Polling Data Shows What?

by: brklyngrl

Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 14:24


If Doug Schoen has data showing the American public prefers that Democrats work with Republicans even if it means not ending the war (which it does), he should show it to us.

Otherwise I'm going to be forced to conclude that he's lumping a bunch of unrelated findings together to arrive at the conclusion he himself prefers. Last week, Pew made the 'ambivalent' version of the argument that public opinion doesn't support ending the war. This week, Schoen makes the 'bipartisanship' version. It's a through-the-looking-glass inverse of Chris's amazing series of posts about the forthcoming Republican blurring strategy. Schoen apparently supports this strategy wholeheartedly.

Schoen uses some pieces of the ambivalent argument that Pew made. Such as here:

The electorate has had it with the war in Iraq -- close to two thirds want an orderly withdrawal of troops to begin immediately. That being said, the American people understand that to withdrawal completely and unilaterally without a clear strategy for pacifying the country is risky.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that those two findings are related in the way Schoen (or Pew) implies they are. It's at least equally plausible that Americans are telling pollsters that they recognize the risks of withdrawal, but still want to withdraw.

More unrelated findings from Schoen:

Polling from Penn Schoen & Berland shows a strong desire for the parties to work together to develop coherent, long term strategies to fight terrorism and protect American interests around the world.

Right now, Democrats clearly have the '08 advantage. The American people are fed up with George Bush and the Republicans. Democrats have opened up double-digit leads on party identification and the generic congressional vote.

But the Democratic Party is also vulnerable on Iraq, where the lead over the Republicans dropped 10 percent in August to a narrow four percent margin. Rather than harp on the withdrawal, the Democrats should continue to strike a bipartisan tone and refocus the debate to other international and domestic issues. This will help them carry the day in November 2008.

Again, the relationship between these findings is unclear. If the question Schoen refers to in the first paragraph quoted above was some variation of "would you prefer the parties to work together to accomplish America's goals, or would you prefer that they don't?" I'm sure a vast majority did say they preferred that the parties work together. Who would say no to that? But unless his polling question actually was a variation on "would you prefer that the Democrats give Bush another blank check for Iraq, or would you prefer that Democrats force Bush to end the war?" I'm not sure why the finding is relevant. Also, last week's ABC/Washington Post poll finds an 11 point gap in public trust on Iraq favoring Democrats. 42% of those surveyed say they trust Democrats to "do a better job handling Iraq" compared to 31% who trust Republicans. Almost 20% say they trust neither party - and that number has almost doubled in the last year. I couldn't find cross-tabs by party identification for that question, but I'd guess a fair fraction of those who trust neither party are the same disgruntled Democrats responsible for low Congressional approval ratings. Last, Iraq is the single most important issue for a plurality of the electorate. Ignoring the most important issue of our time to focus on other priorities is a recipe for electoral disaster. Why would anyone think that ducking debate on the issue that's most important to voters, especially when they agree with you, is a good idea? It baffles me.

Public opinion has turned decisively against the war. Vast majorities say they want to withdraw now or on a timeline that is almost indistinguishable logistically from now. Unless there is some indication that Republicans are willing to work to actually end the war, rather than work to keep it going while pretending to end it, there is no basis for bipartisanship. Those Democrats who want to end the war will have to do so without Republican support. This is an issue where Democrats can succeed by giving the public exactly what they want. It's not complicated.

Jane Hamsher at Firedoglake has more.

brklyngrl :: Polling Data Shows What?

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Recipe for Losing in 2008 (0.00 / 0)
Great post brklyngrl.

Even Fox News/Opinion Research polls show that 64%  of the American public want US troops out of Iraq by next summer.

"Looking ahead to next steps, Americans generally think the United States should withdraw troops from Iraq. Some 22 percent think the U.S. should pull out all troops immediately, up from 12 percent in January, and 42 percent say we should pull out troops gradually over the next year."
"FOX News Poll: Bush Approval Up; Nearly Half of Americans Think Surge Helped in Iraq," September 13, 2007
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296712,00.html

A Previous Fox News/Opinion Research Poll:
"Even though half of the public believes the troop surge has helped the situation in Iraq, and a sizable majority thinks Iraq will likely become a base for terrorism if troops leave prematurely, a new FOX News poll shows that by almost two-to-one Americans support withdrawing troops by April 2008."
"FOX News Poll: Even With Surge Improvements, Most Want U.S. Out Of Iraq", July 19, 2007
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289976,00.html

If US troops are still in Iraq in November 2008, any politician who has not worked assiduously to get them out -- including cutting off funding and urging others to cut off funding -- will have a hard time garnering much support from the American people, especially from progressives. Only the most ignorant Americans -- including those who think Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks -- still support Bush's fiasco. Following Schoen's advice is a good way to ensure that Democrats lose in 2008.

Right now, we need to lobby Congress hard for a funding cutoff. Send in those letters.


Check Out SourceWatch On These Guys! (4.00 / 1)
I'm going to pass on being superclever this time out.  I'll let my fingers do the talking...

SourceWatch says:

According to Washington Business Forward, PSB's "reputation is largely as a Democratic political polling firm, closely associated with both President Bill Clinton's administration as well as the Senate campaign of his wife Hillary. But the firm also worked for Republican Michael Bloomberg in his mayoral bid in New York City, generating huge fees from the multi-millionaire self-financed candidate that caught some press attention during the campaign. ... Major corporate clients over the years have included AT&T, Coca-Cola, American Express, BP, Novartis and Microsoft."[5][6]

PSB's Mark Penn and Peter Brodnitz have registered as working for the Central American Bank for Economic Integration through contract with Holland & Knight, LLP.[7]

PSB and the 2004 Venezuelan recall election

PSB received negative attention for polling it did during the August 2004 Venezuelan recall election of President Hugo Chavez:[8]

      "Exit Poll Results Show Major Defeat for Chavez" the survey, conducted by Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, asserted even as Sunday's voting was still on. But in fact, the opposite was true - Chavez ended up trouncing his enemies and capturing 59 percent of the vote.

    PSB's Venezuela poll raised eyebrows for several reasons: the opposition to Hugo Chavez seized upon it as proof that "the results from the vote itself were fraudulent"; the poll results "were sent out by fax and e-mail to media outlets and opposition offices more than four hours before polls closed," in violation of Venezuelan law; "members of Sumate, a Venezuelan group that helped organize the recall initiative, [did] the fieldwork for the poll"; and remarks to media went beyond poll results and analysis to election commentary - Mark Penn told Associated Press that Doug Schoen "believes there were more problems with the voting than with the exit poll."[9]

PSB and the Serbian elections in 2000

Interestingly, PSB was involved in similar charges of "American political interference in Serbia, locus of a $77 million U.S. effort to do with ballots what NATO bombs could not--get rid of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. In the run-up to national elections on Sept. 24, U.S. aid officials and contractors are working to strengthen Serbia's famously fractured democratic opposition. They have helped train its organizers, equipped their offices with computers and fax machines and provided opposition parties with sophisticated voter surveys compiled by the same New York firm that conducts polls for President Clinton" -- PSB.[10]

Jonathan Mowat has a more incisive appraisal of PSB as follows:

      Penn, Schoen and Berland (PSB) has played a pioneering role in the use of polling operations, especially "exit polls," in facilitating coups. Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support. The group began work in Serbia during the period that its principle, Mark Penn, was President Clinton's top political advisor.[11]

"Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support."

Well, of course, they'd never dream of doing that here, right?

There's more, but that's why God invented links

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Wow! Thanks for the tip. (0.00 / 0)
No, of course they would never think of doing that here! Blasphemy!

I'm really intrigued right now with the role pollsters and polling firms are playing in pushing the insider conventional wisdom. No surprise really, but because it has the veneer of 'science'...


[ Parent ]
Again, Another Reason We Should Be Doing Our Own Polling (0.00 / 0)
Preferrably, of course, as part of a battleground district organizing project.

With the highest level of transparency, just like the MyDD poll

Two can play that game.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
War Opponents Are Not Fungible (0.00 / 0)
As I have noted in the past, polling data suggests that the clear American majority opposed to the war in Iraq is heavily weighted toward a gradual withdrawal on a timetable (I think that within a year is a range that fits most people's mood) vs. immediate withdrawal.

My hypothesis is that Americans generally don't want a rapid removal of troops that feels like a retreat.  What they will support is an orderly withdrawal that feels like it was planned in advance.  Whether that is incremental withdrawal over the span of a year or a quicker draw down to a much smaller residual force that will be pulled out after a year is up to the politicians.  People are confusing a quick withdrawal with a complete withdrawal.

P.S. I'm having trouble remembering where I found it, but I distinctly recall that African-Americans were the one group who responded clearly that they didn't want Democrats to work with Bush and the Republicans (or as I put it, black people hate George W. Bush).


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


I don't disagree. (0.00 / 0)
On the other hand, in survey research generally there are clear biases for people to select the middle option (if there is one). Intriguingly, there is an ongoing (unresolved) discussion about whether African Americans are (as a group) less likely to select a middle option than white people. Often, the set of answers are framed as a list with the 'bipartisan' option in the middle. Also, using the word immediately (rather than a time frame) seems to make a difference.

I am looking into this now, and hope to write more about it soon, but I am hesitant to get too far ahead of myself. I want to do the research first!


[ Parent ]
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