Edwards, Clinton and Obama All Still Talking Residual Forces

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 20:55


This issue really isn't going away. In fact, it seems to have turned into a full-blown, public policy discussion now. Edwards continues to attack Clinton over residual forces:

Just what does it mean to end combat missions in Iraq? Democrats John Edwards and Hillary Rodham Clinton both say that's what they want, but their campaigns disagree on what it adds up to.

Edwards has been criticizing Clinton for her plan to continue combat missions against al-Qaida in Iraq. His campaign says that would be a continuation of what it calls the "U.S. occupation" that he will end if elected president.

Edwards says that doesn't mean he'll stop fighting against terrorists in Iraq. The difference, he told The Boston Globe in an article published Thursday, is that his counterterrorism missions would be based in Kuwait and elsewhere in the Middle East and conduct quick "expeditions" into Iraq.

Clinton's campaign says either way, sending troops to fight would be a combat mission in Iraq.(…)

Edwards' campaign said whether the combat troops are in the country or not is an important distinction. Troops on bases in Iraq would become targets for insurgents, symbolize continuing U.S. occupation, inevitably get drawn into other missions and prevent Iraqis from moving toward sovereignty, the campaign said.(…)

Advisers to Barack Obama, another Democratic presidential candidate, said he would also have quick reaction forces to fight terrorism in Iraq, but he hasn't determined whether they would be based inside or outside the country. Obama has said outside might be preferable, but it's a decision he would make with military commanders.

The scope of the continuing missions in Iraq, where the troops will be based, even how many of them will stay in Iraq: it is excellent that this is all getting out in the open. Although never mentioned in the article, it should be noted that this discussion would never even be taking place if it were not for Bill Richardson. Today, his no residual force position rightfully earned him the endorsement of a key peace activism group in Iowa. No matter how much blog pressure might be applied, it is impossible to have a continued debate on any subject at this high of a level unless a more public Democratic takes a leadership role over it. Bill Richardson has done that, and deserves tremendous credit for it.

I also appreciate that Edwards is starting to take a higher profile role attacking on these grounds, and I think he is correct to assert that there is a big difference as to where the troops are based. Personally, I think it is a bad idea to continue to conduct these missions in Iraq at all, since they serve as a key terrorist recruiting tool. It doesn't seem to me that it will be fighting terrorism at all--it seems as though it might end up fueling it. Of course, it will fuel it less to be based outside the country than to be based inside. And it is kind of irritating that Obama remains so enigmatic on this subject.

It would be much easier for both Edwards and Obama to successfully attack Clinton on this subject if they held Bill Richardson's position on Iraq. However, progress is still being made. The next step will be when the campaigns try to start one-upping each other by proposing fewer and fewer residual force missions, as they have already done when it comes to proposing faster and faster withdrawals from Iraq. It certainly looks like the only way to end American military involvement in the Iraq war will be for the next President to end it, and the only way for the President to do so will be to have no residual forces. That has been the goal of this campaign all along, and I am glad it has gotten this far.

Chris Bowers :: Edwards, Clinton and Obama All Still Talking Residual Forces

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As Long As 'The Great Game' Is Being Played, There'll Be "Residual" USer Troops There (4.00 / 1)
It is completely unbelievable that any USer regime will withdraw USer forces from the foothold they've established in the middle east in Iraq. From Kirkuk (where there's a humongoid US base), it's only about 2000 miles to Kazakhstan, as the B2-B flies. Kazakhstan sits atop energy resources projected to equal those opf Saudi in its prime.It is absolutely necessary in the "Real Politik" of the region that USer interests be able to (what they call) "project USer influence" out into the still-nearly virgin energy-resource fields of the trans-caucasus and the trans-caspian regions, where Russia, China, and India all have super-power aspirations and extant positions.

And that is to say nothing at all about the hue and cry that will erupt when a (newly fledged, Dem) President tries to withdraw and leave behind and unrequited the sacrifices of the 5000 (or howsoever-many) "heroes" who died that Iraqi Oil should be free (to Exxon-Mobil).


I'm afraid you're right (0.00 / 0)
This quaint little discussion of pre-primary campaign stances completely ignores the REAL reason we are in Iraq:  OIL.  The fact is, the current bloated American lifestyle requires an ongoing fix for our addiction to fossil fuel, and what the candidates say -- or, for that matter, what they may want to do -- will make not a whit of differnece in the ultimate policy decisions regarding Iraq. 

This country is committed to using our (current) military superiority to appropriate the resources we need to continue our lifestyle; that means staying in Iraq, and going after Iran. 

One of the big mistakes BushCo made in the Iraq war was to think they needed a "publically palatable" reason for invading Iraq like WMD. If they had come out and said, "We need their oil, and if we don't get it, you won't be able to drive your SUVs anymore," they probably would have needed barricades at the recruiting stations to keep the crowds away.

The sad part is that we will neither maintain our lifestyle nor retain our hold on the resources we have so brutally appropriated. 

History is littered with the carcasses of great nations whose lust for power exceeded their ability to wield it.

I suspect we shall presently join them.
 

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]
Edwards position (4.00 / 1)
From what I've heard Edwards say in the past, his position on the rapid reaction force is much more of a contingency force than a group that is expected to be continually performing missions.  The Globe hasn't released a transcript of their interview with Edwards, so we can't be sure.  But I expect that is what he was describing there.

It does seem to me to be a significant difference from Clinton and Obama.  If Obama isn't committing to removing those forces from Iraq before the Democratic primaries, he doesn't plan on doing it.  After this the pressure starts tilting right-ward.


I agree with you on this.... (4.00 / 3)
...there seems to be a ingrained resistance here and elsewhere to hearing what John Edwards is saying:

All combat troops out of Iraq in 9-10 months. Troops stationed in the area to provide security if needed. Just like they have been in the past. If you watch video clips of Edwards answering questions about this he's quite definite about pulling the vast majority of our troops out and stopping combat.

Unlike say, Clinton who will do no such thing and has said so and Obama who apparently doesn't know what the DLC wants him to say.

Frankly the obstinate refusal here to recognize that Edwards has a viable position on this issue as opposed to Richardson's which is great but not the only good one reminds me of the New Left in the 60s attitude towards those who did not agree with every nuance of Marxist dialectic and what they believed it demanded of the 'movement'.

Edwards is not a perfect candidate but he's head and shoulders above Clinton and Obama and yes Richardson who has now achieved the status here that Kucinich holds at dKos. Unelectable but oh, oh, oh so desirable.

While folks here flirt with Bill....

Clinton is gonna sneak by Edwards and that will be a disaster.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Edwards will cut military waste - will Richardson? (4.00 / 1)
JE has been endorsed by Iowans for Sensible Priorities (see Dailykos diary here), a group devoted to cutting wasteful military spending. Edwards has pledged to do just that - he has committed to performing a thorough examination of the Pentagon budget and eliminate antiquated or ineffective weapons systems.

It is exciting to have a viable presidential candidate pledge to cut military waste. This is somewhat unprecedented (at least my short lifetime), and an important difference between John Edwards and all the other top-tier Dem candidates.

Edwards' plan for a rational approach to defence policy goes beyond pulling out of Iraq (and honestly, there's not that much difference between him and Richardson here anyway). Edwards rejects the GWOT frame. He has pledged to cut military spending. Edwards is our best shot at truely challenging the Pentagon consensus.

Check out Future Roots for organic rock'n'roll goodness from Oregon...


[ Parent ]
It's not clear to me (4.00 / 1)
what the difference is between the Edwards plan, as stated in this post, and the Richardson plan,  which I believe is 'withdraw all troops from Iraq to Kuwait and regional bases,  then deploy to wherever they're needed to fight threats, while sending as many as possible home.'


The U.S. Embassy in Iraq (0.00 / 0)
Edwards acknowledges that we'll continue to maintain an embassy in a city, Baghdad, that will continue to be a war zone, and that will require combat troops to defend it.

I don't know whether Richardson ignores the problem, or says we shouldn't maintain an embassy in Baghdad, or says Baghdad will be a peaceful city by 2013, or what.

But whatever Richardson's angle or non-angle on it is, that's the difference.

And ACitizen isn't the only one who's been reminded of the internecine disputes of the 1960s left by the excessive harping over this difference here.


[ Parent ]
I believe the CAP (0.00 / 0)
plan--'Strategic Reset?'--claims there's no need for a Baghdad based embassy, instead of regional consulates or some such. FWIW.

[ Parent ]
Hollering down a well... (0.00 / 0)
I know I'm just a voice in the wilderness, but instead of continuously devoting attention to tweedle dee and tweedledum and tweedledum2 why don't we spend some profitable time talking about what we might to do help Kucinich who is actually doing something meaningful.

Might throw a wrench in the (0.00 / 0)
neo-con works, and mainstream Democrats don't want to go that far.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I disagree - Edwards stands apart from Tweedle Dum/Tweedle Dee (0.00 / 0)
Many of my neighbors are Dennis K. fans (he's pretty big in the Willamatte Valley). I understand DK's appeal. However, John Edwards truly represents an challenge to the Pentagon CW, and the Washington DC consensus that perpetuates the war industry.

I can't say this enough. Edwards has pledged to cut military spending. That's a big deal, and a big no-no in Washington. And John Edwards has a real shot at being elected President.

Check out Future Roots for organic rock'n'roll goodness from Oregon...


[ Parent ]
neo-con works, and mainstream Democrats don't want to go that far... (0.00 / 0)
And neither does openleft, huffingtonpost, nytimes, dailykos....

[ Parent ]
Two words folks (0.00 / 0)
AL GORE

two more words (0.00 / 0)
NOT RUNNING

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
These are Campaign "Distinctions" (0.00 / 0)
That won't amount to a hill 'o beans once any of these "top - tier" candidates occupies the White House.  They are designed by the candidates to provide the appearance of actually debating an issue, while they are not even addressing the issues that underlie it. 

These are surface issues - like running your fingers through the icing on a cake to make different designs.  Underneath that sweet icing of "rapid response teams" and "no residual forces" - the cake is still rotten because none of the Democratic "front runners" is willing to step up and pledge a complete and unequivocal reversal the Bush Doctrine of Pre-emptive Warfare, or promise to dial back the excesses of the Cheney Plan to more firmly establish a unitary executive.  A "kinder, gentler" imperial hand.

They have all - de facto - accepted the neo-con junta's long-term goal of lang-term (permanent) US military occupation of, at least, the US military bases and the world's largest embassy complex.  These are NOT the actions of a opposition party - these are the latest moves in the Good Fascist/Bad Fascist theater.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Not what I hear (0.00 / 0)
none of the Democratic "front runners" is willing to step up and pledge a complete and unequivocal reversal the Bush Doctrine of Pre-emptive Warfare, or promise to dial back the excesses of the Cheney Plan to more firmly establish a unitary executive.

Everything I've read and heard from Obama and Edwards suggests your assertion is utterly false. They have both expressed clear opposition to the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive warfare.

Karl in Drexel Hill, PA


[ Parent ]
Got an example? (0.00 / 0)
"Everything I've read and heard from Obama and Edwards suggests your assertion is utterly false. They have both expressed clear opposition to the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive warfare."

Because that's not what I'm hearing.....


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
From campaign website (0.00 / 0)
Edwards repudiates Bush Doctrine here:
Ensure that Our Military Policy Is Planned and Executed to Fulfill Essential National Security Missions, Not Some Ideological Fancy: The Bush administration has isolated America by elevating the right of preemption to a doctrine of ?preventive war.? As president, Edwards will only use offensive force after all other options including diplomacy have been exhausted, and after we have made efforts to bring as many countries as possible to our side. Edwards believes military force is justified to protect our vital national interests; to respond to acts of aggression by other nations and non-state actors; to protect treaty allies and alliance commitments; to prevent terrorists from acquiring nuclear weapons; and to prevent or stop genocide.

The Obama website isn't quite so, um, clear. I'm still looking for the money quote that directly addresses the issue. So far the quotes I have merely imply his disagreement with the Bush policy. I'm looking for the direct statement.

Karl in Drexel Hill, PA


[ Parent ]
Obama is incoherent (0.00 / 0)
Well, I'm not spending any more time trying to decipher Mr. Obama's foreign policy. What I could gather is:

- In Audacity of Hope, Sen. Obama says he'd use military force in self-defense, which can include preemption if there's imminent threat of attack. And he defines imminent pretty clearly. It's even a pretty standard definition that I think most non-loon humans would buy.

- His statement on hitting Pakistan locations holding bin Laden and ilk is likewise pretty clear and limited.

- On Iran, he's all over the place.

- On terrorism of the non-9/11 retailiation type, he's all over the place.

So I give up trying to quote him. His Audacity of Hope stuff is pretty good and makes a reasonable basis to believe he really doesn't want to go bombing folks just because he can.

But who knows - his Iran stance is pretty much the opposite of that, as best as I can sort out.

Karl in Drexel Hill, PA


[ Parent ]
I admit, Edwards is close (0.00 / 0)
but I'd really like to hear the whole issue put within the context of how he, or any other democratic Presidential candidate, would help the US Congress to more fully utilize their consitutional war-making powers.

To put a finer point on it - Edwards admits that he was wrong to let Bush trick him on the AUMF (he uses different words, of course).  What concrete plan, or policy, will he offer to assure the US citizenry that some other Congress, at some point, won't be so easily "fooled" by an over-powerful executive?

The comments you cite are not comprehensive enough - although much moreso than any other "top-tier" competitor.

Thank you for your efforts.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Ironically (0.00 / 0)
You are just reaffirming Hillary's position-that there are no real differences between the Democrats in Iraq.  Like so much of what HRC says, this is demonstrably false.

[ Parent ]
If the troops are fighting inside Iraq, they are "based" in Iraq (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

You say: "I think he is correct to assert that there is a big difference as to where the troops are based."

If terrorism "post-withdrawal" is low, then there may not be a need for U.S. troops to even worry about it. If it is very high, you have to decide whether you plan to fight them or not. Personally, I question the premise that we will continue fighting terrorists within Iraq because I don't think terrorism within Iraq will ever end in our lifetime, if Iraq stays in its current state. However, if you do decide to fight terrorism in Iraq because the levels of terrorism are high, it makes no difference whether the troops are inside or outside Iraq. If the levels of terrorism are high, the troops will be de facto inside Iraq almost all the time.  It makes no sense for troops to fly in for a day, fly out the next day, fly back in the day after to fight the next attack, fly back out. Does anyone seriously think this is anything more than pandering?


Yes. (0.00 / 0)
There's a difference between an invasion and an occupation.

[ Parent ]
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