The Magic Synthesis and Hillary's Lead

by: Matt Stoller

Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 14:03


I thought the debate was boring and irrelevant at the time it happened.  And it turns out that the public pretty much agreed.

Data from the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll shows that on the two nights following the debate (Wednesday and Thursday) Clinton held a 45% to 18% lead over Barack Obama. For Clinton, that's an improvement from Monday and Tuesday nights when her lead over Obama had been 40% to 24%.

John Edwards was at 10% on the first two nights and 12% on Wednesday and Thursday. Bill Richardson went from 5% to 7% during the same time frames.

Caution must be used in interpreting these results for several reasons.

First, the sample sizes are very small-447 Likely Primary Voters on the first two nights and 435 on the second two nights. The margin of sampling error for each set of data is +/- 5 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. So, Clinton's gain and Obama's decline may be nothing more than statistical noise. However, it is fairly safe to conclude that Obama did not immediately gain any ground.

Rasmussen reports that most of the country just wasn't paying attention.  And that makes sense.  The reason that Clinton's 'awful week' didn't matter at all is because her week was only awful in the land of pundits and hardcore political supporters of the other candidates.  There's this weird magic synthesis necessary to make a change in a political system.  It can't be done just by supporters, and it can't be done just by a candidate or elite decision-maker.  It has to be both at the same time, an elite decision-maker deciding to do something a large group of people have organized to ask that decision-maker to do.

Clinton has that synthesis with women and base Democrats who hate the right-wing.  They want her to win as a woman, and she's winning as a woman.  It's sad that she's a conservative, and I can't support her, but you can't overlook her synthetic relationship with many Democrats.  Obama and Edwards have both blown up their relationship with progressive opinion leaders, and so they can't achieve this synthesis.  They have done so by refusing to commit to removing all troops from Iraq, by condemning Moveon, and by generally failing to lead on anything progressive.

There's a large untapped group of people who believe that the Republican Party leadership is a gang of criminals and that the Democrats need to stop them and haven't.  No one is talking to this group of people.  Instead, the arguments at the debate centered on attacking illegal immigrants, going after a Clinton for spinning, and attacking Hillary Clinton for being a political woman.  Yeah, ok, these are great arguments to use in a Democratic primary.

I don't want Clinton to win.  I really really don't.  I've been in a campaign commercial attacking her, and I'm on record going after her for failing to lead on Iraq and on having a corrupt Clintonista machine.  But I'm not a fool, and I'm not going to lie about a race and pretend her rivals are doing a good job or acting like progressives when they aren't.  Clinton is a bad candidate, but there's very little difference between Obama, Edwards, and Clinton, except that Clinton is a more skilled politician.

This race is putting progressives in a horrible position.  There's no candidate to get behind.

Matt Stoller :: The Magic Synthesis and Hillary's Lead

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Jeez (0.00 / 0)
Do you make the 35 cutoff for 2013? :)

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

Matt you forgot the rest of Rasmussen's comments (4.00 / 4)
Caution must be used in interpreting these results for several reasons.

First, the sample sizes are very small-447 Likely Primary Voters on the first two nights and 435 on the second two nights. The margin of sampling error for each set of data is +/- 5 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. So, Clinton's gain and Obama's decline may be nothing more than statistical noise. However, it is fairly safe to conclude that Obama did not immediately gain any ground.

Second, while there was no immediate impact, it is possible that Obama and Edwards will find a way to capitalize on the Clinton stumbles between now and the Iowa caucuses on January 3. In fact, general public awareness of the debate performance may continue to grow on its own over the coming weeks. Additionally, there may be a general election impact as Senator Clinton's answer supported two enormously unpopular concepts (drivers licenses for illegal immigrants and the comprehensive immigration reform that failed in the Senate).

Third, while there is little or no national fallout from the debate, the impact may be different in early voting state. Clinton currently leads in both Iowa and New Hampshire, Rasmussen Reports will conduct additional polling in these states over the next two weeks.


[ Parent ]
I appreciate the honesty - all the way around (0.00 / 0)
I agree that Clinton is the more skilled opponent. Where we disagree is you characterization of her as a bad candidate. You're just plain wrong there.

Maybe others don't want to play the gender card but I will right now. Women just think different. They seem much more capable of seeing all sides of any issue - mabye it's the empathy thing - but having looked at all sides they seek a consensus position that dosn't freeze others out. To me that is a good thing. No one gets everything they want, but they all get enough that they can move forward.

To me that is the ESSENCE of governing. Maybe it looks a little like chicken soup at the end, but at least there's food on the table for everyone at the end of the day.

Hillary wins in a landslide in 2008


Ceiling (4.00 / 3)
She has a ceiling of about 47-48 percent. This is due to the fact that at least 45 % will not vote for her.

Also she is losing the male voter. Her numbers may well be high for women, but are low for males. Also independents are not going over to her.

Finally Iowa is all tied up between 3 candidates and if she loses Iowa, I predict that the winner will get a 15-20 pt bump in the poll. If this happens then she only has a 50% CHANCE OF BEING THE NOMINEE.


[ Parent ]
Huh? She is winning (0.00 / 0)
by almost twenty points among men. There's only a four point gap between her male and female support according to the latest (Sept/Oct) Pew omnibus.

Actually, her strongest age/gender group in that poll is men over 50 - she leads that group by 27 points.

It's true that she not walking away with Iowa and it will really change the game if she loses, but lets be accurate about the gender gap.


[ Parent ]
re HUH (0.00 / 0)
That's my position exactly.  She is far ahead of this pack and can certainly win.  These people all keep quoting that Zogby online poll with the 48% number because it's all they've got.  While polls at this point are not fully dispositive, they are decent snapshots and Hillary is in a lot better place than her competition.

Unfortunately, I've come to believe that left blogostan is a very dishonest place and candidate true believers are mainly a bunch of self-delusional liars (see Bush/Cheney for examples).

Guess I come from a strange place but I don't trust or believe anything which comes from a true believer.  Once the kool-aid has been drunk, their discipline and good sense go out the door.

While it's true that I am a socially liberal fiscally conservative democrat in the mold of Howard Dean, before his 04 web makeover, I believe Hillary Clinton can and will win the presidency and be very good at it.  She's got my vote anyway.


[ Parent ]
Let me see.....Oh! Yeah! 'Year of the Woman'.... (4.00 / 1)
that certainly turned out well for progressives and 'food on the table...'

Feinstein...'He's not Alberto Gonzales!'

Pelosi...'It's Off the Table....'

Boxer....'My good friend and collegue Joseph Lieberman...'

Identity politics is a specialty of the Republicans. Is this where we are now because Hillary feels it's her 'right' to be President?

I strongly disagree with that.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
I Would be in a Similar Boat as Matt (4.00 / 2)
If John Edwards were not in the race.  I would wonder whom to get behind, and I probably would not know until I got into the voting booth, except I know I couldn't blacken the dot next to Clinton's name. 

Edwards was the first to have bloggers at the onset of his campaign, to denounce Fox News as a legit news outlet for debates, is serious about public financing for campaigns, and has more details for plans than the other candidates--and was also the first to do them, very early on.

I guess there could be some primary fatigue at the moment for some. 

I'm not certain Clinton has this in the bag, and recently, I think Clinton realized she has to run in the primary.  Running a primary and a general election one is a lot of pressure, and we saw what happened the other night.

I'm fortunate to have a candidate I trust who will restore sanity back to our country and start the healing process in Africa and the Middle East.


Similar feeling (4.00 / 1)
But for me the candidate who really excited me is Obama.  He has the judgement to speak out against the war before it was popular to do so, and has shown that his instincts are towards multilateralism and peaceful solutions to international problems.

He also clearly wants to be the president of all Americans, we might be frustrated that he does not pander to us, but he does not pander to any part of America.  He is willing to go to Mega-churches and talk about the need for religious freedom and tolerance, and taking the need for improved CAFE standards to Detroit.  He also talks to secular liberals about the need for understanding of our more religious neighbors.

There never going to be a politician who I agree with on ever issue unless I run myself, I will content myself with someone whose judgement I trust and who can inspire the nations to make the difficult choices and hard sacrifices that we will need to make.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
I cannot understand why Edwards is... (4.00 / 3)
...dismissed here so readily.

Having been beaten up over at OrangeLand for having the temerity to say that HRC's chariot ride up the Appenine to 'Glorious Rome' is a bad thing for the nation. I am again confronted with the fact that neither Matt nor Chris will recognize John Edward's stated position on troop withdrawal from Iraq.

Apparently the candidate's words are no more than meaningless sounds when they are not in line with the 'Versailles' so-called 'reality'. Which even in opposing many in Free Left Blogistan internalize.

Going to go sulk at my blog for a while.

Try and pull things together here will ya.

Edwards/Dodd 08!

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Sad but true comment, Matt (0.00 / 0)
At least she knows how to attack Republicans.  I just wish she'd stop voting with them so often.

Don't confuse your views Matt (4.00 / 2)
with what other people can 'get behind." When "I" become "we" is when you cross the line towards self importance. For the record, since when have Americans ever cared significantly about primary debates? Historical context? You know what - nevermind. You won't answer.

Excellent point ... the significance of the debate ... (4.00 / 2)
... is mostly that its the first debate where the punditry and conventional wisdom were willing to declare the debate as it was seen by focus groups and critics watching the debate ... previously, Hillary has been able to win the post-debate coverage ... despite not having the strongest performance on the night.

However, if its the only time that Hillary fails to control the post-debate coverage, it will only be a blip on the road ... especially since it was in Philadelphia, and Iowa and New Hampshire voters tend to pay more attention to debates in-state.

Indeed, with Politics of Parsing having gone viral (#2 on the Viral Video chart), its quite possible that the Politics of Parsing well end up being seen by far more people than the debate audience or those catching the post-debate coverage.

Of course, if Hillary has more trouble controlling the news cycles over the next two months, people will back-date the trend to starting at this debate ... but that's just the illusion of 20/20 hindsight. In reality, it seems like the fight on this front of the campaign will continue all the way through January.


[ Parent ]
Right now I don't think we can tell what Pres Hil will be like (0.00 / 0)
Her room to manouvre on foreign policy will be limited by the fact that Bush has shattered the military....I cannot see how she can make any progress on that front without help from Clark, who will surely be VP or SofD or SofS....I am sure that China will be looming large as well, now that they've had a chance to sit back and watch the US self-destruct militarily and econmically....And Russia is coming back, and Putin is not going to take any crap....

So the question is, given that she is a very smart and disciplined person (and at least in this respect, she should make a better president than her husband), can she meet challenges like:

* overcoming the trauma of the 90s healthcare fiasco and taking on the insurance companies again (which will include taking on the Democratic Congress that will be in the pockets of the insurance industry); she will at least understand as her husband did that budget deficits will continue out of control until health care spending is brought under control

* overcoming the AIPAC lobby and trying once again to solve the Israeli-Palestinian issue; like it or not, any resolution to the Afghanistan and Iraq fiasco will have to involve a solution to this issue; again this will require taking on a Democratic Congress in the pocket of AIPAC

* having the imagination to realize that global warming is going to take a national commitment bigger than the Apollo program to avoid global ecological catastrophe; and here she is going to have to take on oil and coal interests in Congress (I assume the auto companies are finished, killed off by their own stupidity)

Those are just examples of the huge challenges facing the next president.  If one had any ambitions to tackle any of these issues, do you seriously think one would put one's neck out and offer your opponents leverage for attacks?  Not with the relentlessly stupid media in this country.  More likely to keep offering bland reassurance while projecting an aura of inevitability.

Although I've heard some worry that HRC will be another Carter, remember that Carter had a lot of things right, including recognizing the need for a national energy policy, and he did some good things for Middle East peace and human rights (e.g. leaving Somoza out to dry).  And although Democratic Congress' have a history of eating Democratic Presidents alive (watch these spineless worms turn on a Democratic president in 09), Hil and Bill could between them have the skills and relationship that LBJ had to play Congress in the 60s.

Of course to get there, she will have to fight an utterly unscrupulous loony who is loved by the media.  I do not think it is at all clear that Hil can beat Sejanus.  OTOH, I don't see any of the Democratic alternatives having the strength and discipline to take him on.  For that reason alone, she may be the best nominee in 08.  This is going to be a very tough, very dirty election.  The Kerry experience tells me that the Clintonistas at this point are the only ones who understand how this game is played at the presidential level.


We do have some strong indications... (4.00 / 1)
on what an HRC presidency might mean.  I doubt Big Pharma would heavily support anyone in favor of serious health care reform.  More broadly, I can't see NewsCorp/FOX News holding fundraisers for a genuine progressive - period.  Corporations aren't stupid with their cash very often, and they're sending it by the truckload to Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[ Parent ]
The monied interests in the 1932 election.... (0.00 / 0)
....thought they were sending "one of their own" to the White House.....

I'm not predicting she will be the next FDR.  But given how catastrophic the Bush adminisration has been, I don't think she will have the luxury of pandering to monied interests as President.  The country has profound structural problems, it is in many respects in terrible shape, and fixing these will require going up against the vested corporate interests that enabled the Bush presidency.

In this respect, I see the main problem not with the White House but with the Capitol.  A President will at some point start thinking about their place in history.  As Feinstein for example demonstrates, a member of Congress in their final term and approaching 80 is still apparently mainly concerned with where the next corporate dollar is going to come from.


[ Parent ]
Re: Clark (0.00 / 0)
Under the National Security Act of 1947 (as amended) and in the absence of special legislation similar to the Marshall Amendment of 1950, Clark *cannot* be SecDef.

[ Parent ]
progressives (3.43 / 7)
"This race is putting progressives in a horrible position.  There's no candidate to get behind."

Whatever Matt. Speak for yourself, don't denigrate my choice of a progressive candidate by acting like you speak for all of us.


Progressives (4.00 / 6)
Thanks for you comment, adamterando.  I'm going to pile on even more.  Who are these so called progressive opinion leaders?  You, Markos, Bowers, Feingold, Ted Kennedy, Jane Hamsher, Miss Laura, clammyc. Tell us Matt.  This diary drips with self-importance.  John Edwards has pledged to get all our troops out of Iraq by 2009, with only a small contingent to guard the embassy, and I bet he would consider closing it, if conditions on the ground continue to deteriorate. He's called (yelled really) on Congress to stop funding the war without a timetable.  He called for Abu Gonzales to resign, he opposed Mukasey's nomination. I don't know exactly what kind of candidate fulfills your ideal, but if you can't get behind one who speaks up for the poor, the near poor, and the rest of the middle class whose wages have stagnated, or have recently lost their job, then who can you get behind?  I guess not one candidate, all of whom are outstanding will do, huh. Tell me why, if JRE isn't good enough you don't support Kucinich?  The progressive leaders in So. Calif are throwing their support to JRE or Dennis. And we're not just sitting around blogging and bitching, but giving money, making phone calls, and walking precincts. Stop your pining for the perfect candidate and get on the bus. 

[ Parent ]
5 mojos for that comment (4.00 / 2)
Well said.  Much better than what I said, although I stand by that I would have trouble deciding.

I know I spent a good chunk of time asking registered voters to sign a ballot petition to get JRE on in IL.  I didn't get a boatload considering I live in a rural area, but it was enough to help the cause.

Progressives are not in trouble at this point, but they could be if apathy sets in, just as the commenter suggests.



[ Parent ]
Thanks, Benny for your nice words. And thanks for helping JRE (4.00 / 1)
He will help our progressive movement!

[ Parent ]
Good comment. (4.00 / 1)
Thanks for all you're doing.

[ Parent ]
What's a "synthetic relationship?" (4.00 / 2)
Don't get me wrong, I agree that 90% of HRC is synthetic (ie. artificially generated in a PR Petri dish).  But this phrase seems to be used to describe her ability to bring Democrats together.  I just don't understand that.  Under no circumstances would I consider voting for this corporate lackey, and I am not alone (some believe a WalMart Director can make a fine progressive; others disagree).

Not just the majority of Democrats, but the majority of this country is united in the need for change.  Edwards, Obama, Dodd, or Richardson would have 100% of the Democratic support plus a large majority of the Independents and even some soon to be former Republicans.

HRC as the nominee would result in a significant exodus of progressives from the party, demands for a third party candidate, and, at the very least, widespread apathy among some of the party's formerly most activist and motivated members. 

Follow the money.  Corporations are setting this up to be a win/win scenario in the general election.  A Hillary nomination is all they need.


ha (0.00 / 0)
example buffoonery

[ Parent ]
I think that a lot of progressives (0.00 / 0)
are slowly getting sucked into the Hillary camp, if not as true believers, then as reluctant "what other choice do we have?" supporters, due to at least two factors as I see it.

One, the inability of the rest of the pack to substantively and consistently differentiate themselves as much better than her on a range of issues, even if each of them might be better to one degree or another on a few of them (Dodd's opposition to Mukasey and FISA are certainly commendable and appreciated, but where has he been till now?).

And two, the desire to rally around one heir apparent and present a united front against whoever the GOP sends up, as early as possible, and focus on the real battle up ahead, between our side and theirs, and not within our side (not that the latter isn't an important one, but it's dwarved by the other one).

I.e. not enough centrigfugal forces pulling people away from Hillary and towards another candidate, and growing centripetal forces pulling people towards Hillary.

Never having been a Deaniac myself, I find this to be somewhat reminiscent of '04, when I, like many, found myself gravitating towards Kerry because he seemed like the candidate who had the best chance of beating Bush, who also had a good chance of winning the nomination. I initially supported Clark, whom I thought had a better chance of beating Bush and who impressed me more as a man and candidate, but when his campaign seemed to be going nowhere, I decided to back Kerry.

Same thing now. I initially leaned towards Obama, but he's kind of gone nowhere as a candidate since announcing, and has been disappointing as a politician too. I like Dodd, but he has no chance of being nominated as I see it. So I find myself being slowly and reluctantly pulled towards Hillary, not enthusiastically, but out of a sense of who's any better, who also has a chance of winning both the nomination and presidency? I don't see anyone else.

I haven't made up my mind, and I have just over 3 months till the WA caucus (at which point it'll probably be all over anyway, so who I support is almost a moot point). And all sorts of things can happen between now and then, or between now and IA/NH. But it's looking more and more like Hillary to me.

We're not going to get a truly progressive president this time around, and probably not till '16 at the earliest. I think that we should instead focus on getting a more progressive Democratic party, congressional caucus, and congress, by '10 or '12, which seems a lot more feasible (but of course also very hard).

I think that we should also focus more on making the country more progressive, and get it to reject modern conservatism. That's ultimately how to not only make the party and congress more progressive, but keep it that way. People elect politicians, not activists and bloggers. Get people to change their views to be more progressive, and activists and bloggers wouldn't have to work so hard to get them to vote for progressives.

For now, though, it's looking more and more like Hillary, but even if not, whoever wins will almost certainly not be a true progressive, and we'll need to figure out a way to work with and around that. Just as we've been trying to do with congressional Dems.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


yeah pretty much... (0.00 / 0)
oh how I long, long, long for a Howard Dean type of candidate that says and acts how I believe.

I wish Russ would have run.

-C.


Hillary a "conservative" ??? (4.00 / 2)
"it's sad that she's a conservative ..."

what planet do you live on.  Hillary's record is as progressive (if not more so) as Obama's and FAR more progressive than Edwards.  I'm really tired of "progressives" claiming that Hillary is somehow "conservative" based on a few select issues; the whole record counts.

btw, if youre wondering why Hillary is running away with the nomination, its because there are thousands upon thousands of progressives like me who realize that Hillary is the only true progressive in this race.  its funny how some of the same people who claimed that Gore was "conservative" and no different from Bush back in 2000, now think that hes the next best thing to mom and apple pie and a model for the progressive movement.  teh good news is that these same people will realize this same thing about Hillary, when she becomes President a year from now ...


I agree (0.00 / 0)
Yeah he lost me when he called her a "conservative."

Maybe she doesn't check off some of the boxes in dark enough ink that Matt holds closest to his heart, but his visceral "Andrew Sullivan"-esque dislike for her is really clouding any rational analysis he makes of HRC and the race at large.

The Gore example you stated was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read Matt's post. It's like no one ever learns from the past...


[ Parent ]
What is so progressive about her record? (0.00 / 0)
Her positions change constantly and seems to have no core values.

Voting for the AUF AND VOTING FOR THE kyle/Lieberman amendment is not a progressive action to me. It is a Hawkish position that is giving this administration the go ahead to engage in war.

I am a Vietnam veteran who has seen war close-up and it is not pretty. That is why most military people who have participated in war are the most reluctant to want to go to war.

Hillary or Bill have never been to war and Chelsea will never be affected by war, so Hillary has no stake in her votes only for their impact on her political fortunes.


[ Parent ]
choices (0.00 / 0)
You can sit on the sidelines and complain. You can sit the primary out. You can vote third party.

Or you can do everything in your power to ensure that HRC (the least progressive of them all) is not elected. 

I happen to like Obama but I don't care if its Edwards, Dodd or Biden. Anyone but Clinton!

We all have choices.


The Way to Lose (0.00 / 0)
Hillary Clinton is not a conservative.  She's just a reasonably liberal Democratic politician who needs the votes of nonliberal independents and disillusioned Republican women to win an election.  The Republican nominee is going to be a wingnut dressed (by the corporate media) in moderate clothing. That candidate will defeat a Democrat who says nothing but what Matt Stoller wants to hear. 

With your powers you should play the lottery (0.00 / 0)
since according to you what is now is what always must be.

[ Parent ]
oh (0.00 / 0)
and with that thought process its amazing the reagan revolution ever occured. i guess they didn't have the weakness that i see on the so called left as exemplified in your post.

[ Parent ]
Forced by circumstances to back Dodd. (0.00 / 0)
Kindof a bummer.  Obama's spectacular flame-out has been the buzzkill of the year.

Kyl-Lieberman (0.00 / 0)
If the Fourth Branch of Government decides it's time to bomb Teheran, he'll have Bush issue the order. Kyl-Lieberman? I doubt he's even heard of it. Clinton sees it as a "get out of jail free card" she can use at a debate.
It was never worth much more than that. 

no one for the progressives to get behind? (0.00 / 0)
i gotta agree that no informed true progressive could get behind clinton, obama or edwards. 

(althought some "progressives" have the amazing ability to forget about voting records, namely consistent funding and approval of war.  could it be some kind of hypnotism luling the mind into a state of wishfull thinking?)

but what about kucinich?  no one can say that he is not the progressives dream come true, at to the charge of "unelectability" we have to realise that no true progressive will ever be portrayed as electable by the corporate media. 


Sorry, but I'm a "true" progressive, who is very well informed (0.00 / 0)
And I'm aware of John Edwards voting record, which he has ackowledged mistakes were made.  John Edwards has changed, evolved if you will, to a more progressive Democrat, and his campaign plank indicates that.  I, too, was more centrist Dem, and non-activist up until a few years ago when I became involved in a Democratic club exposed to, and educated about progressive issues, such as healthcare, education, and economic justice, just to name a few issues progressives are leading on, and John Edwards positions on these issues represent mine and many "true" progressives. 

[ Parent ]
Clinton as candidate: (0.00 / 0)
"Clinton is a bad candidate, but there's very little difference between Obama, Edwards, and Clinton, except that Clinton is a more skilled politician."

I also feel that she is more intelligent than the above.


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