On Turning Up the Heat

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 19:01


From what is being billed as Obama's "closing argument":

It's change that won't just come from more anger at Washington or turning up the heat on Republicans. There's no shortage of anger and bluster and bitter partisanship out there. We don't need more heat. We need more light. I've learned in my life that you can stand firm in your principles while still reaching out to those who might not always agree with you. And although the Republican operatives in Washington might not be interested in hearing what we have to say, I think Republican and independent voters outside of Washington are. That's the once-in-a-generation opportunity we have in this election.(…)

In the end, the argument we are having between the candidates in the last seven days is not just about the meaning of change. It's about the meaning of hope. Some of my opponents appear scornful of the word; they think it speaks of naivete, passivity, and wishful thinking.

But that's not what hope is. Hope is not blind optimism. It's not ignoring the enormity of the task before us or the roadblocks that stand in our path. Yes, the lobbyists will fight us. Yes, the Republican attack dogs will go after us in the general election. Yes, the problems of poverty and climate change and failing schools will resist easy repair. I know - I've been on the streets, I've been in the courts. I've watched legislation die because the powerful held sway and good intentions weren't fortified by political will, and I've watched a nation get mislead into war because no one had the judgment or the courage to ask the hard questions before we sent our troops to fight.

But I also know this. I know that hope has been the guiding force behind the most improbable changes this country has ever made.

OK, so Obama knows that Republicans in Washington will continue to fight to block good legislation as they always have, but also argues that "turning up the heat on Republicans" won't stop them. Instead, he argues that hope will stop them from blocking good legislation. He then gives the following four examples of hope:

In the face of tyranny, it's what led a band of colonists to rise up against an Empire. In the face of slavery, it's what fueled the resistance of the slave and the abolitionist, and what allowed a President to chart a treacherous course to ensure that the nation would not continue half slave and half free. In the face of war and Depression, it's what led the greatest of generations to free a continent and heal a nation. In the face of oppression, it's what led young men and women to sit at lunch counters and brave fire hoses and march through the streets of Selma and Montgomery for freedom's cause. That's the power of hope - to imagine, and then work for, what had seemed impossible before.

Achieving independence in the American Revolution, freeing slaves in the Civil War, freeing Europe in World War Two… does Obama notice that three of the four examples he gives of "hope" solving major problems involved extremely bloody, violent wars and revolutions? How are an armed revolution, a civil war, and an invasion of an entire continent not examples of "turning up the heat" on an intransigent opposition who is blocking freedom and positive change? When someone can explain that to me, then maybe I can understand how not turning up the heat on Republicans is not a solution to passing good legislation.

Chris Bowers :: On Turning Up the Heat

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If I wanted to do a friendly restatement/elaboration of his argument, (4.00 / 3)
it would be that the elected Republican Party in Washington is completely useless, but that Republican and Republican-leaning-Independent voters out in the country are not.  And that they can be reached by employing relatively friendly and respectful argument, and only by employing relatively friendly and respectful argument.  So, Clinton is unable to reach out to Republican and Indy-publican voters, (and in a lesser point, Edwards is uninclined to do so), but Obama by personality and experience is good at reaching out to those voters.  And so if you if you send him up as a leader for eight years, he'll create "Obama Democrats" the same way an earlier man created "Reagan Republicans", and he'll win over voters, and therefore Congressional seats, and weaker opposition from the remaining GOP caucus, thereby delivering progressive legislative results.

It is a Theory of Change argument again.

I think this bit of text supports the fact that this is his argument:

And although the Republican operatives in Washington might not be interested in hearing what we have to say, I think Republican and independent voters outside of Washington are. That's the once-in-a-generation opportunity we have in this election.

And separately, anytime anyone talks about the behavior of Republicans, I think it is a very good idea to be clear about whether Elected Republican Officials, the Greater Republican Party Apparatus, or Ordinary Republican Voters (or some other thing) is being described.  There are differences, and being unclear on this point can lead to a great deal of confused argument.


Another strawman, vanquished by a bold and triumphant Obama. (4.00 / 2)
With a valiant assist from tex dem, that is.

Who, in the Democratic field, is proposing to break rank and file Republican voters' strangelhold on our economy? Or to reverse the effect of John Q. Republican Citizen's stubborn ideology and obstructionism on our politics? Or to curb republican-leaning independents' assault on the middle class?

This is not a restatement of Obama's philosophical differences with fellow Democrats. It's a clumsy and unpersuasive response to a recent criticism (I just cant think of who it was. P. Rosenberg? Ezra K? Krugman? Somebody please tell me) that the Obama campaign's essential flaw is its failure to distinguish between the radical and intransigent Republicans inside the beltway from the relatively non-ideological masses who voted them in.

Hope and compromise will get you a chance at high Q-ratings from the latter, and nonstop scorn, derision and legislative humiliation from the former. And if opinion polls are to be believed, most of these people are already seriously disenchanted with their so-called president, congressional republicans and, to some degree, the Republican presidential contenders. They simply don't need to be brought on board. So why would anyone build a campaign around doing just that? No, this closing argument is as wrongheaded as the case in chief. It's bad enough that Dems have been bringing knives to gunfights all these years. Now this guy wants to bring candy and flowers. No matter how cleverly you rationalize it, appeasing bullies never works. Obama's internal polling must show that Iowans understand that.


[ Parent ]
Quite Right! (4.00 / 1)
I've been saying for a long time that there's ooodles of common ground with conservative voters, but none at all with movement conservative elites, and that Obama was foolish for trying to play kissy face with the later.

Now, all of the sudden, Obama realizes that I was right all along!  And now it's a key part of his argument!

Only he still can't quite explain how hope alone freed the colonies, ended slavery, and defeated the Nazis.

But, he's working on it.

onedogtyping:

And if opinion polls are to be believed, most of these people are already seriously disenchanted with their so-called president, congressional republicans and, to some degree, the Republican presidential contenders. They simply don't need to be brought on board. So why would anyone build a campaign around doing just that?

That, too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So it WAS Paul Rosenberg! There was a diary or a comment (0.00 / 0)
sometime in the past week, and of course you said it much better than I ever could. Would you mind providing a link? I tried but was unable to find it . . .

Thanks!


[ Parent ]
Well I Did Say It Quite Explicitly In One Particular Comment (4.00 / 1)
When another commentator said:

this sounds somewhat like the arguments that some Israelis and their supporters use in opposing any sort of peace talks or a separate state for Palestinians.

I responded:

But I Don't Think This Is True Of The Conservative Base

And I've said so many times.  I've repeatedly pointed out, for example, that more than half of self-identified conservatives support expaneded or steady welfare state spending, and that only about 1% or so support the Grover Norquist agenda of destroying the welfare state altogether.

This is my problem with Obama in a nutshell--instead of focusing on reaching out to the conservative base--where there really is a possibility of dialogue, he insists on reaching out to folks who have built their careers on misleading and misrepresenting that base.

He obviously thinks it's a smart strategy, and the piece I'm analyzing here explains one line of reasoning why this might be so.  But I simply see no evidence that this approach will work, given the larger political environment, and 40 years of a movement conservative war of position.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
With Respect: (0.00 / 0)
Paul, I think you may have made the best argument here for Obama.

If a significant majority of Americans already support much of the progressive agenda, why go nuclear against the 41 Senators who don't?  By showing genuine respect to the people they voted for, doesn't Obama gain their respect and trust instead of inciting them with hostility and fear?  And isn't that fear what got us here?  And isn't that what he means by "hope"?


[ Parent ]
Who told you 'The Vile 41' are afraid.... (4.00 / 4)
they're not doing this our of fear.

This is their avowed political tactic. They plan to run in 2008 and beyond against a 'Do Nothing' Democratic Congress. They've said as much.

And they are doing it. They are opposing everything that comes down the legislative pipeline. Obama's 'strategy' makes no headway against such political chicanery. A fact that seemingly has eluded Mr. Hopeful.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
With All Due Respect... (4.00 / 3)
(1) The people they voted for are badly misrepresenting their interests.

(2) They already have a low opinion of people representing them, without knowing specifically why.

(3) Obama has no such problem attacking progressives--often for things they haven't done.

(4) But he's also reluctant to go after corporate bad actors, as well, and has lied to justify doing so. (Claiming that health insurers employ 2-3 million people, for example, when the real number is about 20% of that.)

(5) Why doesn't Obama just tell the truth???

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Even More Respect: (0.00 / 0)
(1 & 2) Then why do they keep voting for them?  Could it be because they don't trust the people telling them not to?

(3) Again, aren't you confusing the people with their Kings?

(4) Isn't going after corporate actors like swatting mosquitoes instead of draining the swamp?  And how do you drain the swamp when the land it's on is owned by the Kings (of both parties!)?  Isn't Obama's road, while long, the only way short of revolution?

(5) Whose truth?  Is it honest to sell the idea of getting all the Kings to abdicate their interests?  Or that you will slay them all with your sword?


[ Parent ]
No Kings! (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, I think you're in the wrong millenium.

(1 & 2) Then why do they keep voting for them?  Could it be because they don't trust the people telling them not to?

(A) BIG PICTURE: As long as movement conservatives can get away with demonizing Democrats, they won't have to do jack shit.  And as long as Democrats refuse to fight back vigorously--and even (horrors!) initiate some attacks of their own--movement conservatives will continue as they have been.

(B) MEDIUM PICTURE: But, even without Dems fighting back, the GOP's multiple failures are pretty damn hard to ignore.  Hence the 2006 elections, so it's no longer a fair generalization to assume that "they keep voting for them."

(C) LITTLE PICTURE: However, the Dem's failure to effectively fight GOP obstructrionism since 2006 threatens to undermine the advances they reaonably ought to be making.

All the above is very well known, and the fact that you blithely ignore it strongly suggests that you are not really seriously engaged in political discussion.  You are just lobbing mindless bits of mental flotsum and jetsum.

So much of what I hear from Obamaphiles online is of similar low quality.  There is astonishingly little evidence of having paid attention to anything outside of the Obama parade.

(3) Again, aren't you confusing the people with their Kings?

I haven't a clue what you mean.

(4) Isn't going after corporate actors like swatting mosquitoes instead of draining the swamp?  And how do you drain the swamp when the land it's on is owned by the Kings (of both parties!)?  Isn't Obama's road, while long, the only way short of revolution?

Again, not a clue what the hell you're trying to say.  Other than Obama's the best thing since sliced bread.

(5) Whose truth?  Is it honest to sell the idea of getting all the Kings to abdicate their interests?  Or that you will slay them all with your sword?

You need to learn to read in context. I was talking about how the problem of polarization was related to movement conservatives mis-representing those who trust and vote for them.  Yet, Obama has rarely criticized them for it, under the banner of "civility," "post-partisanship" and slaying the dragon of "polarization."  Instead, he turns his fire on progressive activists, often echoing rightwing framing.

When I asked why he didn't just tell the truth, that's what I was talking about: everything I had entered into the discussion beforehand.  So, this translates into things like the following: Tell the truth about how un-Christian their "Christian" leaders are. Tell the truth about who is standing in the way of getting anything done.  Tell the truth about how it's Bush who is putting the troops in harms way. Etc., etc., etc.

You really need to take a remedial reading course.  There are good ones at community colleges all across the land.

Your writing could use some help, too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ouch! (0.00 / 0)
I make it a point not to respond to posts unless I feel I have something constructive to add to the conversation, and I take to heart your criticisms of my contextual abilities and writing skills.

Like you, I am deeply concerned about the direction our country has been moving - in my case, for the last 27 years. 

I was sincerely trying to express something that is real and tangible to me, but I can see that my writing has failed me miserably.  Maybe someday I'll learn to express myself at a level comparable to yours.


[ Parent ]
Look., I'm Sorry I Was So Harsh (0.00 / 0)
I know you're a good person, and I wasn't being one when I wrote that that way.  I would stand by the points I was trying to make--that you aren't considering the context fully--but I was wrong to express them in a disrespectful manner.

There has just been such an avalanche of poorly-reasoned attacks, defenses and simplistic gushing of late--one of the reasons I haven't endorsed anyone--that I've become overly sensitive.  You, at least, were trying to put things in your own words, which indicates a deeper level of reflection than those I've found so intensely frustrating of late.

So I apologize.  I shouldn't have unloaded like that.  Disagreed? Yes.  Challenged you?  Yes.  But I got carried away with my own frustration, and completely lost touch with yours.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Another strawman down! Who's going nuclear? And (4.00 / 1)
where is the evidence that lying prone, waiting to be violated again, has ever succeeded in the face Republican/Corporate dominance? I am begging you. Please. Surprise me, just this once, with EXAMPLES progressive populist victories over congressional Repubs, won by the Obama method.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, but (4.00 / 4)
It isn't the Republican rank and file that is blocking good legislation in D.C.  Rather, it is the same Republican elected officials and activists that we face now. We already have 60-70% support on pretty much everything. The rank and file isn't the problem. If Obama is suggesting that we can pass legislation by reaching a large part of the Republican voting base, then I don't know what he thinks has happend this cycle on Iraq, energy, health care, etc. We already have overwhelming support on these issues, inclduing significant support from the Republican rank and file. The Repbulicans in D.C. don't care.

I fail to see how what he is suggesting is in any way different from what we are trying now. And what we are trying now isn't working.

[ Parent ]
He's Suggesting That We Forget His Role In Undermining Nancy Pelosi (4.00 / 3)
Remember him mouthing Karl Roves lines?  About not cutting off funding and leave our troops out in the field with no bullets?

That's what he's suggesting:  Don't look at what I did when the chips were down.  Look at what I'm saying now!

(Only, don't look to closely at it, like you did in the diary, Chis!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Agree with your analysis. (0.00 / 0)
I think that for Obama the opposite of hope is cynicism.  He isn't fighting hyperpartisanship as much as cynicism and close-mindedness.  It's true that we need someone to stand up to Republicans, although the calculus will be different if we get the trifecta in 2008.  At that point what we will need is not someone to stand up to a GOP President but a Dem Pres who can go over the heads of the GOP obstructionists in Congress and appeal to the people.  And someone who knows how to talk to them with some modicum of respect is going to be very necessary if the GOPers are to be isolated.

Texas Dem's point at the end is a good one.  It is also important to consider what the landscape is going to look like in Jan 2009, not be too hung uo on what it looks like now.  (Assuming the Bushies actually do leave office . . . .)

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
With all due respect, you're kidding, right? (4.00 / 1)
for Obama the opposite of hope is cynicism.  He isn't fighting hyperpartisanship as much as cynicism and close-mindedness.

Where are the Democrats (or even Republicans, for that matter) who are advocating cynicism?

It's true that we need someone to stand up to Republicans, although the calculus will be different if we get the trifecta in 2008.  At that point what we will need is not someone to stand up to a GOP President but a Dem Pres who can go over the heads of the GOP obstructionists in Congress and appeal to the people.

What does any of this have to do with Obama? When has he ever stood up to Bush; the race-to-the-bottom multinationals; the people who brought you the mortgage crisis and the coming depression; the fossil fuel, health insurance and other predatory industries; or the Republicans who shill for them in congress? When? And please don't tell me that he's not going to do that until we give him the nod and he gets elected president. There's no time like the present. What's stopping him?

And someone who knows how to talk to them with some modicum of respect is going to be very necessary if the GOPers are to be isolated.

Who are the Democratic candidates who are being disrespectful to the American people?


[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
that he is trying to say that his plan is not to yield the fight before it begins but to approach our solutions with unity and strength.  I think that the kind of unity Obama is talking about is uniting the 70% of our citizens who are willing to consider progressive ideas and solutions and treating with respect all of our citizens.

I have said it many times, but I truly believe that in the long run the hyper-partisanship championed by Limbaugh, Gingrich and Rove is bad for our country and good for Republican politicians.  We have to escape the divisive frames that have defeated Democrats and weakened America since 1994.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


We already have 70% support (4.00 / 2)
We already have 70% support on virtually everything. Demcorats in Congress won't dare try anything unless they have 60-70% support. And yet that hasn't helped us pass anything. And Limbaugh isn't going away, no matter what Democrat wins.

We already have large numbers of the Republican rank and file on pretty much anything. It hasn't led to us passing anything. It has, instead, led to record filibusters in the Senate.


[ Parent ]
We Only Have 60-70% When Obama Says We Have It (0.00 / 0)
He's just like the punditalkcrazy that way.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Marshall that support (0.00 / 0)
Right now we can't win with it because Bush will veto anything rational and we have to plan ahead for overriding a veto before we start whipping votes.  In the 90's we couldn't do it either because the Republicans decided that they had more to gain by being obstructionists, it seems they were right because they won majorities based on it.

What we need is leadership in the White House or Congress that can marshall that 60-70% support on issues and marshall it to pass legislation.  Who do you think is best equipped to fight and win that battle?

You know who I think stands the best chance of enacting progressive reforms.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
We Know What You Think (4.00 / 1)
What we don't know is what's your evidence.

To make things perfectly clear, here's the fundamental problem you have to deal with: How do you rally people if you aren't willing to draw clear distinctions?

Edwards doesn't have that problem.  Obama does.  So how does he solve it?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But we lack spokespeople (0.00 / 0)
We lack effective, articulate spokespeople who can command attention from the media and make the connection between the disaffected populace, the programs they support and the people who are obstructing them.  Pelosi and Reid don't cut it in that respect, Dean is muzzled on policy issues, and attention is fractured among the candidates of both parties and Bush/Cheney.  It will be very different post-election, even by summer.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Obama COULD HAVE Been Such A Spokesperson (4.00 / 1)
Starting with Day One in the Senate.

But, turns out, comity is his schtick, not justice.

    "Bored Now!" -- Willow Rosenberg, Buffy, The Vampire Slayer,
      Episodes "The Wish," "Doppelgängland" and "Villains."


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
This guy's a fucking idiot with a capital "I". (0.00 / 0)
I am soooo fucking sick of this shtick.  And I say this as a supporter of his.  Hillary is a GUARANTEED centrist-conservative and I am afraid Obama will turn out this way or even - GASP - worse.

I support him as a roll of the dice that he'll end up progressive and a fighter.  However, the more and more I hear him, the less convinced I am.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


Obama's not specifically talking to you Chris. (4.00 / 3)
You're already engaged in making our government and society work better.

Problem is, you're backing, however skillful and dedicated (!), just isn't enough.  Our backing just isn't enough.

We need more people to join us.
Most of them are not "just like us."
Most of them live their lives differently, get their political socialization and information differently, participate (or not) differently.

Why not?

Obama's answer hope is really talking about the opposite of learned helplessness which leads to disengagement from the system (my vote won't matter, both parties are the same, Democrats say they're for me but when they get in office nothing changes, etc.).  Like I said, we don't fall for those essentially right wing (and Naderite) pitches.  But many people do.

You don't activate them by cutting policy deals (selling out) or by turning up the rhetorical heat.  And though I agree with Edwards (my second choice), he's got his model for transformative change backwards--NEW people don't respond much to his type of populist rhetoric because they don't trust it.  They've heard it before.  He's largely getting a response from the choir--which is good but insufficient. 

Public opinion polls always show that people like Democratic policy proposals better; why is that not translating into more victories at the Presidential level?  We haven't won a post-Civil Rights Act of 1964 election without the aid of Perot/Buchanan and Nixon/Ford (I'm lumping 96 in with 92, I know). 

We need, somehow, to bring in people who aren't so much like us, Chris.  Hope is the colloquial term for a sense that what I do matters.  The old solutions aren't working so well.  You may not trust or like Obama's alternative but it's not the emptily naive slogan some people make it out to be.



I think part of the blame is the consultants .. (4.00 / 1)
I know it is easy to torch them .. but they deserve it .. I would bet most consultants aren't Dems at heart .. look at guys like Shrum .. or Lehane and Penn .. they don't have the best interests of Dem candidates in mind .. they just chase the money .. and they know Dems will keep hiring them despite their crappy record(Shrum being the perfect example) .. we need people with a proven record of success and commitment to progressive/liberal values

[ Parent ]
Well, Penn certainly isn't a progressive. He's a money-grubbing (4.00 / 1)
corporate WHORE.

There's nothing progressive about his frumpy, dishevelled, unkempt ass.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


[ Parent ]
Popular suport doesn't matter (4.00 / 2)
If it did, we would have passed sweeping reform legislation on Iraq, energy and health care this year. We already have 70% support on all of those issues. And yet, they didn't pass.

We don't need new popular support. We already have the popular support. That popular support hasn't changed Republican behavior in D.C.  I fail to see why it will in the future.

The solution is indeed to turn up the heat on Republicans. Even Obama's example of "hope" are examples of cranking up the heat as hot as it can get. His examples of "hope" are predominately armed conflict, not yet more popular support. 

[ Parent ]
No You Don't Have The Popular Support (0.00 / 0)
You just have 70% of the people agreeing with some poll questions.  Apples and oranges.  Writers here so many other leftist websites- keep forgetting about the importance of charisma in shaping policy.  So when Obama basically says he's Reagan 2.0 you folks have no coherent response.  So instead you look to rip down and criticize- but that's not what the average person does and thus that's where you lose then and open yourselves up to critisism by MSM.

And I say this as a person who shares 99% of the political views as you do.  I am not an Obama supporter but it saddens me to se you folks miss his message so badly over and over...


[ Parent ]
Reagan was a charismatic fighter for conservatism (4.00 / 3)
Obama can be charismatic, sure, but he generally fights *against* liberalism, as evidenced by this battles with progressives of late.

Obama is no leader, let alone a progressive one.


[ Parent ]
?? (0.00 / 0)
You are not suggesting that the GOP will act exactly as they do now when a dem is president, are you?

[ Parent ]
Popular support isn't enough (0.00 / 0)
The power of the Presidency is really great, especially with a compliant media, and we have seen that it can overcome lack of popular support (note I didn't say opposition) if there isn't strong leadership to give it voice.

A strong Pres can appeal over the heads of Congress and the media, but a bunch of legislators can't.  I grant you that all 3 of the candidates haven't shown sufficient strong leadeership so far in the campaign.  Obama is to some extent looking beyond the campaign and to how he could govern his own party and thye whole country.  He is not perfect by a long shot, but I think that his message, which is not always aimed at us, is often misunderstood.  As I said above, I think the opposite of hope for Obama is cynicism, as I said above, or learned helplessness, as someone else said. 

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
But It's A False Dichotomy (0.00 / 0)
As I said above, I think the opposite of hope for Obama is cynicism, as I said above, or learned helplessness, as someone else said.

But neither of those describes Edwards, whose politics presents the sharpest contrast to Obama's kissy-face approach.

In short, I understand Obama's psychology.  Just not what it has to do with the real world.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This is what the.... (0.00 / 0)

..........'Joe Lieberman wing of the Democratic Party is about! layered bullshit over a capitulation base.

Why capitulation?

Because the folks backing Lieberman are the folks backing Obama are the folks backing Clinton are the folks who backed Bush I and II.

They like things just the way they are, thanks.

So...

Go ahead and write yer congresscritter and blog and do all that good stuff but remember what's good for the uber-rich is the only good that will be allowed.

Just ask any of my 'good collegues' here in the Senate. We're all in this together. We just get more cool stuff than you do.

As my Republican friends used to say when they were ridin' high on the hog with 'W':

Get used to it!

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


It isn't a lack of fighting (0.00 / 0)
How are an armed revolution, a civil war, and an invasion of an entire continent not examples of "turning up the heat" on an intransigent opposition who is blocking freedom and positive change?

The rebellion was mostly outlasting the british.  The civil war the south started, and the same with WW2.

In other words the side that turned up the heat (the british, the south, and the germans) all lost.  They turned up the heat out of fear rather than hope and they lost.


Fascinating.... (4.00 / 3)
You're all set to start writing alternative history, a budding sub-genre of SF, with this perspective.

Ya got on thing right. The ReThugs are the direct descendants of the Confederates.

The rest?

No so much.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
The Man In The High Castle (0.00 / 0)
A classic.

What's missing in the current instance, of course, is the key ingredient: Inner truth.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's no coincidence that they all have southern accents, (0.00 / 0)
contempt for brown people, and a strong aversion to fair play and level playing fields.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps when they turned up the heat (4.00 / 1)
We should have reached out to them with hope, instead of guns.

[ Parent ]
Oh yeah, (0.00 / 0)
I'm sure that the Nazis would have responded wonderfully to our offering of hope and good will.

This closing argument makes no damn sense at all.


[ Parent ]
Part of the arsenal (0.00 / 0)
I think that what Obama is saying is that Hope is a part of the arsenal of successful movements.  Nobody honestly believes that you "can get change just by hoping for it", but nobody honestly believes that you can enact change without hope, hard work and fighting for it.

Without the hope there is not will to work or to fight.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
I'm with Gandhi and Kos on this one... (0.00 / 0)

.....and Gandhi?

Hell of a better 'community organizer' than Ol' Barrack. If Mr. Harvard Law Review as half as clever ad he thinks he is he'd have us, netroots progressives, on his side.

But he's not so....

We're not.

Yeah, Gandhi and Kos....thas teh Ticket!

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
strange community (0.00 / 0)
The online community is a strange one that takes a different perspective and skill set to organize.  Frankly the Obama campaign has not prioritized the online community the same way they have prioritized other subsets of the American people.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


[ Parent ]
Because We're Better Informed, And Expect Real Answers To Our Questions (4.00 / 2)
Who needs that?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I think that we should have beaten them (0.00 / 0)
I think that we should have beaten them with angry rhetoric instead of guns.

Which is basically all your version of fighting amounts to.  And it does not have a record of success.


[ Parent ]
Chamberlain (4.00 / 3)
notoriously did reach out to the Nazis with hope, not guns, at Munich. They kept right on turning up the heat and marched into Poland.

I really distrust Obama's "hope" rhetoric. It strikes me as manipulative, naive, a-historical, and dishonest.


[ Parent ]
So, The GOP Started This War, Too! (0.00 / 0)
So, what's your point?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Or (0.00 / 0)
They turned up the heat, thinking that the colonists/north/US was weak and wouldn't fight back, all serious miscalculations, because the US didn't capitualte, did fight back, and proved to be much tougher than expected.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Reading the tea leaves (4.00 / 1)
The moment I finally decided I can't support obama (not that my individual vote matters a lot in late-game California, with my own activism run so fallow) was when I realized that every comment I saw about the man online was scrutinizing "what he actually meant."

I can appreciate the need to be a bit coy when it comes to policy: not going full-bore on single-payer, for instence, might actually help you achieve that in the end. And yet, I just can't get down with a presidential candidate who essentially wants to keep us all guessing at what they mean.

This actually disqualifies most of the major contenders, but Barak is the poster-child for the phenomenon IMHO.

What I'd prefer is a leader who expressed their objectives, and also a clear means for achieving them. That's not a 10-point plan (although that's probably part of it), but rather a coherent political strategy for implementing major policy goals in the face of a highly effective opposition party and weak (at best) majority support.

Heck, assuming better conditions, I'd still like to see an open and transparent agenda for implementing the big ideas. Not holding my breath though.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


Explanation for Chris: (0.00 / 0)
Hope is a slogan, not a philosophy of government. 

I, too, am disappointed in his choice of campaign theme.  I'd rather have a campaign platform of "Fair Trials for the War Criminals."  But that's just me. 

I was for Edwards most of this year, but Edwards never ignited.  Even if he pulls off Iowa, at this point, he failed to ignite the rest of the country, and he has no organization.

So, I find myself sanguine with the whole issue of politicians with bullshit themes.  For Bush, it was "Compassionate Conservatism."  What the fuck that ever meant, nobody knew, but it sounded nicer than "World Conquest by Any Means."  And Bill Clintons "Bridge to Tomorrow" still sounds like an empty pile of drivel. 


Bah! Eough byplay with the 'People of Hope' (0.00 / 0)
Gets damned boring after awhile arguing with folks who don't even know what their candidate has actually said.

Tell Matt to start a nice crackling Ron Paul thread. Now there is a guy with some high hopes!

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


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