What Does Opposing the War Mean?

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 20:25


Given this comment from a three-star general who is backing Clinton, it seems worthwhile to ask what opposing the war in Iraq actually means:

A retired U.S. Army general visiting the state to campaign for Hillary Clinton said yesterday she does not oppose the Iraq war -- and she said she's never heard Clinton oppose it, either.

Retired Lt. Gen. Claudia Kennedy, the Army's first woman to reach the three-star rank, said she supports Clinton's promise to withdraw the majority of U.S. troops from Iraq if she is elected President. But Kennedy said she does not consider her position to be opposing the war as it is currently being conducted.

Kennedy, 60, retired in 2000 after serving in the Army since 1969.

Asked if she opposes the war as it is currently being conducted, Kennedy said in a telephone interview: "As of the last couple of years, I do think that we should be on a different track. I wouldn't put it that way because, as retired military, it might come across as being -- you know what I mean -- I wouldn't say it in a completely stark way.

"I'm very proud of the army," Kennedy said. "I'm proud of the Army leadership. They've done the very best they can given the circumstances. They get a shifting sense of mission and it comes from their civilian leadership. They haven't gotten the support they needed."

Kennedy said she agreed with Clinton's position to withdraw, as Clinton has said, "the vast majority" of U.S. troops from Iraq while leaving behind a relatively small counter-terrorism force.

"Senator Clinton has it exactly right," said Kennedy. "If she is elected, her plan is to bring together the chairman of the joint chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Council and get them to create a plan that will have the withdrawal begin within 60 days."

Kennedy said she does not consider such a position opposition to the war.

Hillary Clinton voted for the war, has refused to apologize for that vote, has praised "progress" in some areas of Iraq, and has made it clear that she will keep a residual American military presence of indeterminate size in Iraq through at least 2013. At the same time, she claims that she would not have started the war in Iraq had she been President, and that she will withdraw "the vast majority" of American troops from Iraq if she becomes President. She also voted for Feingold-Reid twice, and against the capitulation, blank check supplemental (albeit at the last minute). Given all of this, is Hillary Clinton "opposed" to the war in Iraq, or not?

I think the answer is that she has pretty much always been in favor of the war, but in the last couple of years has also been in favor of reducing the size of our military involvement. That seems to be pretty much the only position that is consistent with her actions over the past five years. She isn't opposed to it, but she thinks it can be done smaller, and better. That is also a position that is generally consistent with liberal hawk foreign policy thought: the war wasn't wrong, it was just conducted poorly, and now can only be "successful" in a more narrowly targeted way. Perhaps a good analogy is that her views on Iraq are more JFK than LBJ: both are hawkish, but one is narrow and targeted while the other is expansive and prone to quagmires.

It also functions as a centrist position on an issue rarely understood to have a middle ground. Of course, like so many other centrist positions like mandated health care, cap and trade without a carbon tax, and the recently attempted immigration reform in the Senate, it also will neither make anyone happy nor do much to fix the main problems we face (expensive for profit health care, expanding carbon emissions, the development of a near permanent underclass in America, etc). Iraq isn't going to get any better, either for us or the Iraqis, if we leave tens of thousands of troops in the country. The war won't end, either. But it will make elites happy, and appear to be doing something to solve one of the major problems we face. And that is, in a nutshell, how our political system has learned to function.

Chris Bowers :: What Does Opposing the War Mean?

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More And Better Democratic Wars??? (4.00 / 2)
This accords with something I heard on the radio earlier today.  Amidst a great deal of dreck, the author of the latest tedious Dems and the White Male Dude tome remarked about Clinton's efforts to make herself as darned near bullet-proof on defense as she could be.  And refusing to condemn the war is all just part of that package.

While it was hard to tell precisely where his BS left off and hers began, it stuck me as quite plausible that there wasn't really any dividing line at all.  This is simply the Dems CW.  (He even defended Kerry, while simultaneously admitting he screwed up with the Swift Boat Liars. Amazing capacity for self-contradiction.)

I'd like to take one more opportunity to say that I think we need to field a poll to do as much as possible to detail just how out of touch the Beltway Dems are.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


why? (0.00 / 0)
There's plenty of polling data on that.

[ Parent ]
The Question Is (0.00 / 0)
who are they out of touch with - the netroots or rank and file Dems around the country?

Most polls have showed that the majority of rank and file Dems voters in the country are willing to see a withdrawal take place somewhere between 1 or 2 years, right? And the rank and file represent the majority of Dems in America.

Most of the netroots wants out tomorrow but we don't represent the majority. So saying the Dems are out of tough is relative.


[ Parent ]
Careful with those typos ... (0.00 / 0)
...next thing you know the Republicans will be using that mistake as the newest incarnation of their 60-year-long theme: "The Dems are out of tough."

[ Parent ]
Nice Catch (0.00 / 0)
Maybe I have been at dkos for too long and the Dem bashing thing is like a virus seeping into my consciousness. Or hopefully it is just my inferior typing skills.

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Prediction (0.00 / 0)
Since no one will stop the Clinton juggernaut, and if she suceeds in becoming President, we will be in the same place in 5 years that the GOP now finds itself.

There are just two many characteristics (no idealogical beliefs) that are similar to how Bush has acted as President. One of the first things I am looking for in a nominee, not that you asked, is the ability to admit mistakes. If the candidate can not admit mistakes, can not say 'I was wrong here and I need to change course" I don't see how we end up in a better place. Can anyone imagining JFK continuing down the path he was headed with the Cuban Missile Crisis or Bay of Pigs merely because it was politically expedient to make him look tough?

My critique of Clinton right now- beyond the electoral issue- is this particular character flaw- she doesn't admit mistakes. That's dangerous. If she becomes our nominee, I will vote for her. I can only hope that I am wrong. I believe she is still better than anyone even Bloomberg, BUT this character trait of hers is really really not appealing at all.


Not a single vote has been cast (0.00 / 0)
Clinton can be stopped, the key is to make sure voters in IW and NH understand her real views on Iraq and Iran.

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I have zero faith (0.00 / 0)
in the American voters' ability to figure candidates during an election cycle. They are better with the hindsight of regretting their decisions than the foresight of making them. Exhibit A and B-- Bush and Lieberman. Nothing new is occuring with the President or Senator now than when they ran for office.  The same is true of Clinton. People believe what they want to be believe about her. She's against the Iraqi War in their mind because they like her and they are against the war, so she must be too. Yet, her policy decisions don't comport with this view. Certainly her vote on Iran indicates she learned nothing from the lead up the Iraqi War. Even if her supporters are correct- that this vote isn't a license for military action, they poorly read the politics of how it can be used as an openning regardless of what the language says. As Bill Maher said, how can anyone trust someone with such bad judgement to be President. And yet, many people are supporting her poor judgement.

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Is it really judgement? (0.00 / 0)
Although we run around and talk about judgement because that is the legitimate way to criticize -it takes her at her word - I think most of us suspect, like her and Edwards vote on the original Iraq bill, there is an unhealthy dose of political positioning in her vote.  The idea that the two of them decide their position based on the politics of their career is not so much a lack of judgement than a callousness of ego. 

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I am not ignoring the politics (0.00 / 0)
My point was primarily about the voters. And the idea that it has to be one or the other seems to be the new 'it' theme of this cycle. Either Edwards is a politican or he's for poverty. Either Clinton is a politician or its a question of her judgement. How about both. Neither. Something else. All are just as possible as the black/white dichotomy. My point however was primarily about the voters not even being a part of the conversation at all much less what they choose to take from the conversation. I mean take the recent LA Times poll regarding how they view Clinton on Iraq. On the one hand, one could take that as a sign they generally trust her. And  on the other, I remember this woman in my home state back in the 1980s voting for Reagan because he would cut her taxes. She lived in one of those smaller silver trailers in a trailer park. In other words, sometimes there is just a disconnect between what voters want to believe, faith based politics, and what's real. The Democrats aren't immune to this. That was my main point.

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Not a question of faith in the voters (0.00 / 0)
the fact is that not a single vote has been cast. Every day is another opportunity to educate voters as to her real views and her record of support for reckless military interventions. If we keep at it we may or may not prevail.

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I don't see it. (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, unless there is some major shift in dynamics, I am not seeing this massive change that will occur. The primary issue is that you have to get through to the voters, and the voters have to want to be gotten through to. I no longer blame the politicians for how America is. I blame the voters. Its our choices regarding the country we live in. Saying its a matter of education means you believe that somehow they are being denied the ability to find out, if they really want to know whats going on, and yet, it remains we are the most information intense society in history.  THere are a million ways they could find out if they were interested.

[ Parent ]
Not a single vote has been cast (0.00 / 0)
Saying its a matter of education means you believe that somehow they are being denied the ability to find out

I am not saying anything of the sort. For those of us who oppose HRC her persistent lead is very frustrating. However, not a single vote has been cast.

The caucuses are Jan 3, almost 3 months away. That is a long time in politics. If we continue to hammer away at Clinton's record of support for reckless military interventions we may or may not prevail. Until the last vote has been counted in the primary process no one has been nominated. Let us continue to work and see what happens. What other choice do we have?


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my comment is the implicit reality of your comment (0.00 / 0)
if you believe this is about education. history is not determinative. but its helpful with regard to voter behavior patterns. the core issue isn't voter education, it's whether they desire to find out. you also ignore the example i gave which goes to the heart of the point about the limits of information and knowledge to shift belief. its not impossible to change people's minds, but it is hard and it does require time. i am not sure 3 months (actually 2 and half), most of which is the holiday season and a ready made excuse to be distracted even further, can over come the concern I raise. Maybe it can. We shall see. What I do know is that its not a matter of education.

[ Parent ]
Preemption (0.00 / 0)
I don't get the obsession with looking for an "apology" about the War.  The vote was about a Preemptive Strike against a nation not directly threatening us.  You don't support such a major shift in our foreign policy and then get to simply say Whoops, my bad, I'm sorry.  My mistake.  There is no change post-facto to that decision and it's not about how the War was handled, or how to get out or anything else to do with the War.  The vote was not about Iraq, it was a vote about America and we shouldn't forget that or let people off the hook.

2013 (4.00 / 2)
Sorry but you are completely wrong when you say she said she would keep a force of indeterminate size in Iraq until at least 2013.  Wrong.

The question was would she guarantee that American troops would all be out of Iraq by 2013.  Like Obama and Edwards, she would not make said guarantee.  This is a concession that they cannot predict the future.  Anything else is bullshit, including Richardson's all out.

Please notice that these are not the same positions at all.


opposing the war? (0.00 / 0)
This may be more "triangulation" or she may truely believe in the leaner more efficient force (a la Rumsfeld). Whatever, it was a preemptive war and therefore immoral by our oft stated values. I must say that WW II vets that I've spoken to are almost unanimously against this debacle. They usually say that this is what the other side does, not us. Several compared it to Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia in the lead up to that war.
  Will she now try to have it both ways again after this latest vote? I will vote for Senator Clinton as a last resort in the general election mainly because of the Supreme Court but I do worry about where our foreign policy is headed.

Why yes, I'm a liberal. Thank you very much!

She's Kind Of On The Record (0.00 / 0)
There's all sorts of things wrong with Sen. Clinton's original vote and her post-justification of it, but a far as going forward she's pretty unambiguous:
"Our message to the President is clear. It is time to begin ending this war -- not next year, not next month -- but today.

"We have heard for years now that as the Iraqis stand up, our troops will stand down. Every year, we hear about how next year they may start coming home. Now we are hearing a new version of that yet again from the President as he has more troops in Iraq than ever and the Iraqi government is more fractured and ineffective than ever.

"Well, the right strategy before the surge and post-escalation is the same: start bringing home America's troops now."


Being hawkish on defense doesn't give up one's liberal card, unless the rules have changed without the rest of us being told.

She's just promising a "beginning" (0.00 / 0)
So Senator Clinton's promise to "begin ending this war" is some hard and fast stance? How long did it take us to "begin to end" the Vietnam War? This from Rick Pearlstein on Salon:

"In March 1968, campaigning in the Republican primary in New Hampshire, the man who would become the next president of the United States laid down his marker on Vietnam: 'If in November this war is not over, I say that the American people will be justified in electing new leadership, and I pledge to you that new leadership will end the war and win the peace in the Pacific.' It was reported as if a campaign promise: A President Nixon would end the war. Nixon spent the rest of the campaign season refusing to say any more about what he meant."

Americans had to wait seven more years for this seemingly "unambiguous" pronouncement to "end the war" to become reality. No "being hawkish on defense" is not the problem. The problem is duplicity.


[ Parent ]
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