MA-05: Do Voters Trust Democrats?

by: Matt Stoller

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 09:39


For all the talk that Hillary Clinton is running a strong campaign, I think she's quite vulnerable in a general election.  The MA-05 election results, while you could chalk them up to a weak Democratic general election candidate and localized conditions, suggests that the strategy of running as a nonpartisan get things done Republican against corrupt DC Democratic insider could work.  And let's not forget, that the local dynamics notwithstanding, Ogonowski was outspent 4:1.

Giuliani is a potentially strong Republican nominee in Ogonowksi's mold, given that the right-wing noise machine, combined with Democratic ineptitude on communications, will give him the opportunity to systematically lie about his entire record and that of his opponent.  He is crazy on the Middle East, and will destroy America, but it's not clear enough that Clinton takes a different posture on Iran to have that matter.  There's actually a good but depressing case to be made that there is much less room between any of the top candidates on Iran, that the 2008 election doesn't actually matter, and that all that does matter is the gobs of money being printed by the Fed and shipped to our enemies to pay for the war in Iraq. 

But let's talk politics and what the MA-05 race means for the 2008 election.  Clinton is running a reasonable primary campaign, but in a general election campaign, though, it's going to be very difficult for her to get around perceived slippery answers on Iraq, Iran, and even torture.  She will have to make news to drown out the lies, something her current campaign isn't doing. 

While I've thought for some time that the public has learned to hate Republicans over the past seven years, I'm not so sure anymore.  Ogonowski wouldn't commit to voting for children's health care, and he came within 6 of beating Tsongas.  More than that, I think his basic argument is correct.  This Congress is broken.  Nancy Pelosi promised to 'drain the swamp' and change directions in Iraq.  That hasn't happened.  Jim Webb in his state of the Union response said that if Bush did not shift strategies 'Democrats would show him the way'.  That hasn't happened.

Ultimately, Ogonowski's argument is that there is no difference between the parties, that both are full of people who break faith to the voters.  And given that the Democratic Congress lied to the American public, promising but not delivering change in Iraq, it's actually true.  Tsongas ran a campaign playing into that, saying that her vote would end the war, which of course it won't. 

When Clinton says she'll end the war, while keeping troops in Iraq, the Republicans will be sure to point out that this is double-speak.  My crystal ball is blurry as always, and I have no idea how the Republican candidate will handle President Bush being a militaristic asshole (he can't help it) while the candidate tries to run around convincing everyone that Republicans stand for not Bush.  I can see a weird scenario where the Republican says that the Bush-Clinton war was a mistake, pointing out that Bush executed the war while Clinton authorized it, but that we have to get it right now or we'll have to go back later.  This was Ogonowski's line, and it seemed to work well enough. 

Clinton might go all Kerry-esque with the 'I voted for the authorization not the war', since that's what she genuinely thinks, and I'm now going to vomit a little in my mouth.  I can see now how all the people who think Clinton's campaign is great instead of a vicious back biting swamp that all campaigns turn out to be will turn on her, as they did Kerry's campaign.  And really a campaign isn't that complicated, but is always 'garbage moving in the right direction'.  There are a few key decisions that matter, and that's it.  Clinton made the decision to run as John Kerry 2.0, since he nearly won.  And Democratic primary voters don't really have a choice, since Clinton's the only candidate who actually understands how crazy the right-wing really is.  But anyway, Clinton could be saddled with her war vote, and Iraq may no longer be Bush's war in 2008.  She'll promise to end the war, but then again, so did the Democratic Congressional leaders.  And they didn't.

There are a lot of variables here, so one question how do we think through testing the blurring model that Ogonowski semi-successfully used.  I'm having trouble at this point advocating for a Democratic President, except that I think another Republican administration is a threat to the well-being of everyone I care about.  If I were Lee Atwater, I'd know how I'd run the Republican campaign.  It would be dirty, it would be nasty, it would be full of lies, and it would hit the Democrat from all sides, but above all, on the notion of trust.  And it's hard to argue that you should trust these Democrats.

UPDATE: There's more dismal polling.

Matt Stoller :: MA-05: Do Voters Trust Democrats?

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New Sorry Poll Results (4.00 / 4)
http://www.reuters.c...

President Bush's approval rating is down to 24%.  Too bad the Democratic Congress' approval rating has nosedived to 11%.

Solid majorities of Americans want Iraq withdrawals and an end to warrantless wiretapping.  It seems clear to me that the Rahm/Hoyer strategy of not alienating moderate voters has just alienated everybody.


the sad thing is we know exactly what It'll take Congress to rebound (4.00 / 1)
and they won't listen to us out here in the netroots. 

[ Parent ]
the sad thing is we know exactly what It'll take Congress to rebound (4.00 / 1)
and they won't listen to us out here in the netroots. 

[ Parent ]
That's the problem with the DLC'ers ... (4.00 / 1)
why do you think Feingold is beloved here? .... he takes stands ... people don't like wishy-washy asshats .. which is what Hoyer and Emanuel advocate ... it's sad

[ Parent ]
I forsee a delicate woman strategy against Hillary (0.00 / 0)
I noticed that alot of the brutal Hillary attacks from the right have been dramatically toned down for now.  If Hillary gets the nod, I suspect that the GOP candidate will try and portray Hillary as the wrong time for a woman candidate.  They will sew the seeds of doubt and mistrust.  Hillary will continue to try and protect her right flank like she has been doing by not apologizing for her vote, being blurry about when and how to remove the troops in Iraq.  It all seems like a constant placation to the military to show that she'll be tough when she needs to be.  I'm sure the GOP will make the argument that Hillary will withdraw in a careless fashion that will force America to go back into Iraq later.  She'll have to counter that argument effectively.  But our dunder headed congress have still not grasped what a gigantic blunder it was to wait for magical September.

I have a conspiratorial bent and I used to watch the show "Commander in Chief".  It was a good show and it easily gave me the impression that a woman could be President and do a good job.  It got good ratings and reviews but was inexplicably cancelled. Did some big wigs not like the idea that the show was projecting the idea that a woman could be President? Don't know.  But if the show stayed on, it would have made it that much harder for the GOP to convince people that a woman President at this time would be the wrong move.
Anyway, in general I think that there will be a constant drumbeat that Hillary won't be tough enough in a man's world and YOU should be concerned about that.  But, this is what I saw from Bill Clinton in 1993-1994, placation to hard right pressure over gays in the military etc, just because he was a Democrat.  I just don't want anymore triangulation and that kinda crap.  I'm still hoping for Edwards to break out of the pack.  I think he'll make a much better President, and definately a much more progressive President.  If it's Hillary, so be it.  But I won't be that enthused, only because I find her too calculating and too managed.


It doesn't mean much (4.00 / 4)
As democraticavenger shows, Tsongas made or beat Governor Patrick's %s in every single city and town save Dracut, Idont'knowski's hometown, and only a few others. And Deval ran the most grassroots-centric campaign you can ask. More, this district went pretty red for Romney back in 2002. The confusion with this Congressional race, like almost all others, is that it has a national impact, and candidates are supposed to be talking about issues on the national and international scales, but there was only local press and voters performed as they do on normal local political conditions. The race hardly got press in the major papers for the state until the very end. Given local conditions, Tsongas actually performed really, really well. And even if you were to project these results onto Clinton for the Presidential race (something you just can't do and be at all serious), winning by 5 points ain't bad. That's more than the Bush:Kerry margin.

In my view, Tsongas ran a pretty average campaign - it wasn't stellar, but it wasn't horrible either, and she really picked up steam at the end. Interestingly, she got hammered on healthcare in the primaries, but in the general SCHIP was handed to her on a silver platter. She was tied to the national political apparatus, but so too was Ogo. In the end, Tsongas won, Ogo lost, it could have been worse.


i linked to that piece (4.00 / 1)
That's true, but keep in mind that Ogo was outspent 4:1. 

[ Parent ]
And that's annoying, (0.00 / 0)
but I think that's the way Tsongas ran her campaign. She ran a much more televised, insiderish, expensive campaign. Personally, I didn't feel that excited to work for her, though I know a lot of folks were. But my sense is that the grassroots MA folk have been busy up in NH and on other projects, so Tsongas needed the extra funding to overcompensate. I think stomv makes a really good point
I saw very little buzz outside of Mass blogs about the race, and I think it's indicative of that assumption that MA Dems will always get the job done with no help needed.
A congressional race is a congressional race, and I think a lot of people phoned this one in, assuming that it's MA, and hey, we can't lose.

[ Parent ]
Also see Richard Howe (4.00 / 1)
Richard Howe does a great job of breaking down the results by town as well. After Dracut, Ogo's top performing town, there's no town that Ogo won by more than 585 votes. Whereas for Tsongas after Lawrence, Tsongas's top performing city, Tsongas won 4 cities by well over 1000 votes.

That is, (0.00 / 0)
Tsongas's vote total in her best city beats out his best city, her second best, his second best, etc. etc. all they way down the line.

[ Parent ]
Oboma and Edwards will do better? (4.00 / 1)
Where's the argument that Obama and Edwards can outdo Clinton against the right-wing slime machine?

There is no argument.

While their stances might seem more popular (though that's not reflecting in the polls), they've both demonstrated an inability to do the dirty work needed to fight back.

Edwards' campaign took a huge blow over a "haircut" story which ran endlessly without a successful strategy to stop the bleeding. And Obama's idea of fighting Hillary (which is difficult when you base your campaign on the "politics of hope" and you can be easily branded a hypocrite) is to use the same arguments against her, with minor tweaks and invoking her "name." Scary!!!! Even the Daily Show last night mocked Obama for such a non-effective, seemingly ridiculous, approach.

And we know the unpopularity of Congress is due to the war, but I was never under any illusion they could single handidly stop it. Yes I'm pissed, but Democrats are driving down the polls -- and if you think you're going to have a sea of populist Republicans running against their party and the establishment and Democrats will vote for these renegade Republicans in large numbers, I'd bet against that happening. They are organized when they are one, they don't do the "by myself" well at all.

And, what so often gets glossed over, is the generic numbers (Democrats vs. Republicans) are still wildly in the Democrats' favor. 

But back the campaign, it is no surprise that Giuliani will be the ugliest, most vile SOB out there if he wins the nomination and direct this at any candidate. We've also seen attacks on the Clinton's work in certain segments, but have historically backfired and NO ONE has more experience dealing with this slime machine than the Clinton's.

I'd rather line up with a person who has already been slammed, and knows how to handle it (and can put up the best street fight) then the feeble abilities demonstrated by Obama and Edwards to take on the crazy heavyweights like Giuliani.

Clinton's know how to wrap George Bush around Giuliani (think Gingrich 1996. They mastered the art of repetition and hammering single themes (like Bush 2004). They know how to successfully exploit candidate's weaknesses (which are endless in teh Republican party).

I have no confidence "happy-go-lucky" Edwards and "Politics of Hope" Obama can deliver once the volume is raised. I don't trust them.


Agree (0.00 / 0)
I have a love-hate relationship with both Clinton's but there is no doubt they understand how to play hardball politics. 

[ Parent ]
Oboma and Edwards will do better? (0.00 / 0)
I don't see why we should think Clinton would be any better off when the slings and arrows fly.  Sure she has been through it but I don't see anything to suggest that she knows how to deflect it any better.

Now that our long Bush nightmare is almost over, my recollection of the Clinton years as the 'good old days' has starting to fade as I looked with hope upon 2008. When I think back I am starting to remember the frustrations I had with Bill not only on policy but also in how his administration dealt with the VRWC.  While the many policy failures bothered me, it was the Dems inability to successfully fight back against the GOP slime machine that has been the biggest disaster.  We lost Universal Health Care, then Congress, then the last two years of Bill's presidency, and finally the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.  All due to the inability to fight back against the smear machine. It is hard to see any of those losses as being on their own merits, each was successfully destroyed by falsity, lies, and manipulation.

As Matt suggests Clinton is setting herself up nicely to fall into this same sort of trap where to avoid her own personal issues she offers so little ground breaking policy promises that it once again comes down to which candidate do you want to have a beer with.  The GOP has successfully blinded just enough Americans of their own lunacy by always making the campaign a battle of personalities.  While I find the top tier Dem candidates to be a pretty poor lot, I do hope that enough of the American people have woken up to the lunacy of the right and will ignore the personality wars and finally vote in their individual best interests.


[ Parent ]
None of the candidates (0.00 / 0)
None of the candidates have offered "ground breaking policy"

Please...if you want to make a strong argument then when you make a statement about Clinton (e.g., not making ground breaking policy) then PLEASE show me how the OTHER candidates ARE.

You CAN'T because they are following the same play book. If anything, Clinton has come out with more interesting proposals to date. Obama seems to talk in platitudes and Edwards keeps repeating how he is a mill farmer while getting $500 hair cuts.

But to the larger point, politicians in campaigns never get into too many specifics because then you have the traditional media and opposition blogs nitpicking it down before it even comes up for air. Unfortunate, yes -- but a point not to be ignored. I don't fault any of the candidates for being cautious. Media created that environment.

As for you thinking Hillary won't fair better than Obama or Edwards when it comes to the "machine", I'd have to strongly disagree. Everyone knows Hillary's personality -- and she can exploit Benito Giuliani (who I am convinced will be the nominee) better than ANY of the others.

She has learned a LOT from her experience (as successes mounted after missteps in '94). But the feebleness of Obama and Edwards to make even the softest punch result in any impact shows they need a lot more experience. I've seen Benito Giuliani in action -- and he will be the most vile beast. He will make Rove look like Captain Kangaroo.

And I'm done with "on the job" training - especially when we are dealing with the lying Republican machine.


[ Parent ]
Woops (0.00 / 0)
Meant "son of a mill farmer."

[ Parent ]
Reading comprehension 101 (0.00 / 0)
I said that none of the Dem candidates were that good from my perspective.  I don't have any faith that Hillary will be any better against attacks on her than Obama and Edwards. 

My worry with this current lot is that the campaign will quickly spiral into a personal grudge match because none of the Democrats have offered us much in the way of ground-breaking promises.  They are all nuance and position shifts and triangulation.  I would rather have had a candidate with a clearly progressive platform along with saying troops are out of Iraq the second after they complete the oath of office (even if it isn't entirely true).  I would much rather the campaign focus on the Dem candidate as a 'liberal' with the right constantly attacking policies they really fear rather than knowing they don't have to do any heavy defense of their own tired policies since the Democrat isn't promising anything that excites Americans.

I have always felt that the religious right would vote for Satan if his sole campaign promise was to ban abortion upon taking office and I think most Americans would ignore the personal attacks and even some true pecadillos if a strong Democratic candidate came with a clear, aggressive slate of progressive policies, getting out of Iraq ASAP, and restoring power to the people.

I too lived in NYC during Giuliani's reign so I know what he is about, but I also know quite a few hardcore religious righties and they are ready to back a third party candidate if Rudy wins.  I think the GOP will fight hard to defeat Giuliani and then rely on the milquetoast Democratic platform to allow them to run their smear game with whatever tired white man they trot out.  As I said, I hope 8 years of GOP mismanagement will make the majority ignore the GOP's campaign of smears, but I don't think Hillary is any more of a guarantee than Obama or Edwards.


[ Parent ]
I hope you are right (0.00 / 0)
I hope you are right about Giuliani and I am wrong. I'm just getting myself mentally prepared for him as the likely nominee and fear I will have to soon ask my doctor for a Xanax script once he starts shouting his blood curtailing venom.

I said that none of the Dem candidates were that good from my perspective.

Well I think "Mind Reading 101" might have helped me come to that conclusion, because it was far from stated or implied in your text. After reading your last statement, though, I see your point (though I still think Hillary will fare better against the slime machine looking at her history. She is not going to sail through by any means, but none of them would)


[ Parent ]
Mind reading or just reading to the end? (0.00 / 0)
"While I find the top tier Dem candidates to be a pretty poor lot, I do hope that enough of the American people have woken up to the lunacy of the right and will ignore the personality wars and finally vote in their individual best interests."

The last line of my reply to your first post.  I am not impressed with any of the top tier Dems.  They have all taken rather weak positions in my opinion.

I initially was worried about Rudy, but the more he talks the more he just seems even wackier than his last years as mayor.  I think with him looking psycho as well as his inability to shore up his right-wing bona fides it will make him a less dangerous general election opponent than I earlier thought.  Rudy got more and more wacko as he held power in NYC.  I don't remember him being this nutty when he first ran for mayor.


[ Parent ]
Borak Oboma (0.00 / 0)
Borak Oboma is a sexy man just like Teve Torbs. I will vote for Borak Oboma.

I you want health care, work hard. If you want universal health care, vote for liberals.

[ Parent ]
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