OK, It Is Still A Close Campaign

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 01:37


I am loathe to ever admit I am wrong about the horserace aspect of my election analysis. Wrong about anything else in my life, such as career choices, lifestyle choices, and relationship choices? Sure, I'll admit that, I've made mistakes in those areas, but not about my horserace analysis of elections. I was wildly wrong about the 2004 primaries, but only wrong about the 2004 elections because I banked on the incumbent rule, which unexpectedly (at least, somewhat unexpectedly) has collapsed in recent years. However, over 300 people personally told me in late 2004 / early 2005 that I had given them false hope for a Kerry win in 2004. And so, imagining the hundreds of thousands who didn't have a chance to tell me that in person (in late 2004, MyDD was the second largest progressive blog in the county, and might have temporarily moved to #1 on Election Day 2004), I resolved to never be wrong about election predictions again, no matter who I pissed off. And so, after spending three years tweaking my methodology, I finally struck gold in 2006-2007. I called the CT-Sen Lamont-Lieberman election within 1%, I surpassed any professional forecaster in terms of accuracy in my 2006 federal elections, and even recently called the exact 51%-45% finish in the MA-05 special election (all of which were to the consternation of many at the time for not being pro-Democratic / progressive enough). I thought I was invincible in terms of forecasting elections, and so I boldly proclaimed that Barack Obama had already lost the 2008 presidential primaries because I believed he had lost the primarily non-Christian, progressive creative class vote that had served as his base early in the campaign.

I didn't think it was possible for Obama to win without that vote, and I still don't think it is possible for him to win without that vote. However, at the time I thought he had basically lost that vote with a series of events that culminated, but did not start, with the gay-bashing McClurkin event in South Carolina. Now, it seems to me that maybe he just pissed them off with that event, but he didn't lose them for good. At this point, with the time to make a final decision looming, and faced with a primary election that, no matter the inaccuracy of the media narrative, is still primarily a choice between Clinton and Obama, the progressive creative class has decided that it still prefers Obama to Clinton no matter what Obama may or may not have done wrong so far. This is the vote that Obama absolutely needs in order to win either Iowa or New Hampshire, and it seems as though he is keeping enough of that vote in order to stay competitive in both states.

We know that if Obama wins Iowa and New Hampshire, he takes the nomination. Already, it has been documented that Obama has probably moved close enough in New Hampshire to take the state if he wins Iowa. Now, only seven weeks out, it is clear that he is close enough in Iowa to win the state should the current trend continue:

Post-debate Iowa three-poll average
Clinton: 27.3%
Obama: 24.7%
Edwards: 21.3%
Richardson: 9.3%
Biden: 4.0%
Dodd: 1.0%
Kucinich: 0.7%
Unsure / Other: 13.7%

Without any question, 2.67% is close enough for Iowa to be considered a statistical tie. Even though Clinton remains the favorite, Obama could quit easily win the state if the election were held tomorrow, much less if it were held in 50 days. In any analysis, 2.67% in a state with as strange a system as Iowa is virtually meaningless. And yes, Edwards clearly isn't done yet, and Richardson is quite finished, either. However, only Obama remains close enough in New Hampshire to be almost certain of a victory there following a win in Iowa, and only Obama is close enough nationally to be pretty much guaranteed of sweeping to the nomination should he defeat Clinton is both Iowa and New Hampshire. Obama is Clinton's main opponent three ways from Thursday, January 3rd

Now, I am never going to endorse either Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton in these primaries. There is no way I could spend so much time working on the residual force issue, which basically puts me at odds with both candidates, and end up endorsing one of them. If I were to endorse someone who overtly favored residual forces at this point, it would invalidate most of the work I have done in the primaries so far, and I would deservingly become an object of mockery. I also have serious problems with what I perceive to be Obama's insider elitism. However, I can't ignore that one of he two leading candidates for the Democratic nomination is potentially the best identity vessel for my ideal progressive coalition to come around in the history of American politics, bar none. I mean, even though I am a white guy who grew up in the suburbs of Syracuse, New York, I can say without a hint of irony or doubt that Barack Obama is easily the candidate with whom I can most clearly identify. It isn't even close. I am a highly educated dude with a serious academic background who moved to one of the forgotten areas of a major city and became something a community organizer. Even after I left Chicago following Obama's 2004 victory, I saw the potential Obama coalition come together before my eyes as my 50-50 white-black neighborhood that threw out the local machine, was the first to endorse the new African-American mayor of Philly back when he was in fifth place, and as a white guy from the suburbs like myself became the partisan representative for one of the poorest, most Democratic, and most diverse areas on the entire eastern seaboard. I haven't just seen the Obama / long-term progressive coalition of largely creative class non-Christians and largely working class non-whites come together, I have lived it.  It is totally doable. The local Philly machine even jokes about what is happening out here, saying that the media waits to see what the 27th ward does before it endorses (aka, the local white liberal establishment waits to hear what its neighborhood affiliates "on the street" say before doing anything). It can be done, and I can't deny a deep desire on my part to eventually see it done. Even before I made the identity politics synthesis back in April 2005, I have been writing about my hopes for this for four years. And I know that other people must be thinking about this too, because you don't get a non-flame war diary with 255 comments in November of 2003 without striking a real nerve.

There is a desperate, progressive desire to see the two most left-wing demographic groups in the entire country, working class non-whites and creative class non-Christians, to from a governing coalition in America. Despite their extreme diversity, their massive growth rate gives them the potential to do just that. Such potential is epitomized, at least identity-wise, in Barack Obama. Now that he is pulling closer in both Iowa and New Hampshire, I have to believe that, despite his repeated fuck-ups, the members of his potential coalition have decided that his fuck-ups are less important than the decision at hand. Given his seeming unwillingness to embrace this coalition, I don't know if that is the right decision to make. Also, I could be quite wrong about what is happening in the early states, or at least about why it is happening. However, after living in pursuit of this dream for so long, I have to think that is what is happening on the ground. Even if Obama wins, I worry it could all horribly backfire and self-destruct if the coalition isn't ready to be embraced by the person leading it, and as I said there is no way I am going to endorse him before Iowa, but I have to admit it is still something I will be watching closely over the next fifty days. It is the promise of a coalition that means a helluva lot to me, and I can't ignore that forever no matter how bad it may make past predictions of mine look.
Chris Bowers :: OK, It Is Still A Close Campaign

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We do have the advantage in that... (0.00 / 0)
it is a far different situation then 2004, it's wide open on both sides.

I'm pretty much with you on Obama, and actually i'm one of those people that get irritated at him a lot for running a GE strategy in a primary, and basically flipping the bird to the base, when all we want is blood (or at least some come uppance to the bullies).

If he can pull it off it'll be the sea change of politics that his ardent supporters have promised for so long. Forget all of the Reagan revisionist history, even if he does a lot of things wrong in his presidency, all will be forgiven for bringing us out of the political dark ages.

I'm starting to think that's possible again, but when it comes down to it, it really has to do with, as you say, embracing those constituencies and building off of that. Not starting as if you were the President and working backwards.

Me, i'm still torn...
Although, "luckilly" the choices will be "weeded down" by the time California votes anyway.

-C.


be careful (0.00 / 0)
To govern you have to embrace your coalition.

[ Parent ]
I've heard this before (4.00 / 4)
He has embraced them but not tightly enough for your taste and style.  Your argument is the same one that the right uses with their coalition.  When both sides do what you suggest- you almost always get stalemate and unproductive partisanship (and the occasional wars which are also typically triggered by your advice).  And another cycle of no real health care, no real environmental progress and no immigration reform (to name a few).

What bugs you about Obama is that he is of the coalitions that you speak of but not constrained by them.  To you, this is a weakness but to many it is the political rationale for his socially historic candidacy.


[ Parent ]
wait a minute (4.00 / 2)
Although I struggle with the semantics of a non-christian and non-white coalition (maybe because I am a white christian), I think your comment ignores the fact that Obama and his wife and children are black. 

You can't be suggesting that Obama as president will not represent, embrace and govern on behalf of non-whites?

I believe it will be quite the opposite, that for the first time in history we will have a president that understands the hardships and realities of being a person of color in america, and will govern accordingly.

It will be quite different when policies actually empower people of color, rather than the policies we have now, that are often what 'well intentioned white people' think people of color need/want.


[ Parent ]
true. (0.00 / 0)
But I am still undecided when it comes down to it, again... not that it matters since there will probably be a Clinton and non-Clinton candidate by the time I vote anyway. (if we're lucky!)

-C.


[ Parent ]
I agree, except for 2004 (4.00 / 1)
You didn't get my hopes up and I spend damn near as much time as anyone reading MyDD that cycle. Maybe it was having a front-row seat to the recall, but I just figured in the end Dems would blow it.

But Jerome did get my hopes up on election day, I'll never forget immediately pulling out a pen and pad to write down the numbers from a site I knew wouldn't be around the next time I hit refresh.

But my gut says Obama will blow it sooner or later, either before the primaries or in the general or in the west wing. I think Axelrod and I think Chicago machine and Duckworth and just don't see Obama being a movement candidate.


Digby posted an Obama dkos diary-read it (4.00 / 2)
http://digbysblog.bl...

Read it and tell me if your skin doesn't begin to crawl as a progressive Democrat. So much of the let's work together, after all Republicans can be right and Democrats are wrong to hold on too tightly to liberal nostrums could have come from the pen of Al From himself.  There is a bunch of Sistah Souljah pronouncements that are terrifying to anyone who's been trying to fight against this kind of capitulation in the Democratic party. These are the words of any DLC style Democrat.  Hillary is a hell of lot more progressive by temperment than this let's cut the difference guy. He doesn't seem to get in his gut at all that the object of the Republicans "is to destroy you," his object "is to spare them---to treat them according to his own fancied dignity"

Okay I wasn't thrilled by his convention speech. I didn't think it was a grand assertion of liberal values....it was a nice speech about how we should all get along. In this era that is like crying into a howling wind.

I don't want to change the tone in politics...I just want better policies and outcomes for the American people. Changing thre tone is supposed to get you a better outcome, not be an end in itself. But if you get better policies, jsut as Bill Kristol feared in 1993 the result will be a better tone that the Democraic party will benefit from

Okay I don't want to be nice to Republicans.  I just want to cream them.  He doesn't.

This is a man who certainly hasn't read Hazlitt from the early 19th century on the ruthlessness of consevatives and the pusillamity of liberals. 

My post from Digby.  The quotes in it are form Obama's dkos post.

""How can we ask Republican senators to resist pressure from their right wing and vote against flawed appointees like John Bolton, if we engage in similar rhetoric against Democrats who dissent from our own party line?"

What a fool.  This man scares me as the nominee. The Republicans will wipe the floor with him.

The Republicans will not mimic our good behavior....they will exploit it.

This man has not read Hazlitt at all.  " While they give no quarter, you stand upon mere ceremony. While they are cutting your throat, or putting the gag in your mouth, you talk of nothing but liberality, freedom of inquiry, and douce humanité. Their object is to destroy you, your object is to spare them---to treat them according to your own fancied dignity. They have sense and spirit enough to take all advantages that will further their cause: you have pedantry and pusillanimity enough to undertake the defence of yours, in order to defeat it."

Yes indeed...in order to defeat it. This is a recipe for defeat.

More form Obama

"A pro-choice Democrat doesn't become anti-choice because he or she isn't absolutely convinced that a twelve-year-old girl should be able to get an operation without a parent being notified. A pro-civil rights Democrat doesn't become complicit in an anti-civil rights agenda because he or she questions the efficacy of certain affirmative action programs. And a pro-union Democrat doesn't become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them."

The passage above reminds me of how Joe Klein talked in the 90's and even  until the recent present that the way to prove your bona fides as a Democrat is to dis your base.  I disagree wholeheartedly with every word that Obama wrote above. 

I don't see why his progressive supporters don't see that these are words and ideas that the DLC has wholeheartedly promulgated.  What I want to know is who's really the one stuck in the past? And how is this "understanding" he's talking about any different than the 90's concept of triangulation?."

And PS his health care plan is not good enough and certainly a lot less progressive in its underpinnings than hers. The same goes for her energy plan and if you compare. On domestic issues he falls way behind her in his progressivism. 

And I will say, as is too typical of men...indeed it was the same in the Vietnam era,  that men are too fixated on war and foreign policy to the neglect of the domestic arena.
And you are letting this be more of a guideline than his stance....tempermentally or policy wise on the home front.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


defensiveness (0.00 / 0)
You have great points, but I would encourage you to become less defensive about Clinton.  She really isn't that great, even though I know it would be a huge deal to have a woman President.

[ Parent ]
Matt , I have never said this before (4.00 / 1)
but if he's the nominee I think I'm gonna save my money.  It would be just pissing it away.  As well as my time.

I'd work for Senate candidates and/or House ones

He's never had to run a real tough race.  Never.

Not in the State Senate nor running for the Ill. Senate seat.  He ran against Alan Keyes for heavens sake!!!
The one tough race was against Bobby Rush for the Congressional seat and he lost.

Even in this presidential race there have been no meaningful, sustained assaults on him.  Certainly not by the other candidates.  The Republicans have ignored him....the press has treated him pretty kindly.  But if he's the nominee, the Republican will go after his skin, his intellect, his elitism, his name, his wife henpecking him, his equivocating answers as he tries to get us all to get along, the miscegnation of it all, his religion, his church....god I'm not evil or clever enough to think up all the lies and distortions they'll throw at him.  And the Russerts and the Matthews will gleefullly aid and abet the narrative.  Then the Washington Post, the Poltico, and Pat Healy and Adam Nagourney of the NY Times will start talking about how badly he''s handling his campaign and what does this mean for how he'd run the country.

These will all be new attacks....new to the media...new to the country....and worst of all new to him.  He's used to adulation and given his temperment, he's going to be unable, unwilling and baffled as to how to respond.  Subtlety, which he has in some abundance, will not be much of a weapon agianst the R's or their 527's with coffers swelling, smelling blood .... or a vicious, sneering racist bazooka like Rudy Giuliani.

As to Hillary. I have know her for 15 years, so i trust her instincts She is more of a progressive than her husband ever was, she's more partisan than he ever was, she's tougher than he is.  And if she had her druthers and she got a more Democratic, more progressive Congress, I think we might all be pleasantly surprised as to what she would like to get done. 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
ok (0.00 / 0)
Don't support Obama in the general, that's fine.  Work on House and Senate races.  But you have to respect people who don't respect Clinton, since she has a record of problematic votes and actions.

[ Parent ]
I can understand when people disagree with her on policy (4.00 / 1)
or past votes. You do that, but I get very upset when people on our side attack her based on media generated memes like she's cold, she's dishonest and a underlying anti-feminist imagery that they are often not even aware of. 

Too many use Tim Russert talking points to keep implying that she should never be trusted.  That she is inherently not a progressive and will always stab us in the back.  I do trust her more.  I do think she is more progressive.  But she is pragmatic. She will aim for more progressive lelgislation is she's got that kind of Congress, but will not aim so high if she doesn't. Look at her health care plan...it has much more ambition than others...that was a combo of the zeitgeist and us pushing the envelope and her own inner desires to do the best she can get.

I think she can get by the media/Republican firing squad.  I don't Obama can. 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Tough race (4.00 / 2)
Obama's tough race was his 2004 Senate primary.  It was a crowded field of better known and better funded candidates and he fought his way to the nomination.  The general was a cake walk for him.

You don't like Obama for the exact reason that I support him.  I think we need someone who has the inclination and ability to unite the country.  Someone whom most of the country will give a chance to prove themselves as president.

I think that those divisive politics you are asking for were used well by Gingrich and Rove, and will continue to weaken America.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
Damn.... (4.00 / 1)
You've absolutely nailed it.

Obama is not the person Chris is talking about. Not at least if you take him at his word.

Obama is not a progressive by any stretch of the imagination.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
don't bet on it (4.00 / 1)
Now that he is pulling closer in both Iowa and New Hampshire, I have to believe that, despite his repeated fuck-ups, the members of his potential coalition have decided that his fuck-ups are less important than the decision at hand.

A much simpler explanation is that the media has decided it's time to attack Clinton.


I don't think so (0.00 / 0)
I think it is the plants and so on.  The media attacked Obama repeatedly through this election and nothing stuck till he made a mistake.

I don't think Obama will regain that base.  If he wins I suspect it will be because his base has shifted to be more conservative.


[ Parent ]
Hillary's wounds (4.00 / 2)
are completely self created.

Nobody made the mistake in the debate but her.

Nobody forced her to plan the questioners in the crowds in Iowa but her.


[ Parent ]
You "know" a lot of things... (0.00 / 0)
We know that if Obama wins Iowa and New Hampshire, he takes the nomination.

That's an interesting analysis, one that hinges on Hillary's support being extremely soft and primary voters being mainly interested in backing a winner. And that analysis was more consistent with the '04 dynamic, where none of the candidates had a particular ID advantage.

Would early losses blow out her entire national lead to the point where Obama could overtake her? I'm still betting no. She's one of the best-known politicians in America, one of the most popular in her party, and Obama is still essentially a charismatic cipher.

That said, if Hillary keeps shooting herself in the foot (a phrase I never thought I'd have to write), that national lead might disappear of its own accord. But I think it's likelier to stabilize at this point.


Less about soft supporters than attention cycles (4.00 / 3)
The major reality that all political junkies need to keep in mind - and I think Chris does a great job of recognizing this in the above post - is that, at this point in the process, the mass of primary voters aren't paying much attention at all.  I'll be seeing my family next week for Thanksgiving, all of them left-wing partisans.  I can almost guarantee that not a single one will have heard of McLurkin.

It isn't that Hillary's die-hard supporters must be so soft that they'd give up on her to back a winner.  It's that the overwhelming majority of voters haven't formed strong preferences in this election, and won't until the post-Iowa media frenzy kicks off.

Bottom line is that low-information voters report softer preferences, and in the early stages of any presidential primary, that leads to a high noise-to-signal ratio in poll results.


[ Parent ]
Great points, debkoop! (4.00 / 1)
Obama shows me nothing.  I don't believe he is a progressive.  I think he is a "Christian".  I've had enough of "Christians" in high office.  I want them to be focused on the real world and its real problems, not on the Pauline Epistles.  I'm supporting Edwards at present, but if I have to choose between Clinton and Obama, I choose Clinton.

I think Chris is giving Obama extra points because he's "Black".  Not too long ago, people were asking if he was "Black enough".  Stupid question, right?  But Barack has obviously never been radicalized.  How does a Black person not become radicalized?  It almost seems there's something lacking in him that he would not be radicalized.  I have only ever known one Black person who was never radicalized.  He was career military.  He married a white woman.  He is a Republican, and he still claims Colin Powell as his mentor. I call this person my friend, but I don't trust his political judgement at all. Maybe this person is distorting my view of Obama.  I sure hope so.


Race?! (4.00 / 1)
I don't think race has anything to do with it.  I don't think I know anyone who gives Obama points because he is black.  People give Obama points for a of reasons, often despite his race.

He might not appeal to you, and that is fine, but he does appeal to a lot of people.  I find it offensive that you saw that Chris is applying affirmative action to his analysis of the race.  The unspoken implication that most Obama supporters would not support him if it weren't for his race is even more insulting and offensive.

From what you said it seems that your view of Obama is largely shaped by his race and your comparison of him to one other black man.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
great article (4.00 / 1)
Obama on verge of breakthrough by carving path along racial divide

http://www.sfgate.co...


[ Parent ]
Not really. (0.00 / 0)
A radical is someone who wants to fight about it.  Obama doesn't want to fight about any of it.  He wants to reason with the Repigs, treating them as if they're rational.  I don't see them as being rational, and in my many, many attempts to reason with them, I have seen zero progress from any of them.  First off, they don't use rational criteria.  It is more important to them that Arab chauvinists are impossible to coexist with than that Arab chavinists are almost entirely absent in this country, because they are chewed up and spit out almost immediately. They just keep reverting to their memes.

Throughout the Bush years, the Repigs have used every dirty trick they could think of to get their way.  They have demonized liberals and liberal ideas at every turn.  They have changed the rules of congressional procedure to benefit themselves.  They have smeared, lied, and attempted to keep what they were doing secret.  I don't want to reason with them.  I want to kick the hell out of them.  I want them to be unable to hold their heads up in public.  I see accommodation of Conservatives as one of the very last things we should do if we once get the upper hand.  Obama keeps going on about how we should reach across the aisle.  The only good reason I can see to reach across the aisle is to gouge their eyes. 


[ Parent ]
WTF? (0.00 / 0)
As a person of color, I'm having trouble understanding the point you're trying to make here. You're saying that minorities have to be "radicalized" i.e., want to work outside the normal political process or be angry at the system or there is something "lacking" in them? Your friend married a white woman - why on earth would this say anything would his political preferences?

[ Parent ]
That's right. (0.00 / 0)
If you live in a system that periodically kicks you in the face because of your race, and you don't want to radically overhaul that system, there is something wrong with you.  The system periodically kicks almost all of us in the face, like when the tax rates are cut on the multimillionaires, but spending by the government triples, so those who were not benefited by the tax cuts have to bear the consequences of accelerating inflation as a result. Oh, but right.  There is no inflation.  It's just that everything costs more, but your paycheck somehow isn't keeping up.

But it's easier for whites to avoid the conclusion that the deck is stacked against them, because they aren't constantly being reminded of it by seeing those who are most like them singled out as targets.  It's easier for whites to lie to themselves.  I think it's pretty hard for people of color to lie to themselves that we live in a just and equitable society.  If they do, they get slapped down pretty fast.  So yeah, I think people of color who have not been radicalized probably do have something lacking in them.


[ Parent ]
Sure (0.00 / 0)
I guess I can buy that. However, you might want to be more careful about assigning political or ideological importance to things like the skin color of someone's partner. I really don't see the connection there.

[ Parent ]
You've proven one thing with this comment... (0.00 / 0)
that you don't know a single thing about Obama.

So, how about you go to his website and read his policy proposals and read about his past accomplishments in the State Senate and as an organizer. Then you can come back and withdraw your assertion that he's not progressive.

He's THE most progressive candidate we have. Period. He has NEVER changed his position on any issue to become "more" progressive - unlike Kucinich, Hillary, and Edwards.


[ Parent ]
why Hillary? (0.00 / 0)
Sorry if this has already been posted/commented upon, but why do people support Hillary?  What has she done or said that makes people think she would do more to help their lives than, say, Edwards?  I don't get it. 

he will be most progressive president in my lifetime (0.00 / 0)
and that's exciting shit. Something is in the air and its growing. 

The Gore factor (4.00 / 1)
Great post, Chris! I still have fond memories of West Philly--the Greenline Cafe, Clark Park, walking along Pine and Osage and Locust, going door-to-door for MoveOn in 2004, eating slices of pizza in the Colonial,  being a hermit finishing my dissertation, and retiring at night to some good old-fashioned reality TV. Actually, it was politics that lured me out of that academic and media-induced stupor, and brought me in touch with my neighbors, the people, I think, to whom you are referring.

I'm just wondering: could it also have something to do with the fact that Gore is finally for sure out of the running. I know there were a lot of people, including myself, who were holding out hope that he would jump into the race and be the elder statesman, the voice of reason, good judgment, and real experience, the visionary that has spoken out and been right about so many issues. Well, that didn't happen, so maybe some of those people who were holding out are starting to make choices. And I don't believe for a minute that many of those people who were holding out, were considering Hillary all along. They were holding out because they didn't buy her inevitability argument or that she was really the most experienced one out there. They were holding out because, though they may have liked Edwards or Obama or one of the others, still, they didn't see any of them boldly making the charge, or if they were making it, they weren't doing it in a way that forced the media to pay attention.

So to make a long story short, crystallized into a single, simple sentence:  How do you think the Gore factor--the fact that he is finally out, for real--is affecting the present situation in terms of Hillary, Obama, and Edwards? Well, maybe not so simple. 


Honestly (4.00 / 1)
Obama is anything but a Elitist Insider.  He came from a reformist State Legislative Background, and he has bucked conventional DC insider wisdom over and over.  He doesn't take PAC or lobbyist money.

Anyhow, bravo for this post.  I think it was informative and interesting.  Not just "I hate Obama" Stoller posts.


just remember (4.00 / 2)
Why did Obama move to Chicago after college to do community organizing, a place he had never been before?

Because Harold Washington had just become mayor, and he wanted to be in a city where transformative reform and organizing was happening.


[ Parent ]
I didn't say he was (4.00 / 1)
I said that's what they will attack him for.  Now the Russert/Matthews media refer to him as the college professor type.  That gets turned into the distant, ungrounded Harvard Law School grad. who lived all over the world (that is isn't a real American)  and doesn't understand real people's lives.

The attacks don't have to be true....they just need to appear to be viable and fit a narrative that the media is used to in terms of trashing Democrats and propping up Republicans.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Hard to predict (0.00 / 0)
True, Obama is relatively inexperienced and unknown but I'm not convinced it plays out as a net minus for him in the general vs. Clinton as the nominee. One thing is for sure - if Clinton is the nominee, there will be a mass mobilization of right-wingers against her with a level of hatred rivaling that of Bush on the left. She is so disliked - by Republicans on a policy level, and by them and many others on a personal level - that I worry we will squander the tide of goodwill towards Dems nationally if she is the nominee. Yes, Obama is inexperienced in some ways but he has room to grow and at this point I think we need an inspirational leader to push us forward, not a safe choice that's more of the same.

[ Parent ]
My point is the animus that they feel to her (4.00 / 1)
Will be the exact same degree of animus they will generate toward whoever will be the Dem nominee. They hate her and Bill because they threaten them.  any Dem nominee threatens them.  The degree of polarization that the right built around her, the right created toward John Kerry in 2004.  The polarization numbers will be the same.  that was the point of my comment.  They are enormously creative in ginning up attack scenarios and fake character flaws that the media buys into. 

My point was that she can handle it because she has before and she had the temperment for that kind of media confrontation.  I don't think that he can.  The smooth ride he's had so far means he will be caught back on his heels from their roundhouse blows.

People don't admire weakness. They admire strength.  If you can't be for yourself aggressively, then the elelctorate feels how can you be for them?

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Would not be the same (0.00 / 0)
Spend some time around Repubs and right-leaning independents and you would realize they absolutely hate Clinton, whereas I have heard many say they would consider backing Obama, despite the fact that the two are relatively similar on the issues. Yes, Repubs would throw anything they've got at whoever the nominee is but personality and likability (which Kerry didn't have, and which I worry Clinton lacks) matter. Don't get me wrong, I think any of the top three Dems would be strong in many ways, but I do worry that with Clinton we get the worst of both worlds, governing from the center yet inspiring more partisan hatred than anyone else.

[ Parent ]
The early polls for john kerry showed (0.00 / 0)
more favorables.  After  the R's media assault they became unfavorable.  The base will hate us no matter what, or who or how.  One should be under no illusion that if Obama is the nominee that by Sept you will find the electorate as polarized around him as around her.

She is no more or less likable than Obama.  She is actually a warm human being. The media narrative turns every Democratic nominee into a basket case who is nothing but a walking character flaw.

She is personally likable. And I said it upthread.  i think the DLC Dem in tihs race is Obama.  The difference is their ability to parry. 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Again, I have to agree with DebCoop. (0.00 / 0)
Your points are very cogent and insightful.  The Repigs will rip up any Dem with attacks which are calculated but not reasonable. They don't even believe in many of these attacks themselves.  They're just a line of bullshit to spew in the intervals of our attempts at reasoned discourse.  Hillary is many things, but one thing she definitely is is tough.  We need tough.  Obama believes in turning the other cheek.  Do that with Repigs, and you soon run out of cheeks.

[ Parent ]
You don't have to take my word (0.00 / 0)
Check out any poll - polling his consistently shown that Clinton's negatives are significantly higher any the other candidates. She occupies a special place in hell for Repubs. I don't disagree with your contention that Clinton is tougher and more seasoned than Obama, and that's a plus for her. I'm just saying that she has significant problems, largely related to image and personality, that are unique to her. Since she is still by far the likely candidate, better to attack the problem than reflectively deny it exists.

[ Parent ]
Well, I knew you were wrong. (0.00 / 0)
LOL - does that sound bitchy? I don't mean for it to sound that way - but seriously...I think you were missing important information as you were analyzing. 

Considering the fuck ups -

Mistakes were clearly made regarding the McClurkin event - but you have to take into consideration that while that was a mistake, in the end, Obama still has the most progressive policies for the LGBT community of all the viable candidates. Sure, Kucinich is talking gay marriage, but we all know he's not going to win.

Obama is proposing federal Civil Unions with the same rights as marriage. I haven't seen anything close to that from any other viable candidate. Also, Obama has a consistently good record on LGBT issues. The other viable candidates? Not so much.

So yeah, it was a fuck up, and I'm sure he lost some votes over it, but where are those votes going to go? To Hillary?? Who is worse on LGBT issues than Obama is? And who will never act on it once elected? Doubtful.

I understand that you can't endorse either front-runner, but in the end I think Obama will likely win it. As I've said to you before, he's the only person who can beat Hillary and who has the money and ability to go up against Republicans and beat them too. He's also the candidate of change vs. Hillary as the candidate of the status quo (return to the "prosperity" of the 90s)...and people overwhelmingly want change. His message resonates - and in the end, what wins is the message.


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