Clark?! What?! (0.00 / 0)

No no no, this makes no sense. How does Clark, the netroot's darling from '04 due to his stance on Iraq, stand with Hillary, the one who'll half-pull us out of Iraq in '08?! This is the biggest shock to me of the campaign so far. I'm an old guard BOPNewser, who's read Stoller et. al. since the start, and I can't believe that the bad primary/dark horse of '04 not-named-Dean is backing the establishment candidate. Is VoteVeterans.org that desperate for cash? B/c I can't see it any other way.

Petraeus, who 10 years ago understood as much about occupations as Clark did before his thirst for a medal or another star kicked in, at least has an excuse. He was fast-tracked as the September scapegoat for Bush and the rest of the GOP candidates nonsensical escalation policy. Clark, though - seriously, wtf? Bad campaigning or whatnot, he was the real maverick deal, regardless of how much McCain wants to worship the escalation.

I respected Wesley Clark so much since '04, and, given that I'm 23, he's pretty much my #1 dream candidate in the same way many NH-ites feel about Gore. All I know is that I've read Stirling Newberry's latest piece about the idiocy of halfway backing out of Iraq combined with no real change in economic policy, and I get the sense that at worst Hillary is shaping up to be a 1968 Dem candidate sans tear gas. Like Chris Bowers said about (sp) Jean Shaheen in NH (a state where we could use a great progessive like Buckey to improve our primaries), the only reason 06 and 08 are in play for Dems is b/c of grass-and-net-roots level activism, and we shouldn't, for once in our lives, play to the lesser of 2 evils.

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by: DupinTM @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 15:39:51 PM CDT

Arrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh.... (4.00 / 1)

Clark was No. 2 on my list in 2004, and I have great respect for what he has said regarding foreign policy in general, his on-the-ground support for Democratic candidates in 2006, his opposition to Bush Iran policy and his self-education on the domestic issues he was so weak on three years ago.

But Clark has been wrong on Iraq, as I first noted in Timetables and A Tale of Two Generals.

Not wrong on what a Democratic president should do were one in power, but on what Democrats out of power should do. He was wrong in 2005 when he publicly dissed Russ Feingold's withdrawal proposal and simultaneously urged the Out of Iraq Caucus to chill its jets. And he has continued to be wrong in that regard ever since, doing a great deal to advance us just one more Friedman Unit down the road at every crux point instead of supporting confrontation with Mister Bush every step of the way.

There is little question in my view that his endorsement will be the biggest one going until Edwards and Obama ring in with theirs sometime in mid- to late-February. It's over. It's going to be, I am devastated but not surprised to say, Hillary Clinton against whomever the GOP coalesces around.

If she wins the general, which seems more likely than not, it means, most probably, significant numbers of residual troops in Iraq for at least another five years and a foreign policy that many of us on the left will be fighting on many fronts, whether or not General Clark becomes VP. But, of course, we will now be shouted down even more loudly than before because it will be a Democrat in the White House, and a Democratic Congress.

We crashed the gates all right, but into them, not through them, and they held.

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by: Meteor Blades @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 16:42:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This just demonstrates the choke hold the... (4.00 / 1)

...MI Complex has on money for politics in this country. This fight, between progressives and the corporate war mongers, will go on for decades just as previous progressive movements had to do to bring us the end of slavery, the trusts and social Darwinism.

We must stick together and keep working.

Sadly, Wes Clark, a man I met at YK2006, is no longer with us. But that doesn't mean we stop fighting.

Quite the contrary.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

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by: ACitizen @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 16:54:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Warmongers (0.00 / 0)

I fail to see the connection between the endorsement and the victory of the military industrial complex.

Kucinich is the only one who has pledged to significantly reduce the budget of the Pentagon.

If Clark endorsed Biden or Obama would the be a victory for MIC? They haven't pledged to cut the Pentagon budget and have the virtually the same plan for Iraq as Clinton.

I don't understand why some people continue to gush over Clark and Gore. I liked Gore before his terrible campaign in 2000 and his failure to clearly win the a presidential election that should have been a cake walk.

I you want health care, work hard. If you want universal health care, vote for liberals.

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by: kazumatan @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 19:11:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Really? (0.00 / 0)

There is little question in my view that his endorsement will be the biggest one going until Edwards and Obama ring in with theirs sometime in mid- to late-February. It's over. It's going to be, I am devastated but not surprised to say, Hillary Clinton against whomever the GOP coalesces around.

I don't see this is a big deal at all. First of all, the Arkansas connection, and secondly, the fact that throughout Fall '03, Clark's candidacy was widely (if completely inaccurately) rumored to be a "stalking horse" for Hillary, if she had decided to jump in:

And first, Jon, everybody is wondering what the heck this mystery is surrounding General Wesley Clark and the Clintons. Can you answer that question, put an end to all of the rumors?

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, there has been so much buzz about this. You know, the conspiracy theory is that Wesley Clark is really the stalking horse for the presidential candidacy of Senator Hillary Clinton. People point to the fact that Clark's campaign has a lot of former Clinton people. Former President Bill Clinton has said very nice things about the general.

But both Clintons were out in force yesterday -- Hillary publicly, the former President Bill Clinton privately -- saying no, Wesley Clark is not their candidate. The Clintons, both of them, will remain completely neutral in this presidential campaign there. You know, until there is a Democratic nominee, they will endorse nobody. Obviously, they will vigorously support whoever the nominee is. And, no, Hillary Clinton says she is no way running.

So, this debate tonight is...

COSTELLO: I was just going to ask you about that, Jonathan.

KARL: Yes.

COSTELLO: I mean, that's the big rumor out there, that Hillary Clinton is going to jump in the race and Wesley Clark is going to be her running mate.

Clark endorsing Hillary is about as unexpected as, say, Madeline Albright endorsing Hillary.

Gore's endorsement will make news, too.

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by: tparty @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 17:22:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I didn't say it was unexpected ... (0.00 / 0)

...I said I'm unhappy with it, and that it will help seal the deal. I'll wager $5 that Obama and/or Edwards will endorse before Gore does.

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by: Meteor Blades @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 17:46:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And my argument (0.00 / 0)

is that since it's completely expected, it doesn't change things that much. Whether it does make a big impact will depend in large part on how (and how much) Clark gets involved in her campaign.

(And actually, you're probably right about Gore, given that even he must realize his nod will be seen as a kiss of death.)

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by: tparty @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 18:20:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Endorsements (0.00 / 0)

The Nobel peace prize will be announced on Oct. 16th

If Gore win's then his endorsement will be big time.

I bet he endorses before the IA caucus and it will not be Hillary.

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by: BDM @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 18:40:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well, from the NYT at the time (0.00 / 0)

Behind Gen. Wesley K. Clark's candidacy for the White House is a former president fanning the flames.

General Clark, in fact, said today that he had had a series of conversations with both the former president, Bill Clinton, and his wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, as well as close aides to them and that all of them had encouraged him to run. ... 

General Clark said in an interview today he had talked with both Mr. and Mrs. Clinton over the last few weeks. Beyond saying that they had been encouraging, he was reluctant to discuss the conversations because he was ''afraid I'm going to misquote one of them.''

Earlier this summer, Mr. Clinton and Mrs. Clinton were talking up General Clark to their friends.

''During their visits to Martha's Vineyard, there was certainly a lot of buzz about General Clark's potential candidacy,'' said Alan M. Dershowitz, the author and Harvard Law School professor who hobnobbed on the Vineyard with the Clintons.

''Obviously they didn't make any endorsement, but Bill particularly was clearly talking up his virtues,'' Mr. Dershowitz added. ''You could tell he was Bill's kind of guy.''

[New York Times, 9/19/03]

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by: Adam B. @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 19:15:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gingrich would hurt Romney and Thompson, by taking their voters, (0.00 / 0)

which means he'd help Giuliani in the end.  Not a good thing.

We still want Romney to win this thing.  He's the ultimate generic Republican, except he also has no personality AND no national security credentials.  Does it get any easier? 

Fred Thompson doesn't count.

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by: texas dem @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 16:20:10 PM CDT

Yes, But... (0.00 / 0)

Fred Thompson doesn't count.

Usually, they go for candidates who don't read.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 22:14:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Alan Keyes AND Newt Gingrich! (4.00 / 1)

Talk about a dream ticket.

Gingrich:  "We should turn the sea to lemonade, and turn the rivers to raspberry juice."

Keyes: "We should turn the sea to raspberry juice, and turn the rivers to lemonade."

And the question was:

(A) What should we do about global warming?

(B) You're a surprisingly unified ticket, given that you both talk out your ass so much, you can barely finish a sentence with contradicting yourselves.  Is there anything that you vehemently disagree on?

(C) What would you like to drink?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 17:17:22 PM CDT

Was Thinking the Same Thing (0.00 / 0)

Hillarious!!! 

Gingrich and Keyes should be great fodder for Jon Stewart and will have tremendous entertainment value.

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by: jmnyc @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 20:41:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Probably Gore will endorse Clinton next (0.00 / 0)

Clark's support of Clinton is not too surprising considering that policy wise he always seemed pretty much just like her.

I'd expect Gore to endorse clinton next.  They aren't as similar on issues, but there is a lot of history there and they aren't that far apart either.

All in all I can't imagine such endorsements mattering too much.

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by: Astera @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 17:21:33 PM CDT

Endorsement by Gore (0.00 / 0)

The Clinton's and Gore's do not get along.

He will omly endorse her if she gets the nominatrion.

Remember he was against the AUF and going into Iraq. His policies are much more progressive than the Clintons.

He will support either Edwards or Obama.

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by: BDM @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 18:44:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't think he will endorse anyone before the nomination (4.00 / 2)

He needs to keep a good relationship with eventual nominee and president for the sake of his cause.

I you want health care, work hard. If you want universal health care, vote for liberals.

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by: kazumatan @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 19:17:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

He'll make an endorsement (0.00 / 0)

If he thinks it will make a difference.  It just requires one of the other candidates (Edwards? Obama? somebody?) to step it up as the anti-Hillary and make skillful use of negative campaigning to clearly delineate themselves from HRC.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 19:51:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If they did not get along (0.00 / 0)

If they did not get along Gore would have ran in 2004 and Clinton would have ran in 2000.

Clearly they are staying out of each others way.  One issue isn't exactly a big difference.

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by: Astera @ Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 05:27:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

WTF???? (0.00 / 0)

Clark's support of Clinton is not too surprising considering that policy wise he always seemed pretty much just like her.

It's well known that Clark is close to the Clintons personally, but he is a much more of a social democrat and they are much more in the neo-liberal camp.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Sep 15, 2007 at 22:09:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Compare the two (0.00 / 0)

http://www.ontheissu...
http://www.ontheissu...

Hillary is a bit more liberal on a few social issues, but they are pretty similar.  That was always my impression.

and for gore
http://www.ontheissu...

Gore is the most conservative on social issues, but there still isn't that much difference.

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by: Astera @ Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 04:17:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If You Trust Their Evaluations (4.00 / 1)

Which I don't.

They take no account of (1) salience (what candidates stress, both through highlighting and through repetition), (2) structure (how people articulate the relationship between things), or (3) foundation (what deeper principles, exerience or rationale candidates rely on).  Thus, although neither Clinton nor Clark supports single-payer, Clinton comes from having bent over backwards to try to keep feeding them money, while Clark comes from decades of direct experience with the military system, which is single payer.  He also stressed other social democratic themes much more consistently than Clinton does.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sun Sep 16, 2007 at 08:56:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]