More On Obama And New Progressive Media

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 17:58


I'd like to offer some clarification on my earlier Obama post, given the comments it seems to have created.

More in the extended entry.
Chris Bowers :: More On Obama And New Progressive Media
In the post, I was trying to make two points. First, I see a pattern from the Obama campaign where, instead of reaching out to new and progressive media figures, it attacks those figures when they step out of line. The opposite seems to be the case in the Obama campaign's dealings with establishment media figures, to whom it warmly reaches out.

The second point is that the above pattern is particularly odd and confusing given that Obama has excellent media reform policies, probably the best in the field, and that he seems to have the most supporters among those who consume and participate in new progressive media.

The end result is a mixed, contradictory, and even schizophrenic relationship of the Obama campaign with new progressive media. I am not sure what to make of this relationship, since Obama is simultaneously the best and worst on many of the ways a campaign can relate to new progressive media.

This isn't about kissing blogosphere ass, Joe Anthony, the tone that Obama takes on the campaign, the specifics of the Krugman fight, the use of left-wing strawmen, how to change Republican behavior in Congress, or that Obama doesn't have a right to disagree with progressives. Or at least, isn't about the specifics of any of those cases, but instead about the broad and contradictory pattern to which they point. This is about trying to make sense of a strange and contradictory relationship that contains so many good things and so many bad things all at the same time.

If I cared about the specifics of the Krugman attack, I would have written about it when it first came up, rather than after waiting three days. I didn't write about it at first, because it only became really interesting to me when I thought it fit into a larger pattern. The notion that bloggers are upset because their asses aren't being kissed or because someone is disagreeing with them is nonsense. There are few people in America who are more regularly criticized in public than bloggers. We are used to that sort of thing, even coming from other Democrats. The problem arises when a candidate attacks specific members of new and progressive media from the right, and does not do the same to establishment media figures, since it presents a worrying pattern. The problem gets worse when that same candidate also happens to be the person who seems to have the best chance of enacting our desired new, progressive media policies into actual legislation. To top it off, that candidate seems to have the most support among the members of the new progressive media community. What is a new progressive media figure to do in that circumstance? It isn't an easy question to answer. I feel personally stumped.

With only 24 days until Iowa, I care more about what to do when faced with the broader question posed by this schizophrenia than with the specifics of any of the cases that form the larger pattern I identified.  Nearly a year into what has become a very close campaign, it seems very clear to me that Barack Obama presents new progressive media with both tremendous potential upsides and downsides. I don't want to see either side of the equation dismissed. What I want to figure out is if one matters more than the other, because the time to make a decision is very near.

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Re: More On Obama And New Progressive Media (4.00 / 3)
"This isn't...that Obama doesn't have a right to disagree with progressives."

A handful of bloggers do not represent "Progressives".  Barack Obama is a progressive, however you define the term.  So it isn't that he "disagrees with progressives", it's that he disagrees with you. 

And Obama didn't attack Krugmen.  He simply said he changed his tone.  He didn't question his credibility, he simply implied that he may be biased towards Clinton with regards to this issue.


Precisely. (4.00 / 2)
The reason that Bowers and others are so bemused by this Obama "paradox" is that they've invented on half of it.  Since it is not, in fact, real, it appears mystifying.

What, exact, "pattern" of "attacking" progressive media has Obama displayed?  I believe Bowers' first post on this might have gone so far as to use the word "destroy" as in Obama set out to "destroy" Krugman, or some similar phraseology.

Uh, no. The Obama camp put out a weak rebuttal that I think tried to dodge the substance of Krugman's critique.  It wasn't very convincing, but it hardly constituted a vicious or disrespectful attack.  The fact that Krugman characterized it as a personal attack does not make it so.  Perhaps Paul Krugman, for all his phenomenal work, can be thin-skinned. I read it for myself and it is not an attack.

So other than the Krugman response and the false smears that Obama was conducting oppo research on bloggers that Bowers relied on, what else is this "pattern" of "attacking" the left based on?  Nothing, that's what.

And so there is the source of the confusion.  Why would Obama seem so thoughtful and progressive and have such great views on open media on the one hand, and yet then "attack" progressive media on the other?  It just doesn't make any sense.  That's right.  It doesn't.  And since the evidence for a pattern of "attacking" the left is basically absent, I think I have found a way to resolve this entire trumped-up "concern" all by my little self.

Next?


[ Parent ]
substantive versus personal (4.00 / 2)
Can you explain to me the substantive point of titling a "fact check" piece "Krugman Didn't Always Think So Poorly Of Obama's Plan" and then misleadingly cutting and pasting quotes from various articles to demonstrate the charge?

Charging a person with inconsistency is a way to undermine his integrity, it was a purely personal attack and in no way addressed the substance of Krugman's criticisms.

BTW, scare quotes don't improve your argument.


[ Parent ]
Quoting text = Substantive? (0.00 / 0)
Doesn't quoting someone's words make that a substantive claim if you're making a claim about their words?

For instance, you said "Can you explain to me the substantive point of titling a fact check piece ... and then misleadingly cutting and pasting quotes...?"  I'm not sure what was misleading about the quotes of Krugman's articles.  The before and after demonstrate that Krugman didn't always think so poorly of Obama's healthcare plan.  That is a substantive claim.  You can follow the links to the articles themselves for more information.

What else would you like the Obama fact check to do?

And how is questioning someone's change in tone the same as "undermining his integrity"?  Criticizing what someone said (as I am doing with you) is not the same as a "personal attack".

And regarding the substance of Krugman's criticisms ... Krugman is saying (substantively) that Obama's plan should be stronger and should include mandates.  Obama has said on several occasions that an unenforceable and unfunded mandate will just add cost to enforcement and get away from actually spending money on healthcare services.  I agree with this point.  If Krugman disagrees, then he's entitled to that.  I think he's wrong.  That doesn't mean that I dislike Krugman.

Peace.


[ Parent ]
No, quotes do not equal substance (0.00 / 0)
Quotes alone do not equal substance. Movie blurbs are the classic example. Taking a quote out of intended context is dishonest, and using out of context quotes in an attempt to demonstrate that someone changed position is an attack on that person's integrity.

The before and after demonstrate nothing, because the before omitted the part of the editorial that Krugman restated in the after. Obama published a pure smear.

As for tone, Krugman was critical of the weaknesses of the Obama plan before, and critical after, what changed was that Obama began attacking the principle of universality as coercive.

Your last paragraph is a substantive response to Krugman's argument, so clearly you know what a substantive response would have been. Pretending Krugman flip-flopped was not substantive.


[ Parent ]
Obama - the progressive. (4.00 / 4)
Obama the progressive:

  - Goes to Connecticut in 2006 to campaign for Lieberman's re-election. He says Lieberman should continue to work in "our behalf".

  - Votes for the Patriot Act.

  - Co-sponsors the "Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act". The Sierra Club warned that this legislation "would double the global warming emissions of regular gasoline..."

  - Opposes gay marriage because of his "religious beliefs".

  - Travels on a Gospel tour with homophobe Donnie McClurkin.

  - Receives $430,578 from Goldman Sachs.

  - Co-sponsors S.970, which calls for labeling the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. This is the same language Obama says he opposed in Kyn-Lieberman and for which he condemned Hillary Clinton.

Does this pass for a progressive agenda nowadays?


[ Parent ]
Bias (4.00 / 1)
I think what peeves me most in this debate is how often Obama's defenders accuse others of "bias".  What does this mean?  That you love Hillary for her hair, and therefore think Obama shouldn't attack Krugman?  It's basically accusing someone of being a liar: you may say you are concerned with only the issues, but *really* I know you're secretly just an Obama-hater.  The idea of being biased towards Clinton "with regard to this issue" -- a single issue bias! -- is even sillier.

[ Parent ]
There is a fundemental (4.00 / 1)
disagreement between Obama and the A list bloggers.  It is not about something trivial.

From the outset, a common theme of blogsphere has been that Democrats are not tough enough.  I was posting on DKos in 2002, and that was very much the accepted reason for their for the losses in '02. 

This theme in some ways defines the left blogsphere.  It informs their judgement on most everything from Impeachment to the Iraq funding debate to the Moveon.org ad.

The problem is that a core message of Obama is 180 degrees opposite to this theme.  And so even though he was the only major candidate to oppose the Iraq War, the left blogsphere remains suspicious. 

In some ways this is a dispute about style - and I think Obama is more right than wrong in his reading of the political landscape.  But there HAVE been things which trouble me: most notably the anti-gay stuff.  I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt: being against the war from the start is a signficantly more important than the concerns the blogsphere have raised. 

But I am not, in the end, for Obama.


[ Parent ]
Obama is like George Orwell (4.00 / 2)
Obama is like George Orwell.  Orwell despite being a staunch socialists has many fans among the right wing and aimed all of his attacks at socialist systems.

That being said I think Obama simply doesn't have any cultural sympathies with people like Krugman or edwards or Jerome Armstrong. 

His sympathies are more with the creative class and african Americans than the more heavily union based people like Jerome.

Which is honestly no surprise at all.


Two sides of the Equation (0.00 / 0)
Let's see if I understand both sides of the equation, to use your phrase.

Definition
Side A:  Obama's pro-new progressive media rhetoric and policies, and his strong support among new progressive media denizens

Side B:  His attacks against new progressive media figures when they attack him. His courting of MSM.

Possible Effects
Side A:  Shows understanding, judgment.  One can presume that he will later listen to his supporters during debates affecting new progressive media.

Side B:  Will he "fire" his supporters if they attack him later?  He might not be affected by what his supporters want if he later decides that new progressive media desires are too polarizing, ideological, harms to many workers (read media corporations), etc.

On the other hand:

Side A:  Talk is cheap.

Side B:  As new progressive media becomes more powerful, we won't have to worry as much about Obama betraying us.  Google money will help.

John McCain says overturn the law that legalized abortion


A theory (4.00 / 7)
Here's a stab.  I'm sort of spitballing here, though. (Since I'm not sure I feel the issue is as paradoxical as you make it out to be.)  Perhaps Obama is playing two games.  One is a short game, and one is a long game.

In the short game, Obama is interested in getting elected, and thinks the best strategy is one wherein he throws elbows at those who attack him from the left.  It fits his pattern of throwing the right a bone on rhetoric (and then turning left on substance (though this doesn't really show or matter in this context)), and shows he has backbone without pissing off the old media itself.  This serves to help him get elected, and build the kind of media narratives that will help him in the general as well.

In the long game, however, Obama prefers the new media to the old media (mostly for its intrinsic open character, rather than the particular voices in it), and wants to build it up and protect it.

I'm not sure these games are in conflict, necessarily, either.  The question, there, at least, is this: Does Obama marginalize or weaken the new media and progressive media when he attacks them when they and he find themselves on opposite sides of an issue?  I'm not sure he does.  If his attacks are substantial, rather than pure character assassination and marginalization (I think the Krugman attacks are relatively substantial, at least, by politics standards.  cf. how Bill O'Reilly would respond) they may even legitimize those sources in some way.  (Though this last statement gets into the realm of the extremely speculative, and I don't mind being told it's wrong.)


I'm inclined to agree. (0.00 / 0)
I think the long term vs. short term game may be a pretty good explanation.

Also, "There are few people in America who are more regularly criticized in public than bloggers"? Really? I don't believe I've ever heard the word "blogger" vocalized in person. I'm sure I've heard it on CNN and probably NPR, and that's about it. (Does this mean I'm criticizing bloggers?)


[ Parent ]
Nobody in America has been criticized more than Rex Grossman this year (4.00 / 1)
So at least the bloggers have that going for them ;)

[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 2)
Chris, I understand where you're coming from, but I guess I just don't see how this is an big, schizophrenic problem with Obama.  I think his response to Krugman was rash, and a bit paranoid, but he didn't attack him from the right.  He brought up differences in tone, probably because Krugman seems to have been carrying Hillary Clinton's water for a little while.  As I said in a comment on your last post, where are the PK columns decrying Hillary's right-wing framing on Iraq.

But PK aside, my view on the argument is that the benefits will far outweigh the costs.  To my knowledge, Obama hasn't gone out and attacked anyone out in the blogosphere besides maybe that Daily Kos lecture he gave a while back.  He's been cooler to the blogosphere than Edwards has, but it's annoyance to me, not a major concern.  Passing substantial new media legislation has been a goal of the netroots since its inception.  That Obama's proposal is the best should far outweigh any concerns that his communication skills with bloggers leave something to be desired.

In the end, I'm concerned with results.  Obama's media plan provides them, and he has the best chance of getting it passed.  Grudges will fall by the wayside.  Policies won't.  If Obama really had it in for progressive media, his new media policies would not be as sweeping as they are.  This is one issue where Obama's actions have spoken louder than his words.


HRC (0.00 / 0)
*clarification

I meant HRC's right wing framing on foreign policy.  Specifically on meeting with adversaries, Iran, immediate retaliation after terror attacks, not admitting Iraq mistakes etc.

Not a big portion of my post, but thought that needed clarification


[ Parent ]
Chris, I love ya but goodness.. (4.00 / 3)
Is this what it has come to? New Progressive Media and how a democratic candidate performs in this regard in terms of being 100 percent perfect? If there's one candidate who has consistently fought against the grain of the establishment and inspired a new generation of potential Democratic voters this cycle, it's definitely Barack Obama. For that alone, I give him and his campaign tremendous credit. 

 


Does not matter in the least how you frame it Chris... (4.00 / 1)
...any implication that Obama is other than perfect, is in fact not a progressive like Wellstone, Lee, Feingold et. al. will be met with rage and attacked.

Witness this thread.

Me?

I've learned the hard way at OrangeLand that the only way to hold own is to go on the attack. Eventually the worst of these cultists will leave.

But you are never going to have a productive conversation with people who already....

Know.

And those who follow Obama they know. They are the saved ones. No coincidence that Obama uses rhetorical devices of the black church. He's looking for people who believe.

A very dangerous guy similar in many ways to Huckabee in style and range.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Pot calling kettle (0.00 / 0)
Yet you do the same for Edwards. You "know."  Come on, Citizen.  Wake up from your foggy self absorbed dream of righteousness.

Yes.

Truth.

Pretentious single word paragraphs.  Oops, that's 3 words.


[ Parent ]
Here try this..... (4.00 / 2)
....Obama...not clear on who lives in a glass house?

and yeah, I support Edwards but I don't do it by trying to insist that he' s always right.

This is a characteristic of RWAs and am not such. Just a guy old enough to see through Obama the Empty Suit's slick jive.

I saw him in Oakland and I wasn't impressed then.

I'm still not.

Disagree as you will. You have not impressed me with the quality of your arguments and frankly your interjection of 'Truth' into this argument is laughable. If it's one thing Obama doesn't want getting out it's the facts about where he stands on the issues. That's something of considerably less importance that what I think you have in mind when you capitalize the 'Truth'.

And no Mr. Krabby, in your case 'Brevity is not the soul of wit.'

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
You're a blowhard. (0.00 / 0)
You don't have any arguments, just assertions.  You denigrate the motivations of Obama's supporters repeatedly. 

It's disrespectful and not productive. And also arrogant and naive.  Posters like you were banned at Mydd.

You're a blowhard.  You're not convincing anyone.  Where are your supporters here? 


[ Parent ]
where (4.00 / 1)
are you supporters here.  Well I'm one of them and the blowhard here is you.  Post crap and get it back.

[ Parent ]
big shots (0.00 / 0)
yeah, you and the other....2 or 3 angry guys.

real persuasive.  that's why you're "winning." 


[ Parent ]
Frankly, (4.00 / 6)
I think this thread, as well as the previous thread, demonstrates precisely the opposite point--namely, that Obama supporters are not true-believers, but are, instead, critical political actors who see Obama as a politician who will likely shift the balance of forces in this country in our direction.  In other words, we aren't attached to Obama the way Christians are attached to Jesus, but instead we are excited about the effects that this particular politician will likely have on our national political environment. 

Incidentally, we don't appreciate having our critical thinking skills impugned.  I'm sure we aren't alone in that regard.

 


[ Parent ]
I suggest that if you do not.... (4.00 / 1)
....appreciate having our critical thinking skills impugned.

You and your fellow Obamaphiles demonstrate some. Why do you think I characterize Obamaists as cultists? An accident? I'm stupid? Sorry pal, all you have to do is go to dKos and jump into any Obamacentric thread and my point will be glaringly obvious.

Obama supporters are hoping not thinking.

Had enough of that thanks. I don't want any more 'faith based' politics. Disagree fine but....

Fight your corner or take a beating. Politics is a full-contact activity something that Obama shows in flashes....

But not enough to win.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Obama Cult (4.00 / 1)
Obama's talk about healing, hugging, hope, is a huge turnoff for me.

It is just part of the Oprah/Dr Phil axis. So it was not shock to see him with Oprah. I bet lots of other people were turned off too.

There are people in this country who believe the end goal in politics must be "ending partisandhip". Wrong. You can't have politics without partisanship. They go together. And all the talk about ending partisanship is pure bs.

Obama cultists have convinced themselves that with Obama as president the GOP will turn off the attack machine and we will all live in harmony. This is pure bs.

Conservatives who are saying nice things about Obama are not going to be fawning over him during the general election. They are saying nice things about him out of Clinton hatred. If he were to become the nominee they would tear him to pieces.


[ Parent ]
So now I have to (4.00 / 1)
answer for all of Obama's supporters everywhere?  How about arguing about some of the posts in these threads (about which I spoke) instead of making a blanket claim about unspecified dkos threads.

This argument:

"Why do you think I characterize Obamaists as cultists? An accident? I'm stupid? Sorry pal, all you have to do is go to dKos and jump into any Obamacentric thread and my point will be glaringly obvious."

doesn't hold water.  We are cultists because you say so?  And there is no need for you to demonstrate the point because if anyone doesn't agree with you they are clearly blind? 

This is the logic of authoritarianism. 


[ Parent ]
Obamaphiles and Obamaphobes (0.00 / 0)
Cynicism - not really believing we can know anything - is a safe position but it leads to acceptance of intolerable behavior ... such as cross burning ("but they were only joking"), the Holocaust ("the Germans wouldn't do something so awful would they?"), etc.

Sometimes (not always), it is better to take a stand.  Having practical wisdom requires some good judgment, not necessarily knowing all the facts but knowing enough to know how to live and what to do next.

I believe Obama is the best qualified and best suited candidate of the top 6 to lead America as president in 2009.  I don't know for sure.  But I am willing to stand up with him and against others.

Are there more "certain" people out there than me?  Sure.  Some people are just built that way.  But I'm not.  I'm willing to accept them and their rhetoric and just take their claims to truth with a grain of salt.  There are Obama supporters out there who are a little too sure of themselves for my taste.  But when I look at the candidates, I find that Obama and Huckabee are the two candidates who are most capable of listening to other viewpoints while still maintaining their own personal views.  I find that quality attractive in a presidential candidate because I think that the ability to listen is more important than the ability to strongarm others - especially in the wake of the Bush Administration's tactics on Iraq and global warming.

I know there are a lot of people out there who are afraid to believe anything anymore.  That's sad, but I accept it and I understand how it feels.  However, I'm willing to hold to commitments within the context of relativism.  While I acknowledge that I could be wrong, I'm more concerned about the consequences of not taking a stand than I am concerned about being wrong.  I learn more by testing my hypotheses and actually jumping into the fray than I do by shooting spitballs from the peanut gallery.

Peace.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (4.00 / 3)
I'm an Obama supporter, but wouldn't classify my post above as a true believer article.

I don't see anything in this post but broad slander toward Obama supporters.  As I recall from your previous posts, you hype John Edwards more than anyone here that I've seen hype Obama.

I like John Edwards, and see no need to smear his supporters as cultists, or whatever you're getting at here, just because I like Obama more.


[ Parent ]
Obama cultists (4.00 / 1)
I agree. There is a cult mindset to Obama supporters. They see him as a Messiah. They really believe the day Obama is inaugurated the Right Wing Noise Machine will shut down, republicans in Congress will cooperate with Democrats for the good of the country, political polarization will end.

The corporate media has been feeding this fantasy.

Sad thing is the media will eventually turn on Obama. It will happen sooner than they think. Their Obama-love is driven by their hatred of the Clintons. If Obama were to win the nomination they would feather and tar him to a McGovern size defeat.


[ Parent ]
I think you give the MSM too much credit (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the MSM is the reason Kerry lost in 2004.  He lost that one by himself by not taking strong stands on the issues, and not responding to Swift Boat attacks.  The coverage in the run up to the 2004 campaign was not all that favorable to Bush.  After all, death and destruction on the nightly news is not exactly fawning press.

I'm confident any of the Dems will be more than able to take on the noise machine, and that includes Chris Matthews and whoever else.  Bush is just the gift that keeps on giving, and the major R contenders have adopted all of his policies to appease the dead enders.


[ Parent ]
btw MikeB (0.00 / 0)
I do agree with you on some Obama supporters.  The posts on his facebook group do pretty much announce the second coming.

However, I think most Obama supporters posting here and elsewhere don't deserve to be painted with the same brush as his high school acolytes on facebook.

In terms of disarming the right, I think he still is our best shot.  This quality is similar to the one Reagan had.  The Democrats justly hated his policies, but his ability to communicate them to the public rendered the opposition impotent, even with a Democratic majority Congress.  Attacks don't seem to stick much to Obama, and his communication skills and ability to connect with the public will drive Republicans nuts.

Notice how he became the change candidate, even though his policies are the same as Hillary's and Edwards' for the most part.  Communication is a powerful tool.  Obama can use it better than anyone.


[ Parent ]
A question worth asking (0.00 / 0)
Okay, so he's certainly no Chris Dodd.  But does Obama really treat "new and progressive media" figures with a heavier hand than those in the mainstream media?  (Where "mainstream media" somehow doesn't include Paul Krugman, apparently.)  This is an honest question, I don't know the answer, or how we would be able to judge this objectively, or demonstrate evidence.

Imus (4.00 / 1)
At least Obama hasn't asked for Don Imus' endorsement.

I love me some Chris Dodd, but come on, he's no saint either.


[ Parent ]
contradiction is OK (4.00 / 3)
Alinsky provides a very easy answer to this, which is that political action is always about getting it done from the starting point of present circumstances--not from a constant ideological ground, set of alliances or tools.  So, there's going to be contradiction.  And that's OK.

I've yet to come across a politician--or person, for that matter--who wasn't awash in contradiction, but the range of ability at 'getting it done' is vast.

With the exception of the hardcore Obama supporters, I'd guess that the question of 'getting it done' is more pressing at the moment than concern over contradictions. 


Yeah, But (0.00 / 0)
Attacking Paul Krugman?

That's not contradictory.  It's bizarre.

Dare I say it?  It's Ron Paul bizarre.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
yeah, but (0.00 / 0)
I agree it was a bad move, maybe a bit paranoid.

But Ron Paul bizarre?  You have a very wide paintbrush.

The campaign did have a point.  Krugman went from analyzing the plan and liking it in September (while preferring a mandate), to calling shrilly criticizing Obama in November, implying he was a traitor to progressivism.  I had never seen PK go off on a Democrat like that before, and he has had plenty of opportunities with Hillary's foreign policy and sad sacks in Congress.  It's understandable for Obama to respond, even though in my opinion, it was petty and counterproductive, and likely to beget more negative columns from PK.


[ Parent ]
If You Agree "Maybe A Bit Paranoid" (0.00 / 0)
Then that's the heart of what I was going for with the "Ron Paul" remark.  That, and a little bit hazy on basic matters of proportion.  I just don't think it's very presidential to go after a journalist.  That's what other journalists are for.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
I don't see (4.00 / 1)
any political upside for Obama staying quiet against Krugman's critique. If Obama believes in his policy, then he should defend it--in public.  Especially with Iowa so close.  Also: Krugman was not hurt in any way by this exchange and doesn't need defending. 

Methinks the Bowers doth protest too much with the betrayal narrative.  The OL folks got the internet Democracy policy they were pushing for, and now they're going to hedge a bit on supporting the candidate that gave it to them.  That seems to be the subtext, here.  And I can understand it--it makes sense.  The second they step up for Obama, there's real risk there.  What if he loses?  Much wiser to straddle the line a bit longer.

So this is about Krugman, OK.  But it's more about  endorsement season.

 


[ Parent ]
Can You Think of Any Precedents? (0.00 / 0)
I'm not saying that there aren't any.  But it just doesn't strike me as very presidential to be taking shots at journalists.  It strikes me as Nixonian.  Which is to say, bizarre.

And, really, I don't see the endorsement angle at all.

The OL folks got the internet Democracy policy they were pushing for, and now they're going to hedge a bit on supporting the candidate that gave it to them.

So now it's a crime to not be a cheap date?  C'mon!

People don't blog because they care about internet democracy.  They care about internet democracy because they blog.  And the reasons they blog are vast and various.  There's no reason to to jump on a bandwagon over the means, if it leaves you feeling queasy about the ends.  It's actually a quite rational response

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
the only candidate I can think of (0.00 / 0)
in this election who criticizes journalists is:  every single one of them. And I hope they keep doing it.

But Krugman is not a journalist.


[ Parent ]
Krugman Is A Journalist (0.00 / 0)
He's not a reporter. But he's a journalist.  I was a freelance journalist for seven years, and only did a smattering of reporting.  Mostly I did book reviews and op-ed pieces. I just edited a story by our theatre critic.  He does reviews for us and one other publication.  And sometimes goes years without doing any reporting.  This issue, he's done an article about a new theatre company.  But he's always a journalist.

Now, I have to admit that I'm not a candidate-oriented political junkie.  I've always been issue-oriented, rather than candidate-oriented, and this campaign has not been a good one for issues.  So maybe there's been a decided shift that I know nothing about.  Which is why I asked for precedents.

In fact, the historical precedents are quite rare, and the most prominent ones both involved Dan Rather, and both were because he was doing his job.  Nixon picked a fight with him while Watergate was getting white hot, and Bush senior picked a fight with him to avoid answering questions about Iran/Conta and perjury.

When a candidate makes a big deal about criticizing a journalist, these are the historical precedents they are calling up.  These are the defining examples.  I am not saying that the cases are equivalent.  They clearly are not.  But that's just the point:  you don't go there.  Krugman wrote something that Obama disagrees with.  You either ignore it, or you respond to the argument.  You don't get personal.  It makes you look like Richard Nixon.

If others are doing it, too, then shame on them as well.  They're supposed to be able to take it.  It comes with the territory.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Upside (0.00 / 0)
Krugman may count on the Washington-New York cocktail circuit but this nomination will likely be won in Iowa and New Hampshire.  Obama (or his camp) did two poor things.  They drew attention to their inability to handle any criticism from the Democratic side.  They also, quite frankly, drew attention to the weakest point in their case.  For what?  Yepsen counts in Iowa; Krugman does not.

Obama would do better to respond to Dave Nagle's column in the Des Moines Register about Oprah painting Iowans as unthinking rubes.  That one might hurt.

And don't snap Nagle's head off.  He's a former Democratic congressman and state party chair in Iowa.  Not just one of the media people that can be slapped around.


[ Parent ]
could be, but if he can't (0.00 / 0)
handle criticism from Democrats, why did he come out with his incredible netroots friendly open democracy proposal?  That's a direct response to criticism  from Democrats (us).  And Oprah is the most popular talk show in Iowa.  And Obama is tied for the lead in Iowa. 

Look...these posts speculating on a candidate's mistakes would make much more sense if they were were tied to some tumble in the polls by that candidate. This one is not.

It's an 9th-inning manager duel we're watching in Iowa--incredibly interesting stuff--but no big mistakes that I can see.


[ Parent ]
Inside baseball (0.00 / 0)
you wrote, "They drew attention to their inability to handle any criticism from the Democratic side.  They also, quite frankly, drew attention to the weakest point in their case."

as Jeffrey says, Obama is doing something right because he's ascendant, and your quote above does not strike me as anything voters are thinking about.


[ Parent ]
You could also argue (4.00 / 1)
it's the sign of a politician who does not let charges go unanswered.

Good politicians in my experience have thin skins - which makes them very wary of letting an attack go unanswered.

As opposed to Michael Dukakis or John Kerry.


[ Parent ]
I See Things a Bit Differently (4.00 / 2)
Deconstructing the blogosphere, I think that there is a tendency for some to try to shoehorn any media-related story into an old media vs new media framework.  It's only schizophrenia if you insist that Obama accepts this framing.

It felt more to me like Obama was clearly establishing that health care was one of the places that he wanted to stake out differences between himself and Hillary Clinton.  She knows that mandates are unworkable solution that will never pass and she's just coming out in favor of them because she's saying what she needs to say to get elected.  Having looked at the plans more now, I tend to prefer Obama's, but then I liked Howard Dean in 2004 in part because he rejected single-payer and favored a tiered approach to health care.  I think that one can be a progressive and still think that health care mandates are a bad idea.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


Staking out differences (0.00 / 0)
Drawing contrasts works better if your plan is better. Obama's health care plan is worse than Clinton's (or Edwards'). I don't understand this criticism of the mandate. It is not a coincidence that every left-leaning health care policy expert favors the mandate. If you're not going to do single-payer, you absolutely have to have a mandate; without it healthy people, knowing they can buy in only after they get sick, will stay out of the system. This drives up the cost for people who remain in the system, in turn encouraging more people to leave, etc. And there you have the death spiral. See Jonathan Cohn's article here for a detailed explanation.

Obama's health care plan won't work as written. Accept it.


[ Parent ]
In a perfect economic world (0.00 / 0)
Your analysis is correct.  Forcing everyone into the program  would allow those least likely to buy health insurance to shoulder the load for the elderly and unhealthy.  However, it's more complicated than that.  How do you enforce such a mandate to buy private insurance?  Do you have the IRS do it, or another healthcare IRS type collection agency?  Where do you cut off the subsidies?  How do you deal with people who just lost their jobs and health insurance who may be above the subsidy line, but still can't fork out the cash for mandatory heath insurance?  What about people in their 20s who are frequently in between jobs?  That was me this year.  Do you force them to sign up and pay for government healthcare, when they're already burdened with enormous student loan debt and little savings?  And is forcing people to buy into the private insurance industry really such a good thing?  I have strong reservations about that as well.

There are good arguments for mandates, but there are also legitimate questions that make me shy away from them.  I'd like to see the enforcement methods available, and how Hillary plans to cover everyone this way.  Those are answers I need to know because I am not currently on board with mandates because of the spectre of enforcement.  Somehow, I have a feeling that this is one of those cases where something that looks good on paper would be a disaster in practice.


[ Parent ]
misinformed (0.00 / 0)
You should take a closer look at the plans. The mandates in the Democratic plans are for insurance, not private insurance, in each of the universal plans you can buy into the public plan. Only Obama's plan excludes most people from purchasing insurance from his public plan, since large business may not enroll in the public plan.

[ Parent ]
It's not simple (4.00 / 1)
It certainly is an issue how the mandate would be enforced. But that doesn't mean it isn't essential. As I outlined above, the collapse of the system is inevitable without the mandate. It's a critical component of the cost control, without which the insurance companies would all go broke (I know, boo hoo). This would be cool if it actually resulted in single payer, but the insurance companies will find a way to survive through the ensuing crisis, undoubtedly using the crisis as a reason to dismantle the reform rather than install the needed mandates.

I personally favor single payer, though I understand it would be disruptive. That's why I prefer Edwards' plan, which puts us on a slippery slope to single payer without actually legislating it directly.


[ Parent ]
I think his decision (0.00 / 0)
reflects the belief that the mandidate opened the door to a series of attacks that were unnecessary, and in the end would not make a significant difference in actually covering people.

I am not convinced he is right about this.


[ Parent ]
Yea or nay (0.00 / 0)
Looks like we spent most of 2007 deciding whether to go yea or nay on Hillary Clinton.  The last few weeks and the rest of the campaign will be deciding whether to go yea or nay on Barack Obama.  I dislike the tone and nastiness of a lot of this but at least the discussion is being held.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, held a similar conversation about John Kerry four years ago.  Given the inevitable right wing smears, how would he hold up.  Would he stand with progressives or placate the right?  The "new media" story was not even a story.

Obama's media honeymoon (4.00 / 1)
Chris Bowers overlooks the real dynamic here. The reason the media has been fawning over Obama is because they hate the Clintons. Obama has made an alliance with the Russerts and Matthews type in the DC media establishment who hate Hillary's guts and would do anything to derail her. It is highly unlikely that these people will be there for him during the general election. Neither will the Peggy Noonan types. They are not for Obama. They are against Hillary. At the end they will be cheering on the GOP nominee. Russert/Matthews/Dowd axis will do to the Dem nominee what they did to Gore and Kerry.

Obama has decided that one way to show this crowd he is one of them is to Sister Souljah on SS, mandates and Paul Krugman.

I always smelled something phony about Obama and his talk about healing and hugging. The more he reveals himself the more I am convinced he is a big phony.


[ Parent ]
Ah yes, an alliance (0.00 / 0)
Barack Obama, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews and Maureen Dowd got together in a smoke filled, dark room and schemed for a way to get Barack flattering coverage in the mainstream media to prevent the evil Hillary from coming to power.

Quick, duck, I can see the black helicopters on the horizon!

Perhaps Obama believes his SS and health care policies are the best way forward?  Also, I don't think his foreign policy of negotiating with enemies is particularly endearing to the talking heads of the world.

Seriously, the MSM has its flights and fancies.  Obama doesn't have anything to do with it.  They have their narratives, and will turn on Obama when they feel like it.  I don't like the influence the MSM has on election narratives, but don't blame Obama's "phoniness" for it.


[ Parent ]
Boa Constrictors Are Big On Hugging, Too (4.00 / 1)
I always smelled something phony about Obama and his talk about healing and hugging.

It could be genuine.

You could be lunch.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
It's a testament to the upside that you long for in Obama (0.00 / 0)
that you haven't dumped him a long time ago. I mean, his two posts on Kos were critical of the netroots' position on confirmation, he later dissed Daily Kos, he spoke disparagingly of seculars, he publicly opposed the Kerry-Feingold withdrawal resolution in favor of the "responsible" Levin resolution, he endorsed Lieberman in the primary and was tepid in his support for Lamont in the general, McClurkin, Krugman, Social Security "crisis", and I think you get my drift. This is a pattern that continues to this day.

I realize that there are a lot of good, even great things about Obama as a person and a politician, but as a progressive I don't want to relive the 1990s with a president (you know, the guy with the biggest bully pulpit on the planet) who would routinely kick people on his own side for short term political gain. Let Obama wheel and deal and charm people in the Senate, where he'll do a lot of good.



Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!


Disillusioned with Obama and Edwards (0.00 / 0)
I was disappointed with Obama and Edwards when they attacked Hillary for truthfulness--base on spins--like the SS and driver licenses and Iraq--then when asked the same questioned --they answered the same way as Hillary did.

The thing is the issue is very complicated and the answers are also complicated.

Attacking Hillary when they do the same thing is not being honest.



Attacking Hillary? (0.00 / 0)
Hillary has from the beginning tried to position herself as an authoritative and experienced leader, and to hold Obama (in particular) and all other candidates (generally) as lacking what she has.

Hillary's gaffe on drivers licenses illustrated what Obama has been saying all along - we need nuanced positions on difficult issues.  "Strong leadership" doesn't always mean sound bite policies.  Sometimes strong leaders need to say "this is hard and we need to wrestle with it longer".

The reason that moment was important in the campaign is that Hillary showed from her own behavior that sometimes you need to think a little bit about issues before you oversimplify.  If Hillary would think a little more and posture a little less (as Bill said, she's a bit too hardheaded by her own admission see

http://www.washingto...

for more), she would impress me more and I might be more likely to stand behind her candidacy.

Peace.


[ Parent ]
What I See (4.00 / 1)
If there were a blogger Hall of Fame Chris Bowers would be Babe Ruth, or at least famous lefty Sandy Koufax, but I gotta admit I was really turned off by your earlier post today which set a new standard for detached insular blogger introspection.  I still really like people like Jerome Armstrong and Taylor Marsh too.  I agree that the Obama campaign has been uneven in terms of blogger outreach but this thing is not about bloggers and who can kiss up to them the most, it's about people, and change, and peace and giving this country a new start and its about restoring pride in America again, and about being what we can be and inspiring a new generation to want something else in life besides a Hummer and saving the planet too. 

I live in Washington, DC -- OK, start throwing spitballs like Obama may have done in First Grade -- but most of the people I see are not lobbyists or consultants but people who work and who are just trying to make thier way on the fringes of "official" Washington.  The new people, people who have never been involved in the process before, are all with Obama.  There aren't any new faces in the Clinton Campaign.  That is just my small corner of the world.  None of the other campaigns are even a blip on the screen. 

Maybe Obama's blogger outreach sucks, if so, thet should get thier act together.  His people outreach, however, looks darn good to me. 


bravo (0.00 / 0)
howard, bravo! i don't know if you were paying attention, but your mushy inspirational obama vision stuff makes the bloggers throw-up a little in their mouth.  can you hear the choking??


[ Parent ]
Did I miss where Chris substaniated his claim of oppo research (0.00 / 0)
by the Obama campaign on some/one blogger?

Thought so.

Time for a blogger ethics panel?


Is clarifying = attacking? (0.00 / 0)
Clarifying a position based on quotation of someone's earlier words is not the same as attacking that person.

It might be that there's something I don't know about and that Paul Krugman has endured some personal slight.  I really couldn't say.

However, Krugman's reversal of stance (even if not a reversal of position) from 6/4 to 11/30 is clear from the Obama website fact check.

Here's why it matters: Krugman's words could easily be misused by the Clinton campaign, which has notoriously and on several occasions used sound bites to criticize Obama on everything from his experience to his presidential ambitions to his "lack of leadership".  This is a political campaign, and it's based more on truthiness than on truth.

Personally (and again, I could be missing something and welcome you or others to fill us in on the details that are missing ... which would move the dialogue forward), I don't believe that Obama campaign's position constitutes a position of attack on Krugman.

Peace.


answered my own question (0.00 / 0)
in the interest of honesty, I answered my own question about who thinks this is a big issue...

Krugman opens his 11/30 editorial by aligning himself with those who want universal health care.  He then speaks critically of Obama's plan from that position, saying that Obama isn't strong enough.

Obama quite simply believes that mandates without a plan for enforcement are not a good idea.  Personally, I agree with him.  There's a difference between universal access and universal coverage.  Universal access implies that you CAN get insurance if you want to.  Universal coverage implies that you MUST get insurance.

Krugman makes the argument on 11/30 that Obama's position is "weak" or "timid".  He claims that on 6/4 that reading people's positions gives you a sense of their character and leadership style.  This would seem to suggest that Krugman is claiming that Obama's leadership style is weak or timid.

I would submit another way of looking at it ... Obama is not "weak" or "timid" but "pragmatic".  And he's able to be pragmatic because he's actually paying attention to the realities and not just taking a doctrinal stance.

I agree with Obama's position - and style - in claiming that you can't mandate coverage for people unless you have a realistic plan for enforcement.  Also agree with Obama's position that the real issue is healthcare costs, not healthcare insurance.

I agree with Krugman's claim that emergency room costs for uninsured patients will be a problem for providers.  So, why don't we suggest a solution?  Why not mandate emergency room coverage only (and you can enforce that when people come into the ER) and make other coverage optional?  Does this move the dialogue forward?  I welcome feedback on this...


[ Parent ]
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