating to make my larger point clear. What I mean is overt moves by Iran to pull southern Iraq dramatically closer to Teheran than Baghdad, for example some kind of free trade agreement or subsidy arrangement with Shia state governments to the exclusion of Sunni and Kurdish ones. Or something like that.

I don't envision any Republican or Democrat putting any troops in Shia southern Iraq. Southern Iraq hasn't been peaceful recently due to Shia infighting, but if American troops showed up en masse it would get insanely confusing and unpredictable. American troops would need to be close enough to interdict overt Iranian aggression but not close enough to be mixing it up with hostile locals all the time.

Therefore, the US should be as close as possible to Shia Iraq without actually being there. Therefore, "Sunnistan" and Kurdistan. Deploying troops to Kuwait would not only be intensely irritating to the Kuwaiti government, but it would also be pointless.

I am sure Richardson is aware of this. He isn't going to "get out of the Middle East," and even if he did, presidents have a lot less control over policy than people believe they do, and so many bureaucracies are so invested in the Middle East that they would basically wait out Richardson or anyone else similarly pie in the sky.

Afghanistan is a byproduct of drug war idiocy. It's going to be a bunch of heroin kingpins fighting it out via various proxies, especially ex-Taliban, for as long as the United States thinks it can globalize Plan Colombia. (Why doesn't anybody ask the Plan Colombia crowd what the hell happened to Mexico during Plan Colombia? The cartels simply shifted to Mexico, and made a country twice as big as Colombia a lot worse than Colombia was in the late 90s. But that's a different rant.)

The Afghan government already is pretty much owned by heroin. The sooner the pretense ends, the sooner Afghanistan will bear a remote resemblance to a "normal" country.

Unfortunately, baby boomers are too stupid to figure that out.


[ Parent ]
No idea if anybody's still reading this (0.00 / 0)
The conversation has moved on, but I only just noticed your reply and there are some interesting points in there that I'd like to comment on.

Firstly, whilst Anbar has been a success and relations between the US and Shia leaders have suffered, last I checked the numbers significantly more Sunni than Shia supported attacks on US troops, so I personally wouldn't be putting troop bases in "Sunnistan", or the Sunni triangle, or whatever the correct term for that bit of Mesopotamia is.

That said, I agree a sizeable deployment in southern Iraq would rock the boat. I believe Kuwait has permanent US bases already, so that might be an option. In truth though you can't keep southern Iraq entirely out of an Iranian orbit. A potentially more profitable approach would be to pursue detente with Iran and make this possibility less worrying. Failing that, I don't see any recourse beyond the old and rather immoral method of lawyers, guns and money.

As to Afghanistan, I agree Plan Colombia isn't an option. In fact, we don't want Afghanistan to end up being anything like Colombia, because the Taliban could be about ten times worse than FARC have ever been or will ever be. That said, in Afghanistan the problem is wider than that. The Karzai government is powerless because it has no powerbase, since the 2001 war was conducted using the Northern Alliance, a grouping which would have been possibly the most offensively reactionary group of bastards on the continent if it wasn't for the Taliban.

How you weaken Dostum and co. enough to give Afghanistan a route to a stable semi-democracy within the next 30 years is a question I can't answer, but that's at least as important as stopping the Taliban. If we can make Afghanistan another Turkey we'll stop the Taliban ever coming back. If we can't, the problems there are only going to get worse.

Do you know of anywhere in the blogosphere that focuses on Afghanistan? It's a question that interests me because in 2001 there was so much potential, but lack of interest and focus on Iraq slowed reconstruction to such an extent that we've lost too many hearts and minds for the road back to be anything but horribly difficult.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
plans (4.00 / 2)
So you have two plans, one from CNAS and one from CAP, both organizations are closely aligned with Clinton. Both plans follow the broad outlines from Clinton and Obama, which, of course, follow the ISG. As does the Clinton-Byrd legislation.

Why do you assume CNAS is the Obama/Clinton plan instead of CAP? CNAS is "nonpartisan" and aspires "to transcend the current campaign mode", so perhaps Obamaesque, while CAP is explicitly Democratic and thus Hillaryish. Or Korb at CAP talks to Obama and a bunch of CNAS people worked in the Clinton WH. Or Hagel at CNAS works with Obama while Clinton lined up funding for CAP... Maybe the candidates won't know the best course for 2009 until we are closer to it.

You seem to desire that Edwards or Obama commit to a course of action now not because they know what our situation will be in January 2009 but merely for political advantage over Clinton. Is that a smart national security move for a candidate?


Not quite. (4.00 / 1)
I'd look at it this way: two Clinton-aligned organizations and a Clinton-friendly candidate are pushing this plan.  What does that do?  By setting this as an outside marker, it blurs the distinctions between C/E/O.  And who does that help?  Clinton.

[ Parent ]
great diary (0.00 / 0)
If they won't speak up you should point out what they are saying.

It was doing neither your head nor the wall any good (4.00 / 1)
First, I reiterate this from yesterday: http://www.openleft....

Second, you are making way, way too much out of this plan.  Look, let me show you another plan.  Just substitute these numbers into the above:

Turkey or Northern Iraq: 0
Kuwait: 0
Afghanistan: 0
Residual force: 27
Return to U.S.: 169,973

See, I've now gone even further than CAP!  (Wish I could figure out how to get those last 27 out, but I can't.)  What I haven't done, though, is explain why any of the above specific levels are either necessary to meet or sufficient to address any of the contingencies that may occur between now and January 2009 (or, more to the point, between November 7, 2008.)  The numbers I've chosen, and those that CAP has chosen, are pretty arbitrary, except where limited by how much of our troop presence Kuwait, Kurdistan, Turkey or Iraq will accept and how much we want to fund.  And we simply don't know that yet without being much closer to the time.  What we should be able to agree on is that the number for Iraq should, if things don't change, be as close to zero as possible, and the others only as high as necessary to serve our legitimate interests in the region, which we should keep as low as reasonably possible.

I do appreciate Korb and CAP arguing that this can be done -- though, of course, the test of their plan is whether one believes that the numbers they provide do suffice to serve our interests in the region, which is a fair topic to debate -- but the plan's specific numerical targets simply do not matter as much as the underlying philosophy as expressed above.

Richardson may believe that a zero troop level is required by the Bible and the Constitution, but so far his pandering experience has governed his campaign actions more than his foreign policy experience, and this seems to be the fruit of the former.  He not only doesn't get credit over someone endorsing the notion in the boldfaced section above, he gets demerits for claiming that his willingness to pander by waving the magic number "0" is a "basic difference" between him and the other candidates.

I share in your apprehension that Hillary will triangulate and equivocate in office more than the more trustworthy D/O/E trio.  If so, the strategy ought to be to ask her specific questions about hypotheticals, and for the other candidates to offer specific contingency plans tied to something like the boldfaced section above, that will force her to either tie herself to those contingent commitments or to equivocate (and hopefully suffer for it if she does.)  We do need to highlight the differences between Hillary and D/O/E, but the path you've chosen won't do the trick, because the difference between pledging a definite quick date and near-zero number for troop reduction now, versus allowing for some flexibility as future events dictate, simply is not that important -- and to the extent it is important it doesn't actually favor those who do the former.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.


More Head-Banging... (4.00 / 1)
Right, pointing out the differences between the candidates' Iraq War plans is absolutely necessary. But so is asking, "Then what?"

We pull out the troops. Then what?

Troop withdrawal has to be part of a larger strategy - not the sole strategy. I start banging my head when people say "End the War" as if pulling US troops out of Iraq will end the war there. It won't.

The U.S. has to give up its self-claimed right to control the future of Iraq. That's number one. It has to invite other nations to propose solutions, and open up economic development opportunities to the Iraqi people and to other nations - ideally Muslim nations.

Essentially, what we need is a Peace Plan or something similar to the Marshall Plan, which called on the international community to help rebuild Europe.

Yes, we have to bring home the troops. Then what? I'd like to hear the candidates talk about this next step. Given that most voters would prefer to NOT leave Iraq a mess, I think the candidate who can best answer this question can change the debate on Iraq. It won't be about whether to bring home the troops - that will be obvious - but how to bring peace to the country.

 


What would a Republican do? (0.00 / 0)
ALL the Deomcratic candidates are pandering, er... nuanced

None of the main candidates are going to stray very far from a politically safe line. There's no practical difference between Clinton stating "it's time to start", Richardson saying "six to eight months", and even Kicinich with a clear anti-war position. I say this because a Democratic win a year from now isn't going to give us a "magical 2009".

I mean, I agree with the goal, but there is no way Richardson could accomplish a six month exit. It just isn't possible. So, why doesn't he tell me something I can believe.

Immediate withdrawal is a brick wall. I think we have to back up and look at the situation more strategically. How about considering "What would a Republican do?" if handed a paradigm shifting issue like Iraq.

First, they would be using the Iraq war to bludgeon the bejeesus out of their opponents. Never mind the facts, it would be a god-given rape and pillage opportunity (so to speak).

Second, they would be using the cover of the slash and burn to be pushing their domestic agenda. Loudly proclaiming TERRORISM! IRAQ! NUCLEAR WAR, they would quietly be cutting taxes on the wealthy and stacking the Supreme Court.

Third, they would be using the issue to get right-wing extremists elected up and down the ticket.

Wait a minute! That's just what they did.

Therefore, my issue isn't whether the Democratic candidates have the "right" number of residual troops, that will come with time and the slower slog of diplomatic progress. You know the foreign policy elite and "national interests" will drag their feet, no matter which Democrat wins. Getting out of Iraq means shifting US foriegn policy interests, which requires a shift in Congress. I don't mean getting Democrats with more cojones, but Democrats with a different value system.

Why aren't the Democrats driving the issue to discredit Republicans up and down the ticket?

Why isn't the Iraq issue driving Congressional races and primaries?

Out-of-Iraq is an issue that plays everywhere. Why isn't it political suicide to support the war? Why isn't it political suicide to be soft on getting out?


I don't follow the numbers frame ... (0.00 / 0)
... since it means that a plan to bring down force levels as a prelude to bringing all parties to the negotiating table is necessarily disadvantaged. That is, if the degree of American involvement in reconstruction is subject to negotiation, and American forces would be required to protect Americans involved in reconstruction, then the plan could not dictate numbers for that mission.

I mean, I understand the political appeal of demanding that candidates declare a firm position that is entirely independent of the outcome of multilateral negotiations, but it seems that a disdain for multilateral negotiations is one of the things that brought us to the present state of affairs.


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