Poll Shows Clinton Would Not Hurt Democrats Down Ballot

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 09:30


This morning, there is going to be a poll discussed on most of the Sunday talk shows showing Clinton performing poorly in freshman House Democratic districts. It will be used as one of the typical "gotcha" moments that these shows inflict on virtually anyone who appears on their program. Today, since she will be on multiple such programs, including Fox, it appears to be her turn. You can see the poll here:

Poll of 31 Districts With Freshman Democrats

The poll is fairly old, taken from July 21 to August 5th. It shows Giuliani leading Clinton 49-39 in these districts, while Obama only trials Giuliani 41-40 (page 5). While most of these districts are not in "swing states," some are: CO-07, FL-16, FL-22, IA-01, IA-02, MN-01, NH-01, NH-02, OH-18, PA-04, PA-07, PA-08, PA-10, WI-08.

The question that I imagine this poll will ask will be a two-fold discussion of electability. First, Clinton will be asked something about how much this poll reflects on her chances to win the Presidency. To that, I would recommend that she discuss the general election maps I put together last month, showing her comfortably ahead of Giuliani and crushing Romney. For those interested, here is an updated version, based on the most recent poll from each state:

Clinton 338-200 Giuliani



New Republican States: Connecticut
New Democratic States: Arkansas, Iowa, Florida, Missouri, New Mexico, Virginia. Plus four congressional districts in North Carolina.
States within three points: New Jersey, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Virginia

In other words, in actual polls of key swing states, Clinton seems to be doing just fine. Even if Giuliani had the table on states within three points, Clinton would still win. Combine this with her consistent leads over Giuliani in the popular vote, that she beats other Republican candidates by even more than this, and that this is a single, two-month old poll mainly of districts not in swing states, and I don't think this says much negative about Clinton's electability.

However, might it say something about Clitnon's coattails? The most interesting aspect of this poll is that, for the first time, it is a poll available to the public testing what impact the Democratic nominee will have on key congressional districts. At first, without knowing who the Democratic nominee is, Democrats lead in the named ballot against a generic Republican by a whopping 51-32. In other words, virtually all Democratic freshman appear to be quite safe. I mean, a 19-point lead in a named ballot against even a generic Republican? As Dick Vitale would say, that is blowout city, baby! After the named / generic ballot, the poll goes on to ask the following two questions:

Some people say (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) is a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton and will support her liberal agenda of big government and higher taxes if she becomes President. If we re-elect (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) they will be a rubber stamp for Clinton and will forget the values of our district.

After hearing this if the election for U.S. Congress were held today, would you vote for [ROTATE] _the Republican candidate OR _(the Democratic incumbent), or are you undecided?

Republican: 41%
Democrat: 47%

Some people say (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) is a strong supporter of Barack Obama and will support his liberal agenda of big government and higher taxes if he becomes President. If we re-elect (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) they will be a rubber stamp for Obama and will forget the values of our district.

After hearing this if the election for U.S. Congress were held today, would you vote for [ROTATE] _the Republican candidate OR _(the Democratic incumbent), or are you undecided?

Republican: 38%
Democrat 44%

In other words, this poll shows the exact same 6% edge for freshman Democrats in the named generic ballot no matter if the local nominee is tied to Clinton or Obama. I think the key here is that the freshman Democrats are weakened not by the attack that connects them to any specific Democrat, but rather by the attack that they will be a tool of someone outside the district. In other words, it isn't tying Democratic candidates to Hillary Clinton that hurts them, but tying them to anyone from outside the district who is perceived as having different values.

What does this mean? First, it means that if Sunday shows are using this to attack Clinton, they really need to step it up and think of a better line of attack (cough, residual forces, cough). Second, I think it shows that the argument that Clinton would hurt Democratic coattails is just as fraudulent as the notion that she is unelectable herself. No matter who the Democratic nominee is, local Dems will be attacked for being connected to such a hateful, liberal, evil, socialist, anti-family, elitist traitor. The Republican attack machine will attack everyone in pretty much the same manner. If other candidates want to defeat Clinton for the Democratic nomination, they are going to have to choose a path other than electability (cough, residual forces, cough).

Chris Bowers :: Poll Shows Clinton Would Not Hurt Democrats Down Ballot

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Sorry Chris- (0.00 / 0)
that's not what Snuffleupagus, Cokie, "The Moderate" and George just told me.

Who am I to believe?


You said the C-word (4.00 / 1)
  Seriously, is there a beltway "political analyst" more vapid, more vacant, and more self-absorbedly elitist than Cokie Roberts? Between her perpetual "who farted?" facial expression, her phony identification as a "Democrat", and her self-righteous hectoring of anyone who deviates 1% from Conventional Beltway Wisdom, she's essentially the decrepit DC Establishment personified in one tidy, obnoxious package.

  The sooner she becomes irrelevant, the better. What can we do to hasten that day?

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
I don't get this ... (0.00 / 0)
The whole northeast would go for Hillary in a Hillary vs. Rudy matchup except for Connecticut?  Something smells fishy about that.  The other question I have is: What states do Hillary bring to the table that an Edwards or Obama doesn't?  Are there states that Edwards and Obama win that Hillary doesn't? 

Good question (0.00 / 0)
I know that there aren't as many statewide polls with the other candidates as there are with Clinton. Does anybody out there have data for a comparison?

[ Parent ]
Not inexplicable (0.00 / 0)
Western Connecticut is geographically an outlying area of NYC rather than part of New England. Combine that with the fact that up until November it had 3 Republican congressmen and it becomes clear why such a result might be produced by polling.

That said, I can't see that result happening either. I'd assume it's an outlier and it doesn't matter much yet because we've still a way yet to go until we got to the general.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
I ask because ... (0.00 / 0)
if Rudy can beat Hillary in CT ... why not New Jersey? .. there are tons of commuters in North Jersey too .. that's why I question whether Rudy can win CT ..  personally .. I don't think Rudy will win anything in the Northeast at all .. should he face Edwards, Hillary or Obama

[ Parent ]
Different Class (0.00 / 0)
The folks from Connecticut are the folks that Rudy "cleaned up New York" for.

The folks from Jersey, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Suburbanites loved Rudy more than New Yorkers (0.00 / 0)
The NJ commuters are less upscatle than the Conn. ones.  those folks didn't have to live with his authoritarian personality.  they just saw a NY that turned into a nicer entertainment venue.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Poor Hillary (0.00 / 0)
She never gets any respect. Boo-hoo. She's only the overwhelming (almost prohibitive, at this point) front runner in a race with a whole roster of very good candidates. I think this analysis does indicate (something that we've all known for a while now, which is)that the electability argument is moot for all of the 'top 3' candidates. However, Clinton will get some 'very serious' questions today, not because the punditocracy can't do math, but rather because other general election polls have indicated (as has been discussed ad nauseum) that Clinton is "the most polarizing candidate." I like Clinton, I'm not saying she shouldn't be the nominee and I'm not directly arguing against Chris' electability analysis. However previous polls have shown that about 95% of the electorate has already made up its mind about Mrs. Clinton. This poll, showing that the number of undecideds increases when discussing alternative Dems and decreases when discussing Clinton still follows this narrative that has been all the talk so far this year. With that in mind, I think any questions Clinton recieves on this topic are not entirely without merit. I also think, knowing Clinton, that she will do just fine in answering these concerns.

what about the Bush drag-down? (0.00 / 0)
I'd like to see what happens to the Dem-Rep spread if the question were asked "Some say that [Republican candidate] is a strong supporter of President Bush and will work in favor of his extreme conservative policies and attacks on your freedom...."

And By The Way, Here Are Some Pictures Of Him With Larry Craig! (0.00 / 0)
Oh, and here he is singing "Happy Birthday" to Jack Abramoff...

You know about the sex-trade in Saipan, right?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bias and fakes (0.00 / 0)
I haven't watched these shows for years because of the extreme Republican bias and the reliance on "gotcha" moments that are supposed to tear down one Democrat after another.  They get lousy ratings.  Why are they such a big thing?  They should be canned like Crossfire.

I Disagree With You (0.00 / 0)
I live in a red state, and believe me there are democrats who will not vote if Hillary is the nominee, so I think that will hurt the state and local democratic candidates.  On the other hand a Hillary run will give the repug local and state candidates a big boost because the repugs will come out in droves to vote against her.  Hillary will not motivate the democratic base to come out and vote in the red states.  I think Hillary will have no problem winning in the blue states, but states like Ohio, Missouri, Florida she will not win because of her negatives and will be a drag on local and state democratic candidates. 

Why? (4.00 / 1)
On what do you base you conclusion that Dems in red states won't vote?  All of the evidence says that completely false.  Hillary Clinton has the broadest support among Dems of any of the candidates.  If anything, the evidence says exactly the opposite.  All of the data we have suggests that Clinton will energize dems like no other candidate, and that she will win states like Missouri and Florida, and that she's also very competitive in Ohio.

It sounds like you;re basing your conclusions on conversations you've had with people, and anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence at all.  I live in a red state too (GA), and I can tell you abut conversations I've had which lead to me to conclude exactly the opposite of what you've said.  But in the end, it's still anecdotal, and as a result, entirely meaningless.


[ Parent ]
wishful thinking, chris (0.00 / 0)
General election polls right now are not necessarily meaningless, but they are close. Rudy is not going to carry Connecticut. I'm from Missouri and I have a *really* hard time seeing HRC carry that state... the "Clinton" brand gets a huge home state (Ark.) boost, but my hunch is that it would be pretty much identical to the one Rudy is apparently getting in CT, that is to say, largely a mirage.

Democrats always significantly underperform the generic ballot until generics taken 1 week before election day. I don't know why that is, but it's remarkable watching the amount of commentary that revolves around the Democratic generic advantage, when that gap always slashes by at least half by election day--even in 2006, it went from about 17 points to 7-9.

Also, there's a huge anecdotal factor. Everyone knows more than one person who is open to the Democratic label, but who "just will not vote for Hillary." Will some of those people flip as the election comes closer? Sure. But a disproportionate number, to the best of our knowledge, will not.


ps (0.00 / 0)
Not to mention, the wording of that poll (at least the part you spotlighted) makes it highly suspect...

[ Parent ]
Gun Control (0.00 / 0)
At the State Legislature level, Clinton probably helps in suburban districts, swinging pro-choice Republican women, but drags in the rural areas as a "gungrabber." Be interesting to see polling comparing with Richardson, not just Obama, whose embrace of gun control is even stronger. I figure the net effect of a Clinton nomination on the WI Assembly as -3 seats. The Milwaukee collar districts are drawn with big enough Republican majorities that her bump won't matter.

Much of the Fin and Fur crowd is ready to go Dem over economics, but a candidate who supports both gun control and PATRIOT is a turnoff. Nearly all the split tickets that went to Bush and Feingold in 2004 were in the Gun Belt of Northern and Southwestern WI.

Polling against gungrabber Giuliani mutes this factor.



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.


Probably right (0.00 / 0)
I live in suburban New Jersey and the one candidate I see enthusiasm for is Hillary (among middle aged, middle class, women).  I hear phrases like "Isn't it time we had a woman as President?"  Neither Obama nor Edwards seem to stir up much passion among the people I know (and I'm pro-Edwards and I've converted a few people but they are not as enthusiastic).

Hillary against either Rudy or Romney will carry some southern states.  Obama might carry Virginia but my guess is no.  Other than that , he's unlikely in the south.  Edwards is another story.  He might add NC and WV, probably Ohio.  Will Obama do better in the mountain west?  He'd have to to make up the gap.

BTW, Jimmy Carter carried 12 of 13 southern states (lost VA) but got only 297 electoral votes.  Try to run that through normal calculations. 


[ Parent ]
There's no Jerry Ford in the Rep. field. (0.00 / 0)
Closest thing was Tommy.



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.


[ Parent ]
Whatever the truth is... (0.00 / 0)
  ...it's good to see this issue being hashed out NOW, before the primaries, than LATER, after there's no turning back from the nominee. If Hillary does indeed have an electability problem or a coattail problem, the time to address it is while we still have choices in who carries our banner next year.

  Anecdotally I'm with those who see that Hillary's got some powerful negatives that are going to be a huge problem in purple states. (Funny how this issue, so critical with Howard Dean among Dem insiders four years ago, seems not to register a blip among the same insiders this time around. But that's another story.) But Hillary, as far as I know, is reasonably popular in upstate New York, which is hardly a sea of blueness. I think she CAN win "the middle" over given a forum in which to do so. Whether she WILL depends on her campaign strategy -- if it's the same old DLC safeness, it will fail miserably.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


THIS IS A PUSH POLL (4.00 / 5)
by definition a push poll is where you smear a named candidate and then ask what the voter thinks.

read this question:

Some people say (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) is a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton and will support her liberal agenda of big government and higher taxes if she becomes President. If we re-elect (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) they will be a rubber stamp for Clinton and will forget the values of our district.

see the smear?

LIBERAL AGENDA OF BIG GOVERNMENT AND HIGHER TAXES

that's nothing more than the cheap anti-Democratic rhetoric used in rightwing TV ads created by Howard Finkelstein and his disciples.

no credible poll would use that kind of rhetoric.

and if you still don't get it, here's my final question - do you see a comparable question about Giuliani and his

CONSERVATIVE AGENDA OF BIG GOVERNMENT AND MORE WARS?


True... (0.00 / 0)
But it is a good indicator of how people respond to such an attack. So, I think Chris' analysis is right on here.

Further Reading

[ Parent ]
not only (4.00 / 2)
is it a totally worthless push poll, it was conducted by Celinda Lake, who is a Biden campaign staffer.

I guess it's easy to get opposition research published everywhere.


[ Parent ]
Not a push poll (0.00 / 0)
A push poll is basically a negative ad disguised as a phone poll. An ad that reaches 1200 people is meaningless and in this case, each congressional candidate's district got only about 40 calls. True push polls are blasted to large numbers of phones.

A leading poll, which we've discussed, asks a series of skewed questions to lead up to the money shot question. The pollster asks a series of slanted questions, and then asked a question with neutral language for reporting out of context.

This is a small split sample poll that tests a GOP 101 attack message against the local congressional Dem candidate. Half got the Clinton attack, half got the Obama attack. The purpose was specifically to test the premise that the top of the ticket would affect the lower races. A baseline question was asked for comparison to the attack question, but all results were reported together so the movement can be analyzed.

Chris argues that the same six point margin in both cases means that the choice is moot, but I would focus more on the movement than the margin.

Celinda Lake was the Latino Policy Coalition pollster well before she started working for Biden's campaign, and the earlier release SEN. CLINTON TAKES COMMANDING LEAD AMONG LATINO VOTERS doesn't exactly convey any pro-Biden spin.


[ Parent ]
You say that a push poll (4.00 / 1)
"is basically a negative ad disguised as a phone poll"

Well...THIS:

...will support her liberal agenda of big government and higher taxes...

is a "negative" Republican talking point re Democrats. So in other words, this was a push poll. And I'd like to add that I think it's really silly to reinforce Republican talking points in our own polls.

It's no wonder we can't get our message out...WE are working to reinforce theirs!


[ Parent ]
'Negative' yes (0.00 / 0)
'Ad' no

[ Parent ]
this (0.00 / 0)
was a poll designed by one of Biden's campaign staffers to make other candidates look weak.

[ Parent ]
I don't see how you go from this (0.00 / 0)
to knowing the outcome in swing districts. Down ticket is about the effect in swing districts- thats where coattails happen.  Not in the entire states. It will happen in places where elections are decided by a few thousand votes like they did in 2006. Where the base of each party will determine outcomes and those little pesky numbrs you used to care about like how a partisan a district is should be included.

okay I misunderestood and re read (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Down Ticket (0.00 / 0)
The problem with these numbers is that they look only at Democratic incumbents, not Democratic challengers. I am curious what those polls would look like, and if there are differences by region.

[ Parent ]
Polling Bias (4.00 / 2)
I honestly think that almost all polling for this primary is to be taken with a grain of salt because this election is different. It's our first primary with both a woman and an African-American in a prominent position being taken seriously. Since Social Expectation Bias is well documented as a real human habit, I honestly think that the polling numbers for both Hillary and Obama are inflated by Social Expectation Bias.

For those who don't know what Social Expectation Bias is, in a nutshell, it means that people when polled, if asked if they'll vote for a minority or a white man, will say that they'll vote for a minority when in fact they won't do so on voting day. They'll say they'll vote for the minority simply because they feel it will make them look good to the pollster. It's a well documented human behavior.

Personally, I predict that when the actual voting day comes, a significant portion of Hillary and Obama's constituency will miraculously disappear, because it was never there in the first place. People just want to tell a pollster that they'll vote for a woman or a black man because its what many people perceive will make them appear like a good person.

Am I right? Time will tell. I've been wrong before.


thanks for bringing this up (0.00 / 0)
Chris, have you already addressed this factor in terms of interpreting Hillary's poll numbers?

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
I doubt it (0.00 / 0)
While under normal circumstances I suspect that they would do that we have an unpopular Republican war that they don't like.

Personally I think that they will vote on issues of war rather than race or sex.  They dislike Clinton and are frequently "disappointed" in Barack Obama.

However they hate bush and people who agree with him much more than they care about that.


[ Parent ]
An Idealist. How Quaint. (0.00 / 0)
Your faith in the American public to make wise decisions strikes me as a bit ridiculous. I can't believe that for the first time in the history of the country that the issues are going to define a presidential election.

We didn't suddenly get a whole new bunch of people in America. This is more or less the same population who voted for Bush in '04.

This election isn't going to be any different than any previous election. 15% of people will vote on the issues. 15% will vote for their party's candidate no matter what. 10% will vote on who is better looking, and 50% will stay home.


[ Parent ]
You're missing the pork voter (0.00 / 0)
At the Congressional level, especially in smaller population States, votes for the one who'll be most able to bring home federal $. Edge, incumbents. The more sophisticated pork voter tries to keep their representation split, so as to have a voice in each caucus. Hence Harkin + Grassley.



This is a Test of the Emergency Free Speech System. This is only a Test. In an actual Free Speech Emergency, I'll be locked up.


[ Parent ]
The difference (0.00 / 0)
The difference is the netroots.  People who would normally be politically apathetic and at least somewhat Republican under most administrations.  I don't think that they are going to say "Well edwards didn't win so lets vote for the Republicans".

Markos after all was a Regan Republican.  He isn't going to go back to the Republicans or quit the democratic party if Hillary or Obama wins.


[ Parent ]
Read this statement in the poll again.... (0.00 / 0)
"Some people say (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) is a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton and will support her liberal agenda of big government and higher taxes if she becomes President. If we re-elect (YOUR DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT) they will be a rubber stamp for Clinton and will forget the values of our district.

After hearing this if the election for U.S. Congress were held today, would you vote for [ROTATE] _the Republican candidate OR _(the Democratic incumbent), or are you undecided?"

On the basis of the reading of the poll, this is a loaded question. Is this a push poll or what? I mean it makes assumptions (that are generally stereotypes) that push people to choose the Republican. The surprise is that Democrats scored so high.

The next election will be on Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. And if the local Democrat hasn't done anything, we may see a "throw them out" type of mentality drive the election.


Might... (0.00 / 0)
But my guess is that the Republican will still run on the brainless war platform. And no one who's serious about getting our troops home will vote for that.

Further Reading

[ Parent ]
Sorry Chris, this proves nothing (0.00 / 0)
While you're right about the general election, I completely disagree with your analysis of Clinton's effect on other Dems, for a number of reasons.

1) The poll does not take Edwards into account, which I think would have revealed a significant difference between him and Obama/Clinton.

2) The poll doesn't take into account lower level (yet still absolutely critical) local and state legislative races.

3) The poll only looks at incumbent districts, and doesn't look at Hillary's effect on key challengers.

4) The poll shows Obama with more undecideds than Clinton. I'm willing to bet those undecided voters would shift Democratic once they got to know who Obama really is.

5) The poll is only a measure of what people say in the comfort of their own homes. Of course being compared to a big government liberal will hurt anyone, but you have to think about voter turnout. Are conservatives really going to flock to the polls because of Obama? I doubt it. The real determining factor in what will turn conservatives out against a Democratic nominee is high unfavorables, which Hillary has more than her fair share of.

6) The wording of the poll is highly questionable.

7) The poll doesn't pit Hillary against other Republicans, which would likely alter the results.

Your header "Clinton Would Not Hurt Democrats Down Ballot" is an overstatement at best.

I'm absolutely convinced that a Clinton nomination would hurt the entire party and go down in history as a major setback in building a truly progressive America. This poll proves nothing.


Electoral College calculation (4.00 / 1)
Chris, where the heck do you get 338-200 in the general? Duplicating the changes from 2004 that you got from polling, I got 314-224 Clinton- which would mean that Giuliani wouldn't need to run the table on close states; VA + FL + almost any other state (if it were NM, the result would be a tie) would bring GOP victory.

States polls (0.00 / 0)
Latest State polls from SUSA

MmISSOURI
Guliani 48
Clinton 45

Other states from SUSA:

Ohio
Giuliani 48%, Clinton 47%
Thompson 47%, Clinton 48%
Romney 42%, Clinton 52%
Giuliani 52%, Obama 39%
Thompson 50%, Obama 42%
Romney 46%, Obama 45%
Giuliani 48%, Edwards 47%
Thompson 43%, Edwards 452%
Romney 36%, Edwards 56%
Kentucky (between 542 and 541 registered voters)
Giuliani 51%, Clinton 41%
Thompson 50%, Clinton 45%
Romney 46%, Clinton 46%
Giuliani 54%, Obama 36%
Thompson 54%, Obama 37%
Romney 45%, Obama 43%
Giuliani 50%, Edwards 43%
Thompson 44%, Edwards 45%
Romney 38%, Edwards 48%

She will not carry VA unless Mark Warner is on the ticket.

FL is still very iffy and those numbers can change again all witin the MOE

I STILL SAY THAT DUE TO RACIAL BIAS AND GENDER BIAS, BOTH cLINTON AND oBAMA HAVE TO HAVE A 5 PT LEAD IN THE POLLS TO FEEL SAFE IN CARRYING THESE STATES.

The polling doesn't show it due to political correctness.
I deplore it but it is still there, not as bad as when Wilder ran in the late 80's.


[ Parent ]
The Dem candidate matters (0.00 / 0)
"No matter who the Democratic nominee is, local Dems will be attacked for being connected to such a hateful, liberal, evil, socialist, anti-family, elitist traitor."

Whether that is true or not, the argument will work a lot better in the minds of many voters in Red States if HRC is the nominee.  She'll have a negative impact on down ticket races outside of the West coast and Northeast.


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