Intra-Party Coalition Questions

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:55


Looking at exit polls from Iowa, New Hampshire and Michigan, I am left with several questions about the coalition many of the candidates seem to be building:

  • In all three states, Clinton lost the under 40 vote, but won the over 60 vote. Considering the amounts involved in these swings, sometimes as much as 30%, age is shaping up to be an even bigger divide in the Democratic primary than gender. Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?

  • In all three states, McCain has done better with voters who say they are either "dissatisfied" or "angry" with the Bush administration. He has lost those who are "satisfied" or "enthusiastic" with the Bush administration in all three states. If McCain has really made his comeback on the surge, then why are his voters so unhappy with Bush? Also, he has also virtually swept newspaper endorsements. Would McCain have any chance at all without the established media?

  • Ron Paul does much better among younger voters, and among those who are "angry" with the Bush administration. In fact, if you are a young Republican who is "angry" with the Bush administration, you seem almost guaranteed to be a Ron Paul supporter. Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?

  • There does not appear to be any divide in the Democratic primary between union members and non-union members. As such, do union endorsements mean anything outside of the resources they provide for campaigns?

  • There is simultaneously an income gap, education gap, and race gap in the Democratic primary. Lower income, lower education voters prefer Clinton, while African-American voters prefer Obama. This means that Clinton is really racking it up among low-income, working class whites. Why is this, and why isn't Edwards doing better among this group?

Anyway, I have to run, but these and other questions about the emerging coalitions in the primary are very interesting. A lengthy primary campaign should provide us with continuing insights to the intra-party coalitions for both Democrats and Republicans, something we have lacked for quite some time the recent string of primary season blowouts.

Chris Bowers :: Intra-Party Coalition Questions

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My little theories. (0.00 / 0)
Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?
I see it as a rebellious thing -- the scene kids and the punkrock kids can't be see hanging around with Clinton, but Obama is cool because he's young and hip and fires up crowds.

Or, more simply put, young people are more emotionally-driven, and that bodes well for Obama who uses rhetorical speech as opposed to, y'know, what Clinton does.

Would McCain have any chance at all without the established media?
Yes, I think he would. Republicans see him as a military man that can ward off Democrats but at the same time a uniter. Very appealing in a "change" election.

Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?
This is a little iffy. I think the ideology of young people is changing (more libertarian), however, I don't think this'll stick in the Republican Party. Every single one of my friends that is a Ron Paul supports has the second choice of Obama.

As such, do union endorsements mean anything outside of the resources they provide for campaigns?
Nope. And it's about time.

Why is this, and why isn't Edwards doing better among this group?
I think low-education voters see the name "Clinton" and think back to how good the Clinton years were. Clinton helped the economy soar in the nineties, maybe Clinton will do it again for this decade.

younger Democrats = under 40 (0.00 / 0)
reducing younder dems to "scene kids" and "punkrocks kids" is really narrow.  The chunk between 30 and 40 would hardly be classified this way -  they have jobs, kids, mortgages.

I see it more as an internet thing.  Under 40's are more likey to hear/discuss politics on "the internets".  Therefore they are not relying solely on the MSM for all their political information.


[ Parent ]
Bush, Clinton, Bush, ... Clinton? (0.00 / 0)
The younger crowd have only seen Bush(es) and Clinton in office.  To them, Clinton probably seems like a continuation of what they've always known.  Obama represents a strong break from the past.

More importantly, younger people are always more optimistic than older people.  For example, even in the 60's polls showed those in their twenties were more optimistic about Vietnam than other generations.  (That shocked me when I learned that.)  Older people are just more cynical.


[ Parent ]
Bingo! (0.00 / 0)
"'Why is this, and why isn't Edwards doing better among this group?'

I think low-education voters see the name "Clinton" and think back to how good the Clinton years were. Clinton helped the economy soar in the nineties, maybe Clinton will do it again for this decade."

Low info voters have almost no way of absorbing anything about Edwards's campaign.  Outside of his haircut and his wife's cancer, he hasn't had any media coverage.  The low-info voter only remembers him as Kerry's failed VP candidate.

I have heard a lot of blue collar types say they fall into the Clinton camp because of their fond memories of the 90's economy.  They just don't have the information to understand that Bill's policies in many ways laid the groundwork for their current economic malaise and that Hillary is surrounding herself with the same sorts of people.


[ Parent ]
I'd say rather (0.00 / 0)
--Older women are more attracted to Hillary because of the discrimination they faced in their own lives, vs younger women.

--Many younger people see the Clintons as soooo 20th Century, if not as old fogeys.  Really.  I remember in the early 1980's when my niece referred to "The Lovin' Spoonful" as old fogey music.  I couldn't believe it.  But anything 16 years old is old.  (She is now in her late '30s and supports Obama.)

--The folks who became GOP supporters in the 1980s and 1990s were reacting to what they perceived as liberal orthodoxy, especially in the colleges and universities.  They saw themselves as cool rebels.  Really.  Now, after all these years of (incompetent) GOP rule and the debacle that is the Bush/Cheney regime, that stance doesn't seem quite so cool and rebellious.  Younger GOPers are libertarians and react against the theocons or they are Jesus Campers who love Huckabee.  This guarantees more years of internal strife for them.

--Edwards has been at it for so long that he doesn't sound fresh any more.  He also needs to talk more about where we are going, not just what's and who's wrong.  I don't mean in the sense of specific proposals but broad themes.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
If Hillary does win (0.00 / 0)
and I'll admit she's a bit of the favorite at this point, she'll be crazy not to put Obama on the ticket.  Their two coalitions together, it seems to me, would crush the GOP and solve virtually all her down ticket problems.  Maybe even give us a shot at close to 60 votes in the senate.

The Politics of Bruno S.


Especially, dear God, If Romney get the nood (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Some simple explanations (0.00 / 0)
1) "Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?"

Perhaps the younger voters can identify with the kind of criticism leveled at Obama - inexperienced, too idealistic, etc. - because they hear the same kind of criticism about their own ideas and plans. 

I think the older folks are more open to the idea that experience actually means something and they see Clinton as already having been "tested" in a sense.

2) "If McCain has really made his comeback on the surge, then why are his voters so unhappy with Bush?" Maybe because they read Tom Friedman and his ilk?  They are upset with GWB because he took a the "good idea" of toppling Saddam Hussein and implementing a "democracy" in Iraq, and ruined it by handing the reigns over to Rumsfeld and Bremer.  Meanwhile, McCain has pretty much always advocated using far more soldiers than Bush actually committed (its unimportant whether the US military actually HAS that many soldiers - its all a hypothetical situation).  So, McCain can spin the issue to make himself look like a "better" version of Bush.

3) "Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?"  Not really.  I don't think the Paul supporters will become dedicated Republicans - they'll stick with the Libertarians, or go back to their militia groups.

4) "As such, do union endorsements mean anything outside of the resources they provide for campaigns?"  Not much.  Sad as it may be, the political, economic, and social power of the US labor unions has been seriously degraded.

5) I have no idea. But one thing is very clear - logic doesn't seem to have much to do with the way many people vote.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


I do not know why no one is talking about it, but I am sorry, (4.00 / 1)
Hillary Rodham Clinton "winning" with FORTY PERCENT UNCOMMITTED is astonishing.

I think the media won't talk about it because they have no idea what this means.  C'mon, to people who are involved in the numbers thing for real campaigns, this is amazing.

40% of people that had gone to vote in SNOW went expressly to vote for "uncommitted."  Hillary has problems.  I thought that number would be half what it was.

Think about how hard it is to get people to vote.  And anyone (most people here) who have ran campaigns or headed up GOTV efforts can attest that even when people are energized many still don't vote.  Yet many many many people went to the polls in snow in Michigan in the middle of winter to vote uncommitted against Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Anyone who says this is over - for Hillary - is mistaken.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


It took real commitment (4.00 / 1)
to be "uncommitted" in MI!

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
HA! But, YES! Exactly. People must be pissed at her OR (0.00 / 0)
really truly want ABC, anyone but clinton.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

[ Parent ]
Flip side (0.00 / 0)
55% went out in the SNOW expressly to vote for Hillary Clinton, even though she and Kucincih were the only two active canddiates on the ballot, and even though the press was saying her victory was a foregone conclusion.  That is pretty devoted to Hillary Clinton.
 

[ Parent ]
"That is pretty devoted to Hillary Clinton." (0.00 / 0)
That's pretty freudian coming from you, Kathy.  EXACTLY like YOU and the rest of the party establishment of NH were 'pretty devoted' to Hillary Clinton.

From what I am hearing, it's gonna take a while for you guys up there to heal the party because people are upset.

Let's not kid ourselves, it was the party establishment in NH that "ensured" Hillary's win.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


[ Parent ]
? (4.00 / 1)
I think it was the 39% of the NH Demcoratic primary voters who were responsible for Hillary's win. 

[ Parent ]
What I wonder (0.00 / 0)
Ron Paul does much better among younger voters, and among those who are "angry" with the Bush administration. In fact, if you are a young Republican who is "angry" with the Bush administration, you seem almost guaranteed to be a Ron Paul supporter. Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?

What I just can't help but wonder is this: Haven't all three primaries been either open or effectively open? So anyone who voted for Ron Paul in any of these primaries, technically, did not need to have been a registered Republican just the day before.

How many of these "young Republicans angry with the Bush Administration" were, in fact, Republicans before this primary race started? How many of them will continue to be Republicans after the nomination race is over and Ron Paul has gone nowhere, as opposed to reverting back to say "independents"? And do Ron Paul's results change any when we start having primaries that don't allow same-day voter registration/party shifts? (When do we start having such primaries?)

The thing about Ron Paul is that he bears so little resemblance to anything else in American public discourse-- Democrat, Republican or "Libertarian"-- that it seems difficult to conclude his supporters are in fact "Republicans" even if that's what they're registered as on the day of the primary.

On the other hand, maybe we can conclude that-- maybe all these people are Republicans now and Ron Paul has had the net effect of slowing the Democratic realignment, since some block of young Republicans angry at Bush who might have stopped being Republicans altogether at about this point are now staying within the party as "Ron Paul Republicans"?


The libertarian as adolescent (4.00 / 1)
The common stereotype of a Randian Libertarian is the nerdy fifteen-year-old boy.  While stereotypes generally mean little, I do think Libertarianism seems to be a young person's bag.  It is a utopian system for idealistic conservatives.  Most people become less idealistic as they age, so the demographics seem to confirm the basics of the stereotype.  I think most Ron Paul supporters will become your standard fiscal conservative Republicans, especially when they get old enough to take advantage of our current system which is skewed towards ambitious and greedy white men.

[ Parent ]
On McCain (0.00 / 0)
The answer to this is easy. He was always going to grab votes from the dissatisfied crowd. But the reason he's relevant is because of establishment support. and they're supporting him again because his support of the surge doesn't look nearly as foolish as it did when he first advocated it. So with increase credibility and a weak field, he got new life. The surge isn't about which crowd should be supporting him. Its about his credibility with the powers that be.

I think there is a common thread.... (4.00 / 1)
...that runs through the young/old divide in both parties, and that common thread is libertarian in nature. The inclusiveness of the Obama message, coupled with his percieved relative vagueness on specific policy proposals, is appealing to the rugged individualists of the party. His candidness about his youthful indiscretions also plays into this. In this regard, he stands in contrast to Clinton, who as the DLC candidate, tends to invoke the kinds of intrusive notions of social engineering and family concerns (school uniforms, anti smoking campaigns, violent video games, record warning labels, etc.) that drive freedom minded individualists crazy. 

Gee I thought Obama appealed to (0.00 / 0)
the idealists and communitarians in the younger demographic.  Not so much rugged individualists so much as people who think a safety net might be a good idea after all.  But I agree about the school uniforms and V-chips.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
The Easy One(s) (4.00 / 1)
In all three states, Clinton lost the under 40 vote, but won the over 60 vote. Considering the amounts involved in these swings, sometimes as much as 30%, age is shaping up to be an even bigger divide in the Democratic primary than gender. Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?

Clinton is the brand name Democrat for older voters. Kennedy and Carter are only possible alternatives, and aside from them going back a ways, you don't see anyone with those last names running.

OTOH, Obama has, like, totally captured the young/cool/vibe thing.  American Idol, indeed.

Would McCain have any chance at all without the established media?

No.

Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?

Possibly, but... Remember how quickly the militias faded away, once the Versaillles Republicans figured out how to channel their anger?  I'm thinking this is more like another wave of something already present, and David Niewart at Orcinus and Political Research Associates are the places to look for insight into this.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


Youth and low-income (4.00 / 1)
People hate the Clintons and Hillary in particular but compared to Bush/Cheney, I play it safe. Obama has a brand new vision on the scale of Bill Gates' and he looked sad in the debate last night because many of us have shot it down without knowing what it's about. They all looked sad and tired from the race gender fight. I've seen world polls in which Obama and Ron Paul are the number one choices because they would produce the most change. I gave my dad Audacity of Hope for Christmas a year ago. He said Obama is very impressive and brilliant and would make a great President but right now, I prefer what's known to something brand new because it's safer. Long story short, Millenials are sick of Democrat-Republican gridlock and want to do things their own way i.e. the Third Way. Obama has an exciting new vision for the world.

Low-income, working class whites assume a woman will tend to their needs and looking at her progressive scorecard, she does very well on domestic issues. Obama does too, actually, with four perfect scores, one is in housing. Edwards did well in the debate last night and it was great the general public is finally seeing what he's about. It was the best debate ever because of the roundtable format. 

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


Obama and Ron Paul lead the world (0.00 / 0)
in the Who Would The World Elect Poll.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.

We've Been Burned by a Man from Hope (0.00 / 0)
In all three states, Clinton lost the under 40 vote, but won the over 60 vote. Considering the amounts involved in these swings, sometimes as much as 30%, age is shaping up to be an even bigger divide in the Democratic primary than gender. Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?

I think it has much to do with older voters remembering the last time we had a campaign featuring Hope--Clinton in 1991, which was sixteen years ago.  In the under 30 cohort, most are too young to remember in any critical sense the promise that Clinton held.  He ran as a liberal: universal health care, increased funding for schools, a 'peace dividend' (remember that?), and a progressive tax code.  Many of his promises went un- or underfunded.  The great liberal Hope turned out to be a Rockfeller Republican.  Obama's rhetoric is frighteningly similar.  There have to be specifics; we're not getting burned twice.


responses (0.00 / 0)
  * Why do older and younger Democrats have such sharply divided preferences of Clinton and Obama?

Because younger and older people are different.  The older generation believes that you stick with a company, people my age in my profession tend to stay about 1.5 years with a company, etc, etc.

  * Would McCain have any chance at all without the established media?

Sure, but that isn't saying much.

  * Is there a new generation of Republicans coming through the ranks that is very different from the current generation?

Not any more so than any other group.  Our society is vastly different than it was 40 years ago.

  * As such, do union endorsements mean anything outside of the resources they provide for campaigns? 

Sure, but not very much.  As dean showed you don't have the power. 

  * Why is this, and why isn't Edwards doing better among this group?

Edwards has absolutely nothing in common with the disadvantaged lower income workers.  Heres a hint, neither do bloggers.


Clues to young voters (0.00 / 0)
I was at a drinking liberally on NH night and there were a bunch of people there.  I was asking people if they knew where their caucus (colorado) was and then giving them information on how to do it.  I spoke with a bunch of young (college age) Obama supporters who were low information (what's the difference between a caucus and a primary ?) but  very enthusiastic. One of them said, "we assume that Washington is hopelessly corrupt, but that Obama may be able to change that"
It made sense to me (in terms of his appeal, not that I agree).  What has happened since Health Care was stopped under Clinton has all been clusterfucks from 911 to Iraq, Katrina, the jobless economy, healthcare getting worse etc.  These low information people believe that Obama can change this.  (not that I agree but I understand.)

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