More On Edwards, Residual Forces And The Debate

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 11:30


I am currently in Durham, New Hampshire, at the MySpace / MTV dialogue with John Edwards. I have been told that I must legally disclose that MySpace is paying for my travel expenses to be here. So, well, MySpace is paying for my travel expenses to be here.

Before that starts at noon, I wanted to give a run down of my many thoughts on the residual forces question that led off the debate last night:
  1. First, I am very happy that this is finally receiving significant attention in the campaign. It feels good to make a difference, and validates the idea that consistent, focused blogging on a given subject can really make a difference, even if you lack the large audience of other blogs. It may have taken six months, but this is finally hitting the mainstream. It is a debate that the party absolutely needs to have before selecting its next presidential nominee.

  2. Second, I am very happy that John Edwards has now put a number to his residual force plan: 3,500 to 5,000. Estimates of this sort have been long sought both by bloggers such as Siun, myself, and by the Bill Richardson campaign. I have placed queries with the Edwards campaign to clarify whether the 3,500 to 5,000 numbers refers to the total residual forces in Iraq, or to the total residual combat forces in Iraq in the Edwards plan.

  3. Placing a number on troops is key to preventing a Republican blurring strategy on Iraq. It is extremely unlikely that the Republican nominee would ever go as low as, for example, an estimate of 3,500 to 5,000 troops, much less none. This is why providing thee estimates is so essential to Democratic chances in 2008. It makes it impossible for Republicans to blur, because they will never even go as low as 40,000, much less 20,000, 12,000, 5,000 or zero.

  4. The failure of either Clinton or Obama to provide such estimates is dangerous for the Democratic Party, and for themselves in a general election. If they do not provide estimates, it will be much more difficult to distinguish themselves on Iraq from the Republican nominee, who will probably talk withdrawal in some form. The lack of estimates  is also becoming more glaring all the time, considering that Richardson, Edwards, Kucinich and Biden have all now provided estimates, as have several think tanks, including The Center for American Progress and the Center for a New American Security. Continued refusal to put out an estimate seems like little more than obfuscation at this point.

  5. Despite the benefits of naming a number in preventing a Republican blurring strategy in 2008, in the context of the primary, Edwards still missed a big opportunity last night. While it is useful that he is drawing a distinction between his residual force plan than that of Clinton, it simply is not as effective a distinction as it could have been had he said "no residual troops," ala Richardson. Liberal Oasis sums this up nicely (emphasis in original):

    Further, Edwards sought to emphasize that his residual force would be relatively small, between 3,500 and 5,000 troops, in order to protect the US Embassy in Iraq and protect humanitarian workers.

    Without taking a pledge to get all troops by Jan. 2013, Edwards' is drawing a very fine distinction, which may limit the political impact.

    While some news reports highlighted criticism of Clinton, the AP noted that all three leading Dem candidates wouldn't take that pledge.

    Meanwhile, Gov. Bill Richardson and Rep. Dennis Kucinich sought to take advantage of the opening created by the three leading candidates to tout their plans to withdraw all troops from Iraq as soon as possible.

    And Sen. Chris Dodd, when asked if he'd take the 2013 pledge to get all troops home, said, "I will get that done."

      This was the lead story on the debate pretty much everywhere. Had Edwards taken the opportunity to pledge no residual forces, or at least that he would get all troops out by friggin' 2013, it could have been a huge moment of differentiation. Instead, he limited the potential impact of his differentiation with Clinton. And for what? From what I understand, most humanitarian workers, don't want American troop protection. That is the sort of thing that can get them killed. The troops won't be guarding them every second of the day, and even when they are guarding them, they will be attacked.

Overall, I am excited by all of this. The more residual forces are discussed, the more informed the electorate becomes. I don't expect everyone to agree with my, and Bill Richardson's, position on no residual forces, but I at least want them to know what they are supporting before choosing our next nominee. I also want our nominee to make his or her Iraq plan clear enough that there is simply no way for Republicans to blur on the issue. As long as we have an informed electorate, and Democrats offering clarity on their withdrawal plans, I can see a bright future ahead for our party.

Oh, and two final notes: 3,500 to 5,000 to low, but it still isn't zero (or, 1,000 if you count the embassy, which you shouldn't). And 2013? Man, oh man, oh man. Not being able to promise having all American troops in five years just sounds, really, really bad coming out of any Democrats mouth. I can't imagine this is playing well with the national electorate. 

Chris Bowers :: More On Edwards, Residual Forces And The Debate

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I think Richardson wasn't straight last night (4.00 / 2)
Richardson came on late last night on hardball arguing that he was the only one to agree to pull all troops out by 2013.

Both Edwards and Richardson have said they will keep troops in Iraq to protect the embassy.  Yet Edwards realizes that means he can't say "no troops" in 2013.  Richardson on the other hand, doesn't mind saying "no troops" in 2013, even though it isn't true due to the troops he will have at the embassy.  Every embassy in the world is guarded and there isn't going to be an exception in Iraq.  Obama and Clinton on the other hand have agreed to keep as many as 40,000 or 50,000 troops in Iraq for combat missions and other activities.  Edwards has only committed around 3,500 for the embassy and protecting humanitarian workers.  Richardson is either confused or isn't being truthful.  Either way he was wrong.


No troops (0.00 / 0)
The difference is not their definition of embassy guards. Their difference is that Edwards would have troops protecting American civilians outside the embassy.

That is the difference between Edwards and Richardson. I honestly think Edwards is getting better, but he really fumbled with the American troops protecting civilians thing. Not only do those Americans not want military protection, but it also leads to bad sound bites like "I can't make that committment."

[ Parent ]
So what is so wrong about protecting (4.00 / 1)
humanitarian workers?  Should we not provide humanitarian aid to Iraq or let them go it alone?

[ Parent ]
It doesn't change the fact that Richardson was wrong. (0.00 / 0)
He said "no troops" by 2013, but will keep troops at the embassy.

[ Parent ]
No combat troops? (0.00 / 0)
I don;t understand the idea that we withdraw "combat troops" but leave tens of thousands for "force protection."  Embassy guarding is one thing--it generally takes marines in dress uniforms, not full combat dress, although post-occupation iraq may be a tad different.  But "force protection" is something altogether different.  If our people are in danger of attack, aren't "combat troops" going to protect them?  Surely not mechanics and drivers and supply clerks. 

This points up the whole fallacy of the "withdraw all combat troops" line. Combat troops are usually the last to be withdrawn.  Nonessential support personnel go first, then  combat brigades and their supporting troops.  Under many of these plans we leave trainers and special forces and "force protection".  If we don't dismantle the bases, at least some combat people ate going to have to remain--it makes no sense otherwise.

That highlights the pointlessness of this debate.  I think we can asume that in Jan. 2009 we will have about 120,000-130,000 troops in Iraq, given Bush's desires and military realities.  Either a candidate is going to try to end the occupation, and that means getting out all but ~5000 or less troops, or s/he is being disingenuous.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
I think Edwards was looking at Recent History (4.00 / 2)
We haven't pulled all of our troops from Kosovo either. 

The defining moment for Edwards was about Iran.

Of course, his comment last night he said back in February, but the corporate media, like a lot of the blog sphere, has been ignoring Edwards' ideas about foreign policy .  He's learned a lot of lessons in the past few years.  It's time he got credit where credit is due.  And I'm glad Chris is beginning to give it.


Kosovo and Iraq (0.00 / 0)
Number of US Troops killed in Kosovo: Zero
Number of US Troops Killed in Iraq: 3,801 and counting

That is a little bit different. Leaving residual forces in countries where the troops are welcomed, or at least not killed, is way different than leaving them in a country where they are being killed at a rate of about 20 a week for four years now.


[ Parent ]
circular definition for having embassy troops (0.00 / 0)
by your definition we should have no troops where there is danger? are you sure thats the credible position you want to take. which of course, begs  the question, why should we have embassy troops in the first place if not to protect the embassy? I agree with your holding the candidates' feet to the fire, but this and other places on here posters have been saying things that in any other location wouldn't be considered realistic or prudent or for that matter normal procedure. again- if you are arguing what you mean to argue by your post. by the way, what would you do to protect the embassy employees should things go wrong?

[ Parent ]
I think you got your answer at the MySpace forum (0.00 / 0)
and not terribly different from my response either.

[ Parent ]
Edwards recognizes that there will have to be (4.00 / 2)
the usual Marine Embassy contingent as long as we have even a normal sized facility in Iraq.  It is my understanding that the numbers he cited are for that purpose.  He made it clear that Clinton is talking about combat troops, and that he is not.  I'm sure the campaign will provide more clarity if you need it, but I'm not sure how much more clear he can be.

Richardson is whistling in the wind if he continues to claim that there will be NO US troops in Iraq - he knows full well there will need to be the normal Marine Embassy contingent.  Ask him how many Marines will be Iraq for that purpose?  If he says 'zero' then we have a problem because that is neither realistic nor honest.


I have asked the campagin (0.00 / 0)
One of the people I asked said he doesn't know, and will get back to me. I don't consider the issue clear either way until I get a response.

[ Parent ]
Excellent point (0.00 / 0)
On using the number of troops to combat Republicans' blurring strategy.

Additionally, we should look at launching an effort to push media types to start asking troop numbers of the Republicans, and watch Americans' eyes boggle as they all say numbers well over 100,000, I bet.

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Since when are Marines not "troops"? (0.00 / 0)
If you say you will have "no troops in Iraq by 2013" you should mean "no troops."  Not "no troops but the ones I am going to keep in there."

they seem to try and avoid trapping their words (0.00 / 0)
I've suspected and posted that I thoroughly distrust Bush and fully expect him to leave some kind of Somolia trap for a Democrat when a Democrat wins.  And by that I mean, creating some weird foreign policy situation that consumes the new President's time for 6 months, like Iraq isn't bad enough.  But like the candidates admitted, they don't know what they will be handed in 2009.  Now, maybe Richardson is very confident that however bleak things are in 2009 he will be able to meet his commitment or he will simply break it and hope the voter's understand. 
I am an Edwards supporter and am pleased by the commitment to get down to as little as 5000 troops.  Although, one has to wonder how many troops will be needed to protect the 5000 but that's a different argument. 
I'm certain a Democratic president would call for frequent regional summits to continue to work towards stabilizing the region while drawing American troops down.  The exact opposite of Bush's smash mouth policy.  But I totally agree, Chris, that Edwards seemed to have missed an opportunity to be just that much more decisive against Clinton or Obama. 

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